EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4419
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44104 Posts
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oBlade
United States5449 Posts
On September 28 2024 21:54 brian wrote: given there are an estimated 11-12 million illegal immigrants in the states total, a figure i’m sure you know given all your recent research on the topic, you might consider for a moment that you are misreading your statistic if you think 7 million of them are known criminals. 1) That's not a statistic, it's data. 2) There are 7 million illegal immigrants on the non-detained docket. There are more actual illegal immigrants, as you freely admit to. At least 660,000 of them have already been convicted of crimes other than against US immigration law (i.e. crossing a border outside a port of entry, overstaying a visa, overstaying visa-free travel on a passport, or using a false identity or intentionally destroying identity documents to gain access to a country under false pretenses) - meaning are criminals anywhere independent of the fact that they are in the US with no permission, which is itself not legal, meaning a crime, making them criminals. | ||
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brian
United States9616 Posts
On September 28 2024 22:08 oBlade wrote: 1) That's not a statistic, it's data. 2) There are 7 million illegal immigrants on the non-detained docket. There are more actual illegal immigrants, as you freely admit to. At least 660,000 of them have already been convicted of crimes other than against US immigration law (i.e. crossing a border outside a port of entry, overstaying a visa, overstaying visa-free travel on a passport, or using a false identity or intentionally destroying identity documents to gain access to a country under false pretenses) - meaning are criminals anywhere independent of the fact that they are in the US with no permission, which is itself not legal, meaning a crime, making them criminals. and you understand that the non detained docket is not a list of criminals, yes? it is that 660,000 number you’re intending to use here. not 7 million. yea? a 9 percent rate of people with a criminal record (these are not convictions) is low (if we assume there are only 7 million, which there are not) compared to the rate of criminal records in our citizen population. it is important to make a distinction here that having a criminal record actually is NOT indicative of being convicted. i had conflated these two on my first attempt here too, so clarifying for us all. ill leave that math to you should you be interested https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/directlyimpacted2022.html#:~:text=An estimated 19 million people,who have been arrested for | ||
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BlackJack
United States10366 Posts
On September 28 2024 21:31 Sadist wrote: Im just saying the devils in the details. Crime going up and then blaming immigrants with no Pareto chart of whats actually happening is not cool Fair enough. How about the example I posted from my locality, the SFChronicle's expose that showed the majority of San Francisco's fentanyl dealers all come from the same small collection of villages in Honduras, where they use their drug money to build mansions in their hometown and emblazon the gates to their homes with the logos of SF sports teams? San Francisco Mayor London Breed was called xenophobic and racist for saying last fall that “a lot” of the dealers are Honduran. She later apologized, saying it wasn’t her intention to single out one community or place the blame solely on them. Got her. That'll teach her not to say something factually accurate. Why do you think all the headlines I share to the thread about the disastrous consequences of Biden's border come from New York, SF, Chicago. They are blue cities with black mayors. It's like kryptonite to the people looking for the white supremacist to call racist or xenophobic. Btw, as for your request for more detailed statistics, not everyone thinks this is a good idea: San Francisco Police Chief Bill Scott said there is no value in studying the demographics of potential offenders. “We do not consider race or nationality in how we police,” he said. “We focus on behavior. If we see someone selling drugs, we’re going to arrest them.” One of the drug dealers the Chronicle interviewed said he was arrested and deported 9 times over. But who's keeping count? Not the SFPD, apparently. | ||
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oBlade
United States5449 Posts
On September 28 2024 22:13 brian wrote: and you understand that the non detained docket is not a list of criminals, yes? it is that 660,000 number you’re intending to use here. not 7 million. yea? a 9 percent rate of people with a criminal record (these are not convictions) is low (if we assume there are only 7 million, which there are not) compared to the rate of criminal records in our citizen population. it is important to make a distinction here that having a criminal record actually is NOT indicative of being convicted. i had conflated these two on my first attempt here too, so clarifying for us all. ill leave that math to you should you be interested https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/directlyimpacted2022.html#:~:text=An estimated 19 million people,who have been arrested for Want to put them on the detained docket and send them home? | ||
