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On November 06 2024 00:41 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 23:10 farvacola wrote:
Friends in NE and Central Ohio reported crazy lines first thing this morning. Already voted early here in Virginia. It is crazy how it is allowed to make it more difficult to vote (like less stations) in certain parts than others, even in the same state. And how the person who picks where it all goes is partisan. It should be the same for all people in the US, you guys need some impartial federal group that runs these elections.
I don't think impartial federal group even exists.
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On November 06 2024 00:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Voted for Stein in PA this morning. Very simple message for y'all. People can vote for who they want, and have their own theory of change that's different from yours. To both sides, it's not the end of the world regardless of the outcome. Turning off all news for the day and doing some work now <3
Don't take that reasonable and measured attitude to today. This is effectively Purge Day. If we don't respond in mindless and blind rhetorical violeance against one another, are we even 'Muricans?!
(I voted this morning. Took about 30 minutes. Going to my dental appointment then watching hentai).
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United States24803 Posts
On November 06 2024 00:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Voted for Stein in PA this morning. Very simple message for y'all. People can vote for who they want, and have their own theory of change that's different from yours. To both sides, it's not the end of the world regardless of the outcome. Turning off all news for the day and doing some work now <3
I agree with the underlined sentence... I don't really find it controversial—that's how democracy works.
I don't necessarily agree with the bolded sentence, although it depends on your definition of "end of the world." There will still be a planet in orbit. There may not be many humans left, depending on how things go in the coming months/years/decades.
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On November 06 2024 00:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Voted for Stein in PA this morning. Very simple message for y'all. People can vote for who they want, and have their own theory of change that's different from yours. To both sides, it's not the end of the world regardless of the outcome. Turning off all news for the day and doing some work now <3
Openly voting for the Russian asset because you can/want to for sure is a thing to do.
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On November 06 2024 00:39 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 22:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
There's definitely some kind of connection between fascism and genocide.
Can you commit genocide if you aren't fascist?
I don't know that you can. The wiping out of an ethnic group could just happen due to political convenience I suppose but if there's any ideology behind the genocide you're pretty much looking at fascism.
So I'd say that genocide is (usually) fascism, but fascism is not genocide. No, Fascism does not just mean bad. Neither does capitalism. First genocide existed long before the 1920's. Next you can look at current China and the USSR and see that communism is completely capable of genocide. Economic systems, political systems, hell religion (or not being religions) does not make evil/bad. That is simply human. This is why you get super evil far left and far right. The best systems require checks and balances so that the wrong person or small group can't seize the power and do evil things. Not to mention that the more power one has more evil they tend to get. This whole "our side is good" thing leads to just a lot of justifying of terrible, awful, horrific behavior. Russia, China, Iran, NK all have very different political systems and different economic systems. What they have in common is brutal dictatorships that are hell bent on not just oppressing their own people but rather as many as possible. I have no idea why you are saying this to me, I didn't make the claim that fascism=bad. Did you accidentally quote my post, or did you just completely fail to understand it? Fascism is often based on racial purity, and the designation of 'other' groups to blame for everything. This is what leads to genocide. Its almost a necessary step. The two are linked. It feels like you didn't read my whole post and just fixated on the one part you did not like. I was just guessing on why you think they are the same when there are plenty (maybe more or the same I have no added it up) of genocides that have nothing to do with fascism. Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 22:50 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 22:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 22:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
There's definitely some kind of connection between fascism and genocide.
Can you commit genocide if you aren't fascist?
I don't know that you can. The wiping out of an ethnic group could just happen due to political convenience I suppose but if there's any ideology behind the genocide you're pretty much looking at fascism.
So I'd say that genocide is (usually) fascism, but fascism is not genocide. No, Fascism does not just mean bad. Neither does capitalism. First genocide existed long before the 1920's. Next you can look at current China and the USSR and see that communism is completely capable of genocide. Economic systems, political systems, hell religion (or not being religions) does not make evil/bad. That is simply human. This is why you get super evil far left and far right. The best systems require checks and balances so that the wrong person or small group can't seize the power and do evil things. Not to mention that the more power one has more evil they tend to get. This whole "our side is good" thing leads to just a lot of justifying of terrible, awful, horrific behavior. Russia, China, Iran, NK all have very different political systems and different economic systems. What they have in common is brutal dictatorships that are hell bent on not just oppressing their own people but rather as many as possible. On November 05 2024 22:04 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 21:55 Velr wrote:
No... For fucks sake.
