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Canada11607 Posts
On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues
Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around?
Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place.
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On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place.
You'd have a point if black people were over-represented in significant numbers in fields that are 'desirable' and actually outcompeting other folks; outside of a very limited number of fringe cases such as NBA, they are not, so your point is utterly pointless and contributes nothing to the discussion.
The fields where black people are over-represented and need to be 'chased away' to other places are, like, crippling poverty, the penitentiary system, and minimum wage manual labor. If you want to discuss policies that would encourage black people moving out of those places and into college education and middle-upper class affording careers, that's a discussion worth having. Talking about over-representation in NBA is not.
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On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place.
There’s a lot of explanations one can imagine for disproportionate representation, potentially including some that include neither essentialism nor systemic discrimination. But it’s been a common refrain in rap lyrics since the 1980’s that the only places a black man can succeed are basketball, drugs, and rapping. Whether or not that’s true, it seems a bit dense to use black success in basketball to *disprove* systemic bias in other areas.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place.
Are there impediments into entering the field, even if one isn’t part of the dominant demographic?
If a bloke particularly wants to be a nurse, that might be notable for not conferring to the general demographic norm, but is it more difficult for him? Or if a woman wants to work on an oil rig?
Personally I feel if, I decided to slightly change tack and go into teaching, more of my colleagues might be women rather then men but there’s little stopping me there.
Whereas there are other scenarios where either systemic prior inequity make it harder for x group to enter y field, or there’s active hostility towards new blood entering fields that are historically dominated by certain demographics.
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On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues
Your theory is possible. Since Asian-Americans seem to be overrepresented in their success in higher education and underrepresented in their success in elite sports is it safe to assume that you also have a theory that Asian-Americans are disproportionately focusing on succeeding in education because they don't have the same opportunities in sports? Asian-Americans get opportunities in STEM but not Sports, and African-Americans get opportunities in Sports but not STEM?
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On February 08 2022 21:07 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2022 20:51 gobbledydook wrote:On February 08 2022 20:26 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 08 2022 20:11 Belisarius wrote:On February 08 2022 19:03 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 08 2022 13:54 BlackJack wrote:On February 07 2022 20:40 Belisarius wrote:On February 07 2022 17:44 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 07 2022 14:59 gobbledydook wrote:
Critical Race Theory is a theory that examines the effect of policies and systems on race, and how policies and systems with no explicit race discrimination can nevertheless favour the majority White race over other races.
There are a few points of contention right now, which are often conflated and result in meaningless arguments.
1) Is the academic CRT theory being taught in schools? Clearly the answer is no.
2) Are white people, overall, achieving better outcomes than black people in the current systems? Clearly the answer is yes.
3) Does the fact that white people achieve better outcomes than black people on average mean the system is unfair? This is something that can be debated. I am inclined to believe that it is indeed harder for black people to excel, given equal talent.
4) Are white people inherently privileged because of that? I find it difficult to argue that this is valid on an individual level and I find it insulting when someone gets told to 'check their white privilege' because they are white.
5) Should it be taught in schools that white people are privileged because of their race? Some school districts were trying to put elements of this concept in their curriculum. I think this is a clear no. I think this is also what most parents that are against CRT are really against, but for lack of a better term blame CRT. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that the conclusion of CRT theory is that white people are privileged.
6) Should standards be lowered for 'non-privileged' races? This is the core concept behind affirmative action, particularly in college admissions and in race quotas. This can be debated, but I think it should be no, and the equity problem described in 3) should be solved by improving the resource allocation earlier in life so black children have the same opportunities as white children, instead of lowering the standards after the fact.
