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United States9947 Posts
On November 05 2024 04:37 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 01:44 FlaShFTW wrote:Here's my final 2024 prediction map. The key: Light shade = <2%, Medium Shade = 2-5%, and Dark shade = >5%. I'm going to choose to believe the Selzer poll, but not entirely. I think Trump is going to outperform the remaining undecided voter there and it's going to be another Bush vs Kerry 2004 incident where Kerry barely lost the state. I think this will also signal other states like NC and GA that they will fall for Harris, which I predict will roughly be +1.5% Harris when all is said and done. Some other notables, the Selzer poll also would signal some more competitive races in Florida and Texas, which I expect to become closer this year than previous years, with both predicted to be +4% Trump. Rust Belt should go to Harris +3% or so. Nevada and Arizona are on the cusp at around 2%. Bellweathers for tomorrow: Virginia. I fully expect Harris to win this state by over 5 points, and an early call like in 2020 is going to be good news for her. Anything after 8-9pm ET, and Harris is going to be in for a long night. Also pay special attention to Ohio. Trump won the state +9 in 2020, but more polls have shown him around only +6-7 points. While I do expect Ohio to be called early, I think it's worth looking at the state for some bellweather forecast on the Rust Belt. Very generous giving Harris every swing state, esp Arizona, Georgia, and NC. Every Biden state + NC? Doubt it. Even Nevada is tenuous, though it's another GOP white whale so that's fine. I think he wins GA/AZ and would only need one of MI/WI/PA (in reverse likelihood). I'd rather be him than her. Senate, GOP +3-5. WV, MT, Ohio. Again one of MI/WI/PA would be a great bonus. Doubt Lake gets there but it depends on how much Trump wins by. House goes the way of the presidency...not sure on this one, might go the way of the popular vote winner, but very narrow either way possible.
Don't need to say much other than thinking Lake has a chance is laughable. There's no situation where I'd rather be Trump than Harris going into this election. Trump doesn't really have a path to an EC landslide while Harris does, which makes me put her as the favorite right now.
House is going to be close regardless unless we see a blue wave with Harris winning a strong EC victory, because of how gerrymandered the House is (Republicans traditionally outperform the popular vote in the house).
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Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On November 06 2024 03:01 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:47 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. GH has just arrived at his house. He noticed his neighbours’s car is upside down and in flames, it subsequently explodes sending shrapnel everywhere, indeed unfortunately a fragment fatally embeds itself in a beloved neighbourhood cat. His immediate response is ‘Hm, this isn’t ideal’ . Ok probably not his response, mine. The shitter a situation gets the more neutral I go. A mere minor setback is ‘fuck me this entire universe is fucking hateful’, where a potentially life-changing setback is ‘Hm… this isn’t ideal’ anyway, moving on. Upon which the neighbourhood just descends upon him, demanding he has concrete answers on how to prevent cars exploding, or how to protect cats from shrapnel. Incidentally a question they pose to nobody else. To continue this tortuous analogy, people are just perpetually angry at GH for noticing and acknowledging that cars exploding and killing cats is kinda not desirable because he doesn’t have answers they like. He becomes a pariah in the neighbourhood Is this really how you look at the situation? Do you think perhaps there is a step where people offer solutions on how to stop cars exploding or explain to him why the car exploded? Gh in this analogy is the guy telling everyone we need to stop using cars and the world continuing to use cars makes you responsible for car killing. People ask him how the world is going to function tomorrow when they need to get to work and gh accuses them of not having a red line at dead cats.
To cut through my nonsense analogies, I think people should be free to not transgress their own moral red lines. I think that’s much more a cornerstone of genuine democracy that lesser evilism. If your chances of victory can’t accommodate it, that’s on your platform.
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On November 06 2024 02:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense...
He was president for 4 years! If you had no ability to read the news and magically couldn't discuss politics with people would you have even noticed he was? And in a way that endangered you??
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On November 06 2024 03:14 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense... He was president for 4 years! If you had no ability to read the news and magically couldn't discuss politics with people would you have even noticed he was? And in a way that endangered you??
If you have a level of privilege that his policies and his Supreme Court don't affect you, congratulations. I guarantee you know people that are impacted by his presidency, for the worse. We all do.
We see new stories every week of pregnant women dying because they can't get medical care anymore. You have to have your head in a cloud to not see that it hurts someone. It just doesn't hurt you personally, so you're fine with it. "Not the end of the world."
GH is right, at least you voted for Stein and not Trump.
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On November 06 2024 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:43 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July). I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want Your post literally sympathizes with Trump, where you wrote that he's being treated unfairly and that he's undeserving of the criticism he gets. That's not the same thing as saying you support Trump for president lol.