Facism is a political system.
Genocide is an action taken by a state or group.
They describe totally diffrent things. Agreed, but also if anyone else was in GH's shoes they'd also occasionally oversimplify a point and say incorrect things if they were up against this level of abuse he faces in this thread on the regular by the same tiny well-protected self-righteous group of bullies. It's unacceptable what people are doing to him here and I've been so fed up with it because the only option GH and others have is to ignore the bullies - which should not be necessary. The bullies should be kicked out. If they actually kicked out all the bullies you would be gone too. What you want is the people who disagree with you to be kicked out, especially the ones who disagree with you the way you disagree with others. In your mind anyone's a bully who has an opposite view to yours. No, there are very few bullies here. But they hold power, and they target the same people all the time. You can agree with me on that without letting your bias shine through. Nope that is just you projecting. Bullies are people who respond with low or no content posts that are just insults or sarcasm. And I can find a ton of yours if you would really like. On November 05 2024 22:28 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2024 21:45 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 14:31 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2024 14:02 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 13:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 05 2024 13:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 05 2024 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
The reason voting for Harris is "wrong" is because supporting genocide is "wrong".
That Dems and their supporters have already rationalized their support for genocide pretty much means fascism is winning regardless of the 2024 election outcome.
It's obvious to me how Trump winning can lead to fascism, but how does Harris winning also lead to fascism? How is genocide not fascism to you? Genocide is completely separate from fascism, and not only because basically every political spectrum has done it including communist (even right now!) But because it existed long before fascism did. Next Russia is trying to speed run all the possible war crimes including genocide and Trump getting into power increases that one AS WELL AS what is going on in the middle east. And if you are one issue, anti fascism voter, then why would you be against the person "supporting fascism" compared to the actual fascist. And if you think Fascism and genocide are the same thing , then wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop the fascist from taking power of the worlds most powerful army? Red lines are red lines, despite what Barack Obama says Consider this hypothetical. You’ve dude A you really hate, dude B you really dislike but less Someone tells you you’re duty bound to have you wife or s/o banged by one of them. For the greater good. Hey B is slightly less shit Alternatively, you have the option of just leaving your wife or s/o to remain in glorious monogamy, untainted with such sordid machinations. I don’t see why this is so unfathomable to folks. GH considers it a non-negotiable issue, and provided neither party shifts to his position he’s not going to proffer his support to either. In a state where his vote is effectively meaningless anyway. Why is this so confusing? It is confusing because this has nothing to do with why fascism is genocide, which is just a completely wrong and nonsensical statement. There are so many bad statements made that people on the "left" feel obliged to defend. If it is bad or worse statement people need to start being against it whether or no matter what "side" they have branded themselves. As to your completely unrelated analogy, if it means stopping a fascist from taking over and trying to swap from a democracy to theocracy with oligarchs they can both bang my wife at the same time.  When stakes are high enough you have to make hard choices, there is nothing moralistic about dodging hard questions so you can be condescending. #Cucks4Harris I kid. I did feel it was a rather apt, albeit somewhat crude analogy Ultimately, I somewhat agree with GH’s rationale, some don’t. He’s at least somewhat politically engaged at least. Depending on what form of election, 30-50+% of folks don’t vote amongst most Western democracies, so hes got plenty of company. Hoping for a Harris/Waltz triumph over here anyway. That said if they don’t, my one and only election prediction is you will see a bucketload of moaning analysis and teeth gnashing blaming the left, or Arab Americans for not toeing the line. I can’t even find a bookmaker willing to take a bet on it! I have no problem with people voting for who they think would be their best person, regardless if they have any chance. I do have a problem with those in democracies who don't vote at all. My frustration (and likely others) is the constant judgement and moralizing. Then it becomes worse when his answer is utopia that he only has a concept of a plan about and wants all the people he relentlessly insults to help him come up with the details. You also got to either hate genocide or not, you can't really really hate it but when your team does it start finding excuses or not even believe what's obviously true. Pure insults and sarcasm are exactly the only content you'll find in the comments I'm talking about. You just choose to ignore it because apparently you don't like GH either. That is my point, you either have to be against all of it or none of it. I don't like it when "innocents" get insta attacked by mobs. But when people who are jerks are confronted by jerks, why would I only be mad at one of the jerks? GreenHorizons is far from the most ill treated person, he has way more people standing up for him than he should based on how he treats people. I also don't feel bad for Blackjack when he is fighting with a bunch of people, because he is also not a victim but an active participant. Maybe in the past he claimed victimhood but in recent times he seems OK with the tit for tat. When I guy like you who is a absolute jerk to a whole bunch of people gets attacked back, why would I shed a tear? I personally don't care much about what the rules are, I just believe they should be applied to all equally regardless of their side. So if the mods want to warn/ban those who post the no content insults, it would be fine. If they want to let it all go, great. I only get frustrated when certain people get a WAY longer leash than others.
