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On April 29 2022 12:20 JimmiC wrote:
I do not think forgiving student loans is a leftist policy. Leftist would be providing every child no matter their zip code the same education and opportunity.
Forgiving student loans also does not move money from the rich to the poor.
It does - the tax money said Republican support paid is going towards covering the shortfall of income caused by the cancellation of the loans, which they didn't support, instead of going towards something they did support, like buying a few more missiles, or reducing their tax burden and having that money stay in their pocket in the first place.
You can argue that it's the wrong attitude, but that stems from a difference in philosophy. They have a real reason to object to it given their worldview.
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On April 29 2022 14:15 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2022 12:20 JimmiC wrote:
I do not think forgiving student loans is a leftist policy. Leftist would be providing every child no matter their zip code the same education and opportunity.
Forgiving student loans also does not move money from the rich to the poor. It does - the tax money said Republican support paid is going towards covering the shortfall of income caused by the cancellation of the loans, which they didn't support, instead of going towards something they did support, like buying a few more missiles, or reducing their tax burden and having that money stay in their pocket in the first place. You can argue that it's the wrong attitude, but that stems from a difference in philosophy. They have a real reason to object to it given their worldview.
Jimmi's point is that blanket student forgiveness also includes people that are already rich (and it's not a small fraction), it's not specifically targeted at poor people, therefore it does not move money from the rich to the poor.
Edit: Substitute 'well-off' for 'rich' above so we don't quibble about what being 'rich' means in this context.
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On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html
Eh, Ukraine's widely considered to be extremely corrupt, down there with the likes of Egypt, Russia, and Nigeria on corruption indexes of all kinds. It's not really a hot take.
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United States43220 Posts
On April 29 2022 23:42 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html Eh, Ukraine's widely considered to be extremely corrupt, down there with the likes of Egypt, Russia, and Nigeria on corruption indexes of all kinds. It's not really a hot take.
Sure but Eric Trump (not the same son as the tweeter but still) embezzled money from a fundraiser for a kid’s cancer charity. He sold tickets to a charity golf event with a specific claim made by the Trumps that they were donating the use of their facilities to the fundraiser free of charge and that the ticket price was going to charity. Unfortunately the golf course didn’t donate the use of the course for free and nor did the admin. They didn’t even charge the regular commercial price. They charged the charity fundraiser event $1.2m for a 1 day tournament and could not itemize or justify that fee. People in glass houses embezzling money from St. Jude Children’s Hospital shouldn’t throw stones.
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On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html
I assume that article was written to insinuate that the Trumps are colluding with Russia. I guess the media will never let go of its collusion narrative, must be too profitable for them. In reality what Jr said was a perfectly reasonable viewpoint. He said let's put the money towards helping Americans rather than worsening a foreign war. Though it is wartime and Jr expect that dissenting opinions are not allowed in America during wartime.
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On April 30 2022 01:41 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2022 23:42 Salazarz wrote:On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html Eh, Ukraine's widely considered to be extremely corrupt, down there with the likes of Egypt, Russia, and Nigeria on corruption indexes of all kinds. It's not really a hot take. It is a hot take because as Kwark puts out their the family corruption, but also their love of other equally corrupt or more corrupt nations. Trump and the Jr's are basically edgelords that for some reason way to many people take serious.
Honestly I thought I understood the Trump thing when it was just edgelords and Trump was the king of the edgelords.
Then people started to pretend he actually had the ability to do something that wasn't stupid, evil, babyish shit and that's where i lose the thread.
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Northern Ireland26035 Posts
On April 30 2022 02:15 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html I assume that article was written to insinuate that the Trumps are colluding with Russia. I guess the media will never let go of its collusion narrative, must be too profitable for them. In reality what Jr said was a perfectly reasonable viewpoint. He said let's put the money towards helping Americans rather than worsening a foreign war. Though it is wartime and Jr expect that dissenting opinions are not allowed in America during wartime.
There’s nothing in there whatsoever insinuating that. I have no doubt other commentators elsewhere have probably gone with that angle but it’s patently not in this brief article.
Don Junior says thing, media report that thing. Do we need to play the martyr for the evil ‘MSM’ on posts where their supposed angle isn’t even present?
It’s a reasonable position, I don’t believe Don Junior whatsoever on the helping Americans part.