I really like your post here and think it will generate good discussion. I only have time to add to point 3. If a system delivers systematically worse results for a certain subset of people, it's objectively not fair. For instance, if you design a game where only kids abive a certain height can win (say touch a dot with your foot and another with a hand that is very far away) and then you give prizes to the winners, you'd say the game was unfair. I don't think this is debatable. Do you consider professional basketball to be unfair? If not, what do you see as the substantive difference? I'm interested in a response for this as well. I'd say it isn't unfair. I mean, if you put an NBA team against the University of Manchester Basketball team, well yes, it would be unfair. But, at the professional level, all athletes are incredibly gifted individuals, both in talent and in genes and there are typically selection rules in place (like the draft, etc.) to even out the teams. At that point, the main advantages aren't about size and strength but skill and how well they play as a team. But they need a certain level of size to even reach the point where they can play. The average height of an NBA player is 6'6. Every single player in the league is above-average height for the US. It's basically the dot game you invented. So, what's the difference? Given that physical attributes are always going to be necessary for success in sport at some threshold, what is a "fair" sport in your view? I'm not even talking about the race angle. Your analogy seems to suggest that every imaginable competitor has to have an equal chance to win in order for something to be fair, which is quite an out-there proposition. We were talking about education, not sports. I think sometimes simple analogies help to get the point across but obviously break down if you take it too far, as in this case. I think we all agree that every student, no matter where they live or how they look like should have a fair chance at 'winning' in the education system, correct? If a sport like basketball was used as the metric to gauge a student's success in the academic system, then yes, this would be deeply unfair. You will get no argument from me there. Edit: I guess, to answer your question fully: It's about stated outcomes. Professional sports are meant to entertain us with feats of prowess, whereas education is about making sure everyone has a fair chance in life. This has the obvious conclusion that in sports, we will select those athletes that deliver the highest amount of entertainment, regardless of socioeconomic status or ethnicity. The corresponding argument is that education is a way to increase productivity in society because people with more knowledge are more productive. Since some people naturally are better suited to learning knowledge, while others have other gifts, it would be most effective if those who were good learners received the best education. Standardized testing, college admissions criteria etc are all ways to try to do this, since we don't have infinite education resources. This may be where we differ in our basic worldview. I always thought that what was important in society was more along the lines of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' rather than maximising productivity.
Surely the pursuit of happiness would be easier if the person was striving in a direction that they were naturally talented for. And that also, incidentally, drives productivity, because people generally enjoy and excel at things they are good at.
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On February 09 2022 08:58 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place. There’s a lot of explanations one can imagine for disproportionate representation, potentially including some that include neither essentialism nor systemic discrimination. But it’s been a common refrain in rap lyrics since the 1980’s that the only places a black man can succeed are basketball, drugs, and rapping. Whether or not that’s true, it seems a bit dense to use black success in basketball to *disprove* systemic bias in other areas.
I suppose quite a lot of that is also self-fulfilling, because black people perceive basketball as their best chance of success, so they focus on basketball and less on other fields, which means they succeed in basketball and not in other fields, which means the next generation believes the same thing, and so on.
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On February 09 2022 10:29 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 08:58 ChristianS wrote:On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place. There’s a lot of explanations one can imagine for disproportionate representation, potentially including some that include neither essentialism nor systemic discrimination. But it’s been a common refrain in rap lyrics since the 1980’s that the only places a black man can succeed are basketball, drugs, and rapping. Whether or not that’s true, it seems a bit dense to use black success in basketball to *disprove* systemic bias in other areas. I suppose quite a lot of that is also self-fulfilling, because black people perceive basketball as their best chance of success, so they focus on basketball and less on other fields, which means they succeed in basketball and not in other fields, which means the next generation believes the same thing, and so on.
You don't know what the fuck we perceive so don't act like you do. I have a degree in architecture and never pursued any sports. It's a choice to pursue either education or sports. The truly gifted have an opportunity to excel at both. Most pick what they themselves feel is best for them. It's all an individual decision.
Everyone really needs to stop being experts on the Black experience in this thread and get a damn clue.
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Gotta say I didn't necessarily expect the sequence of [talking about Trump's insurrection] > [arguing about CRT] > [talking about what it's like being black despite a black poster warning everyone there's some foot-in-mouth going on], but I can't say it entirely surprises me, either.
I feel like there're much better avenues of discussion this thread could be taking. Almost any of them, really.
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On February 09 2022 10:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 10:29 gobbledydook wrote:On February 09 2022 08:58 ChristianS wrote:On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place. There’s a lot of explanations one can imagine for disproportionate representation, potentially including some that include neither essentialism nor systemic discrimination. But it’s been a common refrain in rap lyrics since the 1980’s that the only places a black man can succeed are basketball, drugs, and rapping. Whether or not that’s true, it seems a bit dense to use black success in basketball to *disprove* systemic bias in other areas. I suppose quite a lot of that is also self-fulfilling, because black people perceive basketball as their best chance of success, so they focus on basketball and less on other fields, which means they succeed in basketball and not in other fields, which means the next generation believes the same thing, and so on. You don't know what the fuck we perceive so don't act like you do. I have a degree in architecture and never pursued any sports. It's a choice to pursue either education or sports. The truly gifted have an opportunity to excel at both. Most pick what they themselves feel is best for them. It's all an individual decision. Everyone really needs to stop being experts on the Black experience in this thread and get a damn clue.