GH doesn't attack anyone. And BJ is way better than the bullies. I have strong disagreements with him but I don't need to lie about him and call him a bully. He doesn't bully people. GH doesn't bully anyone. I don't bully anyone. You don't like when people strongly disagree with you, and then you defend the bullies, that's all there's to it.
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On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on.
His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it.
I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union.
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So Georgia will be the first true indicator in a couple of hours, right? This process is so tedious and stressful.
We always vote on sundays, counted by hand, double checked by members of opposing parties and there's usually a reliable forecast in the afternoon of voting day, no matter if it's local, state, federal or Europe wide. I think the mail in papers are auto included in the notice letter you get, but i always vote in person. No machines or biometric chips needed. It doesn't have to be this complicated.
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On November 06 2024 00:49 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Voted for Stein in PA this morning. Very simple message for y'all. People can vote for who they want, and have their own theory of change that's different from yours. To both sides, it's not the end of the world regardless of the outcome. Turning off all news for the day and doing some work now <3 Openly voting for the Russian asset because you can/want to for sure is a thing to do.
Russia hoax 2.0
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On November 06 2024 00:49 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:39 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 22:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
There's definitely some kind of connection between fascism and genocide.
Can you commit genocide if you aren't fascist?
I don't know that you can. The wiping out of an ethnic group could just happen due to political convenience I suppose but if there's any ideology behind the genocide you're pretty much looking at fascism.
So I'd say that genocide is (usually) fascism, but fascism is not genocide. No, Fascism does not just mean bad. Neither does capitalism. First genocide existed long before the 1920's. Next you can look at current China and the USSR and see that communism is completely capable of genocide. Economic systems, political systems, hell religion (or not being religions) does not make evil/bad. That is simply human. This is why you get super evil far left and far right. The best systems require checks and balances so that the wrong person or small group can't seize the power and do evil things. Not to mention that the more power one has more evil they tend to get. This whole "our side is good" thing leads to just a lot of justifying of terrible, awful, horrific behavior. Russia, China, Iran, NK all have very different political systems and different economic systems. What they have in common is brutal dictatorships that are hell bent on not just oppressing their own people but rather as many as possible. I have no idea why you are saying this to me, I didn't make the claim that fascism=bad. Did you accidentally quote my post, or did you just completely fail to understand it? Fascism is often based on racial purity, and the designation of 'other' groups to blame for everything. This is what leads to genocide. Its almost a necessary step. The two are linked. It feels like you didn't read my whole post and just fixated on the one part you did not like. I was just guessing on why you think they are the same when there are plenty (maybe more or the same I have no added it up) of genocides that have nothing to do with fascism. On November 05 2024 22:50 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 22:35 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 22:25 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 22:18 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
There's definitely some kind of connection between fascism and genocide.
Can you commit genocide if you aren't fascist?
I don't know that you can. The wiping out of an ethnic group could just happen due to political convenience I suppose but if there's any ideology behind the genocide you're pretty much looking at fascism.
