EPT"If you give a mouse a cookie, he's gonna want a glass of milk."
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4142
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
riotjune
United States3394 Posts
"If you give a mouse a cookie, he's gonna want a glass of milk." | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23469 Posts
On February 13 2024 04:33 Gorsameth wrote: that is not possible in a 2 party system where one party has gone insane. The other one isn't far behind them, demanding people vote for a guy engaged in what his own voters identify as genocide. To save a "democracy" that its own defenders insist leaves people with no choice on who to vote for. | ||
|
Sadist
United States7291 Posts
On February 13 2024 05:31 GreenHorizons wrote: The other one isn't far behind them, demanding people vote for a guy engaged in what his own voters identify as genocide. To save a "democracy" that its own defenders insist leaves people with no choice on who to vote for. Primary him and win. Thats where you get the change you want. The tea party and Trump won primaries. You dont torpedo the election because you cant win a primary. Thats not how you lurch the party left. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On February 13 2024 06:25 Sadist wrote: Primary him and win. Thats where you get the change you want. The tea party and Trump won primaries. You dont torpedo the election because you cant win a primary. Thats not how you lurch the party left. Primary who, Biden? I haven't followed this thread for long but by now I think I know enough of GH's posting habits to say I don't think they has showed any particular allegiance to the Democrat party. Why should they participate in the primary process of a party they have no affiliation with? GH wants some kind of revolution. I'm not sure what that looks like but it's probably not through the Democrat primary elections. It also makes their whole spiel about "I can't fathom voting for someone aiding and abetting genocide" entirely moot. Even if Biden did everything they wanted in the Middle East they would just move on to the next reason they could not possibly fathom voting for Biden over. The insane part is how people repeatedly engage them over and over with the exact same "lesser of two evils" argument as if that hasn't been fruitlessly debated every few weeks for years. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26036 Posts
On February 13 2024 07:05 JimmiC wrote: When I was growing up there was a big conservative movement to end tariffs create free trade as tariffs were a tax on their own consumers and not that efficient of a tax because there was tons of admin costs for both the government and businesses upping costs much more than the extra “profit” the government got. The conservatives won, costs went down, international trade went off (as a Canadian a big thing we noticed over a short period of time is all the products and flavours of things we could only get in the US we’re available here), the economies of the world flourished. Now local manufacturing was hurt, so it was not sun shine and rainbows for all but until Trump I don’t think anyone thought it would make sense to go back. Because it is not like you can flip a switch on and get your manufacturing back. Perhaps the Dems could really make hay on this point. Unless a Republican wants to argue how increasing costs and red tape is good for the economy and American people. The other reason Trump is bad for the economy is that he is completely unpredictable (in many ways but tariffs are a big one) hard to make large commitments to infrastructure required for long term investments when you never know when or in what the next tariff will be. Correct. Don’t know how impactful it will be in terms of argumentation mind, but it’s just correct. This modern incarnation of this Trumpian populism is very ‘have you cake and eat it’. They want all the benefits of globalised capitalism, but not the job losses from outsourcing. Those cheap Chinese goods without Chinese being a competing international force etc. Extol the benefits of the free market and competition, until they lose out in said free market and then it’s let’s do protectionism. I’ll note I’m not necessarily arguing in favour of unfettered free market, free trade capitalism to the expense of everything else, as my post history would probably hint at. But a socialist is a socialist, they’re not going to. The issue you have here is avowed capitalists not liking the consequences of capitalism. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26036 Posts
