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On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). For context (emphasis mine): Show nested quote +On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed?
Stein voters are generally people who feel powerless and resentful. Its more of a middle finger than a vote. Someone trying to broadcast their Stein support and making sure people to mention PA is just the usual attention seeking. I am not talking about policy or ethics or whatever. I am saying the sort of person who makes that post will not provide worthwhile conversation
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Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On November 06 2024 02:20 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:17 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 02:02 Sermokala wrote:On November 06 2024 01:21 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 01:11 Sermokala wrote:
People who believe in a flat earth have a different theory about how physics works than me but that doesn't make it legitimate. If your theory of change is to punish the democrats by helping trump get elected, then the outcome of your theory of change is that trump getting elected is a better outcome than Harris getting elected. You don't get to absolve yourself of the consequences of your actions by declaring the moral superiority of your actions. Trump winning may not be the end of the world for you but that doesn't mean there are no consequences for a trump victory. If your theory is I have certain red lines and I won’t vote for you if you cross them, that’s a different kettle of fish. GH has expressed no desire to get Trump elected or punish Democrats You could throw the most desperate singleton going, perhaps approaching incel land two particularly unappealing partnership prospects and they’re not obligated to go for either. They can just say nah I’m ok being single for now Ultimately the 20-40% of non politically engaged folks who couldn’t be arsed voting are a considerably bigger concern than a GH type Just because you don't have a desire for an outcome doesn't change the responsibility for the outcome your actions cause. Gh has constantly shamed democrats and people who support harris for voting for her. In a binary choice persuading people not to vote for one is material support for the opposite. The outcome of the election is going to come if you chose an option or not. Not voting doesn't change someone winning the vote. You don't get to absolve yourself of the consequences of your decision by declaring yourself morally better than the two choices before you. I don’t think it’s all that big of a deal. Perhaps the left could learn something from Republicans. The Tea Party didn’t just appear from electoralism, it came from groundwork. And whatever the fuck we have now is just an evolution of that. Roe vs Wade being actually repealed was pretty unfathomable 15 years back. Did your preferred candidate actually have a chance in a general? Elect them anyway in the primary. Sure it took a while but they got there in the end. The Dems continually compromise for ‘electability’ and when it doesn’t work out they blame GH for it. Hey I find them an absolute bunch of bollocking ball bags but look at what the right’s actually achieved in the last 10-15 years. It’s fucking night and day. The difference probably is that the far right actually had enough people to force the Republican party to follow them. There are not enough progressives to do the same to the Democrats. to take over the party like the Tea Party did actually requires you to win primaries. If Progressives can't do that then they either need to work harder to turning more people into progressives or accept that they are a small minority not worth catering to.
I’d guesstimate there’s about as many left equivalents, at least as there are dyed in the wool Tea Party types in the States
One dragged the party to their will, the other did not.
Perhaps such progressive types are more willing to compromise, and thus weaken their hand.
Perhaps it’s a party apparatus visibly willing to work against the progressive candidate and all the associated morale drop that that entails.
Perhaps it’s a combination of that plus other factors.
End of the day the Tea Party and their heirs have been far more effective in pulling the GOP over than a comparable left wing axis has on the other side.
Perhaps to pardon my French, the Tea Party had some fucking giant balls and forced it.
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On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union.
GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong.
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On November 06 2024 00:45 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:41 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 23:10 farvacola wrote:
Friends in NE and Central Ohio reported crazy lines first thing this morning. Already voted early here in Virginia. It is crazy how it is allowed to make it more difficult to vote (like less stations) in certain parts than others, even in the same state. And how the person who picks where it all goes is partisan. It should be the same for all people in the US, you guys need some impartial federal group that runs these elections. I don't think impartial federal group even exists.
I don't think so either, it would need to be new. But having every state manage the federal election differently is a bad idea, worse when you know they are doing it in a partisan fashion (in both directions).
On November 06 2024 02:03 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:41 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 23:10 farvacola wrote:
Friends in NE and Central Ohio reported crazy lines first thing this morning. Already voted early here in Virginia. It is crazy how it is allowed to make it more difficult to vote (like less stations) in certain parts than others, even in the same state. And how the person who picks where it all goes is partisan. It should be the same for all people in the US, you guys need some impartial federal group that runs these elections. Voting is done by the states and if there were a motion for a federal oversight comittee to monitor elections half of the states (I'll let you guess which ones) would vote against it.