So I'd say that genocide is (usually) fascism, but fascism is not genocide. No, Fascism does not just mean bad. Neither does capitalism. First genocide existed long before the 1920's. Next you can look at current China and the USSR and see that communism is completely capable of genocide. Economic systems, political systems, hell religion (or not being religions) does not make evil/bad. That is simply human. This is why you get super evil far left and far right. The best systems require checks and balances so that the wrong person or small group can't seize the power and do evil things. Not to mention that the more power one has more evil they tend to get. This whole "our side is good" thing leads to just a lot of justifying of terrible, awful, horrific behavior. Russia, China, Iran, NK all have very different political systems and different economic systems. What they have in common is brutal dictatorships that are hell bent on not just oppressing their own people but rather as many as possible. On November 05 2024 22:04 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 21:55 Velr wrote:
No... For fucks sake.
Facism is a political system.
Genocide is an action taken by a state or group.
They describe totally diffrent things. Agreed, but also if anyone else was in GH's shoes they'd also occasionally oversimplify a point and say incorrect things if they were up against this level of abuse he faces in this thread on the regular by the same tiny well-protected self-righteous group of bullies. It's unacceptable what people are doing to him here and I've been so fed up with it because the only option GH and others have is to ignore the bullies - which should not be necessary. The bullies should be kicked out. If they actually kicked out all the bullies you would be gone too. What you want is the people who disagree with you to be kicked out, especially the ones who disagree with you the way you disagree with others. In your mind anyone's a bully who has an opposite view to yours. No, there are very few bullies here. But they hold power, and they target the same people all the time. You can agree with me on that without letting your bias shine through. Nope that is just you projecting. Bullies are people who respond with low or no content posts that are just insults or sarcasm. And I can find a ton of yours if you would really like. On November 05 2024 22:28 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2024 21:45 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 14:31 WombaT wrote:On November 05 2024 14:02 Billyboy wrote:On November 05 2024 13:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 05 2024 13:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
It's obvious to me how Trump winning can lead to fascism, but how does Harris winning also lead to fascism? How is genocide not fascism to you? Genocide is completely separate from fascism, and not only because basically every political spectrum has done it including communist (even right now!) But because it existed long before fascism did. Next Russia is trying to speed run all the possible war crimes including genocide and Trump getting into power increases that one AS WELL AS what is going on in the middle east. And if you are one issue, anti fascism voter, then why would you be against the person "supporting fascism" compared to the actual fascist. And if you think Fascism and genocide are the same thing , then wouldn't you do everything in your power to stop the fascist from taking power of the worlds most powerful army? Red lines are red lines, despite what Barack Obama says Consider this hypothetical. You’ve dude A you really hate, dude B you really dislike but less Someone tells you you’re duty bound to have you wife or s/o banged by one of them. For the greater good. Hey B is slightly less shit Alternatively, you have the option of just leaving your wife or s/o to remain in glorious monogamy, untainted with such sordid machinations. I don’t see why this is so unfathomable to folks. GH considers it a non-negotiable issue, and provided neither party shifts to his position he’s not going to proffer his support to either. In a state where his vote is effectively meaningless anyway. Why is this so confusing? It is confusing because this has nothing to do with why fascism is genocide, which is just a completely wrong and nonsensical statement. There are so many bad statements made that people on the "left" feel obliged to defend. If it is bad or worse statement people need to start being against it whether or no matter what "side" they have branded themselves. As to your completely unrelated analogy, if it means stopping a fascist from taking over and trying to swap from a democracy to theocracy with oligarchs they can both bang my wife at the same time. When stakes are high enough you have to make hard choices, there is nothing moralistic about dodging hard questions so you can be condescending. #Cucks4Harris I kid. I did feel it was a rather apt, albeit somewhat crude analogy Ultimately, I somewhat agree with GH’s rationale, some don’t. He’s at least somewhat politically engaged at least. Depending on what form of election, 30-50+% of folks don’t vote amongst most Western democracies, so hes got plenty of company. Hoping for a Harris/Waltz triumph over here anyway. That said if they don’t, my one and only election prediction is you will see a bucketload of moaning analysis and teeth gnashing blaming the left, or Arab Americans for not toeing the line. I can’t even find a bookmaker willing to take a bet on it! I have no problem with people voting for who they think would be their best person, regardless if they have any chance. I do have a problem with those in democracies who don't vote at all. My frustration (and likely others) is