On February 13 2024 07:12 JimmiC wrote: If you were able to become a Chinese citizen and the CCP decided to do an actual election with them vs a liberal democracy party. Would the CCP be off your ballot because of their ongoing massive ethnic cleansing with th Uighurs? How about how they committed ethnic cleansing and genocide on Tibet? The forced mass migrations of people when ever they decide to do a mega project like their massive dams? I suspect you would still vote CCP for a whole host of reasons. Hope this gives you some insight on why even if people agreed with you that Israel was ethnic cleansing and Biden was supporting it half way around the world, that it would not be disqualifying for them when it is not disqualifying for you when a government does it as part of its long term colonial strategy of one China. Even further to my point in my example the liberal democracy could promise to stop ethnic cleansing’s and I still doubt they would get your vote. Well that’s absolutely out of left field and apropos of nothing. I mean it’s not as if I haven’t asked multiple times already but I’m curious why you’re absolutely fine to use the ethnic cleansing label on China’s activities whenever it comes up, indeed the even stronger designation of genocide here, but resolutely refuse to accept the term as it pertains to Israel. You really value liberal democracy man, fair enough, but you’re as biased on that as GH is on his flavour of socialism. You’ll accuse him of handwaving Chinese policy on an ideological basis while doing the exact same thing on Israel because they’re a liberal democracy. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26036 Posts
On February 13 2024 08:06 JimmiC wrote: That is an awful question, but I’ll answer it anyway Because it meets all the criteria of the definition and is universally agreed on. Now on the mass deportations I was speaking about I didn’t call them ethnic cleansing because it does not meet the definition. I’m not a fan of false equivalence. And you completely missed the point. I’m pointing out that other people getting ethnically cleansed is way down the list of peoples voting criteria, so much so that even when it’s certain it is not disqualifying. So his argument which he has been beating a dead horse with to the point there is nothing left of the carcass that people should not vote Biden does not hold water. I picked China because they are a government he support in spite of what he’s saying is disqualifying in an effort to get him to think, maybe this is not an effective argument and move on. There is a chance he just wants to trash Biden, America and Israel and is not trying to make a compelling argument. But I thought I’d give him the benefit of the doubt. And I don’t really value liberal democracy, it’s not even my political system of choice. If you could please stop making false assumptions about me, then making up negative stories on those assumptions it would be much appreciated. That’s not really what you said though, the whole post read like a personal dig at GH. There are other posts who made precisely the ‘do people care though?’ point, and that point alone. Oddly enough I didn’t jump on those. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Gahlo
United States35162 Posts
On February 13 2024 05:09 riotjune wrote: How much you want to bet even if Biden somehow manages to actually pass everything that Bernie wants, you're still not going to vote for him? In fact, you're just going to keep asking for more. After all, there's no limit to how high your unicorn can go, if you add wings onto it maybe it'll fly and you can look down on the rest of us living in reality with a smug satisfaction with yourself. Trying to satisfy these people is a fool's errand because their heads are in the clouds, and they'll never be satisfied. "If you give a mouse a cookie, he's gonna want a glass of milk." I can guarantee that I'm voting for Biden because I live in Pennsylvania and don't have the luxury of living in a safely blue state. Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it. | ||
|
Fleetfeet
Canada2603 Posts
On February 13 2024 08:06 JimmiC wrote: That is an awful question, but I’ll answer it anyway Because it meets all the criteria of the definition and is universally agreed on. Now on the mass deportations I was speaking about I didn’t call them ethnic cleansing because it does not meet the definition. I’m not a fan of false equivalence. And you completely missed the point. I’m pointing out that other people getting ethnically cleansed is way down the list of peoples voting criteria, so much so that even when it’s certain it is not disqualifying. So his argument which he has been beating a dead horse with to the point there is nothing left of the carcass that people should not vote Biden does not hold water. I picked China because they are a government he support in spite of what he’s saying is disqualifying in an effort to get him to think, maybe this is not an effective argument and move on. There is a chance he just wants to trash Biden, America and Israel and is not trying to make a compelling argument. But I thought I’d give him the benefit of the doubt. And I don’t really value liberal democracy, it’s not even my political system of choice. If you could please stop making false assumptions about me, then making up negative stories on those assumptions it would be much appreciated. I understand what you mean about beating a dead horse regarding "Aiding and abetting an ethnic cleansing campaign". I feel like I've read that phrase 30 times in the last few pages. That said, GH's lament (as I best understand it) is that there is no option. What the unacceptable thing actually is (and I agree, 'foreign country ethnic cleansing' doesn't rank very highly on your average person's day to day priority) isn't relevant, I think. The idea GH is attempting to portray is that there is no 'unacceptable' in the current US political system because ultimately you're powerless anyways. To GH the idea