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brian
United States9616 Posts
On September 28 2024 22:54 oBlade wrote: Want to put them on the detained docket and send them home? i’m not against deporting convicted illegal immigrants but it seems to me the bigger problem is within the legal citizens don’t you think? this isn’t really an immigration problem, right? it’s a crime problem. some might suggest the ratio of immigrants with criminal records is artificially high (while still much lower, over all) as a result of the cops higher propensity to arrest them, too. but i don’t want to make too many different arguments to support what seems already clear. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13828 Posts
We're not memory-holding events BJ you're just presenting them in bad faith. If you're trying to justify demonizing the many for the actions of a few you're justifying calling every conservative a nazi because some conservatives are nazi's. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4721 Posts
On September 28 2024 20:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Thanks for the well thought out reply. I like to play the naive rube here from time to time (i.e. always because I am one), because I think it's interesting to understand why people are saying what they're saying. Engaging with them might get me there. Playing devil's advocate is a similar tactic. That's how you figure out true intentions and that's how you get good faith replies. Want to know if it's actually brown people they're afraid of? Don't call them racist right off the bat. Maybe many here are jaded from the same old patterns arising and therefor it's justified to call it like you see it, but the conservatives on this forum aren't the rednecks from the Rust Belt, they at least seem a bit more sophisticated. I remember xDaunt and the other guy who were the two pillars of conservatism (or like ultra right camo fascists) in the old thread and it was always so eerie how they conveyed their beliefs and how they got to their conclusions. It was weird. I still find it so so weird that people can see the same things and come to different conclusions, to the point of them being diametrically opposed. When the color is blue and someone says yellow, do you dismiss them for being stupid, or might there be something legit that should be addressed? I rather engage than spew ideology or counter for the sake of thinking the claims are ridiculous. Maybe I'm just a naive rube though, but getting to the crux of it all can dissolve more strongly held beliefs (I think) than we assume. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44104 Posts
On September 29 2024 03:48 Uldridge wrote: Thanks for the well thought out reply. I like to play the naive rube here from time to time (i.e. always because I am one), because I think it's interesting to understand why people are saying what they're saying. Engaging with them might get me there. Playing devil's advocate is a similar tactic. That's how you figure out true intentions and that's how you get good faith replies. Want to know if it's actually brown people they're afraid of? Don't call them racist right off the bat. Maybe many here are jaded from the same old patterns arising and therefor it's justified to call it like you see it, but the conservatives on this forum aren't the rednecks from the Rust Belt, they at least seem a bit more sophisticated. I remember xDaunt and the other guy who were the two pillars of conservatism (or like ultra right camo fascists) in the old thread and it was always so eerie how they conveyed their beliefs and how they got to their conclusions. It was weird. I don't think we disagree about anything here. Keep in mind that the post I wrote that included the terms "bad faith, ridiculous, illegitimate, xenophobic, and racist", which you replied to, was addressing the messages that Trump and other popular Republicans had been making... not any TL poster or person I'm speaking to in real life. (Although, looking back, I don't think I technically said the word "ridiculous", but that's probably just an honest mistake on your part.) Trump's beliefs and actions, for example, are all of those things I wrote, and they have been well-documented as such for years now. We've spent hundreds of posts discussing everything that Trump has done, in great detail; it's not like someone is hearing about Trump for the first time and is jumping to some unjustified conclusion that Trump is a prejudicial piece of shit. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10366 Posts
