US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3973
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On June 30 2023 18:31 gobbledydook wrote: Advantage is a relative concept. If everyone but you has an advantage, then you have a disadvantage. Not hard to grasp. Yeah, but that’s kind of my point. If an Asian student needs to be in the 95th percentile to get in on average, and a Black student only needs to be in the 75th percentile to be in, and a white student only needs to be in the 85th percentile to get in, then statistically it looks like AAPI students are being discriminated against. But it’s entirely possible that without affirmative action those numbers go to, say, 94th/94th/80th (respectively), because the white students will continue to benefit from various other factors, while the Black students were benefiting from AA, but eliminating the latter doesn’t actually help AAPI students all that much. Those “other factors” are likely where the discrimination against AAPI students is actually helping. In Harvard’s case, for instance, they do a “personality rating” that, while nominally neutral about race, apparently systematically underrates Asians, on average. One motivation for AA is to try to compensate for systemic biases in your decision-making and correct for them, but of course, that’s apparently a violation of the United States Constitution; the Founders have shambles from their graves to tell us that if Latinos consistently score worse on our metrics, we are duty-bound to assume that’s just revealing a truth about Latinos and admit them less accordingly. This, by the way, in the name of “equality.” Which also means stuff like the “personality rating” is fine. So is favoring family of alumni. So is using tests like the SAT that give a big edge to kids with time and money for test prep courses. Facially neutral metrics with disparate racial impact are fine; identifying and compensating for those disparate impacts is Unconstitutional. It remains to be seen how AAPI students will actually fare under the new rules, but don’t be surprised if all those new slots mostly go to white folks and AAPI students still seem to need a higher GPA than anybody else to get in. @BJ and Intro: the quote chains are getting unwieldy so I won’t go into depth on your posts (I’d probably just repeat myself anyway), but two points BJ raised: Also is there a lot of evidence that African-Americans benefited from affirmative action? Malcolm Gladwell has a chapter in his book David and Goliath that details how blacks often struggle after getting into better colleges they aren’t as qualified for because they go from being at the top of their class to being at the bottom of their class. They are far more likely to struggle and dropout if memory serves me correctly. Not to mention having to deal with negative stigma of people thinking you are less qualified because you’re an “affirmative action hire.” I dunno about Gladwell’s book, but as I already said to Intro, I’m not even a big fan of AA for some similar reasons. Maybe minority students’ merit is systematically underestimated in high school, but if it’s gonna be systematically underestimated in college too, “correcting” for it in admissions is not necessarily helping them. They’ll take out a bunch of loans to do it and have nothing to show for it if they don’t graduate, and that’s already a decently likely outcome for the students who get in without benefiting from AA. Sending a Black kid with a 2.9 GPA to Harvard feels like one of those well-meaning white liberal forms of “helping” that probably has more to do with self-soothing than actually trying to effect positive change in the world. But as for the “negative stigma” bit: Intro has already demonstrated just how easily white people will still convince themselves they aren’t getting what they deserve and Black people don’t deserve what they get. Yes, it probably sucks when shitty White people look at your skin color and assume you lack merit, but that will almost certainly continue unabated so it’s not really relevant here. | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States43756 Posts
On June 30 2023 22:41 dankobanana wrote: This ruling makes no sense. The universities discriminate based on money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences They should have banned any discrimination and asked for a merit based system implementation. Athletic recruiting should also be a thing of the past https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_recruiting I wrote this yesterday about "merit-based systems": I think you may be misunderstanding what our "merit-based system" is... That phrase typically assumes that everyone starts on an equal playing field, without considering the context of socioeconomic status or race or sex or anything else, and that all you need to succeed is to work as hard as anyone else, and just pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Work ethic *and* societal factors both have an impact on success, and... things are much more nuanced than just looking at merit. | ||
Sermokala
United States13733 Posts
Wasn't expecting anything good to happen with how rigged the court is now and I can't wait to see them moan about people not considering it legitimate anymore. | ||
Mohdoo
United States15391 Posts
Biden has the option to just kinda look at the supreme court, flip them off, and do what he wants with student loans or whatever else. | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States43756 Posts