I hope I didn’t imply any expertise on the Black experience, apologies if so.
I also should probably have said “was a common refrain in the 80s and 90s,” not “has been… since the 80s.” I don’t think there are many people in the last ten years saying the “basketball, drugs, and rapping” thing any more.
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On February 09 2022 11:44 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 10:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 09 2022 10:29 gobbledydook wrote:On February 09 2022 08:58 ChristianS wrote:On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place. There’s a lot of explanations one can imagine for disproportionate representation, potentially including some that include neither essentialism nor systemic discrimination. But it’s been a common refrain in rap lyrics since the 1980’s that the only places a black man can succeed are basketball, drugs, and rapping. Whether or not that’s true, it seems a bit dense to use black success in basketball to *disprove* systemic bias in other areas. I suppose quite a lot of that is also self-fulfilling, because black people perceive basketball as their best chance of success, so they focus on basketball and less on other fields, which means they succeed in basketball and not in other fields, which means the next generation believes the same thing, and so on. You don't know what the fuck we perceive so don't act like you do. I have a degree in architecture and never pursued any sports. It's a choice to pursue either education or sports. The truly gifted have an opportunity to excel at both. Most pick what they themselves feel is best for them. It's all an individual decision. Everyone really needs to stop being experts on the Black experience in this thread and get a damn clue. I hope I didn’t imply any expertise on the Black experience, apologies if so. I also should probably have said “was a common refrain in the 80s and 90s,” not “has been… since the 80s.” I don’t think there are many people in the last ten years saying the “basketball, drugs, and rapping” thing any more.
It was an overall catch for everyone. It's usually the same people who say things like "you can't paint conservatives as a monolithic group" while doing the same to minority groups. While generalizations can't be ignored and are certainly helpful in some situations, it's a pretty shite way to talk about a minority race of people that have gone and continue to experience systemic barriers to entry at all levels.
I'm 6'2" and never once did I think I would be a rapper/athlete or whatever. I knew where I was headed. A guy I grew up with and am still friends with was on the team that took Porshe to IPO after attending Cornel (or was it Columbia?). I know others in the same boat. These people, including myself, laid a path out for ourselves like white or asian kids do and pursued it. Those who went the sports route, laid that plan out for themselves and pursued it. Individually did we set upon our paths and whether we succeeded or not was our fault and no one else.
If you want to talk about the Black experience, then I suggest either being careful in your word choice or take it to PM.
For your part ChristianS, you didn't claim expertise or even insinuate it. You said "it seems" as if you were calling from observations and reading up on social and socioeconomic trends within the diversity of the american population. You didn't draw a definite "black people perceive" line, as if you knew that to be a fact.
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On February 09 2022 11:29 NewSunshine wrote:
Gotta say I didn't necessarily expect the sequence of [talking about Trump's insurrection] > [arguing about CRT] > [talking about what it's like being black despite a black poster warning everyone there's some foot-in-mouth going on], but I can't say it entirely surprises me, either.
I feel like there're much better avenues of discussion this thread could be taking. Almost any of them, really.
Well the sequence starting with talking about Trump's insurrection isn't that surprising since it's talked about on every page of this thread from the day it happened
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To be fair, I did say I wasn't surprised. And maybe it's not because people are consistently upset that the Capitol got raided by fascists.
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More evidence that the capitol siege was not centrally coordinated. It was a mob that got out of control, and that’s the story. The Jan 6 Committee is acting like there may have been a central plot, but I'm afraid it's not the case. And I'd have to think they know that by now.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/
Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supporters of then-President Donald Trump...
"Ninety to ninety-five percent of these are one-off cases," said a former senior law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation. "Then you have five percent, maybe, of these militia groups that were more closely organized. But there was no grand scheme with Roger Stone and Alex Jones and all of these people to storm the Capitol and take hostages."
...
Senior lawmakers have been briefed in detail on the results of the FBI's investigation so far and find them credible, a Democratic congressional source said.
