EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3894
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
KwarK
United States43464 Posts
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On March 19 2023 08:49 KwarK wrote: If Trump runs he will go full scorched earth on every single other Republican candidate the way he always has. They, in turn, will have to pretend to oppose him because you can’t outcrazy Trump. If he can’t run then, as was said above, all those same candidates will paint him as a martyr, deny all his crimes, and try to hijack his insane base. I’m not sure which is more dangerous for democracy. Ron DeSantis is trying his best to outcrazy Trump which is disappointing. I was hoping he would be a saner version of Trump, not a crazier version. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On March 19 2023 10:56 gobbledydook wrote: Ron DeSantis is trying his best to outcrazy Trump which is disappointing. I was hoping he would be a saner version of Trump, not a crazier version. They're both rightwing fascists. One is smarter and one is dumber. The smarter one is better at implementing fascist policy than the dumber one. DeSantis' actions aren't a surprise to anyone whose been paying attention. | ||
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Introvert
United States4884 Posts
On March 19 2023 10:56 gobbledydook wrote: Ron DeSantis is trying his best to outcrazy Trump which is disappointing. I was hoping he would be a saner version of Trump, not a crazier version. in what possible way is DeSantis trying to "outcrazy" Trump using a reasonable definition of the word "crazy" | ||
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Sermokala
United States14075 Posts
On March 19 2023 12:10 Introvert wrote: in what possible way is DeSantis trying to "outcrazy" Trump using a reasonable definition of the word "crazy" Being the party of small government yet being proud of government control of schools, companies, womens period information, raiding election officials' homes, starting a state military. I mean I could go on but you get the picture. You don't get more crazy than human trafficking just for the lulz of human suffering. | ||
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Introvert
United States4884 Posts
edit: though this may not matter if this frivolous and dangerous indictment goes though. I'm not sure if it's worse if dems want this because he's a political opponent and they hate him, or because they want him to win the nomination again. Either way they once again prove their talk about "norms" and the "rule of law" is obvious bs. Such a shaky case that federal prosecutors, and Bragg once before, had already declined to follow through on it. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3277 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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FeatherPlanes
45 Posts
I'm still not really convinced DeSantis really does that well if he ends up on the national stage, rather than being isolated in a Florida that Republicans at this point basically run with an iron fist. He has a pretty bad habit of running away with his ball or attempting to create a freezing environment for reporters whenever he gets pressed. I don't see how that works on the national stage where everyone is hyperfocused on you, let alone against Trump in the primary - you can't really bully him, implicitly threaten his access to you, nor can you run away in a primary unless you want to look like a coward. As for the allegation that the "mainstream media" is against him, they're kind of not? Yeah they mention he's controversial but never go into depth. They also clearly want the Republican primaries to be a slugfest for the content and are actually doing a whole lot to promote DeSantis' viability on the national stage. The "mainstream media" really is not idelogically consistent beyond defending the status quo/capital holders, which is why papers like the New York Times are consistently on the wrong side of history from putting out puff pieces about Hitler to the Iraq War. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15728 Posts
On March 19 2023 08:49 KwarK wrote: If Trump runs he will go full scorched earth on every single other Republican candidate the way he always has. They, in turn, will have to pretend to oppose him because you can’t outcrazy Trump. If he can’t run then, as was said above, all those same candidates will paint him as a martyr, deny all his crimes, and try to hijack his insane base. I’m not sure which is more dangerous for democracy. Imagine if "I will free Trump" becomes a major political issue in the republican primary. Oof. The thought of it. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
As definitions become increasingly different, it's hard to keep track what person X might mean with Y. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On March 19 2023 12:10 Introvert wrote: in what possible way is DeSantis trying to "outcrazy" Trump using a reasonable definition of the word "crazy" He's going all in on the anti woke persona and that's not a good way to run a country. I don't think it should be the job of a governor to pick on a minority like the LGBT and legislate to prevent schools from asking for pronouns, or display graphic images of sex reassignment surgeries, as if any major surgery wouldn't be graphic. In any case I don't think he believes any of this crap. He is pandering to his base in a really crass way. At least Trump really believes in what he's saying, offensive as it is. If Ron stuck to MAGA and the economy, I'd respect him a lot more, because he really is an effective governor and anti woke aside, Florida has flourished under his rule. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45218 Posts