I'm sure the half would change depending on who set up the oversight committee. But at some point the country needs at least a little faith in someone, or some group to be "fair" where they can trust it even if the decision does not go their way.
On November 06 2024 00:49 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 22:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
There's definitely some kind of connection between fascism and genocide.
Can you commit genocide if you aren't fascist?
I don't know that you can. The wiping out of an ethnic group could just happen due to political convenience I suppose but if there's any ideology behind the genocide you're pretty much looking at fascism.
So I'd say that genocide is (usually) fascism, but fascism is not genocide. No, Fascism does not just mean bad. Neither does capitalism. First genocide existed long before the 1920's. Next you can look at current China and the USSR and see that communism is completely capable of genocide. Economic systems, political systems, hell religion (or not being religions) does not make evil/bad. That is simply human. This is why you get super evil far left and far right. The best systems require checks and balances so that the wrong person or small group can't seize the power and do evil things. Not to mention that the more power one has more evil they tend to get. This whole "our side is good" thing leads to just a lot of justifying of terrible, awful, horrific behavior. Russia, China, Iran, NK all have very different political systems and different economic systems. What they have in common is brutal dictatorships that are hell bent on not just oppressing their own people but rather as many as possible. I have no idea why you are saying this to me, I didn't make the claim that fascism=bad. Did you accidentally quote my post, or did you just completely fail to understand it? Fascism is often based on racial purity, and the designation of 'other' groups to blame for everything. This is what leads to genocide. Its almost a necessary step. The two are linked. It feels like you didn't read my whole post and just fixated on the one part you did not like. I was just guessing on why you think they are the same when there are plenty (maybe more or the same I have no added it up) of genocides that have nothing to do with fascism. On November 05 2024 22:50 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 22:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 22:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
There's definitely some kind of connection between fascism and genocide.
Can you commit genocide if you aren't fascist?
I don't know that you can. The wiping out of an ethnic group could just happen due to political convenience I suppose but if there's any ideology behind the genocide you're pretty much looking at fascism.
So I'd say that genocide is (usually) fascism, but fascism is not genocide. No, Fascism does not just mean bad. Neither does capitalism. First genocide existed long before the 1920's. Next you can look at current China and the USSR and see that communism is completely capable of genocide. Economic systems, political systems, hell religion (or not being religions) does not make evil/bad. That is simply human. This is why you get super evil far left and far right. The best systems require checks and balances so that the wrong person or small group can't seize the power and do evil things. Not to mention that the more power one has more evil they tend to get. This whole "our side is good" thing leads to just a lot of justifying of terrible, awful, horrific behavior. Russia, China, Iran, NK all have very different political systems and different economic systems. What they have in common is brutal dictatorships that are hell bent on not just oppressing their own people but rather as many as possible. On November 05 2024 22:04 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 21:55 Velr wrote:
No... For fucks sake.
Facism is a political system.
Genocide is an action taken by a state or group.