of voting for someone aiding and abetting an ethnic cleansing campaign is wholly morally repugnant. For most, the valuation proceeds from there to 'okay but other party is MORE morally repugnant' where GH is expressing frustration that the system is so broken there is no bar for 'unacceptable' to actually mean anything. Everyone else's immediate response is 'Yeah but the other guy is MORE unacceptable' as though 'unacceptable' is a floating point value, and not binary. GH, obviously, is welcome to correct me. I won't and traditionally haven't ever understood his position completely, and assume I'm still wrong now. Changing it to a hypothetical Chinese government where GH is voting for two hypothetical Chinese parties shouldn't change the core point : Unacceptable should mean unacceptable, not "Unacceptable but you have to accept it because otherwise the communists win" or something. What I hope to illustrate in this, despite my undoubtedly also being wrong about GH's position, is that the last line in your post is deeply hypocritical. Of all people, you can't be starting a dialogue with a person who justly refuses to interact with you based on your shared history, interpret their position as stupid and simple, and then turn around and accuse someone else of having an uncharitable interpretation of your position and negative attitude towards you. Further, I do want to say I appreciate the times lately when you've been extremely rigid in your posting and stuck to the actual topics. You are not a bad poster. Lately you've been frustratingly hypocritical and abrasive, as though you've learned all the worst habits of the worst posters and weaponized those habits for not being banworthy. I for one miss 'old Jimmi' when you didn't just assume everyone was trying to be an asshole to you, and in turn be an asshole to everyone. | ||
|
BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On February 13 2024 12:12 Gahlo wrote: I can guarantee that I'm voting for Biden because I live in Pennsylvania and don't have the luxury of living in a safely blue state. Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it. Vote for who you want, your vote isn't going to swing the entire election | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain18117 Posts
On February 13 2024 15:05 BlackJack wrote: Vote for who you want, your vote isn't going to swing the entire election This seems dangerously close to saying that their vote doesn't matter. In many states that's almost certainly true: there's plenty of people who show up and mindlessly color either the (D) or (R) box and voting otherwise has no impact whatsoever, but in Pennsylvania it came down to a very tiny margin. A few thousand people voting for Jill Stein or Robert Kennedy could be the difference between Trump or Biden in the White House. The difference between 2020 and 2016 was basically just a few less people staying home and a slight percentage more voting for Biden than for Clinton. Now I don't think it's wrong to vote 3rd party, and in fact it could be a really great way to show you definitely don't agree with what the Democrats or Republicans are doing with the ppwer they have! I am all for sending that message if that is what you want to do with your vote, but especially in a swing state like Pennsylvania that is absolutely a vote that matters. Maybe risking 4 years of Trump to force the Democrats to reconsider their position is a worthy risk. But it's something Gahlo, and every other voter needs to consider for themselves. And in a swing state that risk is obviously a lot larger than in GreenHorizon's Washington or your own California. I say this with the luxury of living in a country with proportional representation, so when I vote for a 3rd party, I am pretty confident that my vote will help put someone in parliament who will voice ideas I (mostly) agree with, and I seldom feel the need to "vote strategically": if the big parties can't cut it, maybe the small party I voted for will become part of the coalition, and represent me far better than if I had cast my vote for the big party in the first place. But the US doesn't have that system. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21953 Posts
On February 13 2024 15:05 BlackJack wrote: And if 80.000 people think that then their vote did matter and Trump wins the state.Vote for who you want, your vote isn't going to swing the entire election In the big picture no single persons vote matters, elections are not won on 1 vote. But its never just 1 person that thinks that, and so big movements can happen. | ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States45050 Posts
On February 13 2024 18:57 Gorsameth wrote: And if 80.000 people think that then their vote did matter and Trump wins the state. In the big picture no single persons vote matters, elections are not won on 1 vote. But its never just 1 person that thinks that, and so big movements can happen. Well said, especially in regards to a potential swing state like Pennsylvania. We're not exactly talking California or Texas here. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28709 Posts
| ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States45050 Posts
 Calls out both Biden and Trump pretty extensively. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
| ||
