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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3973

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
June 30 2023 14:00 GMT
#79441
--- Nuked ---
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3187 Posts
June 30 2023 14:11 GMT
#79442
On June 30 2023 18:31 gobbledydook wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2023 13:21 ChristianS wrote:
On June 30 2023 11:41 Introvert wrote:
On June 30 2023 10:44 ChristianS wrote:
On June 30 2023 08:04 BlackJack wrote:
On June 30 2023 07:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On June 30 2023 04:48 BlackJack wrote:
It's still perfectly legal to favor poor students on college admissions which should disproportionately benefit black/hispanic/native american applicants. I expect everyone to point out how the court's ruling is going to harm minorities while conveniently ignoring that the group most penalized by the university admissions process, Asians, are themselves a minority.


What if someone didn't overreach by saying "[all] minorities" and forgetting that Asians are a minority? In other words, what would you think about the assertion "The court's ruling is going to harm Black, Hispanic, and Native American applicants?" Or even if they just picked one of those three minorities to focus on?


No problem with that. I believe Sotomayor uses the term "underrepresented minorities" in her dissent. I think the blanket term "minorities" should be avoided in this discussion because there are minorities are both sides of the lawsuit. Obviously I worded my post very poorly.

“AAPI students are harmed by affirmative action” is also very much disputed, by the way. My understanding is that the district court (responsible for findings of fact in the case) determined that race consciousness in admissions did *not* adversely affect AAPI students. Several of the factors the court left in place (legacy, wealth, etc.) probably *do* adversely affect AAPI students, and Harvard has a weird “personal rating” that they’ll probably be allowed to keep doing which probably does adversely affect AAPI students. Of course, presumably people also disagree with the district court’s determination, but it’s not open-and-shut.

Ultimately, “what about Asian kids, huh?” feels like more of a conservative troll than a sincere argument. “Affirmative action” was and is a powerful rationalization for white parents when their kids don’t get into the school they think they should have, and officially banning affirmative action won’t change that. I know from experience! I went to UCSD after getting rejected from UCLA and Berkeley, and my mom was sure it was because of affirmative action, despite CA having already banned it in the 90’s. Parents will still convince themselves those sneaky admissions officers are smuggling in race somehow. Meanwhile people will also convince themselves any successful Black people they encounter probably don’t *really* deserve everything they’ve got.

I mean, just a page ago Introvert called this a *top 5* legal issue for conservatives. Top 5? Really? Even limiting ourselves to Constitutional issues, we can’t come up with 5 other issues more important than schools trying to give opportunities to underrepresented minorities?

But whatever, mediocre white kids will now have an easier time getting into absurdly expensive universities, either because they were better at multiple choice exams, or because their dad went there and that’s still an acceptable admissions criterion. I’m white, don’t have kids, and have no plans to apply to any colleges again in my life, so I’m not in a very strong position to assess the importance of this. I just wish if conservatives were so certain affirmative action was so unpopular, they’d do their bans by democratic means rather than getting their 6 unelected robed-kings to enact it by fiat while lecturing us about the “color-blind” original Constitution.


I remember during oral argument that there was arguing over the lower court's finding, because the conservative justices couldn't get a good answer from the schools' counsel as to how it wasn't discrimination that Asians with a certain academic performance had such terrible odds at admittance compared to other minority students.

I don't follow this that closely but from my understanding, it's totally unambiguous that AAPI students have been discriminated against in admissions, it's just not actually clear that a SCOTUS-level ban on factoring in race actually does anything about that. I mean, if on the one hand you have Black, Latino, etc. students who are benefiting from AA and on the other, white students benefiting from systemic advantages like legacy admissions, it's not hard to see how AAPI students would wind up underrepresented by comparison. It doesn't mean the race factor was discriminating *against* them, it just means they weren't benefiting from it, and didn't have the other advantages white students have to offset it.

