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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On July 26 2024 02:43 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2024 02:09 KT_Elwood wrote:
Joe Biden puts america first.
Meanwhile Trump's internal monologue record seems to be skipping, his latestet take on immigration is.. that Hannibal Lecter ...is real and ...his fellow inmates ...come across the southern border... or something
This is what we mean by TDS, people have to fall over themselves backwards to pretend not to understand basic English. 1) The claim is certain countries (deliberately) send released prisoners and mental patients to the US so they aren't a burden to their native governments. 2) Imagine you're making that statement in a dry, analytical way. Does anyone care? No. Convince anyone? No. Does anyone internalize the gravitas of it? No. Does it stick in anyone's memory? No. Now you have the chance to connect it to something people can relate to by example. Do most people have personal familiarity with mental institutions? No, partly because as is repeatedly brought up in discussions of homelessness, mental institutions have a much smaller role in the US than they used to. Then what example can you use people relate to? How can you paint a picture for them? A famous one from (pop) culture. Here are your choices. Hannibal Lecter, or Christopher Lloyd from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, or Leo in Shutter Island. Which one do you think most stirs up the correct emotions of fear and concern and apprehension in the imagination of your audience to get people to accept your point? How do you not get this? When he specifically asked if anyone saw the movie, what part of you thought going on the internet and saying "Look Trump thinks a movie is real" was a clever observation... 3) Now whether the claim as such is true or not, at least a kernel of truth is certain countries, for example Venezuela, do not take repatriation of their criminals when caught in the US. Neither are such criminals handled particularly well in the US, because they get caught and released and we have a bunch of "city's rights" sanctuary city insurrectionists who willfully subvert the enforcement of federal immigration law.
Using a fictional character to sell a political point is still very weak. The movie does not even make any attempt at being realistic. He should have dug up examples from real life, or the very least a story he recently picked up in some medium.
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This statement from Kamala about people protesting Netanyahu/genocide reads like it could have been written by George Bush.
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Or the exact statement that every American should be making. We should be condemning hate and loving a country that allows so much freedom. Kamala managed to do just that.
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oBlade you know fully well that Trump hasn't put thought into this.
He wants to inflame any issue about the border - and people coming in and do all the shitty work to prop up everything from agriculture, cleaning or construction aren't scary enough.
So they made up the term "migrant crime" to show.. what... that Trump didn't manage to build a wall and also did actively sabotage the bi-partisan border bill.
And it's still not enough
I like to believe that one day off prompter his brain jumped from "asylum seeker" to "mental asylum" and the only thing he can elaborate about that is by a TV/Movie reference he thinks everybody knows.. Silence of the Lambs is 35 years old.. the sequel is from 2001.
And neither Hannibal or Hopkins are dead. ("The great late Hannibal Lecter...those are real stories..you know")
Trump needs to inflame non-issues and blow them out of proportion...and while some countries do not want their criminals BACK in their country.. this doesn't mean that they send them to the border.
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On July 26 2024 03:47 RenSC2 wrote:Or the exact statement that every American should be making. We should be condemning hate and loving a country that allows so much freedom. Kamala managed to do just that.
This is the oblivious "patriotic" nonsense this sort of propaganda leads to (and is common among Republicans). The US is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world, but it's not even top 20 in freedom.
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Do american leftists confuse Hamas with progressives and IDF/Israel with opressive/conservatives?
Hamas is a terror organization...they strap bombs on kids....they launch missles from schools..
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On July 26 2024 04:27 KT_Elwood wrote:
Do american leftists confuse Hamas with progressives and IDF/Israel with opressive/conservatives?
Hamas is a terror organization...they strap bombs on kids....they launch missles from schools..
Lemme know where a functioning hospital is in Gaza.
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On July 26 2024 04:29 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2024 04:27 KT_Elwood wrote:
Do american leftists confuse Hamas with progressives and IDF/Israel with opressive/conservatives?
Hamas is a terror organization...they strap bombs on kids....they launch missles from schools.. Lemme know where a functioning hospital is in Gaza.
