EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4081
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Excludos
Norway7998 Posts
On October 07 2023 22:09 Liquid`Drone wrote: The framing that they just want to be left alone while continuing to encroach on palestinerne territory is absolutely ridiculous. It's insane how people are just willing to completely disregard context. That they are being attacked by rocket barrages and terrorism on the daily is seemingly unimportant. If Sweden did that to Norway, we'd be doing a lot more than Israel is in regards to counter-aggression. It's like if I keep punching you in the face, and you push me away, suddenly everyone around us goers "omfg how could you push?!". You answer with "I just want to be left alone!" and then people laugh and go "Shouldn't be pushing then!" If Palestine doesn't want Israel to keep pushing, then maybe they should seek peace? Or at the very least meet at the table. Israel doesn't want the occupied territories, and have numerous times claimed willingness to give them back | ||
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Excludos
Norway7998 Posts
On October 07 2023 23:36 Acrofales wrote: Their problem is that any option for a two-state solution that Israel is willing to discuss puts Jerusalem firmly in Israeli control. And any solution the Palestinians are willing to discuss puts Jerusalem into at least a shared context or fully under Palestine control. So two-state solutions always break over that. And I think the ship has sailed on any one-state solutions. So... yeah. E: there's about 50 Israel threads already. A few would probably qualify for promoting to megathread. But apparently the last time anybody made an Israel thread was 2013. Think it's just been discussed here or in the Euro thread since then. Yeah, Jerusalem is a problem. Nothing can ever be solved when extreme religion is at the helm. And unfortunately, that's both sides in this conflict And yeah, agree. This is a bit off topic for a US politics thread. A megathread should probably be made, especially as this is clearly a conflict that has and is going to continue to escalate. I don't see Israel not doing a massive invasion following today's events | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
On October 08 2023 02:17 Excludos wrote: It's insane how people are just willing to completely disregard context. That they are being attacked by rocket barrages and terrorism on the daily is seemingly unimportant. If Sweden did that to Norway, we'd be doing a lot more than Israel is in regards to counter-aggression. It's like if I keep punching you in the face, and you push me away, suddenly everyone around us goers "omfg how could you push?!". You answer with "I just want to be left alone!" and then people laugh and go "Shouldn't be pushing then!" If Palestine doesn't want Israel to keep pushing, then maybe they should seek peace? Or at the very least meet at the table. Israel doesn't want the occupied territories, and have numerous times claimed willingness to give them back Again, phrasing Israel as a) just the retaliator and b) gentle is entirely off the mark, absurdly so. Israel's retaliation has already killed more people than the current numbers for the attack (although to be fair that number is likely to increase a lot), and they haven't even started retaliating yet. Further, the notion that 'Israel doesn't want the occupied territories' also seems extremely inconsistent with them occupying the territories, what the hell? Anyway: I'm not arguing against an 'Israel has a right to exist and thus also to defend itself' mindset. If you wanna side with Israel in this conflict, that's fine. I'll disagree, but it's fine. I have no problems acknowledging that a) while the way Israel got hold of Israel was majorly problematic, it's not something you can really judge their current population for, and they happen to live there, and that b) Hamas is not interested in a mutually agreeable peace. However, you seem to, for whatever reason, not acknowledge that the settlements are majorly problematic. This basically puts on at odds with everyone other than the far right in the US, out of western groups/countries. It's not like the settlements are a policy of the past either - the settler population has grown by almost 100k in the past 5 years. (Significantly more between 2018 and 2022 than between 2014 and 2018.) Also, I think the Israeli government would actually be offended if you characterized their response to being punched in the face 'pushing away the aggressor' - they very clearly have a record of stronger retaliation with the goal of deterring future 'terrorist' action. And hey - a coherent argument very different from the one you're making could actually be made; that their policy has been successful, because aside from this, it's been a long time since Palestine really succeeded in killing a lot of Israelis. Since 2008, 20 palestinians have been killed for every Israeli. That's not 'pushing away the guy who keeps punching you in the face', it's murdering a guy who throws a stone in your direction. Which is actually more than just a metaphor in this particular instance. (sources + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21508 Posts
Please take the Israel-Palestine discussion here maybe? https://tl.net/forum/general/573090-things-arent-peaceful-in-palestine | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5496 Posts
On October 08 2023 02:17 Excludos wrote: It's insane how people are just willing to completely disregard context. That they are being attacked by rocket barrages and terrorism on the daily is seemingly unimportant. If Sweden did that to Norway, we'd be doing a lot more than Israel is in regards to counter-aggression. It's like if I keep punching you in the face, and you push me away, suddenly everyone around us goers "omfg how could you push?!". You answer with "I just want to be left alone!" and then people laugh and go "Shouldn't be pushing then!" If Palestine doesn't want Israel to keep pushing, then maybe they should seek peace? Or at the very least meet at the table. Israel doesn't want the occupied territories, and have numerous times claimed willingness to give them back He's talking about the illegal settlements, not the retaliatory attacks by Israel. But overall, I agree. While Israel is adding fuel to the fire by refusing to stop the illegal settlements, we can't overlook the context of this conflict. Namely, when the Arabs thought they had the upper hand, they tried to wipe Israel off the map on several occasions (the Palestinian Arabs were onboard). They chose violence over negotiated peace. On the other hand, once the situation shifted in favour of Israel, Israel was open to accepting several different peace proposals. Those were rejected by the Palestinians, who were unhappy with some of the terms. They were unwilling to accept that their negotiating position was getting progressively weaker, and they chose violence again. I think people siding with Palestine in this conflict are not holding Israel and Palestine to the same standard. If Israel acted the way the Arabs did, they would've wiped out the Palestinians a long time ago. @Drone I would hold off with such claims. The number of casualties on the Palestinian side come from the Palestinian officials, i.e. Hamas... | ||