I mean, my guess (for what little it's worth) is that factoring race into admissions was enormously beneficial to the upper-middle tiers of Black and Latino students, fairly detrimental to the lower-middle tiers of white students, and probably a little detrimental on the margin to students of minority groups that weren't being favored. IIRC that's what the evidence showed when CA banned it: massive drop in representation of Blacks and Latinos, massive rise in representation of whites, and a small but measurable increase for AAPI.

What feels more like a troll is this characterization of the situation, "we can’t come up with 5 other issues more important than schools trying to give opportunities to underrepresented minorities?" Now obviously I don't expect everyone to keep up on everything but affirmative action has been a hot button issue for decades now, that's why CA banned it in the 90s and why we overwhelming voted to keep it banned 2 years ago (another bit of support for my theory that CA voters are at least slightly more sane than the people they elect to represent them). And many other states have also already banned it. So this isn't just a SCOTUS thing, but AA was one of those examples of things that conservatives see as blatantly unconstitutional/illegal, a product of a previous era of the Court where the justices' desired results mattered more than the law and, because college admissions are finite resource, a unjust practice that hurt deserving students. That doesn't mean admissions departments don't do a run around based on personal essays and the like, but this is a thing most people object to.

Not sure why "it's been a hot-button issue for decades" is responsive. So? Once upon a time conservatives liked to wax poetic about how detrimental it is for everybody to want a SCOTUS ruling in their favor on every hot-button issue. Judicial activism! Legislating from the bench! Aren't we supposed to be a *democracy*?

Fundamentally, if a school applies a set of criteria to their applicant pool, and then finds that their criteria showed a racial bias, they could conclude one of two things:

1) The criteria are unbiased; students from some races are just more qualified on average.
2) The criteria are biased; students from some races are systematically under-ranked.

Advocate for whichever position you want! But if a school decides the latter, and adjusts their admissions accordingly, that's *unconstitutional*? I mean, come on.

I'm not even an AA advocate. I suspect that in a lot of cases, the skills that allow someone to succeed on the usual academic achievement metrics are the same skills that allow them to succeed at an Ivy League school. There probably is some amount of systematic bias at work, but it isn't necessarily gonna help to take the minority student who's been systematically undervalued in high school and say "Hey, how'd you like to take out hundreds of thousands in loans to go be systematically undervalued at Harvard University!!!" [cue canned applause]. It just kind of reeks to me of the sort of thing well-meaning white liberals do to "help" because they feel guilty about George Floyd or w/e.

But it seems ridiculous to me to say it's *unconstitutional*. It's a legitimate policy to address a legitimate societal issue. If a state wants to ban it, fine, but if another state wants to do it, John Roberts should fuck off and let them do it.

(Your mom could still be right! Though UCSD is a fine school anyway...if you weren't planning on grad school at like a Top 5 the value of a Cal or UCLA undergrad in the sciences, which from what I recall you are in, is probably similar to San Diego.)

As for "mediocre white kids will now have an easier time getting into absurdly expensive universities, either because they were better at multiple choice exams," my understanding that is that standardized tests are actually very useful at finding disadvantaged students who would do well at a school even if the rest of their application might not show. But either way, many of these schools are now dropping the SAT. So instead of studying for a test with understandable and more practicable criteria "mediocre white kids" can just pay to have their essays written instead! wonderful.
edit: and I think the case for getting rid of, or at least curtailing, legacy admissions is strong but that wasn't the issue before the court and I'm not sure it even could be.

This is kind of a classic example of how eliminating AA isn't actually going to help at all with white people feeling aggrieved. At the heart of this issue is the fact that college admissions is one of the key moments in someone's life when they're going to either feel like they got their shot or didn't. It's a pivotal moment that at least feels like it'll determine the course of the rest of your life. It's like when Mom and Dad die, and the kids have to decide how to split millions of dollars of inheritance. Of course it's going to get ugly a lot of the time.

Nobody can be expected to objectively assess their own merit, and normally they don't have to, but when they system explicitly does an assessment and finds them wanting, of course people are going to look for reasons they were unfairly slighted. White conservatives have been telling minorities for years "Just work hard, focus on yourself, and try to excel instead of trying to prove you're the victim of some systemic bias;" but when their kid doesn't get into the school they wanted, oh Lord! oh Jesus! The unfairness of it all! Racism, that's what it is, racism! How is a white guy supposed to catch a break in this world?