Both sides are awful. The people living in Palestine gets caught in the middle, killed, displaced and starve.
Being pro Hamas makes little sense. Being pro Israels current policy also makes little sense.
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KH seems to be siding with Israel in this conflict. She would probably lose too many important votes by showing too much sympathy for the Palistinian people. It is sad but understandable, now, it is all about winning the election, and the Netanyahu visit worked perfectly.
I hope she can do more to solve this terrible conflict if she is elected, though. The US has the power to preasure Israel, but refuses to use it because of religion. I know the initial attack by Hamas was terrible, but it will never be comparable to what Israel did in return. Unfortunately, the result will only be recruiting generations of future Hamas warriors, there is no way to win this with violence.
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That's a very reasonable statement by Harris; everyone who isn't insane hates Hamas, it doesn't matter how strongly you oppose Israel's war. You don't have to show support for Hamas just because you oppose Israel's war anymore than you would have to support Al Qaida if you were against the war in Irak.
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Hamas' ultimate goal is to wipe jewish life off the map in what they call palastine. There is no middle ground.
But it's basicly sandbox extremism since they rarely manage to even hurt an israeli civilian because of iron dome.
But Hamas forcing everyone in gaza to basicly live only to support their useless fight.
The Hamas leaders sit in exile..very rich, very cosy.
Firing a rocket from a building makes this building a legitimate target in war - this means if Hamas is sitting in a school, a kindergarten or hosptital... they paint the target on the roof by using it for war.
Calling israels policy "genocide" is just trying to play the damn victim card over and over and over again.. if IDF wanted to kill palastinians.. they could have easily done that in one sweep.
They haven't. If they bomb hybrid-civilian and combatant strucutures..there usually is a warning beforehand.
Is Netanjahu an asshole? YES. Are there racist asshole settlers, zionists and orthodox biggots? YES YES YES.
There is reason to believe that Netanjahu and his cohorts surpressed intel about preperation of that hideous October terrorist acts near the border - to justify this large scale invasion.
But even if this is true.. it comes down to this:
Do you deny the jews their own state in their ancestoral homeland - yes or no?
If no, than you can't be happy with hamas.. they need to be purged and the people need to be re-educated - like germany in 1945.
If yes, then you are likely an anti-semite.
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The statement is careful to talk about Hamas, not Palestinians.
support of Hamas is not acceptable, simple.
But support for the plight of Palestinians is not support of Hamas and one should not be confused with the other.
Same way that condemnation of Israel is not condemnation of Jewish people.
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It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again
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On July 26 2024 04:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2024 03:47 RenSC2 wrote:Or the exact statement that every American should be making. We should be condemning hate and loving a country that allows so much freedom. Kamala managed to do just that. This is the oblivious "patriotic" nonsense this sort of propaganda leads to (and is common among Republicans). The US is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world, but it's not even top 20 in freedom.
Oh, so wealth = freedom? I might agree with that, but it's certainly a self-own for a self-proclaimed socialist.
But the idea that the US isn't in the top 20 is based on some person's metrics. We could simply use another person's metrics and the US could come out #1. Freedom of speech? US is well above many of your top 20 in freedom. I might find it distasteful to burn an American flag or display terrorist flags/symbols, but I recognize the rights of people to do it and so does the US government. Freedom to bear arms? I'm pretty sure we're #1 in the Industrialized world. I'd actually prefer that we weren't on this one, but some people rate this freedom quite highly as it helps protect a lot of other freedoms. Pointing to some list is not as great of an argument as you think it is. Perhaps we should check out a Buzzfeed or Watchmojo top 10 most free countries?
But the real reason why I think we're such a great country is what we (haven't) done with our power. We haven't invaded every other country and declare their land as ours. We don't just go into Mexico and take all their resources or genocide them and turn it into a new state for us. When we do invade, we turn Autocracies into Democracies and thus turn the country over to its own people. We're the exception, not the rule in world history and we've made the world a significantly better place (even while acknowledging we're not perfect... Iraq, Vietnam).