On July 01 2023 00:06 Sermokala wrote: The Supreme Court knocked down student debt forgiveness and are allowing lgbtq discrimination again. Wasn't expecting anything good to happen with how rigged the court is now and I can't wait to see them moan about people not considering it legitimate anymore. I found a summary of the student debt forgiveness situation, for those interested: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-rule-bidens-student-loan-forgiveness-plan-friday-rcna76874 + Show Spoiler + Supreme Court kills Biden student loan relief plan The Supreme Court on Friday invalidated President Joe Biden’s student loan debt relief plan, meaning the long-delayed proposal intended to implement a campaign trail promise will not go into effect. The justices, divided 6-3 on ideological lines, ruled in one of two cases that the program was an unlawful exercise of presidential power because it had not been explicitly approved by Congress. The court rejected the Biden administration's arguments that the plan was lawful under a 2003 law called the Higher Education Relief Opportunities for Students Act, or HEROES Act. The law says the government can provide relief to recipients of student loans when there is a “national emergency,” allowing it to act to ensure people are not in “a worse position financially” as a result of the emergency. Chief Justice John Roberts said the HEROES Act language was not specific enough, writing that the court's precedent "requires that Congress speak clearly before a department secretary can unilaterally alter large sections of the American economy." The plan, which would have allowed eligible borrowers to cancel up to $20,000 in debt and would have cost more than $400 billion, has been blocked since the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals issued a temporary hold in October. About 43 million Americans would have been eligible to participate. The student loan proposal is important politically to Biden, as tackling student loan debt was a key pledge he made on the campaign trail in 2020 to energize younger voters. The ruling will immediately put pressure on the Biden administration to find an alternative avenue to forgive student debt that could potentially withstand legal challenge. Advocates, as well as some Democrats in Congress, say the Education Department has broad power to forgive student loan debt under the 1965 Higher Education Act, a different law to the one at issue in the Supreme Court cases. Separately, the student loan repayment process is set to begin again at the end of August after having been put on pause during the Covid-19 pandemic, although first payments will not be due until October. The court considered two cases: one brought by six states, including Missouri, and the other brought by two people who hold student loan debt, Myra Brown and Alexander Taylor. The court ruled that the program was unlawful in the case brought by states but found in the second case that the challengers did not have legal standing. The three liberal justices on the conservative-majority bench dissented, with Justice Elena Kagan saying that by ruling against the plan, the court had "exceeded its proper limited role in our nation's governance." She said the states bringing the challenge did not have legal standing to even bring the case, and in analyzing HEROES Act, the conservative justices ignored the clear language of the law. "The result here is that the court substitutes itself for Congress and the executive branch in making national policy about student-loan forgiveness," Kagan wrote. The court decided the case in part based on a legal argument made by the challengers that the conservative majority has recently embraced called the “major questions doctrine.” Under the theory, federal agencies cannot initiate sweeping new policies that have significant economic impacts without having express authorization from Congress. The conservative majority cited the major questions doctrine last year in blocking Biden’s Covid vaccination-or-test requirement for larger businesses and curbing the authority of the Environmental Protection Agency to limit carbon emissions from power plants. The challengers argued that the administration’s proposal — announced by Biden in August and originally scheduled to take effect last fall — violated the Constitution and federal law, partly because it circumvented Congress, which they said has the sole power to create laws related to student loan forgiveness. Biden had proposed canceling student loan debt during the 2020 presidential election campaign. The administration ultimately proposed forgiving up to $10,000 in debt for borrowers earning less than $125,000 a year (or couples who file taxes jointly and earn less than $250,000 annually). Pell Grant recipients, who are the majority of borrowers, would be eligible for $10,000 more in debt relief. The administration closed the application process after the plan was blocked. Holders of student loan debt currently do not have to make payments as part of Covid relief measures that will remain in effect until after the Supreme Court issues its ruling. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimated in September that Biden’s plan would cost $400 billion. As for the LGBTQ discrimination case, I assume you're referring to the web designer refusing to do gay weddings (very similar to the baker refusing to create cakes for gay weddings): https://www.npr.org/2023/06/30/1182121291/colorado-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-decision + Show Spoiler + Supreme Court says First Amendment entitles web designer to refuse to do gay weddings The U.S. Supreme Court ruled 6-3 long ideological lines that the First Amendment bars Colorado from "forcing a website designer to create expressive designs speaking messages with which the designer disagrees." The case pitted laws that guarantee same-sex couples equal access to all businesses that offer their services to the public against business owners who see themselves as artists and don't want to use their talents to express a message that they don't believe in. For nearly a decade, the justices have dodged and weaved on this clash of legal values, declining to hear some cases and punting on one involving a baker who refused to make custom wedding cakes for same-sex couples. But now the issue was back before a far more conservative court, a court that reached out to hear the case even before any same-sex couples complained that they were the victims of illegal discrimination. The plaintiff in the case, instead, is business owner Lorie Smith, a Colorado web designer who for the past decade has created all kinds of custom websites for clients. Smith says that because of Colorado's public