They describe totally diffrent things. Agreed, but also if anyone else was in GH's shoes they'd also occasionally oversimplify a point and say incorrect things if they were up against this level of abuse he faces in this thread on the regular by the same tiny well-protected self-righteous group of bullies. It's unacceptable what people are doing to him here and I've been so fed up with it because the only option GH and others have is to ignore the bullies - which should not be necessary. The bullies should be kicked out. If they actually kicked out all the bullies you would be gone too. What you want is the people who disagree with you to be kicked out, especially the ones who disagree with you the way you disagree with others. In your mind anyone's a bully who has an opposite view to yours. No, there are very few bullies here. But they hold power, and they target the same people all the time. You can agree with me on that without letting your bias shine through. Nope that is just you projecting. Bullies are people who respond with low or no content posts that are just insults or sarcasm. And I can find a ton of yours if you would really like. On November 05 2024 22:28 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2024 21:45 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 14:31 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2024 14:02 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 13:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 05 2024 13:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
It's obvious to me how Trump winning can lead to fascism, but how does Harris winning also lead to fascism? How is genocide not fascism to you? Genocide is completely separate from fascism, and not only because basically every political spectrum has done it including communist (even right now!) But because it existed long before fascism did. Next Russia is trying to speed run all the possible war crimes including genocide and Trump getting into power increases that one AS WELL AS what is going on in the middle east. And if you are one issue, anti fascism voter, then why would you be against the person "supporting fascism" compared to the actual fascist. And if you think Fascism and genocide are the same thing , then wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop the fascist from taking power of the worlds most powerful army? Red lines are red lines, despite what Barack Obama says Consider this hypothetical. You’ve dude A you really hate, dude B you really dislike but less Someone tells you you’re duty bound to have you wife or s/o banged by one of them. For the greater good. Hey B is slightly less shit Alternatively, you have the option of just leaving your wife or s/o to remain in glorious monogamy, untainted with such sordid machinations. I don’t see why this is so unfathomable to folks. GH considers it a non-negotiable issue, and provided neither party shifts to his position he’s not going to proffer his support to either. In a state where his vote is effectively meaningless anyway. Why is this so confusing? It is confusing because this has nothing to do with why fascism is genocide, which is just a completely wrong and nonsensical statement. There are so many bad statements made that people on the "left" feel obliged to defend. If it is bad or worse statement people need to start being against it whether or no matter what "side" they have branded themselves. As to your completely unrelated analogy, if it means stopping a fascist from taking over and trying to swap from a democracy to theocracy with oligarchs they can both bang my wife at the same time.  When stakes are high enough you have to make hard choices, there is nothing moralistic about dodging hard questions so you can be condescending. #Cucks4Harris I kid. I did feel it was a rather apt, albeit somewhat crude analogy Ultimately, I somewhat agree with GH’s rationale, some don’t. He’s at least somewhat politically engaged at least. Depending on what form of election, 30-50+% of folks don’t vote amongst most Western democracies, so hes got plenty of company. Hoping for a Harris/Waltz triumph over here anyway. That said if they don’t, my one and only election prediction is you will see a bucketload of moaning analysis and teeth gnashing blaming the left, or Arab Americans for not toeing the line. I can’t even find a bookmaker willing to take a bet on it! I have no problem with people voting for who they think would be their best person, regardless if they have any chance. I do have a problem with those in democracies who don't vote at all. My frustration (and likely others) is the constant judgement and moralizing. Then it becomes worse when his answer is utopia that he only has a concept of a plan about and wants all the people he relentlessly insults to help him come up with the details. You also got to either hate genocide or not, you can't really really hate it but when your team does it start finding excuses or not even believe what's obviously true. Pure insults and sarcasm are exactly the only content you'll find in the comments I'm talking about. You just choose to ignore it because apparently you don't like GH either. That is my point, you either have to be against all of it or none of it. I don't like it when "innocents" get insta attacked by mobs. But when people who are jerks are confronted by jerks, why would I only be mad at one of the jerks? GreenHorizons is far from the most ill treated person, he has way more people standing up for him than he should based on how he treats people. I also don't feel bad for Blackjack when he is fighting with a bunch of people, because he is also not a victim but an active participant. Maybe in the past he claimed victimhood but in recent times he seems OK with the tit for tat. When I guy like you who is a absolute jerk to a whole bunch of people gets attacked back, why would I shed a tear? I personally don't care much about what the rules are, I just believe they should be applied to all equally regardless of their side. So if the mods want to warn/ban those who post the no content insults, it would be fine. If they want to let it all go, great. I only get frustrated when certain people get a WAY longer leash than others. GH doesn't attack anyone. And BJ is way better than the bullies. I have strong disagreements with him but I don't need to lie about him and call him a bully. He doesn't bully people. GH doesn't bully anyone. I don't bully anyone. You don't like when people strongly disagree with you, and then you defend the bullies, that's all there's to it.
I have no idea who "the bullies" are in your opinion so no clue how I would defend them. And I can not understand your definition based on who you have named as not. But regardless of that, if you want people to be nicer, or better yet kinder on here maybe live the change instead of how you are. Or follow through with your many empty threats of not posting or ignoring certain posters. The victim schtick is getting very old when you are giving at least as hard as you are getting.
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On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein).
True.
For context (emphasis mine): Show nested quote +On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed?
I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July).
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On November 06 2024 02:27 RvB wrote:
When will we start getting results from the election?
