EPTBut we already did all this, that’s what makes their outrage surprising. They knew he was a criminal when this first happened, they knew he was a criminal when they picked him as their candidate for 2020, they know he’s a criminal today. They’ve never disputed that he was individual 1. None of this is new, they did the case, found his co conspirator guilty, sentenced him etc. years ago. Their outrage is that he might get punished for it.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3906
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KwarK
United States44372 Posts
But we already did all this, that’s what makes their outrage surprising. They knew he was a criminal when this first happened, they knew he was a criminal when they picked him as their candidate for 2020, they know he’s a criminal today. They’ve never disputed that he was individual 1. None of this is new, they did the case, found his co conspirator guilty, sentenced him etc. years ago. Their outrage is that he might get punished for it. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
On March 31 2023 22:16 KwarK wrote: So far it’s just the era of arresting criminal former presidents. We need to see if they arrest non criminal ones too before we’ll know if it’s all previous presidents. I just wish there was this much fervor to arrest and prosecute the president that openly admitted to having people tortured. Trump habitually commits crimes, but this seems more politically motivated than anything else to me. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On April 01 2023 03:45 GreenHorizons wrote: I just wish there was this much fervor to arrest and prosecute the president that openly admitted to having people tortured. Trump habitually commits crimes, but this seems more politically motivated than anything else to me. I see it less as politically motivated, but rather as something else. I don't think it's some example of the grand conspiracy against conservatives finally bearing fruit, but rather that our system is happy to overlook a lot of contemptible acts from our leadership, who are largely de facto above the law, like a set of invisible rails keeping a select set of immoral actors and criminals inside society's good graces despite their attempts to break out. But if someone tries hard enough they can still break through the rails, or bounce over them. I think it's touching on the problem Kwark is referring to, the problem here is not that we now find ourselves in a time where a former president can be prosecuted, it's that it took this long, and this grievous a set of offenses to finally see any accountability happen for a former president at all. The powers that are usually happy to sweep these crimes under the rug, moral, legal, or otherwise, do so because it's worth it to them to keep further dominos from tumbling. I think Trump is a case where those same players finally decided it's not worth it to cover him. You see it in the round-the-bush way that Republicans are trying to distance themselves from him too. They clearly benefitted from giving him every pass under the sun, because if Trump of all people can get a pass then everything the Republicans are doing looks pretty tame in comparison. They had an interest in covering his high-risk ass. But I think it's reaching a point, now that he's no longer president and he doesn't seem to be the future anymore, that they finally caught up to everyone else in saying Trump isn't worth it. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
this grievous a set of offenses That's what I'm drawing attention to with the torture part, that former presidents aren't being (or seemingly at any increased risk for being) prosecuted for egregious crimes. If this was some sort of clarion call for former presidents to not be above the law I don't believe that'd be the case. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22658 Posts
On April 01 2023 07:25 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm not saying your wrong, Bush should have been prosecuted but I'm not even sure if you can charge a former President for actions he took in his official duty as President. All of Trumps stuff is about things he did as a citizen, including all the election denial stuff which was in his position as candidate, not President.That's what I'm drawing attention to with the torture part, that former presidents aren't being (or seemingly at any increased risk for being) prosecuted for egregious crimes. If this was some sort of clarion call for former presidents to not be above the law I don't believe that'd be the case. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On April 01 2023 03:45 GreenHorizons wrote: I just wish there was this much fervor to arrest and prosecute the president that openly admitted to having people tortured. Trump habitually commits crimes, but this seems more politically motivated than anything else to me. Pretty sure this is the reason he announced his candidacy so early. So every single accusation is now a "political witch hunt" against a "political rival". Can't believe people are getting fooled by this dumb dude again lmao | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
