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On April 28 2022 06:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 06:48 JimmiC wrote:
Its also a wedge issue that is very popular with recent grads and really unpopular with the skilled trades and non college work force.
Wasnt 10k forgiveness his campaign promise? Maybe something like that is more doable without the downside of having stories about dentists and doctors who make 500k a year getting 200k forgiven. Im not sure the tax implications of the loans in the US but hear people who do not need them will take them and invest it as the loan repayment does not start until 6 months after grad and then you get tax benifits on the repayment. I think Biden mentioned $10K a few times, although I don't remember if that was during the campaign or when he looked into the finer details after already becoming president. If giving people more opportunity is unpopular with the non-college workforce, then they were probably already going to vote Republican anyway.
Yeah the entire idea of someone going republican to spite people will college debt doesn’t make sense. 40% of all debt is owned by people who didn’t even graduate.
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On April 28 2022 07:08 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 07:02 Mohdoo wrote:On April 28 2022 06:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 28 2022 06:48 JimmiC wrote:
Its also a wedge issue that is very popular with recent grads and really unpopular with the skilled trades and non college work force.
Wasnt 10k forgiveness his campaign promise? Maybe something like that is more doable without the downside of having stories about dentists and doctors who make 500k a year getting 200k forgiven. Im not sure the tax implications of the loans in the US but hear people who do not need them will take them and invest it as the loan repayment does not start until 6 months after grad and then you get tax benifits on the repayment. I think Biden mentioned $10K a few times, although I don't remember if that was during the campaign or when he looked into the finer details after already becoming president. If giving people more opportunity is unpopular with the non-college workforce, then they were probably already going to vote Republican anyway. Yeah the entire idea of someone going republican to spite people will college debt doesn’t make sense. 40% of all debt is owned by people who didn’t even graduate. I thought it was 40 of the people. Also, is it not a lot of the for profit schools causing this? Dems would get a lot more traction if they went after the causes instead of the symptoms. Also, another reason that targeted debt relief makes a lot more sense than blanket. The 10k would make a much bigger dent in those who did not finish, id prefer more targeted but its a start. Yes college tuition is the problem, this is only temporarily fixing the symptom. But fixing college tuitions requires Congress and they almost certainly can't get education reform through so tackling debt through EO is doing something, which beats doing nothing.
And it would put more pressure on Congress to find a long term solution.
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Northern Ireland27000 Posts
A genuine reform of tertiary education is patently what’s required, but it requires more complexity and multifaceted reform, joined-up policies and basically everything that is seemingly impossible to do in the US currently.
It’s tuitions, it’s bloat, it’s the 1-2 punch of college degrees being a pre-requisite for far too many jobs, while simultaneously not giving the relative salary bump they used to.
You’d need genuine dictatorial powers to crack that nut considering there’s a legislature that will block even simple and uncontroversial minor legislation.
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Discussing actual wise spread reform to turn the US educational system is just as fruitful as imagining a world without crime or violence. It plain and simply isn’t possible with the modern political system. All that we’ve got is executive orders. We can’t even pass childcare. Literally children well-being reform isn’t possible. We could spend our time wondering mechanisms for reforming humanity’s culture to eliminate all forms of violence, but it’s purely a mental exercise.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong. Let’s take a gander at popularity in the house and senate regarding caring for children without any means to support themselves, completely reliant on the parent lottery. Now let’s ask ourselves how we think adults will fair. When people say “but this isn’t the golden dagger solution which leads to a utopia”, we need something else. It’s not sufficient to say “sorry, not perfect, next”.
Where am I wrong? What can we get done outside of executive orders? What are other executive orders other than forgiveness? Personally I think eliminating federal funding from schools which increase prices beyond inflation fixes the vast majority of problems. It doesn’t require congress
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The united states is filled with history of the president going against the Constitution and never having any consequences for their actions.
Awh shucks the republican controlled Supreme Court knocked down your ability to have a standard of living and getting a house. Too bad I guess we will need you to Pokemon go to the polls for the next few decades until we can make it happen.
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On April 28 2022 09:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 08:28 Mohdoo wrote:
Discussing actual wise spread reform to turn the US educational system is just as fruitful as imagining a world without crime or violence. It plain and simply isn’t possible with the modern political system. All that we’ve got is executive orders. We can’t even pass childcare. Literally children well-being reform isn’t possible. We could spend our time wondering mechanisms for reforming humanity’s culture to eliminate all forms of violence, but it’s purely a mental exercise.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong. Let’s take a gander at popularity in the house and senate regarding caring for children without any means to support themselves, completely reliant on the parent lottery. Now let’s ask ourselves how we think adults will fair. When people say “but this isn’t the golden dagger solution which leads to a utopia”, we need something else. It’s not sufficient to say “sorry, not perfect, next”.
Where am I wrong? What can we get done outside of executive orders? What are other executive orders other than forgiveness? Personally I think eliminating federal funding from schools which increase prices beyond inflation fixes the vast majority of problems. It doesn’t require congress Id totally be down with universal childcare. That is a way better idea,10000x .