Of course, I don't really think the system is good at assessing merit in the first place. So it's not so much that they're *wrong* in saying they weren't fairly weighed and measured. It's that they only *noticed* it was unfair when it had possibly disadvantaged them for a moment, and they're almost guaranteed to forget it again as soon as they get in some place else, graduate in 6 years, and land a job at the firm anyway because their dad called in a favor.

Advantage is a relative concept.
If everyone but you has an advantage, then you have a disadvantage. Not hard to grasp.

Yeah, but that’s kind of my point. If an Asian student needs to be in the 95th percentile to get in on average, and a Black student only needs to be in the 75th percentile to be in, and a white student only needs to be in the 85th percentile to get in, then statistically it looks like AAPI students are being discriminated against. But it’s entirely possible that without affirmative action those numbers go to, say, 94th/94th/80th (respectively), because the white students will continue to benefit from various other factors, while the Black students were benefiting from AA, but eliminating the latter doesn’t actually help AAPI students all that much.

Those “other factors” are likely where the discrimination against AAPI students is actually helping. In Harvard’s case, for instance, they do a “personality rating” that, while nominally neutral about race, apparently systematically underrates Asians, on average. One motivation for AA is to try to compensate for systemic biases in your decision-making and correct for them, but of course, that’s apparently a violation of the United States Constitution; the Founders have shambles from their graves to tell us that if Latinos consistently score worse on our metrics, we are duty-bound to assume that’s just revealing a truth about Latinos and admit them less accordingly. This, by the way, in the name of “equality.”

Which also means stuff like the “personality rating” is fine. So is favoring family of alumni. So is using tests like the SAT that give a big edge to kids with time and money for test prep courses. Facially neutral metrics with disparate racial impact are fine; identifying and compensating for those disparate impacts is Unconstitutional. It remains to be seen how AAPI students will actually fare under the new rules, but don’t be surprised if all those new slots mostly go to white folks and AAPI students still seem to need a higher GPA than anybody else to get in.

@BJ and Intro: the quote chains are getting unwieldy so I won’t go into depth on your posts (I’d probably just repeat myself anyway), but two points BJ raised:

Also is there a lot of evidence that African-Americans benefited from affirmative action? Malcolm Gladwell has a chapter in his book David and Goliath that details how blacks often struggle after getting into better colleges they aren’t as qualified for because they go from being at the top of their class to being at the bottom of their class. They are far more likely to struggle and dropout if memory serves me correctly. Not to mention having to deal with negative stigma of people thinking you are less qualified because you’re an “affirmative action hire.”

I dunno about Gladwell’s book, but as I already said to Intro, I’m not even a big fan of AA for some similar reasons. Maybe minority students’ merit is systematically underestimated in high school, but if it’s gonna be systematically underestimated in college too, “correcting” for it in admissions is not necessarily helping them. They’ll take out a bunch of loans to do it and have nothing to show for it if they don’t graduate, and that’s already a decently likely outcome for the students who get in without benefiting from AA. Sending a Black kid with a 2.9 GPA to Harvard feels like one of those well-meaning white liberal forms of “helping” that probably has more to do with self-soothing than actually trying to effect positive change in the world.

But as for the “negative stigma” bit: Intro has already demonstrated just how easily white people will still convince themselves they aren’t getting what they deserve and Black people don’t deserve what they get. Yes, it probably sucks when shitty White people look at your skin color and assume you lack merit, but that will almost certainly continue unabated so it’s not really relevant here.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44139 Posts
June 30 2023 15:01 GMT
#79443
On June 30 2023 22:41 dankobanana wrote:
This ruling makes no sense. The universities discriminate based on money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences

They should have banned any discrimination and asked for a merit based system implementation.

