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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/bruce-harrell-appears-headed-to-victory-in-seattle-mayoral-race-with-more-votes-counted-across-king-county/
When you shame people for saying "hey, maybe human poop and needles being all over the place isn't good", this is what happens. Twitter communists have been screaming about homelessness for a long time and have largely dominated the conversation for the last couple years. I was fully on board, like many others, with the ideas of progressives when it comes to Portland/Seattle homelessness. We're way past that point. One thing that is interesting is seeing progressive policies have their heads in the sand the same way I am used to seeing that in republicans. Despite being clobbered in elections, they insist Twitter is evidence there is some great communist uprising just around the corner, if only people would retweet just a few more times.
Portland/Seattle have been insanely compassionate towards the homeless for the past few years. In both subreddits, any sort of complaint about homelessness 2 years ago would result in tons of downvotes. I was among those who would jump down people's throats for lacking sympathy a few years ago. But at this point the perspectives being put forth by PNW progressives are just not good. It isn't getting us anywhere. Letting homeless people cook meth in RVs, accidentally setting them on fire and releasing tons of fumes in residential areas isn't a positive thing.
In Portland, teachers have to clean out playgrounds before kids go out to play. There will be human shit, needles, you name it. The whole thing is a dumpster fire.
India Walton, a socialist who shocked the political world by winning the Democratic primary for mayor of Buffalo in June, lost by a landslide Tuesday night to the incumbent, mainstream Democratic mayor, who mounted a write-in campaign.
A progressive-backed referendum in Minneapolis to replace the police department with a Department of Public Safety – a measure cast as a "defund the police" effort – was defeated by a 12-percentage point margin.
New York City elected as its new mayor Eric Adams, a former police captain who defeated progressive and socialist candidates in the primary. The same was true in Ohio, where Democrat Shontel Brown won a special election for a congressional seat after defeating democratic socialist Nina Turner, in the August primary. Turner had been a chief surrogate in 2020 for Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont in his unsuccessful presidential bid.
https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2021-11-03/election-losses-by-progressive-democrats-reveal-limits-of-their-influence
The votes really just aren't there. People don't want it. And it is a shame, because I think progressive candidates have a really hard time knowing what to run on. The feedback they get from social media indicates they need to fully embrace the entire list of issues. In reality, the way to win is likely focusing just on the financial aspects of progressive policies. But critical race theory, defund the police and "houselessness" are not winning policies.
Cruise over to Reddit and all you see is people saying "See, if only Manchin didn't hurt the agenda", meanwhile Nina turner lost by 7%.
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On November 04 2021 22:36 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2021 13:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Progressives getting dumpstered in mayor races. Even Seattle. And yet Reddit is like “see this is all Manchin’s fault”. Progressives seem to be unable to realise they are a minority in America despite consistently failing to achieve a majority.
Progressives should get at least a few decades to run the whole show, then, if we look back at what gets decided by the majority.
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United States44286 Posts
If you look at what most of the hard right Q conspiracy lizard people want, it’s a pretty hardline redistributive socialism. They want medical care, debt relief, more worker control in businesses, more job security, fairer pay, government seizures from corporate elites, and so forth and so forth. The problem with reaching these people is that they believe that the elitist ivory tower heir of New York real estate tycoon is going to give it to them and that the Democrats drink the blood of babies.
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On November 05 2021 01:04 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2021 22:36 Gorsameth wrote:On November 04 2021 13:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Progressives getting dumpstered in mayor races. Even Seattle. And yet Reddit is like “see this is all Manchin’s fault”. Progressives seem to be unable to realise they are a minority in America despite consistently failing to achieve a majority. Progressives should get at least a few decades to run the whole show, then, if we look back at what gets decided by the majority.
That might happen some day if progressive at least entertain the idea of pushing for any less than 100% of what they want.
Universal health care? Great
Employee protections? Great
Environmental stuff? Great
The problem is that Twitter starts rubbing their hands together and throws in all their unpopular, polarizing stuff too. It is a really weird situation. Twitter essentially ends up keeping progressives hostage. If someone like Nina Turner or whoever was to be like "maybe we should hold off on CRT", they would be immediately shit-listed by Twitter and there would be massive efforts to destroy her. And so when a progressive tries to actually cater to voters, to advance progressive policies, it all goes to shit. Its a really frustrating situation for someone like me who considers themselves basically communist but also rigidly "ends justify the means".
The one thing that Twitter communists (TC) miss is how often they lose elections and how much time that sets them back. It seems like some of them have convinced themselves letting stuff burn will inspire revolution, and yet here we are. I can remember a few people on this forum talking about how Trump being elected would help to speed up the inevitable end and show people why far left policies are needed. And then we got Biden right after trump LOL.