On March 19 2023 22:59 gobbledydook wrote: He's going all in on the anti woke persona and that's not a good way to run a country. I don't think it should be the job of a governor to pick on a minority like the LGBT and legislate to prevent schools from asking for pronouns, or display graphic images of sex reassignment surgeries, as if any major surgery wouldn't be graphic. In any case I don't think he believes any of this crap. He is pandering to his base in a really crass way. At least Trump really believes in what he's saying, offensive as it is. If Ron stuck to MAGA and the economy, I'd respect him a lot more, because he really is an effective governor and anti woke aside, Florida has flourished under his rule. Can you please elaborate on how Florida has flourished under DeSantis? | ||
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Sermokala
United States14075 Posts
On March 19 2023 13:12 Introvert wrote: that list is remarkable for the scale of what we now call disinformation and misinformation that is contained within it, but I was curious what gobbledydook thought because given his posting history I suspect he's not referring to the same absurd things like the ones listed above. could be wrong though. Some of Trump's non-conservative tendencies tend make him appealing to people who aren't normally fond of your average Republican politician so I'm curious if he's referring to the things read some people complaining about. And that's interesting in some ways because DeSantis is very calculating and tends to support positions most voters find at the very least acceptable, despite left-wing hand wringing. The education bill springs to mind. Popular with almost everyone, including a very large subset of Democrats in FL. The media will of course paint him as an extremist but that's just part of life the mainstream press apparatus is so tilted towards one party. I am fascinated to see how a politician as smart and disciplined as he is run a campaign and hopefully govern. edit: though this may not matter if this frivolous and dangerous indictment goes though. I'm not sure if it's worse if dems want this because he's a political opponent and they hate him, or because they want him to win the nomination again. Either way they once again prove their talk about "norms" and the "rule of law" is obvious bs. Such a shaky case that federal prosecutors, and Bragg once before, had already declined to follow through on it. I mean its not but I totaly understand not wanting to acept things you find embarrassing about the politician you like. Asking for a response and simply handwaving away everything someone brings up is pretty funny to me. I could have kept going on like how he handled covid and attacked the data collectors, yet still comes up as like the 13th highest per capita in the nation. I could say how he revoked funding for a sports teams facility after they said something against his politics. Can you list some of these policies "positions most voters find at the very least acceptable"? I don't think government control of business was a popular thing with conservatives but I'm wrong. I would hope people were against human trafficing but I could be wrong about florida. The bills hes advancing and the actions hes taking are going to be hugly unpopular outside of his swamp. Hes deeply underwater against trump and trump is in a much worse spot than he was before Jan6. The dems don't need to do anything for trump to win the nomination again and putting him in jail in some unfounded conspiracy is just an insane risk if it was real. The status quo is supremely beneficial to a biden 2024 run what possible reason would they have to risk that? | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On March 19 2023 22:59 gobbledydook wrote: He's going all in on the anti woke persona and that's not a good way to run a country. I don't think it should be the job of a governor to pick on a minority like the LGBT and legislate to prevent schools from asking for pronouns, or display graphic images of sex reassignment surgeries, as if any major surgery wouldn't be graphic. In any case I don't think he believes any of this crap. He is pandering to his base in a really crass way. At least Trump really believes in what he's saying, offensive as it is. If Ron stuck to MAGA and the economy, I'd respect him a lot more, because he really is an effective governor and anti woke aside, Florida has flourished under his rule. I at least appreciate you saying this much, even if I disagree with the ultimate conclusion you draw that Desantis is an effective governor that Florida has benefitted from. As you say at the top, he's gone all in on the identity politics. He essentially piggybacked on Trump's culture war shit and finally became popular as a result. It was never about policy. It was about sticking it to those pesky minorities. | ||
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Introvert
United States4884 Posts
As for reigning in and even abolishing DEI in the education infrastructure that's the opposite of crazy. Perfectly sane policy to ensure that at least some semblance of competency, merit, and free expression still exist on college campuses. These bureaucracies are not critical to the core mission of a university and imo are detrimental to it. Just for some reason I didn't have gobbledydook as the "shut up and cut taxes" type but maybe that's my misunderstanding. But there is also a huge perspective gap here. I must assume that everyone who blames Republicans for our modern "culture wars" is A) dishonest for political purposes, or B) so completely convinced of their own correctness and moral superiority that they can't countenance the sincerity and validity of opposing views or trying to win people over. It's the left that is trying to change society (and they are rather proud of it!) so blaming conservatives for fighting instead of rolling over is just ridiculous to me. Biden is busy trying to infect the entire federal bureaucracy with this stuff through executive order and some people would just prefer Republicans ignored it. No. But then again throughout my years in this thread I have more than once criticized mushy Republicans for trying to avoid social issues, as if ignoring them meant the status quo wouldn't change. "Shut up and cut taxes" might work as slogan for deep blue states (along with running on just being an able executive) but it's not needed for the rest of the country. Democrats certainly don't behave that way. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45218 Posts