the constant judgement and moralizing. Then it becomes worse when his answer is utopia that he only has a concept of a plan about and wants all the people he relentlessly insults to help him come up with the details. You also got to either hate genocide or not, you can't really really hate it but when your team does it start finding excuses or not even believe what's obviously true. Pure insults and sarcasm are exactly the only content you'll find in the comments I'm talking about. You just choose to ignore it because apparently you don't like GH either. That is my point, you either have to be against all of it or none of it. I don't like it when "innocents" get insta attacked by mobs. But when people who are jerks are confronted by jerks, why would I only be mad at one of the jerks? GreenHorizons is far from the most ill treated person, he has way more people standing up for him than he should based on how he treats people. I also don't feel bad for Blackjack when he is fighting with a bunch of people, because he is also not a victim but an active participant. Maybe in the past he claimed victimhood but in recent times he seems OK with the tit for tat. When I guy like you who is a absolute jerk to a whole bunch of people gets attacked back, why would I shed a tear? I personally don't care much about what the rules are, I just believe they should be applied to all equally regardless of their side. So if the mods want to warn/ban those who post the no content insults, it would be fine. If they want to let it all go, great. I only get frustrated when certain people get a WAY longer leash than others. GH doesn't attack anyone. And BJ is way better than the bullies. I have strong disagreements with him but I don't need to lie about him and call him a bully. He doesn't bully people. GH doesn't bully anyone. I don't bully anyone. You don't like when people strongly disagree with you, and then you defend the bullies, that's all there's to it.
You don't think GH attacks someone when he says they don't care about genocide and support the genocide candidate? BJ is no where near his "bullies"? the guy is incapable of acting in good faith. He refuses to respond to the arguments against him and constantly reframes the discussion with nonsensical tangents that have nothing to do with what he's responding with. You can't make statements and act like they're arguments with any persuasive intent.
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On November 06 2024 00:52 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:49 Velr wrote:On November 06 2024 00:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Voted for Stein in PA this morning. Very simple message for y'all. People can vote for who they want, and have their own theory of change that's different from yours. To both sides, it's not the end of the world regardless of the outcome. Turning off all news for the day and doing some work now <3 Openly voting for the Russian asset because you can/want to for sure is a thing to do. Russia hoax 2.0 I assume your aware that multiple intelligence agencies, both in the US and abroad as well as the (at the time) Republican senate intelligence oversight committee all agree that 'Russian hoax 1.0' actually really did happen and that your just being purposefully dense.
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On November 06 2024 00:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:52 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Velr wrote:On November 06 2024 00:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Voted for Stein in PA this morning. Very simple message for y'all. People can vote for who they want, and have their own theory of change that's different from yours. To both sides, it's not the end of the world regardless of the outcome. Turning off all news for the day and doing some work now <3 Openly voting for the Russian asset because you can/want to for sure is a thing to do. Russia hoax 2.0 I assume your aware that multiple intelligence agencies, both in the US and abroad as well as the (at the time) Republican senate intelligence oversight committee all agree that 'Russian hoax 1.0' actually really did happen and that your just being purposefully dense.
And I would say to that I don't have a ton of trust in intelligence agencies for reasons that are obvious, or at least used to be obvious. But I don't appreciate your condescending asshole tone. Also stop interfering in the US election Mr. Netherlands
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On November 06 2024 01:02 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:56 Gorsameth wrote:On November 06 2024 00:52 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Velr wrote:On November 06 2024 00:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Voted for Stein in PA this morning. Very simple message for y'all. People can vote for who they want, and have their own theory of change that's different from yours. To both sides, it's not the end of the world regardless of the outcome. Turning off all news for the day and doing some work now <3 Openly voting for the Russian asset because you can/want to for sure is a thing to do. Russia hoax 2.0 I assume your aware that multiple intelligence agencies, both in the US and abroad as well as the (at the time) Republican senate intelligence oversight committee all agree that 'Russian hoax 1.0' actually really did happen and that your just being purposefully dense. And I would say to that I don't have a ton of trust in intelligence agencies for reasons that are obvious, or at least used to be obvious. But I don't appreciate your condescending asshole tone. Also stop interfering in the US election Mr. Netherlands
But you very confidently claim that it is a hoax.