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On April 30 2022 03:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2022 02:15 Doc.Rivers wrote:On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html I assume that article was written to insinuate that the Trumps are colluding with Russia. I guess the media will never let go of its collusion narrative, must be too profitable for them. In reality what Jr said was a perfectly reasonable viewpoint. He said let's put the money towards helping Americans rather than worsening a foreign war. Though it is wartime and Jr expect that dissenting opinions are not allowed in America during wartime. There’s nothing in there whatsoever insinuating that. I have no doubt other commentators elsewhere have probably gone with that angle but it’s patently not in this brief article. Don Junior says thing, media report that thing. Do we need to play the martyr for the evil ‘MSM’ on posts where their supposed angle isn’t even present? It’s a reasonable position, I don’t believe Don Junior whatsoever on the helping Americans part.
There are a lot of stories that would not be stories if not for the intended audience's background belief that collusion happened and collusion hysteria was well-founded. Notice how Jimmi immediately brought up the potentiality or the insinuation of collusion. Another example would be the story a year or so ago that Tucker had reached out to Putin to arrange an interview. It's not actually notable for a media member to do that. So the implicit premise of the story was, "maybe Tucker, being a Republican we dont like, is a Russian asset."
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On April 30 2022 02:15 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html In reality what Jr said was a perfectly reasonable viewpoint. He said let's put the money towards helping Americans rather than worsening a foreign war. Though it is wartime and Jr expect that dissenting opinions are not allowed in America during wartime.
Trump (the dad --- Junior is essentially his proxy) had more chances to "put money towards helping Americans" than any human in recent history. If any major legislation pertaining to energy, infrastructure, or education was advanced under his administration, I never heard about it. Junior's tweet is an example of countercyclically caring about something only when the opposition party is in power as a way to score cheap points. He doesn't actually believe his own words.
Also, as Kwark pointed out and as Trump's attempt to extort Zelensky for personal gain illustrated, Trump is openly and unapologetically corrupt. It's a matter of public record that Trump abused his powers of office to screw Ukraine for personal benefit. Again, in decrying Ukraine's "corruption," Junior doesn't actually believe his own words.
So yeah, a reasonable person might think we should withhold aid from Ukraine and spend it on us. I don't mind a person making good-faith arguments for what they believe in. Junior is not that person. He is a partisan hack with a weirdly pro-Russian bent that would be inexplicable if it weren't so very easy to explain.
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On April 30 2022 04:05 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2022 02:15 Doc.Rivers wrote:On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html In reality what Jr said was a perfectly reasonable viewpoint. He said let's put the money towards helping Americans rather than worsening a foreign war. Though it is wartime and Jr expect that dissenting opinions are not allowed in America during wartime. Trump (the dad --- Junior is essentially his proxy) had more chances to "put money towards helping Americans" than any human in recent history. If any major legislation pertaining to energy, infrastructure, or education was advanced under his administration, I never heard about it. Junior's tweet is an example of countercyclically caring about something only when the opposition party is in power as a way to score cheap points. He doesn't actually believe his own words. Also, as Kwark pointed out and as Trump's attempt to extort Zelensky for personal gain illustrated, Trump is openly and unapologetically corrupt. It's a matter of public record that Trump abused his powers of office to screw Ukraine for personal benefit. Again, in decrying Ukraine's "corruption," Junior doesn't actually believe his own words. So yeah, a reasonable person might think we should withhold aid from Ukraine and spend it on us. I don't mind a person making good-faith arguments for what they believe in. Junior is not that person. He is a partisan hack with a weirdly pro-Russian bent that would be inexplicable if it weren't so very easy to explain.
Not sure that Jr is bound by what his dad did or did not do. Even if he is bound, he's being consistent, because Trump Sr was very much in favor of reducing foreign aid for the purpose of helping Americans. He was in favor of rebalancing NATO members' contributions to the alliance and shutting down our military bases in Germany and Japan. But of course those views (which are reasonable on their face) were opposed because Russian collusion. (I think I'm seeing a pattern here.)
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You guys are sounding more and more like Trumpists themselves. Like, Trump family is rotten to the core no doubt about that; but labelling anything you don't like as 'Russian propaganda' simply because it's being put into shitty contexts to make shitty points is no different than orangehead shouting 'FAKE NEWS!! SAD!!!' at everything. UN's corruption perception index puts Ukraine at 122th, right between Philippines and Mexico, so it is not at all wrong to say that it is a highly corrupt country. Does that mean Trump Jr's argument about their corruption to deny support against the invasion is at all genuine? Probably not. But labelling objective reality as 'Russian propaganda' simply because he's using the said objective reality to make bad faith arguments isn't a good way to counter such bad faith arguments.