When the polls start closing, which is like most things in American politics completely different by State and seemingly random. Found this map though!
https://www.270towin.com/poll-closing-times
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On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong.
Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all!
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On November 06 2024 02:27 RvB wrote:
When will we start getting results from the election?
Polls on the East Coast start closing around 7 p.m. EST so I would expect too see the first estimates around that time. California closes 4 hours later.
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On November 06 2024 02:38 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:45 Chezinu wrote:On November 06 2024 00:41 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 23:10 farvacola wrote:
Friends in NE and Central Ohio reported crazy lines first thing this morning. Already voted early here in Virginia. It is crazy how it is allowed to make it more difficult to vote (like less stations) in certain parts than others, even in the same state. And how the person who picks where it all goes is partisan. It should be the same for all people in the US, you guys need some impartial federal group that runs these elections. I don't think impartial federal group even exists. I don't think so either, it would need to be new. But having every state manage the federal election differently is a bad idea, worse when you know they are doing it in a partisan fashion (in both directions). Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:03 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 06 2024 00:41 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 23:10 farvacola wrote:
Friends in NE and Central Ohio reported crazy lines first thing this morning. Already voted early here in Virginia. It is crazy how it is allowed to make it more difficult to vote (like less stations) in certain parts than others, even in the same state. And how the person who picks where it all goes is partisan. It should be the same for all people in the US, you guys need some impartial federal group that runs these elections. Voting is done by the states and if there were a motion for a federal oversight comittee to monitor elections half of the states (I'll let you guess which ones) would vote against it. I'm sure the half would change depending on who set up the oversight committee. But at some point the country needs at least a little faith in someone, or some group to be "fair" where they can trust it even if the decision does not go their way. Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:49 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 22:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
There's definitely some kind of connection between fascism and genocide.
Can you commit genocide if you aren't fascist?
I don't know that you can. The wiping out of an ethnic group could just happen due to political convenience I suppose but if there's any ideology behind the genocide you're pretty much looking at fascism.
So I'd say that genocide is (usually) fascism, but fascism is not genocide. No, Fascism does not just mean bad. Neither does capitalism. First genocide existed long before the 1920's. Next you can look at current China and the USSR and see that communism is completely capable of genocide. Economic systems, political systems, hell religion (or not being religions) does not make evil/bad. That is simply human. This is why you get super evil far left and far right. The best systems require checks and balances so that the wrong person or small group can't seize the power and do evil things. Not to mention that the more power one has more evil they tend to get. This whole "our side is good" thing leads to just a lot of justifying of terrible, awful, horrific behavior. Russia, China, Iran, NK all have very different political systems and different economic systems. What they have in common is brutal dictatorships that are hell bent on not just oppressing their own people but rather as many as possible. I have no idea why you are saying this to me, I didn't make the claim that fascism=bad. Did you accidentally quote my post, or did you just completely fail to understand it? Fascism is often based on racial purity, and the designation of 'other' groups to blame for everything. This is what leads to genocide. Its almost a necessary step. The two are linked. It feels like you didn't read my whole post and just fixated on the one part you did not like. I was just guessing on why you think they are the same when there are plenty (maybe more or the same I have no added it up) of genocides that have nothing to do with fascism. On November 05 2024 22:50 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 22:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 22:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
There's definitely some kind of connection between fascism and genocide.
Can you commit genocide if you aren't fascist?
I don't know that you can. The wiping out of an ethnic group could just happen due to political convenience I suppose but if there's any ideology behind the genocide you're pretty much looking at fascism.
So I'd say that genocide is (usually) fascism, but fascism is not genocide. No, Fascism does not just mean bad. Neither does capitalism. First genocide existed long before the 1920's. Next you can look at current China and the USSR and see that communism is completely capable of genocide. Economic systems, political systems, hell religion (or not being religions) does not make evil/bad. That is simply human. This is why you get super evil far left and far right. The best systems require checks and balances so that the wrong person or small group can't seize the power and do evil things. Not to mention that the more power one has more evil they tend to get. This whole "our side is good" thing leads to just a lot of justifying of terrible, awful, horrific behavior. Russia, China, Iran, NK all have very different political systems and different economic systems. What they have in common is brutal dictatorships that are hell bent on not just oppressing their own people but rather as many as possible. On November 05 2024 22:04 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 21:55 Velr wrote:
No... For fucks sake.