On April 01 2023 07:39 Gorsameth wrote: I'm not saying your wrong, Bush should have been prosecuted but I'm not even sure if you can charge a former President for actions he took in his official duty as President. All of Trumps stuff is about things he did as a citizen, including all the election denial stuff which was in his position as candidate, not President. As far as I understand he had no special immunity to torture people because he was president and the argument then wasn't that he couldn't legally be held accountable, but that doing so was too vaguely dangerous to democracy. The ICC couldn't hold him accountable because the US doesn't recognize their authority (which is a major part of why the US is hamstrung on helping to bring a war crimes case against Putin). Which is part of (along with an obscene military) the US's scheme of a "rules-based international order" which basically just operates as a rationalization for crimes (against humanity and otherwise) and rank hypocrisy by the US in international affairs. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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KwarK
United States44372 Posts
On April 01 2023 09:03 GreenHorizons wrote: As far as I understand he had no special immunity to torture people because he was president and the argument then wasn't that he couldn't legally be held accountable, but that doing so was too vaguely dangerous to democracy. The ICC couldn't hold him accountable because the US doesn't recognize their authority (which is a major part of why the US is hamstrung on helping to bring a war crimes case against Putin). Which is part of (along with an obscene military) the US's scheme of a "rules-based international order" which basically just operates as a rationalization for crimes (against humanity and otherwise) and rank hypocrisy by the US in international affairs. The point was that it wasn’t Bush illegally torturing people for fun as a private citizen, it was the executive branch of the government illegally torturing people as a matter of national policy. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
On April 01 2023 10:18 KwarK wrote: The point was that it wasn’t Bush illegally torturing people for fun as a private citizen, it was the executive branch of the government illegally torturing people as a matter of national policy. I'm aware. My point was that it didn't make it legal and in and of itself doesn't preclude him from being prosecuted for crimes he's admitted to in writing. Moreover, that the contortions (and threats) it takes to rationalize not prosecuting him (and other various blatant hypocrisies) also undermines the ability for the rest of the world to hold leaders like Putin and/or Netanyahu accountable for their illegal occupations or crimes against humanity generally. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
There are 2 things that motivated conservative politics are: resentment and defiance. After 4 years of Biden and an indicted trump, turnout for republicans is going to be very high in 2024. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14211 Posts
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FeatherPlanes
45 Posts
On April 02 2023 03:57 JimmiC wrote: Also what a stupid and embarrassingly stupid loss DeSantis put up vs Disney. First the blatantly political fight was so stupid and then he spent a whole lot of state money to do nothing and lose publicly and badly. He has kind of been positioned as the smart Trump, but maybe he is just as dumb just slightly less outlandish? https://ca.yahoo.com/news/florida-insiders-react-shock-amusement-211710345.html It doesn't really matter if he wins or loses, he'll always spin it to be an ongoing battle against whatever he's railing against. That's the beauty of the culture war bullshit, you're either victorious against the pedophiles woke mind virus or the pedophile woke mind virus has infected so much of America that you just have to fight even harder (and maybe promote some stochastic terrorism while you're at it). I've always maintained that DeSantis is getting away with a lot of his bullshit because he's insulated within Florida and he doesn't hold up that well the minute he gets pushed because he's ultimately a huge nerdy dork. Trump, for all of his faults, was legendary at rolling with the punches, DeSantis is surprisingly a huge bitch when it comes to confrontations. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18462 Posts
On April 02 2023 10:23 FeatherPlanes wrote: It doesn't really matter if he wins or loses, he'll always spin it to be an ongoing battle against whatever he's railing against. That's the beauty of the culture war bullshit, you're either victorious against the pedophiles woke mind virus or the pedophile woke mind virus has infected so much of America that you just have to fight even harder (and maybe promote some stochastic terrorism while you're at it). I've always maintained that DeSantis is getting away with a lot of his bullshit because he's insulated within Florida and he doesn't hold up that well the minute he gets pushed because he's ultimately a huge nerdy dork. Trump, for all of his faults, was legendary at rolling with the punches, DeSantis is surprisingly a huge bitch when it comes to confrontations. Really? "Blood coming out of your wherever" was a legendary act of rolling with the punches? Or do you mean that Trump has a legendary ability to kick people he can get away with kicking, something that schoolyard bullies do instinctively, aged 3 and upwards. I'll grant you that Trump probably would be too streetsmart to pick a legal battle with Disney. EDIT: Actually, scratch that last bit, he picked a war of words with Twitter. He'd absolutely pick a legal battle with Disney. | ||
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