Wow. Can you explain what is so wrong with being able to sympathize with people I disagree with? What is the point of saying I'm a Trump sympathizer? If I don't support him, my sympathy towards him is only a result of my honest opinion that he was treated unfairly. Explain why that is so abhorrent to you
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On November 06 2024 03:14 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense... He was president for 4 years! If you had no ability to read the news and magically couldn't discuss politics with people would you have even noticed he was? And in a way that endangered you??
To answer your two questions:
1. Yes
2. Yes
I don't really think we need to relitigate how terrible his presidency was, especially when it came to handling covid and how he endangered everyone, and how toxic and influential he's been over the past 8 years (both as president and as non-president) when it comes to protecting people's rights and treating different demographics with dignity. I'm privileged enough to be a straight white guy in a blue state, where I'm not tormented based on my sexual orientation or race or gender, and where my wife's right to an abortion is still safe, but we know full well the additional damage that can be done with a second Trump term, especially if it comes with a Republican-controlled Congress (such as nationwide bans on abortion or gay marriage that would overrule state protections). Even if a Trump policy weren't to directly hurt me, it could still hurt my friends or family or other Americans.
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On November 06 2024 02:41 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:27 RvB wrote:
When will we start getting results from the election? When the polls start closing, which is like most things in American politics completely different by State and seemingly random. Found this map though! https://www.270towin.com/poll-closing-times
On November 06 2024 02:42 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:27 RvB wrote:
When will we start getting results from the election? Polls on the East Coast start closing around 7 p.m. EST so I would expect too see the first estimates around that time. California closes 4 hours later.
Thanks!
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On November 06 2024 03:20 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:43 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July). I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want Your post literally sympathizes with Trump, where you wrote that he's being treated unfairly and that he's undeserving of the criticism he gets. That's not the same thing as saying you support Trump for president lol. Wow. Can you explain what is so wrong with being able to sympathize with people I disagree with? What is the point of saying I'm a Trump sympathizer? If I don't support him, my sympathy towards him is only a result of my honest opinion that he was treated unfairly. Explain why that is so abhorrent to you
It doesn't seem like you disagree with Trump that much if you find he doesn't deserve the criticism he gets. He's essentially a walking manifestation of all of America's systemic bigotry and bias, and put it on full display with no filter in his first 4 years. If, after those 4 years, you think Trump is the victim here, then yes, I question why you sympathize with him.
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On November 06 2024 03:19 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 03:14 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense... He was president for 4 years! If you had no ability to read the news and magically couldn't discuss politics with people would you have even noticed he was? And in a way that endangered you?? If you have a level of privilege that his policies and his Supreme Court don't affect you, congratulations. I guarantee you know people that are impacted by his presidency, for the worse. We all do. We see new stories every week of pregnant women dying because they can't get medical care anymore. You have to have your head in a cloud to not see that it hurts someone. It just doesn't hurt you personally, so you're fine with it. "Not the end of the world." GH is right, at least you voted for Stein and not Trump.
I ask this in good faith because I am not in the know - what state has abortion policies in place that deny abortion when it is best for the mother's health? I ask this in good faith despite, yes, being skeptical that this is the main consequence of Roe being reversed. 96% of abortions are elective. I am pro-choice myself, but isn't it dishonest to say most Republicans are anti-choice regardless of the health outcomes for mother and baby? Imo being against elective abortions is pretty reasonable and at least comes from a genuine good spirited argument (from most people). I tend to think the abortion issue is quite strange in the US because it is both sides using extremely rare edge cases to demonize and accuse the other side of being radical on the issue
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On November 06 2024 03:29 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 03:19 NewSunshine wrote:On November 06 2024 03:14 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense... He was president for 4 years! If you had no ability to read the news and magically couldn't discuss politics with people would you have even noticed he was? And in a way that endangered you?? If you have a level of privilege that his policies and his Supreme Court don't affect you, congratulations. I guarantee you know people that are impacted by his presidency, for the worse. We all do. We see new stories every week of pregnant women dying because they can't get medical care anymore. You have to have your head in a cloud to not see that it hurts someone. It just doesn't hurt you personally, so you're fine with it. "Not the end of the world." GH is right, at least you voted for Stein and not Trump. I ask this in good faith because I am not in the know - what state has abortion policies in place that deny abortion when it is best for the mother's health? I ask this in good faith despite, yes, being skeptical that this is the main consequence of Roe being reversed. 96% of abortions are elective. I am pro-choice myself, but isn't it dishonest to say most Republicans are anti-choice regardless of the health outcomes for mother and baby? Imo being against elective abortions is pretty reasonable and at least comes from a genuine good spirited argument (from most people). I tend to think the abortion issue is quite strange in the US because it is both sides using extremely rare edge cases to demonize and accuse the other side of being radical on the issue
Every state has exceptions for life of the mother and no state classifies things other than actually terminating the fetus as "abortion."