Facism is a political system.
Genocide is an action taken by a state or group.
They describe totally diffrent things. Agreed, but also if anyone else was in GH's shoes they'd also occasionally oversimplify a point and say incorrect things if they were up against this level of abuse he faces in this thread on the regular by the same tiny well-protected self-righteous group of bullies. It's unacceptable what people are doing to him here and I've been so fed up with it because the only option GH and others have is to ignore the bullies - which should not be necessary. The bullies should be kicked out. If they actually kicked out all the bullies you would be gone too. What you want is the people who disagree with you to be kicked out, especially the ones who disagree with you the way you disagree with others. In your mind anyone's a bully who has an opposite view to yours. No, there are very few bullies here. But they hold power, and they target the same people all the time. You can agree with me on that without letting your bias shine through. Nope that is just you projecting. Bullies are people who respond with low or no content posts that are just insults or sarcasm. And I can find a ton of yours if you would really like. On November 05 2024 22:28 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2024 21:45 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 14:31 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2024 14:02 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 13:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
How is genocide not fascism to you? Genocide is completely separate from fascism, and not only because basically every political spectrum has done it including communist (even right now!) But because it existed long before fascism did. Next Russia is trying to speed run all the possible war crimes including genocide and Trump getting into power increases that one AS WELL AS what is going on in the middle east. And if you are one issue, anti fascism voter, then why would you be against the person "supporting fascism" compared to the actual fascist. And if you think Fascism and genocide are the same thing , then wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop the fascist from taking power of the worlds most powerful army? Red lines are red lines, despite what Barack Obama says Consider this hypothetical. You’ve dude A you really hate, dude B you really dislike but less Someone tells you you’re duty bound to have you wife or s/o banged by one of them. For the greater good. Hey B is slightly less shit Alternatively, you have the option of just leaving your wife or s/o to remain in glorious monogamy, untainted with such sordid machinations. I don’t see why this is so unfathomable to folks. GH considers it a non-negotiable issue, and provided neither party shifts to his position he’s not going to proffer his support to either. In a state where his vote is effectively meaningless anyway. Why is this so confusing? It is confusing because this has nothing to do with why fascism is genocide, which is just a completely wrong and nonsensical statement. There are so many bad statements made that people on the "left" feel obliged to defend. If it is bad or worse statement people need to start being against it whether or no matter what "side" they have branded themselves. As to your completely unrelated analogy, if it means stopping a fascist from taking over and trying to swap from a democracy to theocracy with oligarchs they can both bang my wife at the same time. When stakes are high enough you have to make hard choices, there is nothing moralistic about dodging hard questions so you can be condescending. #Cucks4Harris I kid. I did feel it was a rather apt, albeit somewhat crude analogy Ultimately, I somewhat agree with GH’s rationale, some don’t. He’s at least somewhat politically engaged at least. Depending on what form of election, 30-50+% of folks don’t vote amongst most Western democracies, so hes got plenty of company. Hoping for a Harris/Waltz triumph over here anyway. That said if they don’t, my one and only election prediction is you will see a bucketload of moaning analysis and teeth gnashing blaming the left, or Arab Americans for not toeing the line. I can’t even find a bookmaker willing to take a bet on it! I have no problem with people voting for who they think would be their best person, regardless if they have any chance. I do have a problem with those in democracies who don't vote at all. My frustration (and likely others) is the constant judgement and moralizing. Then it becomes worse when his answer is utopia that he only has a concept of a plan about and wants all the people he relentlessly insults to help him come up with the details. You also got to either hate genocide or not, you can't really really hate it but when your team does it start finding excuses or not even believe what's obviously true. Pure insults and sarcasm are exactly the only content you'll find in the comments I'm talking about. You just choose to ignore it because apparently you don't like GH either. That is my point, you either have to be against all of it or none of it. I don't like it when "innocents" get insta attacked by mobs. But when people who are jerks are confronted by jerks, why would I only be mad at one of the jerks? GreenHorizons is far from the most ill treated person, he has way more people standing up for him than he should based on how he treats people. I also don't feel bad for Blackjack when he is fighting with a bunch of people, because he is also not a victim but an active participant. Maybe in the past he claimed victimhood but in recent times he seems OK with the tit for tat. When I guy like you who is a absolute jerk to a whole bunch of people gets attacked back, why would I shed a tear? I personally don't care much about what the rules are, I just believe they should be applied to all equally regardless of their side. So if the mods want to warn/ban those who post the no content insults, it would be fine. If they want to let it all go, great. I only get frustrated when certain people get a WAY longer leash than others. GH doesn't attack anyone. And BJ is way better than the bullies. I have strong disagreements with him but I don't need to lie about him and call him a bully. He doesn't bully people. GH doesn't bully anyone. I don't bully anyone. You don't like when people strongly disagree with you, and then you defend the bullies, that's all there's to it. I have no idea who "the bullies" are in your opinion so no clue how I would defend them. And I can not understand your definition based on who you have named as not. But regardless of that, if you want people to be nicer, or better yet kinder on here maybe live the change instead of how you are. Or follow through with your many empty threats of not posting or ignoring certain posters. The victim schtick is getting very old when you are giving at least as hard as you are getting.