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On February 09 2022 12:06 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 11:29 NewSunshine wrote:
Gotta say I didn't necessarily expect the sequence of [talking about Trump's insurrection] > [arguing about CRT] > [talking about what it's like being black despite a black poster warning everyone there's some foot-in-mouth going on], but I can't say it entirely surprises me, either.
I feel like there're much better avenues of discussion this thread could be taking. Almost any of them, really. Well the sequence starting with talking about Trump's insurrection isn't that surprising since it's talked about on every page of this thread from the day it happened
I thought it was primarily brought up again because of how the RNC recently trivialized it, no?
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On February 09 2022 12:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 12:06 BlackJack wrote:On February 09 2022 11:29 NewSunshine wrote:
Gotta say I didn't necessarily expect the sequence of [talking about Trump's insurrection] > [arguing about CRT] > [talking about what it's like being black despite a black poster warning everyone there's some foot-in-mouth going on], but I can't say it entirely surprises me, either.
I feel like there're much better avenues of discussion this thread could be taking. Almost any of them, really. Well the sequence starting with talking about Trump's insurrection isn't that surprising since it's talked about on every page of this thread from the day it happened I thought it was primarily brought up again because of how the RNC recently trivialized it, no?
Yup. The RNC tried to normalize a violent coup on democracy as "legitimate political discourse", and apparently they were onto something, because people are still carrying that torch here.
And then it transitioned, about as elegantly as possible, to some folks trying to speak for black people. I should've made a fucking bingo card.
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On February 09 2022 12:03 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 11:44 ChristianS wrote:On February 09 2022 10:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 09 2022 10:29 gobbledydook wrote:On February 09 2022 08:58 ChristianS wrote:On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place. There’s a lot of explanations one can imagine for disproportionate representation, potentially including some that include neither essentialism nor systemic discrimination. But it’s been a common refrain in rap lyrics since the 1980’s that the only places a black man can succeed are basketball, drugs, and rapping. Whether or not that’s true, it seems a bit dense to use black success in basketball to *disprove* systemic bias in other areas. I suppose quite a lot of that is also self-fulfilling, because black people perceive basketball as their best chance of success, so they focus on basketball and less on other fields, which means they succeed in basketball and not in other fields, which means the next generation believes the same thing, and so on. You don't know what the fuck we perceive so don't act like you do. I have a degree in architecture and never pursued any sports. It's a choice to pursue either education or sports. The truly gifted have an opportunity to excel at both. Most pick what they themselves feel is best for them. It's all an individual decision. Everyone really needs to stop being experts on the Black experience in this thread and get a damn clue. I hope I didn’t imply any expertise on the Black experience, apologies if so. I also should probably have said “was a common refrain in the 80s and 90s,” not “has been… since the 80s.” I don’t think there are many people in the last ten years saying the “basketball, drugs, and rapping” thing any more. It was an overall catch for everyone. It's usually the same people who say things like "you can't paint conservatives as a monolithic group" while doing the same to minority groups. While generalizations can't be ignored and are certainly helpful in some situations, it's a pretty shite way to talk about a minority race of people that have gone and continue to experience systemic barriers to entry at all levels. I'm 6'2" and never once did I think I would be a rapper/athlete or whatever. I knew where I was headed. A guy I grew up with and am still friends with was on the team that took Porshe to IPO after attending Cornel (or was it Columbia?). I know others in the same boat. These people, including myself, laid a path out for ourselves like white or asian kids do and pursued it. Those who went the sports route, laid that plan out for themselves and pursued it. Individually did we set upon our paths and whether we succeeded or not was our fault and no one else. If you want to talk about the Black experience, then I suggest either being careful in your word choice or take it to PM. For your part ChristianS, you didn't claim expertise or even insinuate it. You said "it seems" as if you were calling from observations and reading up on social and socioeconomic trends within the diversity of the american population. You didn't draw a definite "black people perceive" line, as if you knew that to be a fact.
Calm down I obviously do not mean to imply that all Blacks think the same way.
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Fuck it. Worth it.