On March 20 2023 05:53 Introvert wrote: As for reigning in and even abolishing DEI in the education infrastructure that's the opposite of crazy. Perfectly sane policy to ensure that at least some semblance of competency, merit, and free expression still exist on college campuses. DEI does not necessarily reject competency, merit, or free expression. Also, free expression might actually be anti-competency, depending on what the expression is (e.g., the freedom to be anti-vaxx), so more context would be needed about what you're referring to. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3277 Posts
Fundamentally DeSantis’ central political identity is the “war on woke” which, generally, means things are happening culturally that conservatives don’t like, and while the “problem” isn’t a government policy, there’s still room to punish it with government power. Disney is too “woke” so you implement tax changes explicitly to punish them. Teachers are too “woke” so you implement changes such that if they admit they’re gay to students they could lose their job. Doctors are too “woke” so state-level policy forbids trans healthcare even for adults. If people are exercising their freedoms in ways you don’t like, so you want to seize government power to punish them, there’s a decent chance you’re an authoritarian. In DeSantis’s case, book bans, cult of personality, and a press office explicitly geared toward personally punishing dissenters certainly make the word seem apt. Compared to Trump he’s definitely more likely to send CPS after parents of trans kids. On the other hand, Trump’s probably more likely to attempt violent overthrow of the government, so ya know, pick your poison. But “more sane version of Trump” just completely misunderstands the guy’s movement. He’s more systematic, the quirks are different, but the guy is more extreme than Trump in some pretty meaningful ways. | ||
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Introvert
United States4884 Posts
On March 20 2023 06:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: DEI does not necessarily reject competency, merit, or free expression. Also, free expression might actually be anti-competency, depending on what the expression is (e.g., the freedom to be anti-vaxx), so more context would be needed about what you're referring to. Sure it does, it prioritizes other things above those three. The most recent example is at Stanford when a Trump appointed federal judge was shouted down and prevented from speaking and the DEI coordinator (or whatever he title was exactly) unofficially endorsed it. And these were, presumably, future lawyers who will have to argue in courtroom around the country. The professors that I had, and I'm sure many of us had, are nothing like these new little tyrants. And least they had some value for free speech dating back to their own decades and in my experience respected opposing views even if those views were drowned out. On March 20 2023 06:50 ChristianS wrote: I mean if putting colleges through political purges led by guys like Chris Rufo is “the opposite of crazy,” I don’t want to be sane. Fundamentally DeSantis’ central political identity is the “war on woke” which, generally, means things are happening culturally that conservatives don’t like, and while the “problem” isn’t a government policy, there’s still room to punish it with government power. Disney is too “woke” so you implement tax changes explicitly to punish them. Teachers are too “woke” so you implement changes such that if they admit they’re gay to students they could lose their job. Doctors are too “woke” so state-level policy forbids trans healthcare even for adults. If people are exercising their freedoms in ways you don’t like, so you want to seize government power to punish them, there’s a decent chance you’re an authoritarian. In DeSantis’s case, book bans, cult of personality, and a press office explicitly geared toward personally punishing dissenters certainly make the word seem apt. Compared to Trump he’s definitely more likely to send CPS after parents of trans kids. On the other hand, Trump’s probably more likely to attempt violent overthrow of the government, so ya know, pick your poison. But “more sane version of Trump” just completely misunderstands the guy’s movement. He’s more systematic, the quirks are different, but the guy is more extreme than Trump in some pretty meaningful ways. that's not actually his central identity, winning FL by 20 shows that. And again your characterization of things like the education bill are just wrong. Unless even like 40% of FL Dems are bigots. Maybe you believe that! it certainly would be easier. A good education, and college and universities have been of core importance to the American experiment since it started. Moreover, states have always set curriculum and getting certain super graphic books out of elementary schools is defensible. I'm pretty sure it's this thread, not me, that's out a limb here. it'd be nice if we could ignore "woke" but unfortunately it's being implanted in more and more places, again I point to Biden's recent executive order. The idea that it's unconservative to oppose things or that conservatives must let universities implement whatever regime they wish using taxpayer dollars like is ludicrous. They may balk at trying to undo the left-wing dominance of the professoriate, but there's no objection to dismantling and defunding a toxic bureaucratic weed. These things actually exist, they are people like the DEI coordinator at Stanford. Real people, real titles, having a real impact. It's not an invented problem. But we'll see, DeSantis didn't just run on woke in FL, and he's smart enough to not make that his whole pitch. | ||
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