Athletic recruiting should also be a thing of the past
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_recruiting


I wrote this yesterday about "merit-based systems":

I think you may be misunderstanding what our "merit-based system" is... That phrase typically assumes that everyone starts on an equal playing field, without considering the context of socioeconomic status or race or sex or anything else, and that all you need to succeed is to work as hard as anyone else, and just pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Work ethic *and* societal factors both have an impact on success, and... things are much more nuanced than just looking at merit.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13851 Posts
June 30 2023 15:06 GMT
#79444
The Supreme Court knocked down student debt forgiveness and are allowing lgbtq discrimination again.

Wasn't expecting anything good to happen with how rigged the court is now and I can't wait to see them moan about people not considering it legitimate anymore.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15588 Posts
June 30 2023 15:09 GMT
#79445
As I always say: There is no legal mechanism for the supreme court to enforce their rulings. It is purely theater and tradition
Biden has the option to just kinda look at the supreme court, flip them off, and do what he wants with student loans or whatever else.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44139 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-06-30 15:26:04
June 30 2023 15:23 GMT
#79446
On July 01 2023 00:06 Sermokala wrote:
The Supreme Court knocked down student debt forgiveness and are allowing lgbtq discrimination again.

Wasn't expecting anything good to happen with how rigged the court is now and I can't wait to see them moan about people not considering it legitimate anymore.


I found a summary of the student debt forgiveness situation, for those interested: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-rule-bidens-student-loan-forgiveness-plan-friday-rcna76874
+ Show Spoiler +
Supreme Court kills Biden student loan relief plan
The Supreme Court on Friday invalidated President Joe Biden’s student loan debt relief plan, meaning the long-delayed proposal intended to implement a campaign trail promise will not go into effect.

The justices, divided 6-3 on ideological lines, ruled in one of two cases that the program was an unlawful exercise of presidential power because it had not been explicitly approved by Congress.

The court rejected the Biden administration's arguments that the plan was lawful under a 2003 law called the Higher Education Relief Opportunities for Students Act, or HEROES Act. The law says the government can provide relief to recipients of student loans when there is a “national emergency,” allowing it to act to ensure people are not in “a worse position financially” as a result of the emergency.

Chief Justice John Roberts said the HEROES Act language was not specific enough, writing that the court's precedent "requires that Congress speak clearly before a department secretary can unilaterally alter large sections of the American economy."

The plan, which would have allowed eligible borrowers to cancel up to $20,000 in debt and would have cost more than $400 billion, has been blocked since the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals issued a temporary hold in October.

About 43 million Americans would have been eligible to participate.

The student loan proposal is important politically to Biden, as tackling student loan debt was a key pledge he made on the campaign trail in 2020 to energize younger voters.

The ruling will immediately put pressure on the Biden administration to find an alternative avenue to forgive student debt that could potentially withstand legal challenge.

Advocates, as well as some Democrats in Congress, say the Education Department has broad power to forgive student loan debt under the 1965 Higher Education Act, a different law to the one at issue in the Supreme Court cases.

Separately, the student loan repayment process is set to begin again at the end of August after having been put on pause during the Covid-19 pandemic, although first payments will not be due until October.

The court considered two cases: one brought by six states, including Missouri, and the other brought by two people who hold student loan debt, Myra Brown and Alexander Taylor. The court ruled that the program was unlawful in the case brought by states but found in the second case that the challengers did not have legal standing.

The three liberal justices on the conservative-majority bench dissented, with Justice Elena Kagan saying that by ruling against the plan, the court had "exceeded its proper limited role in our nation's governance."

She said the states bringing the challenge did not have legal standing to even bring the case, and in analyzing HEROES Act, the conservative justices ignored the clear language of the law.

"The result here is that the court substitutes itself for Congress and the executive branch in making national policy about student-loan forgiveness," Kagan wrote.

The court decided the case in part based on a legal argument made by the challengers that the conservative majority has recently embraced called the “major questions doctrine.”

Under the theory, federal agencies cannot initiate sweeping new policies that have significant economic impacts without having express authorization from Congress.