If you don't know who the bullies are, feel free to DM me and I'll have an honest conversation with you about the rampant abusive behavior on tl.net against people such as GH.
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On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. Show nested quote +For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July).
I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want
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On November 06 2024 02:28 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? Stein voters are generally people who feel powerless and resentful. Its more of a middle finger than a vote. Someone trying to broadcast their Stein support and making sure people to mention PA is just the usual attention seeking. I am not talking about policy or ethics or whatever. I am saying the sort of person who makes that post will not provide worthwhile conversation
The irony, of course, is that the powerlessness is mostly caused by Jill Stein, who isn't interested in working within a coalition of a party that actually has a chance of winning (e.g., the Democrats). Instead of her putting in the effort during non-election years to influence some actual political leaders, she just stubbornly appears once every four years, like a groundhog seeing their shadow and promising to spoil the election results.
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Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong.
GH has just arrived at his house. He noticed his neighbours’s car is upside down and in flames, it subsequently explodes sending shrapnel everywhere, indeed unfortunately a fragment fatally embeds itself in a beloved neighbourhood cat.
His immediate response is ‘Hm, this isn’t ideal’ . Ok probably not his response, mine. The shitter a situation gets the more neutral I go. A mere minor setback is ‘fuck me this entire universe is fucking hateful’, where a potentially life-changing setback is ‘Hm… this isn’t ideal’ anyway, moving on.
Upon which the neighbourhood just descends upon him, demanding he has concrete answers on how to prevent cars exploding, or how to protect cats from shrapnel. Incidentally a question they pose to nobody else.
To continue this tortuous analogy, people are just perpetually angry at GH for noticing and acknowledging that cars exploding and killing cats is kinda not desirable because he doesn’t have answers they like. He becomes a pariah in the neighbourhood
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On November 06 2024 02:43 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 06 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 06 2024 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:
Someone going out of their way to make sure people know they voted for stein tells you all you need to know. We have plenty of other interesting things to discuss. No reason to respond to them. If anything we should all be thankful they didn't vote for Trump (assuming they are either a PA voter or they voted for Stein). True. For context (emphasis mine): On July 15 2024 07:37 TentativePanda wrote:On July 15 2024 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 15 2024 06:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But I also see good qualities in him, the best among those that he truly loves his country Would you mind elaborating on what you're referring to when you say that you believe Trump loves his country? How does he demonstrate that he loves the United States? Having to ask this question just proves you've never let an ounce of you question if Trump isn't Super Evil incarnate like they say he is. He isn't allowed a shred of grace or mercy in the resistance cult. Honest people know he genuinely loves the US, and maybe just has different opinions on how to Make It Great Again. Is that not allowed? I had forgotten that TentativePanda was a Trump sympathizer (and clearly couldn't answer the original question in July). I don't support him. My thoughts there are consistent with my thoughts above that I don't think him winning is the end of the world. You can try to put words in my mouth all you want
Your post literally sympathizes with Trump, where you wrote that he's being treated unfairly and that he's undeserving of the criticism he gets. That's not the same thing as saying you support Trump for president lol.
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Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all!