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On November 06 2024 01:06 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 01:02 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 00:56 Gorsameth wrote:On November 06 2024 00:52 TentativePanda wrote:On November 06 2024 00:49 Velr wrote:On November 06 2024 00:39 TentativePanda wrote:
Voted for Stein in PA this morning. Very simple message for y'all. People can vote for who they want, and have their own theory of change that's different from yours. To both sides, it's not the end of the world regardless of the outcome. Turning off all news for the day and doing some work now <3 Openly voting for the Russian asset because you can/want to for sure is a thing to do. Russia hoax 2.0 I assume your aware that multiple intelligence agencies, both in the US and abroad as well as the (at the time) Republican senate intelligence oversight committee all agree that 'Russian hoax 1.0' actually really did happen and that your just being purposefully dense. And I would say to that I don't have a ton of trust in intelligence agencies for reasons that are obvious, or at least used to be obvious. But I don't appreciate your condescending asshole tone. Also stop interfering in the US election Mr. Netherlands But you very confidently claim that it is a hoax.
No, I said calling Jill Stein a Russian asset is a hoax, confidently
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2.0 implies a 1.0 existed.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On November 06 2024 00:49 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On November 05 2024 23:13 KT_Elwood wrote:
It's absurd to me that people believing that a genocide against arabs and muslims, aided by US weapons is happening, and still would rather have a president that calls muslims "criminal vermin" and wants to take their citizenship, deport them.. while being open to peace through ethnic cleansing in the Westbank..and a good friend of netanyahu.
All that while the US is responsible for countless deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan... in the campaign "against Terror" started by GW Bush (R)
But TikTok Propaganda is just too powerfu and it says "Vote the putin puppet that destabilzes the west"
GH is not voting for Trump. If he wanted him in power, he'd vote for him. So it's wrong to say "he'd rather have Trump". It's just completely wrong to frame it that way. He's abstaining, and so are many other people who oppose the genocide in Gaza. Say what you will about that strategy, you can't say people aren't acting according to their values. GH is not a hypocrite in any meaningful capacity. The recent developments in Gaza prove this point. Israel has now ended UN aid to Gaza. They've also not met the US demands of supplies into Gaza. The US doesn't appear to care and just keeps supporting Israel. This is happening under Biden, and it'll continue to go like that under Harris. GH is being rational in his own right. You just don't like his strategic choice. In terms of values, he's spot on. His "strategic choice" isn't coherent with his values. You don't get to opt out of the consequences of your actions just because you declare yourself to be a morally superior person to other people. The reality he exists in is of a binary choice for who becomes president. He chooses to spend his energy and emotion to fight against the binary choice his morals would dictate he support. I don't believe, or want to believe, he's a simple person that only has formed his personal belief structure around the last year or so. I believe or chose to believe, that he cares about causes and people for the majority of his life, to entail the time he has had to be around to be eligible to vote. I find his ability to ignore every person around him, every person in the country, every person in the world that would be effected by his actions reprehensible. Every person is a complex being with thoughts and experiences lasting their whole life. GH wants to compartmentalize all of that and shove it away so he can shit on the people who have to live in the world the morning after the election. He understands very well that there is a binary outcome to the election and he doesn't give a shit. He feels he has the privilege to not be affected by a trump presidency nor does he feel anyone around him will be affected by it. I really really wish I could live in a world where I could afford to have red lines and I didn't have a mother or sister or trans friends or immigrant friends who have children that would be harmed by my privilege to make a moral stand on a single issue I care about. I did not chose to be born in the United states in a red district at a time to be able to vote in 2024. I didn't chose to have a mother or a sister, I could chose not to have trans friends or immigrant friends or friends in a union.
You live in that world every day. Firing your tick on a ballot box every 4/5 years doesn’t necessarily move the needle. Indeed I think it’s a big part of the problem.