The conservative majority cited the major questions doctrine last year in blocking Biden’s Covid vaccination-or-test requirement for larger businesses and curbing the authority of the Environmental Protection Agency to limit carbon emissions from power plants.

The challengers argued that the administration’s proposal — announced by Biden in August and originally scheduled to take effect last fall — violated the Constitution and federal law, partly because it circumvented Congress, which they said has the sole power to create laws related to student loan forgiveness.

Biden had proposed canceling student loan debt during the 2020 presidential election campaign.

The administration ultimately proposed forgiving up to $10,000 in debt for borrowers earning less than $125,000 a year (or couples who file taxes jointly and earn less than $250,000 annually). Pell Grant recipients, who are the majority of borrowers, would be eligible for $10,000 more in debt relief.

The administration closed the application process after the plan was blocked. Holders of student loan debt currently do not have to make payments as part of Covid relief measures that will remain in effect until after the Supreme Court issues its ruling.

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimated in September that Biden’s plan would cost $400 billion.


As for the LGBTQ discrimination case, I assume you're referring to the web designer refusing to do gay weddings (very similar to the baker refusing to create cakes for gay weddings):
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/30/1182121291/colorado-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-decision
+ Show Spoiler +
Supreme Court says First Amendment entitles web designer to refuse to do gay weddings
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled 6-3 long ideological lines that the First Amendment bars Colorado from "forcing a website designer to create expressive designs speaking messages with which the designer disagrees."

The case pitted laws that guarantee same-sex couples equal access to all businesses that offer their services to the public against business owners who see themselves as artists and don't want to use their talents to express a message that they don't believe in.

For nearly a decade, the justices have dodged and weaved on this clash of legal values, declining to hear some cases and punting on one involving a baker who refused to make custom wedding cakes for same-sex couples. But now the issue was back before a far more conservative court, a court that reached out to hear the case even before any same-sex couples complained that they were the victims of illegal discrimination.

The plaintiff in the case, instead, is business owner Lorie Smith, a Colorado web designer who for the past decade has created all kinds of custom websites for clients.

Smith says that because of Colorado's public accommodations law, she cannot do what she wants to do most — custom web designs for weddings. The reason: She believes that marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

Colorado Attorney General Philip Weiser says the state law is not seeking to dictate what Smith says in her web designs. He contends that Colorado allows any individual or business to create whatever they want, but "if you open your doors and say you are serving the public, you have to serve everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, religion, race or gender."

The state doesn't care about Smith's message, he adds. Rather, "The question is more one of conduct. Will you sell the product or service to whoever from the public knocks on your door."

Web designer Smith notes that she has created websites for gay and lesbian clients selling other products and services, but that she believes marriage is between a man and a woman. Moreover, she says she has refused to use her talents for those who want to convey all kinds of other messages as well.

On Friday, the court agreed.

Writing for the conservative majority, Justice Neil Gorsuch said: "Ms. Smith seeks to engage in protected First Amendment speech; Colorado seeks to compel speech she does not wish to provide. As the Tenth Circuit observed, if Ms. Smith offers wedding websites celebrating marriages she endorses, the State intends to compel her to create custom websites celebrating other marriages she does not. ... If she wishes to speak, she must either speak as the State demands or face sanctions for expressing her own beliefs, sanctions that may include compulsory participation in 'remedial . . . training,' filing periodic compliance reports, and paying monetary fines. That is an impermissible abridgement of the First Amendment's right to speak freely."

In her dissent, Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote: "Today, the Court, for the first time in its history, grants a business open to the public a constitutional right to refuse to serve members of a protected class."

She added: "Around the country, there has been a backlash to the movement for liberty and equality for gender and sexual minorities. New forms of inclusion have been met with reactionary exclusion. This is heartbreaking. Sadly, it is also familiar. When the civil rights and women's rights movements sought equality in public life, some public establishments refused. Some even claimed, based on sincere religious beliefs, constitutional rights to discriminate. The brave Justices who once sat on this Court decisively rejected those claims."
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4720 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-06-30 15:41:06
June 30 2023 15:39 GMT
#79447
Two reasonable rulings and I will say it seems like the majority had finally found it's stride, maybe with Roe last year they finally decided to stop being so nervous, it couldn't get any worse than the backlash to that...almost no wishy washy-ness from Roberts or Kav. The opinions today also seem to call out the dissents pretty strongly. Hope it's the new normal. Too maybe the reason they are so strongly worded (and Roberts quotes Nancy Pelosi lol) is because...