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On November 06 2024 03:29 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 03:19 NewSunshine wrote:On November 06 2024 03:14 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense... He was president for 4 years! If you had no ability to read the news and magically couldn't discuss politics with people would you have even noticed he was? And in a way that endangered you?? If you have a level of privilege that his policies and his Supreme Court don't affect you, congratulations. I guarantee you know people that are impacted by his presidency, for the worse. We all do. We see new stories every week of pregnant women dying because they can't get medical care anymore. You have to have your head in a cloud to not see that it hurts someone. It just doesn't hurt you personally, so you're fine with it. "Not the end of the world." GH is right, at least you voted for Stein and not Trump. I ask this in good faith because I am not in the know - what state has abortion policies in place that deny abortion when it is best for the mother's health? I ask this in good faith despite, yes, being skeptical that this is the main consequence of Roe being reversed. 96% of abortions are elective. I am pro-choice myself, but isn't it dishonest to say most Republicans are anti-choice regardless of the health outcomes for mother and baby? Imo being against elective abortions is pretty reasonable and at least comes from a genuine good spirited argument (from most people). I tend to think the abortion issue is quite strange in the US because it is both sides using extremely rare edge cases to demonize and accuse the other side of being radical on the issue
On paper? None. In practice? Type the word "pregnant" into your Google search bar, the first result right now is "pregnant teen dies in Texas after attempting to visit 3 different ER's." I'm intentionally withholding some of the more gruesome details, but check it out.
It's the arch-case of law written by Republicans, in a way that's vague enough that forces doctors to abstain from medical care for fear of prosecution. "The best health interest of the mother" is in name only.
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On November 06 2024 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 03:20 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:43 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July). I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want Your post literally sympathizes with Trump, where you wrote that he's being treated unfairly and that he's undeserving of the criticism he gets. That's not the same thing as saying you support Trump for president lol. Wow. Can you explain what is so wrong with being able to sympathize with people I disagree with? What is the point of saying I'm a Trump sympathizer? If I don't support him, my sympathy towards him is only a result of my honest opinion that he was treated unfairly. Explain why that is so abhorrent to you It doesn't seem like you disagree with Trump that much if you find he doesn't deserve the criticism he gets. He's essentially a walking manifestation of all of America's systemic bigotry and bias, and put it on full display with no filter in his first 4 years. If, after those 4 years, you think Trump is the victim here, then yes, I question why you sympathize with him.
You're right! I don't disagree with him on everything. I DO disagree with him on enough to not vote for him. I DO think he has been treated unfairly. I think a significant portion of why he has been and is a walking manifestation of evil is because that has been ascribed to him. I don't view him as Hitler 2.0, sorry
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On November 06 2024 02:53 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. I understand his strategy it's not that complex. He thinks punishing the democrats for not being enough against genocide in Gaza is justified. He doesn't understand that the punishment is the nation gets four years of trump. If your position that four years of trump is a good thing you cannot uphold leftists values. It's not logical to believe trump winning is a good outcome for leftists. Its not rational for a leftist to believe that trump winning is a good outcome. Just because you refuse to agnowedge the outcome of your decision doesn't absolve you of the responsibility your efforts made to get there.
GH understands perfectly well that, by not voting for Harris, the chance of a presidency going to Trump goes up. He knows that Harris losing equals to Trump winning. He's not stupid. He doesn't think Trump is good. He thinks the Palestinian cause is worth pushing Americans' faces in the dirt for four years. He thinks that might accomplish something, and that voting for Harris only further enables the genocide. I have provided a case for why Biden has been no good at preventing the genocide in Gaza, instead it's continuing - perhaps precisely because of Biden's soft and empty stance - and therefore we have no reason to believe Harris would do a better job. I can't fault people for prioritizing this single cause above all other causes.
Again, let me repeat: my strategy would be different. I don't subscribe to GH's strategy, because I think he ignores certain merit of voting for Harris. But I can't prove that. I'm using my intuitive reasoning, not perfect logic. There's a high chance that I'm overlooking various key factors, just as much as there's also a high chance GH is overlooking key factors, too. I can't prove that my reasoning is definitely the correct one, or that his reasoning is definitely incorrect. It's up to our intuition.
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On November 06 2024 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 03:29 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 03:19 NewSunshine wrote:On November 06 2024 03:14 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity.