For borderline half my life I’ve been dutifully doing that, it hasn’t yet actualised in many directions I find desirable. Hey most of my material conditions are actively worse than when I first hit the ballot box.
But I think for many, ticking that box is like a bare minimum, and once that’s done hey, I’ve done my part!
So as a general critique of electoralism I think GH is pretty on the money. However, one also has to consider harm reduction, especially with various politically persecuted groups so, personally I would go more with the lesser evil option.
For me the main problem with electoralism is that that’s that. It’s both the minimum and the limits of my civic responsibility. And if it’s widely believed, that’s the box many remain within. Well I voted, all I can realistically do is vote so hey
‘The person is the political’ as they say. Go argue on internet forums, you might change 1 person’s mind, hell they might change another person’s mind, and the cycle may continue. Get involved in a union or some community group.
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On November 06 2024 01:08 Simberto wrote:
2.0 implies a 1.0 existed.
I do believe 1.0 existed, but why did you insert I confidently believe what I believe? I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong. Why do you and the other poster feel the need to effectively call me an idiot because we disagree? You people are rotten
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People who believe in a flat earth have a different theory about how physics works than me but that doesn't make it legitimate. If your theory of change is to punish the democrats by helping trump get elected, then the outcome of your theory of change is that trump getting elected is a better outcome than Harris getting elected. You don't get to absolve yourself of the consequences of your actions by declaring the moral superiority of your actions. Trump winning may not be the end of the world for you but that doesn't mean there are no consequences for a trump victory.
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On November 06 2024 01:11 Sermokala wrote:
People who believe in a flat earth have a different theory about how physics works than me but that doesn't make it legitimate. If your theory of change is to punish the democrats by helping trump get elected, then the outcome of your theory of change is that trump getting elected is a better outcome than Harris getting elected. You don't get to absolve yourself of the consequences of your actions by declaring the moral superiority of your actions. Trump winning may not be the end of the world for you but that doesn't mean there are no consequences for a trump victory.
You're conflating a lot here, and seriously oversimplifying. Flat earth is scientifically, and physically disprovable. Theory of change is a political/philosophical theory that is not. I think both are reasonable, and you don't, that's fine. And no, this isn't just about taking the moral highground (though voting due to moral convictions is well... certainly valid in a very obvious way)
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On November 06 2024 01:14 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 01:11 Sermokala wrote:
People who believe in a flat earth have a different theory about how physics works than me but that doesn't make it legitimate. If your theory of change is to punish the democrats by helping trump get elected, then the outcome of your theory of change is that trump getting elected is a better outcome than Harris getting elected. You don't get to absolve yourself of the consequences of your actions by declaring the moral superiority of your actions. Trump winning may not be the end of the world for you but that doesn't mean there are no consequences for a trump victory. You're conflating a lot here, and seriously oversimplifying. Flat earth is scientifically, and physically disprovable. Theory of change is a political/philosophical theory that is not. I think both are reasonable, and you don't, that's fine. And no, this isn't just about taking the moral highground (though voting due to moral convictions is well... certainly valid in a very obvious way)
And you're responding to a comment that wasn't aimed at you or your comment, but the one above it.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On November 06 2024 01:11 Sermokala wrote:
People who believe in a flat earth have a different theory about how physics works than me but that doesn't make it legitimate. If your theory of change is to punish the democrats by helping trump get elected, then the outcome of your theory of change is that trump getting elected is a better outcome than Harris getting elected. You don't get to absolve yourself of the consequences of your actions by declaring the moral superiority of your actions. Trump winning may not be the end of the world for you but that doesn't mean there are no consequences for a trump victory.
If your theory is I have certain red lines and I won’t vote for you if you cross them, that’s a different kettle of fish.
GH has expressed no desire to get Trump elected or punish Democrats
You could throw the most desperate singleton going, perhaps approaching incel land two particularly unappealing partnership prospects and they’re not obligated to go for either. They can just say nah I’m ok being single for now
Ultimately the 20-40% of non politically engaged folks who couldn’t be arsed voting are a considerably bigger concern than a GH type
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EPT