Thr student loan case ought to make people who talk about "norms" angry, what Biden did was cynically and illegal, and now he's going to milk this. Just like the eviction moratorium. Do illegal thing for politics, campaign against the court when they stop it. Campaigning against checks and balances. Disappointed in Kagan for the student loan case, she, more than the other two liberals, should know better. But, the lefty justices have almost always been more in lockstep with the party that appointed them, on big cases so I guess it's not a surprise.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
June 30 2023 15:48 GMT
#79448
--- Nuked ---
Kyadytim
Profile Joined March 2009
United States886 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-06-30 16:11:56
June 30 2023 16:11 GMT
#79449
For me, the most upsetting part of the Creative LLC case is that the request that triggered the lawsuit seems to be fake. The person who allegedly sent it claims to not have sent it, and also has been happily married in a heterosexual relationship for 15 years. It was also sent the day after the case was filed.

This case existed entirely so that conservative litigation teams could give the Supreme Court an opportunity to rule in favor of legal discrimination.
www.theguardian.com
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28630 Posts
June 30 2023 16:42 GMT
#79450
On July 01 2023 01:11 Kyadytim wrote:
For me, the most upsetting part of the Creative LLC case is that the request that triggered the lawsuit seems to be fake. The person who allegedly sent it claims to not have sent it, and also has been happily married in a heterosexual relationship for 15 years. It was also sent the day after the case was filed.

This case existed entirely so that conservative litigation teams could give the Supreme Court an opportunity to rule in favor of legal discrimination.
www.theguardian.com


That might be upsetting in terms of how you view the court, but it could also be encouraging in terms of what impact it'll have. If they had to make up a case it prolly won't be difficult to find a web designer, even for gay couples. I'm guessing today, this is a case where being publicly known for refusing to provide services for gay weddings will cost you more than you gain.

Not saying it's not problematic but I'm pretty confident gay acceptance isn't contingent on legislation. I can also accept the argument that a website is more related to free speech than other services are (even if this is disingenuous from the people making that claim), and thus I dunno if this creates a precedent for other services. Maybe it does but I dunno.
Moderator
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23117 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-06-30 17:41:15
June 30 2023 17:40 GMT
#79451
On July 01 2023 00:09 Mohdoo wrote:
As I always say: There is no legal mechanism for the supreme court to enforce their rulings. It is purely theater and tradition
Biden has the option to just kinda look at the supreme court, flip them off, and do what he wants with student loans or whatever else.

The US political system would probably implode rather quickly. Granted Biden could stand to do something drastic since he's currently losing to a fashy insurrectionist.

One problem Biden's facing is that the net loss of rights under his administration can't be changed by simply reelecting him. In fact, there's no indication electing him (or Democrats at the national level) will do anything to stop the ongoing decay of people's rights.

As it sits I get the feeling Democrats/their supporters are going to basically end up saying "well the rules say that's how it works, so fascism wins. We'll get them next election!" like they have with SCOTUS.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10421 Posts
June 30 2023 19:02 GMT
#79452
@christianS I don’t think your hypothetical is accurate where go from admitting 95/85/75 with affirmative action to 94/94/80 without it. The class size is a finite number so for each additional black student you accept you have to reject one additional Asian/white student.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
June 30 2023 19:27 GMT
#79453
--- Nuked ---
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1913 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-06-30 20:26:31
June 30 2023 20:25 GMT
#79454
On July 01 2023 02:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2023 00:09 Mohdoo wrote:
As I always say: There is no legal mechanism for the supreme court to enforce their rulings. It is purely theater and tradition
Biden has the option to just kinda look at the supreme court, flip them off, and do what he wants with student loans or whatever else.