I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part
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On November 06 2024 02:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:41 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. Online Harris voters are obsessed with telling people how to vote, and making nasty remarks about their ethics, intelligence or character. They virtue signal wayyyy more than 3rd party/nonvoters. They are protecting us from unknown evil after all! I’d dispute the ‘unknown’ part
Yeah seriously. Does TP not know who Trump is? That would make more sense...
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On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong.
I understand his strategy it's not that complex. He thinks punishing the democrats for not being enough against genocide in Gaza is justified. He doesn't understand that the punishment is the nation gets four years of trump. If your position that four years of trump is a good thing you cannot uphold leftists values. It's not logical to believe trump winning is a good outcome for leftists. Its not rational for a leftist to believe that trump winning is a good outcome.
Just because you refuse to agnowedge the outcome of your decision doesn't absolve you of the responsibility your efforts made to get there.
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People are perpetually angry at GH because he accuses them of things like supporting genocide and then dodges every question back his way. If he had straight forward open conversations he would be fine. There is more people on here that agree with most of his politics than many other posters who do not take (or give) nearly as much shit. He is not a victim, he is a participant (and a crazy repetitive one he has said genocide over 100 times this year). And his targets are everyone and anyone right away with no grace. It does not take long to see it.
And if you don't think it is incendiary, try to imagine being called an anti-Semite over and over and over again, because you say you support Palestinians.
Voting for Harris does not mean you support Genocide, it is a stupid, ignorant, incendiary comment, and if that is the best he can do no one should be taking him as some sort of serious voice for anything.
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On November 06 2024 02:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. GH has just arrived at his house. He noticed his neighbours’s car is upside down and in flames, it subsequently explodes sending shrapnel everywhere, indeed unfortunately a fragment fatally embeds itself in a beloved neighbourhood cat. His immediate response is ‘Hm, this isn’t ideal’ . Ok probably not his response, mine. The shitter a situation gets the more neutral I go. A mere minor setback is ‘fuck me this entire universe is fucking hateful’, where a potentially life-changing setback is ‘Hm… this isn’t ideal’ anyway, moving on. Upon which the neighbourhood just descends upon him, demanding he has concrete answers on how to prevent cars exploding, or how to protect cats from shrapnel. Incidentally a question they pose to nobody else. To continue this tortuous analogy, people are just perpetually angry at GH for noticing and acknowledging that cars exploding and killing cats is kinda not desirable because he doesn’t have answers they like. He becomes a pariah in the neighbourhood
Is this really how you look at the situation? Do you think perhaps there is a step where people offer solutions on how to stop cars exploding or explain to him why the car exploded?
Gh in this analogy is the guy telling everyone we need to stop using cars and the world continuing to use cars makes you responsible for car killing. People ask him how the world is going to function tomorrow when they need to get to work and gh accuses them of not having a red line at dead cats.
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Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On November 06 2024 02:53 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 02:36 Magic Powers wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union. GH has a strategy and he's not abandoning any of his values. Just because we disagree with his strategy, doesn't mean he doesn't have one or that he doesn't have values. It's coherent, logical and rational from his point of view. You refuse to see the validity of his strategy because you don't understand it. I refuse his conclusion not because I know for a fact that I'm right, but because I believe I'm right. I can't mathematically support my decision, I can only make sense of it intuitively. My intuition might be wrong. I understand his strategy it's not that complex. He thinks punishing the democrats for not being enough against genocide in Gaza is justified. He doesn't understand that the punishment is the nation gets four years of trump. If your position that four years of trump is a good thing you cannot uphold leftists values. It's not logical to believe trump winning is a good outcome for leftists. Its not rational for a leftist to believe that trump winning is a good outcome. Just because you refuse to agnowedge the outcome of your decision doesn't absolve you of the responsibility your efforts made to get there.
This goes both ways though
GH, and similarly aligned people have said this is their dealbreaker, fix it. As far as my understanding is of his position, he’d (reluctantly) vote Dem if this issue was resolved. I may be misrepresenting him here so, I can stand correction.
Harris’ ticket haven’t fixed it. Ergo you don’t get those votes.
It’s been a known factor for months
It’s Democracy baby! As I said previously for every GH who doesn’t partake for whatever reason, in his case I think a strong moral position, there’s double digits of the electorate who don’t vote because they couldn’t be arsed.
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EPT