On February 09 2022 12:29 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 12:03 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 09 2022 11:44 ChristianS wrote:On February 09 2022 10:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On February 09 2022 10:29 gobbledydook wrote:On February 09 2022 08:58 ChristianS wrote:On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place. There’s a lot of explanations one can imagine for disproportionate representation, potentially including some that include neither essentialism nor systemic discrimination. But it’s been a common refrain in rap lyrics since the 1980’s that the only places a black man can succeed are basketball, drugs, and rapping. Whether or not that’s true, it seems a bit dense to use black success in basketball to *disprove* systemic bias in other areas. I suppose quite a lot of that is also self-fulfilling, because black people perceive basketball as their best chance of success, so they focus on basketball and less on other fields, which means they succeed in basketball and not in other fields, which means the next generation believes the same thing, and so on. You don't know what the fuck we perceive so don't act like you do. I have a degree in architecture and never pursued any sports. It's a choice to pursue either education or sports. The truly gifted have an opportunity to excel at both. Most pick what they themselves feel is best for them. It's all an individual decision. Everyone really needs to stop being experts on the Black experience in this thread and get a damn clue. I hope I didn’t imply any expertise on the Black experience, apologies if so. I also should probably have said “was a common refrain in the 80s and 90s,” not “has been… since the 80s.” I don’t think there are many people in the last ten years saying the “basketball, drugs, and rapping” thing any more. It was an overall catch for everyone. It's usually the same people who say things like "you can't paint conservatives as a monolithic group" while doing the same to minority groups. While generalizations can't be ignored and are certainly helpful in some situations, it's a pretty shite way to talk about a minority race of people that have gone and continue to experience systemic barriers to entry at all levels. I'm 6'2" and never once did I think I would be a rapper/athlete or whatever. I knew where I was headed. A guy I grew up with and am still friends with was on the team that took Porshe to IPO after attending Cornel (or was it Columbia?). I know others in the same boat. These people, including myself, laid a path out for ourselves like white or asian kids do and pursued it. Those who went the sports route, laid that plan out for themselves and pursued it. Individually did we set upon our paths and whether we succeeded or not was our fault and no one else. If you want to talk about the Black experience, then I suggest either being careful in your word choice or take it to PM. For your part ChristianS, you didn't claim expertise or even insinuate it. You said "it seems" as if you were calling from observations and reading up on social and socioeconomic trends within the diversity of the american population. You didn't draw a definite "black people perceive" line, as if you knew that to be a fact. Calm down I obviously do not mean to imply that all Blacks think the same way.
You just robbed an entire people of their humanity and don't even realize it. We're not the New Zealand rugby team. You don't walk around saying "The Jews" casually. Or maybe you do. It would appear that you don't realize how offensive and racist your being. The sheer nerve to tell a Black poster to calm down after correcting your ignorance with that air of authority and superiority is disgusting.
The entire conversation was basically you crying that because Black people are "overrepresented" in the NBA, that we don't have a presence elsewhere. We in every faucet of American life and we only get glamorized in sports/fashion/music. Why is that? Start there.
Not going to drag this out and I could give a whole rat's ass of the consequences. But you need to SHUT THE FUCK UP AND DO NOT SPEAK FOR AN ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE AS IF YOU'RE THE FUCKING AUTHORITY ON THEM. Racist pig.
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Canada11607 Posts
On February 09 2022 08:58 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2022 08:45 Falling wrote:On February 09 2022 08:18 ChristianS wrote:
Seems like black people might be disproportionately focusing on succeeding in spaces like NBA precisely *because* they don’t have the same opportunities as whites everywhere else. How is that contradictory to the idea that disproportionate white success indicates bias somewhere in the system?
Edit: fixed some autocorrect issues Does that map onto all differences in demographics? So women dominate as elementary teachers and primary teachers especially because they are cut out of high school? Or women dominate nursing because they are cut out of logging and heavy industry? But couldn't it just as easily be the other way around? Because a group dominates in one field, necessarily there will be less in another? All populations are finite; therefore, 'over'representation in one field must always equal under representation in another. And unless you chase away new blood from the over represented fields, you will continue to see under representation elsewhere, no matter what policy you put in place. There’s a lot of explanations one can imagine for disproportionate representation, potentially including some that include neither essentialism nor systemic discrimination. But it’s been a common refrain in rap lyrics since the 1980’s that the only places a black man can succeed are basketball, drugs, and rapping. Whether or not that’s true, it seems a bit dense to use black success in basketball to *disprove* systemic bias in other areas.
I didn't say that to disprove that there was. I did wonder if the same logic had multiple applications. My point was simply a variation on, just looking at outcomes in representation as evidence one way or the other. It's not at all obvious that a focus on the NBA is because of lack of opportunities elsewhere simply by looking the end numbers. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the end numbers are the wrong place to look to determine that.
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