I am saying universal child care is completely off the table and not remotely possible. And it is much more likely than university reform. The only option is and will ever be executive action. It’s either choosing to do nothing or executive action.
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On April 28 2022 06:54 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 06:00 Doc.Rivers wrote:
Not sure that January 6th provides a good argument to justify random unconstitutional acts. January 6th is really not the ultimate sword & shield of political argument that dems imagine it to be. If you're referring to Jimmy going to the diner with his grandma on January 6th last year, maybe yeah, that's not a great hoist for a petard. However, most people are referring to that time Trump and a chunk of Republicans in Congress encouraged a violent storming of the nation's Capitol to overturn the results of an election that was decidedly never stolen, with no evidence at any point to corroborate the lie that drove people to attack Congress. What kind of example do you think that sets? Republicans have been awfully quiet in talking about it, it's been over a year. They still want to pretend they have any kind of moral authority whatsoever, on anything, and they don't. They ripped up the book. As Republicans are so fond of saying, don't be upset if people give it back to you.
At least you are open in saying that January 6th provides a blanket justification for subsequent acts by dems. Problem is that's not an argument that judges considering the legality of those acts will entertain.
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On April 28 2022 10:34 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 10:31 Mohdoo wrote:On April 28 2022 09:12 JimmiC wrote:On April 28 2022 08:28 Mohdoo wrote:
Discussing actual wise spread reform to turn the US educational system is just as fruitful as imagining a world without crime or violence. It plain and simply isn’t possible with the modern political system. All that we’ve got is executive orders. We can’t even pass childcare. Literally children well-being reform isn’t possible. We could spend our time wondering mechanisms for reforming humanity’s culture to eliminate all forms of violence, but it’s purely a mental exercise.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong. Let’s take a gander at popularity in the house and senate regarding caring for children without any means to support themselves, completely reliant on the parent lottery. Now let’s ask ourselves how we think adults will fair. When people say “but this isn’t the golden dagger solution which leads to a utopia”, we need something else. It’s not sufficient to say “sorry, not perfect, next”.
Where am I wrong? What can we get done outside of executive orders? What are other executive orders other than forgiveness? Personally I think eliminating federal funding from schools which increase prices beyond inflation fixes the vast majority of problems. It doesn’t require congress Id totally be down with universal childcare. That is a way better idea,10000x . I am saying universal child care is completely off the table and not remotely possible. And it is much more likely than university reform. The only option is and will ever be executive action. It’s either choosing to do nothing or executive action. Im saying that I do not think it is s good way to spend the money or political capital. Fight for something better for more people and preferably on going. Just a check for a smaller amount per person to everyone is as good an idea and you are not picking favorites.
There is no clear mechanism for using executive orders to give free child care. There is an existing, known, characterized mechanism of removing student debt. The two do not compete and they have entirely different methods.
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On April 28 2022 10:38 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 06:54 NewSunshine wrote:On April 28 2022 06:00 Doc.Rivers wrote:
Not sure that January 6th provides a good argument to justify random unconstitutional acts. January 6th is really not the ultimate sword & shield of political argument that dems imagine it to be. If you're referring to Jimmy going to the diner with his grandma on January 6th last year, maybe yeah, that's not a great hoist for a petard. However, most people are referring to that time Trump and a chunk of Republicans in Congress encouraged a violent storming of the nation's Capitol to overturn the results of an election that was decidedly never stolen, with no evidence at any point to corroborate the lie that drove people to attack Congress. What kind of example do you think that sets? Republicans have been awfully quiet in talking about it, it's been over a year. They still want to pretend they have any kind of moral authority whatsoever, on anything, and they don't. They ripped up the book. As Republicans are so fond of saying, don't be upset if people give it back to you. At least you are open in saying that January 6th provides a blanket justification for subsequent acts by dems. Problem is that's not an argument that judges considering the legality of those acts will entertain.
I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying that people who were quick to move on from Trump's mob assaulting and killing people on Capitol grounds, or who want to make excuses for it, have no grounds to criticize anyone else, Democrat or Republican, who is doing something that doesn't even rate on the fucking scale in comparison. If you want to stand in the deep end of the pool and say it's dry, don't go complaining that you're drowning in the shallow end.
I also tend to be of the belief that just because something is unconstitutional or illegal doesn't actually mean it's wrong to do. I think it's important to look at the merits of what the person is doing. Trump was interested in consolidating his power, destroying institutions that wanted to limit him, and ultimately feed his own ego at the expense of everything around him. So I condemn that. I see Biden eyeing a relatively unprecedented move for mass financial aid for millions of Americans, and I'm much more inclined to be OK with that. Call me a hypocrite if you like, that matters more than the letter of the law.