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Back in 2002 and 2003, many Americans were saying Iraq didn't have WMD. That is exactly what Saddam Hussein was saying, and exactly what Saddam and his state run propaganda media wanted those Americans to say. So were those Americans Iraqi assets spouting Iraqi propaganda?
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On April 30 2022 05:03 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2022 04:05 Djabanete wrote:On April 30 2022 02:15 Doc.Rivers wrote:On April 29 2022 22:45 JimmiC wrote:I am not saying that the Trumps are in Russia's pocket, but they sure spout Russian propaganda, same with Tucker. I guess it gets eye balls and hits and when you realize all they care about is money which means eyeballs, no matter the damage it does you can see why they would do it. They are big fans of wrassilin and they act the heels in WWE. It is sad that so many take what they say as some sort of truth or fact. Trump Jr, Ukraine one of the most corrupt countries in the world. His proof? Of course he provides none because his followers do not require or even want them. They just want to be "right" no matter how dumb their "right" is. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/trump-jr-dubs-ukraine-one-095644210.html In reality what Jr said was a perfectly reasonable viewpoint. He said let's put the money towards helping Americans rather than worsening a foreign war. Though it is wartime and Jr expect that dissenting opinions are not allowed in America during wartime. Trump (the dad --- Junior is essentially his proxy) had more chances to "put money towards helping Americans" than any human in recent history. If any major legislation pertaining to energy, infrastructure, or education was advanced under his administration, I never heard about it. Junior's tweet is an example of countercyclically caring about something only when the opposition party is in power as a way to score cheap points. He doesn't actually believe his own words. Also, as Kwark pointed out and as Trump's attempt to extort Zelensky for personal gain illustrated, Trump is openly and unapologetically corrupt. It's a matter of public record that Trump abused his powers of office to screw Ukraine for personal benefit. Again, in decrying Ukraine's "corruption," Junior doesn't actually believe his own words. So yeah, a reasonable person might think we should withhold aid from Ukraine and spend it on us. I don't mind a person making good-faith arguments for what they believe in. Junior is not that person. He is a partisan hack with a weirdly pro-Russian bent that would be inexplicable if it weren't so very easy to explain. Not sure that Jr is bound by what his dad did or did not do. Even if he is bound, he's being consistent, because Trump Sr was very much in favor of reducing foreign aid for the purpose of helping Americans. He was in favor of rebalancing NATO members' contributions to the alliance and shutting down our military bases in Germany and Japan. But of course those views (which are reasonable on their face) were opposed because Russian collusion. (I think I'm seeing a pattern here.)
I'm not getting into "collusion." I'm disagreeing with your take that Junior is a reasonable guy with a reasonable opinion ("they're corrupt so we should invest in education"), and I'm saying that he's an insincere hack engaging in insincere hackery on the basis that he never minded corruption before and he never cared about spending money on American education before.
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Perhaps we just have a different understanding of what 'propaganda' is. It's an objective fact that corruption is high in Ukraine. Does Russia using that as an excuse for their insane invasion somehow make it less real?
Again, I completely agree that Trump Jr is a corrupt scumbag and that his take of 'Ukraine is corrupt so they don't deserve our aid' is pretty awful, but I do think there's an important distinction to be made. His take is awful because there are ways to deliver aid to Ukraine without it being lost to corruption, and because that aid is very much needed; not because corruption in Ukraine is a Russian fanfic invented by their propagandists and repeated by their puppets.
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On April 30 2022 05:56 Salazarz wrote:
You guys are sounding more and more like Trumpists themselves. Like, Trump family is rotten to the core no doubt about that; but labelling anything you don't like as 'Russian propaganda' simply because it's being put into shitty contexts to make shitty points is no different than orangehead shouting 'FAKE NEWS!! SAD!!!' at everything. UN's corruption perception index puts Ukraine at 122th, right between Philippines and Mexico, so it is not at all wrong to say that it is a highly corrupt country. Does that mean Trump Jr's argument about their corruption to deny support against the invasion is at all genuine? Probably not. But labelling objective reality as 'Russian propaganda' simply because he's using the said objective reality to make bad faith arguments isn't a good way to counter such bad faith arguments.
It's been like that with them for years. I don't think they can help themselves.
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EPT