accommodations law, she cannot do what she wants to do most — custom web designs for weddings. The reason: She believes that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Colorado Attorney General Philip Weiser says the state law is not seeking to dictate what Smith says in her web designs. He contends that Colorado allows any individual or business to create whatever they want, but "if you open your doors and say you are serving the public, you have to serve everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, religion, race or gender." The state doesn't care about Smith's message, he adds. Rather, "The question is more one of conduct. Will you sell the product or service to whoever from the public knocks on your door." Web designer Smith notes that she has created websites for gay and lesbian clients selling other products and services, but that she believes marriage is between a man and a woman. Moreover, she says she has refused to use her talents for those who want to convey all kinds of other messages as well. On Friday, the court agreed. Writing for the conservative majority, Justice Neil Gorsuch said: "Ms. Smith seeks to engage in protected First Amendment speech; Colorado seeks to compel speech she does not wish to provide. As the Tenth Circuit observed, if Ms. Smith offers wedding websites celebrating marriages she endorses, the State intends to compel her to create custom websites celebrating other marriages she does not. ... If she wishes to speak, she must either speak as the State demands or face sanctions for expressing her own beliefs, sanctions that may include compulsory participation in 'remedial . . . training,' filing periodic compliance reports, and paying monetary fines. That is an impermissible abridgement of the First Amendment's right to speak freely." In her dissent, Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote: "Today, the Court, for the first time in its history, grants a business open to the public a constitutional right to refuse to serve members of a protected class." She added: "Around the country, there has been a backlash to the movement for liberty and equality for gender and sexual minorities. New forms of inclusion have been met with reactionary exclusion. This is heartbreaking. Sadly, it is also familiar. When the civil rights and women's rights movements sought equality in public life, some public establishments refused. Some even claimed, based on sincere religious beliefs, constitutional rights to discriminate. The brave Justices who once sat on this Court decisively rejected those claims." | ||
Introvert
United States4654 Posts
Thr student loan case ought to make people who talk about "norms" angry, what Biden did was cynically and illegal, and now he's going to milk this. Just like the eviction moratorium. Do illegal thing for politics, campaign against the court when they stop it. Campaigning against checks and balances. Disappointed in Kagan for the student loan case, she, more than the other two liberals, should know better. But, the lefty justices have almost always been more in lockstep with the party that appointed them, on big cases so I guess it's not a surprise. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
This case existed entirely so that conservative litigation teams could give the Supreme Court an opportunity to rule in favor of legal discrimination. www.theguardian.com | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28552 Posts
On July 01 2023 01:11 Kyadytim wrote: For me, the most upsetting part of the Creative LLC case is that the request that triggered the lawsuit seems to be fake. The person who allegedly sent it claims to not have sent it, and also has been happily married in a heterosexual relationship for 15 years. It was also sent the day after the case was filed. This case existed entirely so that conservative litigation teams could give the Supreme Court an opportunity to rule in favor of legal discrimination. www.theguardian.com That might be upsetting in terms of how you view the court, but it could also be encouraging in terms of what impact it'll have. If they had to make up a case it prolly won't be difficult to find a web designer, even for gay couples. I'm guessing today, this is a case where being publicly known for refusing to provide services for gay weddings will cost you more than you gain. Not saying it's not problematic but I'm pretty confident gay acceptance isn't contingent on legislation. I can also accept the argument that a website is more related to free speech than other services are (even if this is disingenuous from the people making that claim), and thus I dunno if this creates a precedent for other services. Maybe it does but I dunno. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22661 Posts
On July 01 2023 00:09 Mohdoo wrote: As I always say: There is no legal mechanism for the supreme court to enforce their rulings. It is purely theater and tradition Biden has the option to just kinda look at the supreme court, flip them off, and do what he wants with student loans or whatever else. The US political system would probably implode rather quickly. Granted Biden could stand to do something drastic since he's currently losing to a fashy insurrectionist. One problem Biden's facing is that the net loss of rights under his administration can't be changed by simply reelecting him. In fact, there's no indication electing him (or Democrats at the national level) will do anything to stop the ongoing decay of people's rights. As it sits I get the feeling Democrats/their supporters are going to basically end up saying "well the rules say that's how it works, so fascism wins. We'll get them next election!" like they have with SCOTUS. | ||
BlackJack
United States10180 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Slydie
1878 Posts