And I say all this as someone who's expressed my cynicism about this move and the timing of it. Holding something in your pocket that amounts to possible financial salvation or freedom for millions just so you can punt the political football at a more strategic time is pretty shitty, in my book. I get the deeper considerations, but it still hurts people.
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On April 28 2022 07:02 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 06:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 28 2022 06:48 JimmiC wrote:
Its also a wedge issue that is very popular with recent grads and really unpopular with the skilled trades and non college work force.
Wasnt 10k forgiveness his campaign promise? Maybe something like that is more doable without the downside of having stories about dentists and doctors who make 500k a year getting 200k forgiven. Im not sure the tax implications of the loans in the US but hear people who do not need them will take them and invest it as the loan repayment does not start until 6 months after grad and then you get tax benifits on the repayment. I think Biden mentioned $10K a few times, although I don't remember if that was during the campaign or when he looked into the finer details after already becoming president. If giving people more opportunity is unpopular with the non-college workforce, then they were probably already going to vote Republican anyway. Yeah the entire idea of someone going republican to spite people will college debt doesn’t make sense. 40% of all debt is owned by people who didn’t even graduate.
I think it's more of a feeling of "I'm paying for this?".
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On April 28 2022 17:59 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 07:02 Mohdoo wrote:On April 28 2022 06:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 28 2022 06:48 JimmiC wrote:
Its also a wedge issue that is very popular with recent grads and really unpopular with the skilled trades and non college work force.
Wasnt 10k forgiveness his campaign promise? Maybe something like that is more doable without the downside of having stories about dentists and doctors who make 500k a year getting 200k forgiven. Im not sure the tax implications of the loans in the US but hear people who do not need them will take them and invest it as the loan repayment does not start until 6 months after grad and then you get tax benifits on the repayment. I think Biden mentioned $10K a few times, although I don't remember if that was during the campaign or when he looked into the finer details after already becoming president. If giving people more opportunity is unpopular with the non-college workforce, then they were probably already going to vote Republican anyway. Yeah the entire idea of someone going republican to spite people will college debt doesn’t make sense. 40% of all debt is owned by people who didn’t even graduate. I think it's more of a feeling of "I'm paying for this?".
Except you already have. Debt already issued by the government isn't money that has to be accounted for in the current budget, the effects of paying out that money have already been felt and accounted for. That's why loan forgiveness is a bit different when it comes to government aid. The relief or forgiveness being granted isn't an action they're taking to provide or pay something, it's an action they're not taking by choosing not to collect.
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On April 28 2022 11:52 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2022 10:38 Doc.Rivers wrote:On April 28 2022 06:54 NewSunshine wrote:On April 28 2022 06:00 Doc.Rivers wrote:
Not sure that January 6th provides a good argument to justify random unconstitutional acts. January 6th is really not the ultimate sword & shield of political argument that dems imagine it to be. If you're referring to Jimmy going to the diner with his grandma on January 6th last year, maybe yeah, that's not a great hoist for a petard. However, most people are referring to that time Trump and a chunk of Republicans in Congress encouraged a violent storming of the nation's Capitol to overturn the results of an election that was decidedly never stolen, with no evidence at any point to corroborate the lie that drove people to attack Congress. What kind of example do you think that sets? Republicans have been awfully quiet in talking about it, it's been over a year. They still want to pretend they have any kind of moral authority whatsoever, on anything, and they don't. They ripped up the book. As Republicans are so fond of saying, don't be upset if people give it back to you. At least you are open in saying that January 6th provides a blanket justification for subsequent acts by dems. Problem is that's not an argument that judges considering the legality of those acts will entertain. I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying that people who were quick to move on from Trump's mob assaulting and killing people on Capitol grounds, or who want to make excuses for it, have no grounds to criticize anyone else, Democrat or Republican, who is doing something that doesn't even rate on the fucking scale in comparison. If you want to stand in the deep end of the pool and say it's dry, don't go complaining that you're drowning in the shallow end. I also tend to be of the belief that just because something is unconstitutional or illegal doesn't actually mean it's wrong to do. I think it's important to look at the merits of what the person is doing. Trump was interested in consolidating his power, destroying institutions that wanted to limit him, and ultimately feed his own ego at the expense of everything around him. So I condemn that. I see Biden eyeing a relatively unprecedented move for mass financial aid for millions of Americans, and I'm much more inclined to be OK with that. Call me a hypocrite if you like, that matters more than the letter of the law.And I say all this as someone who's expressed my cynicism about this move and the timing of it. Holding something in your pocket that amounts to possible financial salvation or freedom for millions just so you can punt the political football at a more strategic time is pretty shitty, in my book. I get the deeper considerations, but it still hurts people.
How? I dont really get it, i could saw Trump's "plan" but this isn't even a plan.
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The key philosophical question is whether government should take on a redistributive role where money is taken from the richer and given to the poorer, or whether government should stick to providing essential services that the private sector could not.
I don't think there will ever be agreement on this, and so the issue of 'is it a good idea to forgive student loans' will always be a partisan issue.
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EPT