KwarK
United States42251 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5496 Posts
On October 08 2023 03:16 KwarK wrote: Wiping Israel off the map doesn’t necessarily mean killing every Israeli. The third Reich was wiped off of the map, for example. Israel is the state, not the people. They conflate the two deliberately. Because the Jews are absolutely thriving in the Muslim countries. ;-) | ||
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KwarK
United States42251 Posts
On October 08 2023 03:22 maybenexttime wrote: Because the Jews are absolutely thriving in the Muslim countries. ;-) They were the last time there was a Palestine. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5496 Posts
On October 08 2023 03:38 KwarK wrote: They were the last time there was a Palestine. You mean under the Roman Empire? ;-) | ||
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KwarK
United States42251 Posts
On October 08 2023 03:52 maybenexttime wrote: You mean under the Roman Empire? ;-) No | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15466 Posts
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On October 08 2023 03:11 maybenexttime wrote: He's talking about the illegal settlements, not the retaliatory attacks by Israel. But overall, I agree. While Israel is adding fuel to the fire by refusing to stop the illegal settlements, we can't overlook the context of this conflict. Namely, when the Arabs thought they had the upper hand, they tried to wipe Israel off the map on several occasions (the Palestinian Arabs were onboard). They chose violence over negotiated peace. On the other hand, once the situation shifted in favour of Israel, Israel was open to accepting several different peace proposals. Those were rejected by the Palestinians, who were unhappy with some of the terms. They were unwilling to accept that their negotiating position was getting progressively weaker, and they chose violence again. I think people siding with Palestine in this conflict are not holding Israel and Palestine to the same standard. If Israel acted the way the Arabs did, they would've wiped out the Palestinians a long time ago. @Drone I would hold off with such claims. The number of casualties on the Palestinian side come from the Palestinian officials, i.e. Hamas... The Israelís assasinated a leader because they did not like the peace negotiations. They also do everything they can to rewrite history so the young generation does not learn about the peace process in the 90s. The Israelís proceeded to don't give a shit about treaties, stealing more and more territory, because they could, and the US has their back no matter what. I would be very careful about blaming the Palestinians for this. What happens now is pure desperation, there is no other way forward, and they don't have anything to offer in negotiations. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2599 Posts
On October 08 2023 17:19 Slydie wrote: The Israelís assasinated a leader because they did not like the peace negotiations. They also do everything they can to rewrite history so the young generation does not learn about the peace process in the 90s. The Israelís proceeded to don't give a shit about treaties, stealing more and more territory, because they could, and the US has their back no matter what. I would be very careful about blaming the Palestinians for this. What happens now is pure desperation, there is no other way forward, and they don't have anything to offer in negotiations. By Israelis, you mean ultra conservative nutjobs. It's not like the Israelis have a monopoly on conservative nutjobs, as this thread has proven over and over again. | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On October 08 2023 21:03 gobbledydook wrote: By Israelis, you mean ultra conservative nutjobs. It's not like the Israelis have a monopoly on conservative nutjobs, as this thread has proven over and over again. True, but Netanjahu needed more than extremistnut nutjobs to win elections, and working to erase the Oslo process seems like a national process. The association was by an extremist who is not representative for the country, but it has to be one of the most successful acts of terrorism ever in terms of achieving the desired outcome: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17915 Posts
On October 08 2023 22:02 Slydie wrote: True, but Netanjahu needed more than extremistnut nutjobs to win elections, and working to erase the Oslo process seems like a national process. The association was by an extremist who is not representative for the country, but it has to be one of the most successful acts of terrorism ever in terms of achieving the desired outcome: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin I don't know why you call it terrorism. Political assassination or murder: yes. But not every act of violence is terrorism and this was fairly obviously the act of an individual and his friends against a specific person. I don't think John Wilkes Booth was a terrorist for assassinating Lincoln, nor were Lee Harvey Oswald for assassinating Kennedy, or Volkert van der Graaf for assassinating Pim Fortuyn. Sometimes political assassinations are acts of terrorism, for instance ETA assassinating Carrero Blanco, was clearly more about the terror it created than about the specific target. But in the case of Rabin it was quite clearly about the person and what that person stood for and could achieve. | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On October 09 2023 00:25 Acrofales wrote: I don't know why you call it terrorism. Political assassination or murder: yes. But not every act of violence is terrorism and this was fairly obviously the act of an individual and his friends against a specific person. I don't think John Wilkes Booth was a terrorist for assassinating Lincoln, nor were Lee Harvey Oswald for assassinating Kennedy, or Volkert van der Graaf for assassinating Pim Fortuyn. Sometimes political assassinations are acts of terrorism, for instance ETA assassinating Carrero Blanco, was clearly more about the terror it created than about the specific target. But in the case of Rabin it was quite clearly about the person and what that person stood for and could achieve. Maybe there terrorism is not the most accurate description, but it was a very successful attack by an extremist with a clear agenda. For both Palestine and the peace process in general, it has only gone downhill since then. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
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TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2616 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21508 Posts
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