On September 29 2024 03:26 Sermokala wrote: Its not really accurate to say that its Bidens fault that the immigration situation in cities has been a disaster when we all know that the republican governor of texas was more than happy to tell everyone he was specifically transporting people to those cities to cause these problems. He specifically did it in a way to cause maximum damage and made efforts to not coordinate or do anything to mitigate the damage that he caused trafficking human beings in order to score the political points BJ is now trying to brag about. Publishing "facts" about a group of criminals when you know full well that you love generalizing the problem to all central Americans being criminals is still a bad thing no matter how you try to ret-con how you wrapped it up. We're not memory-holding events BJ you're just presenting them in bad faith. If you're trying to justify demonizing the many for the actions of a few you're justifying calling every conservative a nazi because some conservatives are nazi's. Whoops, someone is making some faulty assumptions (as usual). I've met many illegal immigrants in my life and most of them are good people that just want a better life. Nothing in my post indicates that because the fentanyl trade in SF is dominated by a group of Hondurans that I think all Central Americans are criminals or whatever stupid conclusion you're trying to draw. These are the kinds of logical leaps that you're used to making. I suspect your post is nothing more than projection because you are exactly the person that would generalize all conservatives as nazis or racists. | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2632 Posts
He wrongfully claimed that immigrants in the US are violent criminals, referring to them as “stone-cold killers”, “monsters” and “vile animals”. He then took it a notch higher with Harris: Trump attacked Harris, who on Friday visited the US-Mexico border for the first time in her 2024 presidential campaign, calling her “mentally impaired” and “mentally disabled”. I guess he got tired of holding back, thinking his current strategy is not working, and has finally gone full personal attack mode. Do you guys think this will win him votes or lose them? Personally, this feels like it will repel some of the voters he needs to win in November, there must be a reason why his campaign has been trying to get him not to do this. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44104 Posts
On September 29 2024 14:16 EnDeR_ wrote: Relevant to the discussion, Trump continues his nuanced take on immigration He then took it a notch higher with Harris: I guess he got tired of holding back, thinking his current strategy is not working, and has finally gone full personal attack mode. Do you guys think this will win him votes or lose them? Personally, this feels like it will repel some of the voters he needs to win in November, there must be a reason why his campaign has been trying to get him not to do this. It's hard to say. Trump insults people all the time, and his followers either agree, or like it, or think it makes him look tough, or don't mind. I actually can't think of anything Trump could do that would guarantee losing a few percent of his voters. | ||
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korrekt
76 Posts
On September 29 2024 19:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: It's hard to say. Trump insults people all the time, and his followers either agree, or like it, or think it makes him look tough, or don't mind. I actually can't think of anything Trump could do that would guarantee losing a few percent of his voters. I would assume if he started looking at things in a non-prejudiced, calm, and reflected manner, he would lose his base pretty fast. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44104 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7872 Posts
On September 29 2024 21:56 korrekt wrote: I would assume if he started looking at things in a non-prejudiced, calm, and reflected manner, he would lose his base pretty fast. At that point it’s fair to say that nothing he can do can sway away hardcore right wingers from Trump. He has proven a million times he is a deplorable man, with not a shade of honesty, decency, morals or interest into not being a complete a-hole. That being said, if he can’t turn his base against him he might very well convince more people to vote against him. The only thing Trump has for hinself is the apathy and / or the relative unpopularity of his opponent. But he can totally convince otherwise unconvinced voters that no, they really, really don’t want him near the White House and that it means voting for Harris is a real good idea. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21579 Posts
On September 30 2024 00:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: No, Trump tried to rail it in on abortion because even he could see how utterly unpopular it had become and he was attacked for it by the right wingers.At that point it’s fair to say that nothing he can do can sway away hardcore right wingers from Trump. He has proven a million times he is a deplorable man, with not a shade of honesty, decency, morals or interest into not being a complete a-hole. That being said, if he can’t turn his base against him he might very well convince more people to vote against him. The only thing Trump has for hinself is the apathy and / or the relative unpopularity of his opponent. But he can totally convince otherwise unconvinced voters that no, they really, really don’t want him near the White House and that it means voting for Harris is a real good idea. Now they would probably still vote for him, in the same way that Democrats will vote for Harris despite some objections but the cult is not entirely fanatically devoted. The 'weird' part is that backlash when he becomes more moderate, not when he does something extreme. | ||