The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris.
GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense... He was president for 4 years! If you had no ability to read the news and magically couldn't discuss politics with people would you have even noticed he was? And in a way that endangered you?? If you have a level of privilege that his policies and his Supreme Court don't affect you, congratulations. I guarantee you know people that are impacted by his presidency, for the worse. We all do. We see new stories every week of pregnant women dying because they can't get medical care anymore. You have to have your head in a cloud to not see that it hurts someone. It just doesn't hurt you personally, so you're fine with it. "Not the end of the world." GH is right, at least you voted for Stein and not Trump. I ask this in good faith because I am not in the know - what state has abortion policies in place that deny abortion when it is best for the mother's health? I ask this in good faith despite, yes, being skeptical that this is the main consequence of Roe being reversed. 96% of abortions are elective. I am pro-choice myself, but isn't it dishonest to say most Republicans are anti-choice regardless of the health outcomes for mother and baby? Imo being against elective abortions is pretty reasonable and at least comes from a genuine good spirited argument (from most people). I tend to think the abortion issue is quite strange in the US because it is both sides using extremely rare edge cases to demonize and accuse the other side of being radical on the issue On paper? None. In practice? Type the word "pregnant" into your Google search bar, the first result right now is "pregnant teen dies in Texas after attempting to visit 3 different ER's." I'm intentionally withholding some of the more gruesome details, but check it out. It's the arch-case of law written by Republicans, in a way that's vague enough that forces doctors to abstain from medical care for fear of prosecution. "The best health interest of the mother" is in name only.
That's a good answer + argument  makes sense to me
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On November 06 2024 03:20 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:43 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July). I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want Your post literally sympathizes with Trump, where you wrote that he's being treated unfairly and that he's undeserving of the criticism he gets. That's not the same thing as saying you support Trump for president lol. Wow. Can you explain what is so wrong with being able to sympathize with people I disagree with? What is the point of saying I'm a Trump sympathizer? If I don't support him, my sympathy towards him is only a result of my honest opinion that he was treated unfairly. Explain why that is so abhorrent to you
You're unable to justify why you think Trump loves this country*, you're unwilling to explain why you think Trump deserves a second third hundredth millionth extra chance, and you've trivialized his past 8 years of political influence by saying that his presidency didn't really affect much and that it won't be a big deal if he wins again. The Supreme Court disagrees with you. So do women. So do people of color. So does the LGBTQ+ community. So do Muslims. So do Jews. So do a lot of other people.
*Given how selfish and opportunistic he is, the only reason why I think Trump loves this country is because the United States doesn't hold him accountable for his lifetime of immoral and illegal deeds.
My issue with your sympathy of Trump is that it's coming from a place of denial, not even just ignorance. The criticism he gets is well-deserved. The names he's been called - toxic, fascist, rapist, racist, sexist, felon - are accurate. You're providing cover for a terrible human being by accusing others of being mean to him.
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On November 06 2024 03:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 03:20 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:43 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July). I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want Your post literally sympathizes with Trump, where you wrote that he's being treated unfairly and that he's undeserving of the criticism he gets. That's not the same thing as saying you support Trump for president lol. Wow. Can you explain what is so wrong with being able to sympathize with people I disagree with? What is the point of saying I'm a Trump sympathizer? If I don't support him, my sympathy towards him is only a result of my honest opinion that he was treated unfairly. Explain why that is so abhorrent to you You're unable to justify why you think Trump loves this country*, you're unwilling to explain why you think Trump deserves a second third hundredth millionth extra chance, and you've trivialized his past 8 years of political influence by saying that his presidency didn't really affect much and that it won't be a big deal if he wins again. The Supreme Court disagrees with you. So do women. So do people of color. So does the LGBTQ+ community. So do Muslims. So do Jews. So do a lot of other people. *Given how selfish and opportunistic he is, the only reason why I think Trump loves this country is because the United States doesn't hold him accountable for his lifetime of immoral and illegal deeds. My issue with your sympathy of Trump is that it's coming from a place of denial, not even just ignorance. The criticism he gets is well-deserved. The names he's been called - toxic, fascist, rapist, racist, sexist, felon - are accurate. You're providing cover for a terrible human being by accusing others of being mean to him.