The US political system would probably implode rather quickly. Granted Biden could stand to do something drastic since he's currently losing to a fashy insurrectionist.

One problem Biden's facing is that the net loss of rights under his administration can't be changed by simply reelecting him. In fact, there's no indication electing him (or Democrats at the national level) will do anything to stop the ongoing decay of people's rights.

As it sits I get the feeling Democrats/their supporters are going to basically end up saying "well the rules say that's how it works, so fascism wins. We'll get them next election!" like they have with SCOTUS.


At least the SCOTUS would have looked very different with a DEM president instead of Trump, and stealing the majority was a major rallying call for conservatives, which they won.

Non conservatives will be pissed about it for decades, and vote for whoever the DEMs put on the ballot.
Buff the siegetank
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13851 Posts
June 30 2023 20:38 GMT
#79455
On July 01 2023 00:48 JimmiC wrote:
Why is it blatantly illegal?

Because it helps normal people and not companies. Millennials need to be made known they're a lower class of citizen than rich people and corporations. Tax cuts and bailouts for some but higher taxes and austerity for the other.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3187 Posts
June 30 2023 22:37 GMT
#79456
On July 01 2023 04:02 BlackJack wrote:
@christianS I don’t think your hypothetical is accurate where go from admitting 95/85/75 with affirmative action to 94/94/80 without it. The class size is a finite number so for each additional black student you accept you have to reject one additional Asian/white student.

Yeah but the populations are vastly different sizes? If you exclude every Black applicant in favor of a white kid, that doesn’t mean 100% of white kids get in. I mean, it doesn’t matter, I made up the numbers anyway.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15588 Posts
June 30 2023 22:44 GMT
#79457
On July 01 2023 02:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2023 00:09 Mohdoo wrote:
As I always say: There is no legal mechanism for the supreme court to enforce their rulings. It is purely theater and tradition
Biden has the option to just kinda look at the supreme court, flip them off, and do what he wants with student loans or whatever else.

The US political system would probably implode rather quickly. Granted Biden could stand to do something drastic since he's currently losing to a fashy insurrectionist.

One problem Biden's facing is that the net loss of rights under his administration can't be changed by simply reelecting him. In fact, there's no indication electing him (or Democrats at the national level) will do anything to stop the ongoing decay of people's rights.

As it sits I get the feeling Democrats/their supporters are going to basically end up saying "well the rules say that's how it works, so fascism wins. We'll get them next election!" like they have with SCOTUS.


If anything, what we have learned is that whoever happens to be sitting in the president's chair at the time of a supreme court justice dying is the most important parameter in american politics. Voting dem, regardless of who, has only become further ingrained. Let's say some fiery socialist dem won in 2020 instead. We just learned their student loan forgiveness would have been shot down.

All that matters right now is the supreme court. Abortion, student loans, affirmative action, all of the hot button items are just settled by the court. So all you can really do is camp out the chair for the next time one needs to be replaced.
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10421 Posts
June 30 2023 23:03 GMT
#79458
On July 01 2023 07:37 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2023 04:02 BlackJack wrote:
@christianS I don’t think your hypothetical is accurate where go from admitting 95/85/75 with affirmative action to 94/94/80 without it. The class size is a finite number so for each additional black student you accept you have to reject one additional Asian/white student.

Yeah but the populations are vastly different sizes? If you exclude every Black applicant in favor of a white kid, that doesn’t mean 100% of white kids get in. I mean, it doesn’t matter, I made up the numbers anyway.


I’m guessing you accidentally have the made up numbers for whites flipped? Because in your example you are admitting a lot more whites and a lot more African Americans and only 1% fewer Asians. If you are saying that it’s possible for Asians to not be negatively affected because the numbers could be coming out of whites without affecting the Asian numbers then I agree that’s possible. I don’t think it’s true though.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23117 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-07-01 00:00:21
June 30 2023 23:55 GMT
#79459
On July 01 2023 07:44 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2023 02:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 01 2023 00:09 Mohdoo wrote:
As I always say: There is no legal mechanism for the supreme court to enforce their rulings. It is purely theater and tradition
Biden has the option to just kinda look at the supreme court, flip them off, and do what he wants with student loans or whatever else.