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oBlade
United States5449 Posts
On September 29 2024 14:16 EnDeR_ wrote: Relevant to the discussion, Trump continues his nuanced take on immigration He said She's letting in people who are going to walk into your house, break into your door, and they'll they'll do anything they want. They'll do anything they want. These people are animals. She's released people - these people are animals. Now they'll say, "oh that's a terrible thing for him to say," no no, these people are animals. These are stone cold killers, they're heartless, and they wake up the next morning and they don't even think about what they did the day before. These are real killers. These are real killers. These are the worst, these are people that have been in jail for many years. This vile monster was charged with holding a mother and daughter captive against their will and sexually assaulting them again and again and again. This animal crossed Kamala's wide open border. He really never said "vile animals" or "monsters," he called Coronel Zarate a monster, which is singular, and that's the only time he said vile, so he never said "vile animals." But it seems to be an apt description of who he was referring to. He may be wrong though as apart from ICE, there's no evidence that there are 13,000 convicted murderer illegal aliens loose, or if so, they may all have been accidental non-bystanders who got caught up in being convicted of murder, rather than stone-cold killers. On September 29 2024 14:16 EnDeR_ wrote: He then took it a notch higher with Harris: Don't know if this is supposed to be a notch higher than immigrants or a notch higher than he's talked about Harris previously but in either case it seems to be the same or lower notch depending on where you get notch standards. On September 29 2024 14:16 EnDeR_ wrote: Remember context is important. First he said Biden became mentally impaired, and then that Harris was born that way. For reference, "President" Biden was yesterday asked about strikes in Yemen, and he replied that he was going to settle the strike because he was in favor of collective bargaining. On September 29 2024 14:16 EnDeR_ wrote: I guess he got tired of holding back, thinking his current strategy is not working, and has finally gone full personal attack mode. God, that's awful. In the middle of the most cordial politics in American history, why would he suddenly stoop to this? After Democrats have been so nice to him for the last 8 years, how dare he literally say he's sick of Kamala's "bullshit." It's been so peaceful until now. In other news, Biden also said the federal government has no more resources to help with hurricane relief. My friend lost a house, the administration is AWOL. Yet the House Budget Committee just announced the US spends at least $150 or as much as $400 billion on illegal immigrants per year. FEMA's #1 strategic coal is "Instill equity (communism) as a foundation of emergency management." Not "help the US be ready to face disasters and emergencies" or anything non-revolutionary and boring like that. But okay, that's just one agency. Perhaps we can find help elsewhere. Let's look to the Tennessee National Guard. What are they up to? Headed to Fort Bliss in Texas to train for their deployment to the Middle East (Kuwait). I guess the name is kind of ambiguous. "National Guard" - but they don't tell you what nation. Though to be fair, it's normal for the national guard to get called up to help the rest of the military when times are tight. Why are times tight again? Is it because the US is at war? Depends on the standard, but not really. Just there's no soldiers, because recruitment has plummeted because nobody wants to sign up to an incompetent military whose goals are diversity and inclusion instead of defense and invasion. These are the DoD's explicit goals, of this administration. Competence and readiness have been forced so far in the backseat that they would be liable to cause a civil rights protest. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24787 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44104 Posts
oBlade: "Context is important. Trump said she was born that way." What kind of contextual explanation is that, oBlade? Why does that matter? | ||
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oBlade
United States5449 Posts
On September 30 2024 23:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: EnDeR_: "Trump called Harris mentally disabled." oBlade: "Context is important. Trump said she was born that way." What kind of contextual explanation is that, oBlade? It explains that he is using a comparison to call her even stupider than Biden, while honorably complimenting Biden on the fact that at least he managed to win votes, and he won a primary, whether Drumpf liked it or not, and had built up a base over decades. To me it seems like an interesting point because I do remember there was a time when Biden was able to differentiate an air strike and a labor strike. But I don't know that I've ever witnessed the same acuity from Harris. | ||
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