I'm not unable to, I just am lazy to, don't feel the need to spend a lot of time defending someone I generally net disagree with, don't spend like spending my time arguing with people on the internet who are so entrenched in their position and, to be honest, sound like antagonistic assholes
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On November 06 2024 03:40 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 03:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 03:20 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:43 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July). I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want Your post literally sympathizes with Trump, where you wrote that he's being treated unfairly and that he's undeserving of the criticism he gets. That's not the same thing as saying you support Trump for president lol. Wow. Can you explain what is so wrong with being able to sympathize with people I disagree with? What is the point of saying I'm a Trump sympathizer? If I don't support him, my sympathy towards him is only a result of my honest opinion that he was treated unfairly. Explain why that is so abhorrent to you You're unable to justify why you think Trump loves this country*, you're unwilling to explain why you think Trump deserves a second third hundredth millionth extra chance, and you've trivialized his past 8 years of political influence by saying that his presidency didn't really affect much and that it won't be a big deal if he wins again. The Supreme Court disagrees with you. So do women. So do people of color. So does the LGBTQ+ community. So do Muslims. So do Jews. So do a lot of other people. *Given how selfish and opportunistic he is, the only reason why I think Trump loves this country is because the United States doesn't hold him accountable for his lifetime of immoral and illegal deeds. My issue with your sympathy of Trump is that it's coming from a place of denial, not even just ignorance. The criticism he gets is well-deserved. The names he's been called - toxic, fascist, rapist, racist, sexist, felon - are accurate. You're providing cover for a terrible human being by accusing others of being mean to him. I'm not unable to, I just am lazy to, don't feel the need to spend a lot of time defending someone I generally net disagree with, don't spend like spending my time arguing with people on the internet who are so entrenched in their position and, to be honest, sound like antagonistic assholes
Okay. Just don't be surprised or super defensive when you say something, refuse to elaborate or clarify or defend it, and then get called out for it 
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Bisutopia19141 Posts
On November 06 2024 03:14 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense... He was president for 4 years! If you had no ability to read the news and magically couldn't discuss politics with people would you have even noticed he was? And in a way that endangered you??
Dude, I generally understand where you are coming from, but this last one is not a good point lol. He was president during Covid in which lockdowns were a thing that affected the entire country. Whether you believe in the lockdowns or not, it did affect your safety as a direct result of Trump’s actions and ignoring news would not have stopped this from affecting you.
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On November 06 2024 03:40 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 03:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 03:20 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:43 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July). I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want Your post literally sympathizes with Trump, where you wrote that he's being treated unfairly and that he's undeserving of the criticism he gets. That's not the same thing as saying you support Trump for president lol. Wow. Can you explain what is so wrong with being able to sympathize with people I disagree with? What is the point of saying I'm a Trump sympathizer? If I don't support him, my sympathy towards him is only a result of my honest opinion that he was treated unfairly. Explain why that is so abhorrent to you You're unable to justify why you think Trump loves this country*, you're unwilling to explain why you think Trump deserves a second third hundredth millionth extra chance, and you've trivialized his past 8 years of political influence by saying that his presidency didn't really affect much and that it won't be a big deal if he wins again. The Supreme Court disagrees with you. So do women. So do people of color. So does the LGBTQ+ community. So do Muslims. So do Jews. So do a lot of other people. *Given how selfish and opportunistic he is, the only reason why I think Trump loves this country is because the United States doesn't hold him accountable for his lifetime of immoral and illegal deeds. My issue with your sympathy of Trump is that it's coming from a place of denial, not even just ignorance. The criticism he gets is well-deserved. The names he's been called - toxic, fascist, rapist, racist, sexist, felon - are accurate. You're providing cover for a terrible human being by accusing others of being mean to him. I'm not unable to, I just am lazy to, don't feel the need to spend a lot of time defending someone I generally net disagree with, don't spend like spending my time arguing with people on the internet who are so entrenched in their position and, to be honest, sound like antagonistic assholes
You're relatively new in this thread, right? I don't think you can call people "entrenched" if you don't know what got them to that point. It's not a fair assessment. We've formed our views over a long period of time. Trump's been the talking point for the last eight years plus. We know who he is. So if you want to say that people aren't judging him fairly, I'll have to say you don't know the people here. You weren't here when people were discussing Trump. You don't know how much knowledge people here have about Trump.
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United States9947 Posts
Pre-polls closing news:
It looks like turnout is going to be very strong this election, notably in swing states like PA and MI so far.
Iowa's early vote also showing some very strong early vote, as well as women +10 over men in that department (55-45), which actually is very on par with Selzer's poll. Things to come, but so far things are looking reasonably good for Democrats. Way too early to call anything though, but these are my early findings. Still a long way to go before polls close. Stay tuned. I plan to go live on Twitch around 7:30pm ET if anyone is going to be following.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/722946752193232968/1303034648678371389/xjDYi17.png?ex=672a4915&is=6728f795&hm=687860fd54eee85bd1a57ff7d8a667e3c2450a469a3744642c00dc7f07ef7316&)