We've also been subsidizing world peace for everyone else. Europe didn't have to pay to defend itself against Russia/USSR because the US was holding Russia in check. Some European countries weren't even meeting their NATO requirements. They were able to take that money and spend it on quality of life rather than defending themselves because they knew the US would do it for them.
Not being expansionist assholes and protecting other democracies while holding so much military power is why the USA has been the greatest country to ever exist. I can call it that even while acknowledging that the quality of life is better in some other countries.
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On July 26 2024 04:29 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2024 04:27 KT_Elwood wrote:
Do american leftists confuse Hamas with progressives and IDF/Israel with opressive/conservatives?
Hamas is a terror organization...they strap bombs on kids....they launch missles from schools.. Lemme know where a functioning hospital is in Gaza.
At the risk of turning this into the other thread, there likely aren't any functional hospitals in Gaza. Hamas uses those hospitals as military staging grounds and thus made them military targets. Gaza could have functional hospitals if Hamas was eliminated.
Trying to turn this back to US pol. It's perfectly okay to protest against Israel and the IDF. You can boo Netanyahu and I didn't like that he got a standing ovation by congress. You can scream "free Palestine", "Stop the bombing", and "end the settlements" all you want. However, those that are shouting "from the river to the sea" are demanding a genocide. That's extremely distasteful and should be called out. Maybe they don't know what they're actually calling for and need to be educated.
Those that support Hamas are supporting a terrorist organization with a goal of not just "freeing" Palestine, but of killing all Jews worldwide (and anyone who has helped them). Luckily they have little power, or else the world would be a much scarier place. They do not deserve support and it's extremely distasteful to give them any, even verbally.
Harris's message condemns pro-Hamas messages, not pro-Palestine. She also calls out antisemitism, hate, and violence. All things that should be called out. It's a good message overall.
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Would you or someone else mind summarizing (or posting an accurate article about) whatever recently happened with this whole Netanyahu visiting / people protesting (anti-Israel? pro-Palestine? pro-Hamas?) / burning flags / were people violent, etc.? I'd really like some context, if you don't mind 
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On July 26 2024 04:34 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2024 04:29 Gahlo wrote:On July 26 2024 04:27 KT_Elwood wrote:
Do american leftists confuse Hamas with progressives and IDF/Israel with opressive/conservatives?
Hamas is a terror organization...they strap bombs on kids....they launch missles from schools.. Lemme know where a functioning hospital is in Gaza. Both sides are awful. The people living in Palestine gets caught in the middle, killed, displaced and starve. Being pro Hamas makes little sense. Being pro Israels current policy also makes little sense.
My point, and granted I didn't articulate it, is that critique of protests on Israel's actions do a poor job of differentiating Hamas and non-Hamas Gazans. Asking if American leftists at large confuse Hamas with progressives is a dog shit take, and followed up by framing the IDF/Israel as oppressive/conservative as if there was any equivocation in misattrubutation is brain dead.
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On July 26 2024 05:39 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2024 04:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 26 2024 03:47 RenSC2 wrote:Or the exact statement that every American should be making. We should be condemning hate and loving a country that allows so much freedom. Kamala managed to do just that. This is the oblivious "patriotic" nonsense this sort of propaganda leads to (and is common among Republicans). The US is the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world, but it's not even top 20 in freedom. Oh, so wealth = freedom? + Show Spoiler + I might agree with that, but it's certainly a self-own for a self-proclaimed socialist.
But the idea that the US isn't in the top 20 is based on some person's metrics. We could simply use another person's metrics and the US could come out #1. Freedom of speech? US is well above many of your top 20 in freedom. I might find it distasteful to burn an American flag or display terrorist flags/symbols, but I recognize the rights of people to do it and so does the US government. Freedom to bear arms? I'm pretty sure we're #1 in the Industrialized world. I'd actually prefer that we weren't on this one, but some people rate this freedom quite highly as it helps protect a lot of other freedoms. Pointing to some list is not as great of an argument as you think it is. Perhaps we should check out a Buzzfeed or Watchmojo top 10 most free countries?