On July 01 2023 02:40 GreenHorizons wrote: The US political system would probably implode rather quickly. Granted Biden could stand to do something drastic since he's currently losing to a fashy insurrectionist. One problem Biden's facing is that the net loss of rights under his administration can't be changed by simply reelecting him. In fact, there's no indication electing him (or Democrats at the national level) will do anything to stop the ongoing decay of people's rights. As it sits I get the feeling Democrats/their supporters are going to basically end up saying "well the rules say that's how it works, so fascism wins. We'll get them next election!" like they have with SCOTUS. At least the SCOTUS would have looked very different with a DEM president instead of Trump, and stealing the majority was a major rallying call for conservatives, which they won. Non conservatives will be pissed about it for decades, and vote for whoever the DEMs put on the ballot. | ||
Sermokala
United States13733 Posts
On July 01 2023 00:48 JimmiC wrote: Why is it blatantly illegal? Because it helps normal people and not companies. Millennials need to be made known they're a lower class of citizen than rich people and corporations. Tax cuts and bailouts for some but higher taxes and austerity for the other. | ||
ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On July 01 2023 04:02 BlackJack wrote: @christianS I don’t think your hypothetical is accurate where go from admitting 95/85/75 with affirmative action to 94/94/80 without it. The class size is a finite number so for each additional black student you accept you have to reject one additional Asian/white student. Yeah but the populations are vastly different sizes? If you exclude every Black applicant in favor of a white kid, that doesn’t mean 100% of white kids get in. I mean, it doesn’t matter, I made up the numbers anyway. | ||
Mohdoo
United States15391 Posts
On July 01 2023 02:40 GreenHorizons wrote: The US political system would probably implode rather quickly. Granted Biden could stand to do something drastic since he's currently losing to a fashy insurrectionist. One problem Biden's facing is that the net loss of rights under his administration can't be changed by simply reelecting him. In fact, there's no indication electing him (or Democrats at the national level) will do anything to stop the ongoing decay of people's rights. As it sits I get the feeling Democrats/their supporters are going to basically end up saying "well the rules say that's how it works, so fascism wins. We'll get them next election!" like they have with SCOTUS. If anything, what we have learned is that whoever happens to be sitting in the president's chair at the time of a supreme court justice dying is the most important parameter in american politics. Voting dem, regardless of who, has only become further ingrained. Let's say some fiery socialist dem won in 2020 instead. We just learned their student loan forgiveness would have been shot down. All that matters right now is the supreme court. Abortion, student loans, affirmative action, all of the hot button items are just settled by the court. So all you can really do is camp out the chair for the next time one needs to be replaced. | ||
BlackJack
United States10180 Posts
On July 01 2023 07:37 ChristianS wrote: Yeah but the populations are vastly different sizes? If you exclude every Black applicant in favor of a white kid, that doesn’t mean 100% of white kids get in. I mean, it doesn’t matter, I made up the numbers anyway. I’m guessing you accidentally have the made up numbers for whites flipped? Because in your example you are admitting a lot more whites and a lot more African Americans and only 1% fewer Asians. If you are saying that it’s possible for Asians to not be negatively affected because the numbers could be coming out of whites without affecting the Asian numbers then I agree that’s possible. I don’t think it’s true though. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22661 Posts
On July 01 2023 07:44 Mohdoo wrote: If anything, what we have learned is that whoever happens to be sitting in the president's chair at the time of a supreme court justice dying is the most important parameter in american politics. Voting dem, regardless of who, has only become further ingrained. Let's say some fiery socialist dem won in 2020 instead. We just learned their student loan forgiveness would have been shot down. All that matters right now is the supreme court. Abortion, student loans, affirmative action, all of the hot button items are just settled by the court. So all you can really do is camp out the chair for the next time one needs to be replaced. Realistically speaking, you're looking at more than a decade before that has a possibility of paying off and hoping Sotomayor retires at a favorable time, unlike RBG. Losing the presidency just once in the next 3-6 cycles (or failing to fill a vacancy again) could easily extend the time horizon for a SCOTUS that isn't stripping people of bodily autonomy, voting rights, etc. into several decades away. All that assumes the fashy insurrectionist that's polling ahead of Biden and/or his proteges/supporters don't destroy US democracy in the intervening decade(s). "You'll lose even more rights even faster if you don't elect us!" isn't exactly an inspirational message to carry you through several must win elections in a row. | ||
Mohdoo
United States15391 Posts
On July 01 2023 08:55 GreenHorizons wrote: Realistically speaking, you're looking at more than a decade before that has a possibility of paying off and hoping Sotomayor retires at a favorable time, unlike RBG. Losing the presidency just once in the next 3-6 cycles (or failing to fill a vacancy again) could easily extend the time horizon for a SCOTUS that isn't stripping people of bodily autonomy, voting rights, etc. into several decades away. All that assumes the fashy insurrectionist that's polling ahead of Biden and/or his proteges/supporters don't destroy US democracy in the intervening decade(s). "You'll lose even more rights even faster if you don't elect us!" isn't exactly an inspirational message to carry you through several must win elections in a row. What do you see as the way of breaking the impact the supreme court has? What can a progressive candidate do that isn't vulnerable to the supreme court deciding they disagree? | ||
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