The US political system would probably implode rather quickly. Granted Biden could stand to do something drastic since he's currently losing to a fashy insurrectionist.

One problem Biden's facing is that the net loss of rights under his administration can't be changed by simply reelecting him. In fact, there's no indication electing him (or Democrats at the national level) will do anything to stop the ongoing decay of people's rights.

As it sits I get the feeling Democrats/their supporters are going to basically end up saying "well the rules say that's how it works, so fascism wins. We'll get them next election!" like they have with SCOTUS.


If anything, what we have learned is that whoever happens to be sitting in the president's chair at the time of a supreme court justice dying is the most important parameter in american politics. Voting dem, regardless of who, has only become further ingrained. Let's say some fiery socialist dem won in 2020 instead. We just learned their student loan forgiveness would have been shot down.

All that matters right now is the supreme court. Abortion, student loans, affirmative action, all of the hot button items are just settled by the court. So all you can really do is camp out the chair for the next time one needs to be replaced.

Realistically speaking, you're looking at more than a decade before that has a possibility of paying off and hoping Sotomayor retires at a favorable time, unlike RBG. Losing the presidency just once in the next 3-6 cycles (or failing to fill a vacancy again) could easily extend the time horizon for a SCOTUS that isn't stripping people of bodily autonomy, voting rights, etc. into several decades away.

All that assumes the fashy insurrectionist that's polling ahead of Biden and/or his proteges/supporters don't destroy US democracy in the intervening decade(s).

"You'll lose even more rights even faster if you don't elect us!" isn't exactly an inspirational message to carry you through several must win elections in a row.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15588 Posts
July 01 2023 00:38 GMT
#79460
On July 01 2023 08:55 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2023 07:44 Mohdoo wrote:
On July 01 2023 02:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 01 2023 00:09 Mohdoo wrote:
As I always say: There is no legal mechanism for the supreme court to enforce their rulings. It is purely theater and tradition
Biden has the option to just kinda look at the supreme court, flip them off, and do what he wants with student loans or whatever else.

The US political system would probably implode rather quickly. Granted Biden could stand to do something drastic since he's currently losing to a fashy insurrectionist.

One problem Biden's facing is that the net loss of rights under his administration can't be changed by simply reelecting him. In fact, there's no indication electing him (or Democrats at the national level) will do anything to stop the ongoing decay of people's rights.

As it sits I get the feeling Democrats/their supporters are going to basically end up saying "well the rules say that's how it works, so fascism wins. We'll get them next election!" like they have with SCOTUS.


If anything, what we have learned is that whoever happens to be sitting in the president's chair at the time of a supreme court justice dying is the most important parameter in american politics. Voting dem, regardless of who, has only become further ingrained. Let's say some fiery socialist dem won in 2020 instead. We just learned their student loan forgiveness would have been shot down.

All that matters right now is the supreme court. Abortion, student loans, affirmative action, all of the hot button items are just settled by the court. So all you can really do is camp out the chair for the next time one needs to be replaced.

Realistically speaking, you're looking at more than a decade before that has a possibility of paying off and hoping Sotomayor retires at a favorable time, unlike RBG. Losing the presidency just once in the next 3-6 cycles (or failing to fill a vacancy again) could easily extend the time horizon for a SCOTUS that isn't stripping people of bodily autonomy, voting rights, etc. into several decades away.

All that assumes the fashy insurrectionist that's polling ahead of Biden and/or his proteges/supporters don't destroy US democracy in the intervening decade(s).

"You'll lose even more rights even faster if you don't elect us!" isn't exactly an inspirational message to carry you through several must win elections in a row.



What do you see as the way of breaking the impact the supreme court has? What can a progressive candidate do that isn't vulnerable to the supreme court deciding they disagree?
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