But the real reason why I think we're such a great country is what we (haven't) done with our power. We haven't invaded every other country and declare their land as ours. We don't just go into Mexico and take all their resources or genocide them and turn it into a new state for us. When we do invade, we turn Autocracies into Democracies and thus turn the country over to its own people. We're the exception, not the rule in world history and we've made the world a significantly better place (even while acknowledging we're not perfect... Iraq, Vietnam).
We've also been subsidizing world peace for everyone else. Europe didn't have to pay to defend itself against Russia/USSR because the US was holding Russia in check. Some European countries weren't even meeting their NATO requirements. They were able to take that money and spend it on quality of life rather than defending themselves because they knew the US would do it for them.
Not being expansionist assholes and protecting other democracies while holding so much military power is why the USA has been the greatest country to ever exist. I can call it that even while acknowledging that the quality of life is better in some other countries.
No, but it's clear which of the two the US prioritizes.
There are a variety of lists. While I'd say they're certainly biased toward western liberalism, even under those "freedom" metrics, the US performs poorly despite it's superfluous resources.
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United States41958 Posts
On July 26 2024 05:15 KT_Elwood wrote:
Hamas' ultimate goal is to wipe jewish life off the map in what they call palastine. There is no middle ground.
But it's basicly sandbox extremism since they rarely manage to even hurt an israeli civilian because of iron dome.
But Hamas forcing everyone in gaza to basicly live only to support their useless fight.
The Hamas leaders sit in exile..very rich, very cosy.
Firing a rocket from a building makes this building a legitimate target in war - this means if Hamas is sitting in a school, a kindergarten or hosptital... they paint the target on the roof by using it for war.
Calling israels policy "genocide" is just trying to play the damn victim card over and over and over again.. if IDF wanted to kill palastinians.. they could have easily done that in one sweep.
They haven't. If they bomb hybrid-civilian and combatant strucutures..there usually is a warning beforehand.
Is Netanjahu an asshole? YES. Are there racist asshole settlers, zionists and orthodox biggots? YES YES YES.
There is reason to believe that Netanjahu and his cohorts surpressed intel about preperation of that hideous October terrorist acts near the border - to justify this large scale invasion.
But even if this is true.. it comes down to this:
Do you deny the jews their own state in their ancestoral homeland - yes or no?
If no, than you can't be happy with hamas.. they need to be purged and the people need to be re-educated - like germany in 1945.
If yes, then you are likely an anti-semite.
Eh, there’s nuance within yes. Ancestral homeland is extremely problematic language. As a rule I deny everyone any kind of absolute right to live in their ancestral homeland. The consequences of the alternative are absurd. You should be able to live in the land of your birth. You shouldn’t be able to demand the land the Romans kicked you out of.
Also I deny Jews the right to their own state. All people have the right to a state that represents them, protects them, and so forth. Israelis can have an Israeli state. But the idea of a specifically Jewish state is problematic for the same reasons that would apply if it was just white Protestant nationalists. The words “Jewish state” are exclusionary which given how multiethnic Israel is not good.
There is nothing antisemitic about imposing an explicitly Jewish state existing on land that requires ethnic cleansing for it to exist.
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From a morale standpoint... yes ... religion isn't real and heritage shouldn't matter, so borders, races ..religions should mean nothing.
But we aren't there yet so you got to think practical.
![[image loading]](https://www.israel-trail.com/wp-content/uploads/fmedia_a/07/muslimisch.png)
Give jews their tiny ethnostate - which already is pluralistic and self reflected. The need for a "safe" home that's not backstabbing like europe is evident after the holocaust.
In my opinion purge Hams/Hezbollah/etc. Re-Educate Gaza/westbank and hand out israeli passports to everyone who has learned that religion should be a spiritual thing - not a political tool.
This will also purge the likes of netanjahu.. and oust orthodox hardliners from Israel.
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EPT