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On November 05 2021 01:13 KwarK wrote:
If you look at what most of the hard right Q conspiracy lizard people want, it’s a pretty hardline redistributive socialism. They want medical care, debt relief, more worker control in businesses, more job security, fairer pay, government seizures from corporate elites, and so forth and so forth. The problem with reaching these people is that they believe that the elitist ivory tower heir of New York real estate tycoon is going to give it to them and that the Democrats drink the blood of babies. But then you get to the issue that they want medical care, worker control and debt relief but only if their guys are the ones proposing it, and they keep electing guys that want nothing to do with it.
Democrats/progressives could come up with the perfect plan that does everything the Qanon/right wing worker crowd wants and nothing they don't want and they will still scream and shout that it is the work of the devil simply because its proposed by someone with a (D) next to their name and not an (R).
That is where a lot of 'progressive policy X has a majority support, even among Republicans' runs afoul. It doesn't matter that its something they want, so long as its a Democrat proposing it they will oppose it.
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On November 05 2021 02:06 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2021 01:13 KwarK wrote:
If you look at what most of the hard right Q conspiracy lizard people want, it’s a pretty hardline redistributive socialism. They want medical care, debt relief, more worker control in businesses, more job security, fairer pay, government seizures from corporate elites, and so forth and so forth. The problem with reaching these people is that they believe that the elitist ivory tower heir of New York real estate tycoon is going to give it to them and that the Democrats drink the blood of babies. But then you get to the issue that they want medical care, worker control and debt relief but only if their guys are the ones proposing it, and they keep electing guys that want nothing to do with it. Democrats/progressives could come up with the perfect plan that does everything the Qanon/right wing worker crowd wants and nothing they don't want and they will still scream and shout that it is the work of the devil simply because its proposed by someone with a (D) next to their name and not an (R). That is where a lot of 'progressive policy X has a majority support, even among Republicans' runs afoul. It doesn't matter that its something they want, so long as its a Democrat proposing it they will oppose it.
The reason they don't want democrats proposing it is because democrats also come with all the extremely polarizing social stuff like CRT. If Democrats just saved that stuff for later, we'd actually be helping the poor right now.
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On November 05 2021 01:32 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2021 01:04 NewSunshine wrote:On November 04 2021 22:36 Gorsameth wrote:On November 04 2021 13:51 Mohdoo wrote:
Progressives getting dumpstered in mayor races. Even Seattle. And yet Reddit is like “see this is all Manchin’s fault”. Progressives seem to be unable to realise they are a minority in America despite consistently failing to achieve a majority. Progressives should get at least a few decades to run the whole show, then, if we look back at what gets decided by the majority. That might happen some day if progressive at least entertain the idea of pushing for any less than 100% of what they want. Universal health care? Great Employee protections? Great Environmental stuff? Great The problem is that Twitter starts rubbing their hands together and throws in all their unpopular, polarizing stuff too. It is a really weird situation. Twitter essentially ends up keeping progressives hostage. If someone like Nina Turner or whoever was to be like "maybe we should hold off on CRT", they would be immediately shit-listed by Twitter and there would be massive efforts to destroy her. And so when a progressive tries to actually cater to voters, to advance progressive policies, it all goes to shit. Its a really frustrating situation for someone like me who considers themselves basically communist but also rigidly "ends justify the means". The one thing that Twitter communists (TC) miss is how often they lose elections and how much time that sets them back. It seems like some of them have convinced themselves letting stuff burn will inspire revolution, and yet here we are. I can remember a few people on this forum talking about how Trump being elected would help to speed up the inevitable end and show people why far left policies are needed. And then we got Biden right after trump LOL.
Yeah, this is kind of spot-on. If progressives ran on a couple of key, mostly popular issues like $15 minimum wage and universal healthcare, they would have a good chance of forcing that through against the significant opposition because they could reasonably expect to put together a broad coalition of support. Bundle it together with some of the social policy items, though, and it becomes a bit of a poison pill.
I have to commend Bernie Sanders for doing exactly that - focusing on the stuff that matters, most of the time, and being very focused on a core economy-first policy. Someone like AOC is a little more "out there" but has merits as an off-mainstream progressive in the same way that Ted Cruz is for conservatives. But then you bundle them with people like Ilhan Omar who are genuinely unsettling and it really damages the message that would actually have a good chance of making it through. Would be better to have just the people who aren't insane as the face of the movement.
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United States44286 Posts
On November 05 2021 02:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2021 02:06 Gorsameth wrote:On November 05 2021 01:13 KwarK wrote:
If you look at what most of the hard right Q conspiracy lizard people want, it’s a pretty hardline redistributive socialism. They want medical care, debt relief, more worker control in businesses, more job security, fairer pay, government seizures from corporate elites, and so forth and so forth. The problem with reaching these people is that they believe that the elitist ivory tower heir of New York real estate tycoon is going to give it to them and that the Democrats drink the blood of babies. But then you get to the issue that they want medical care, worker control and debt relief but only if their guys are the ones proposing it, and they keep electing guys that want nothing to do with it. Democrats/progressives could come up with the perfect plan that does everything the Qanon/right wing worker crowd wants and nothing they don't want and they will still scream and shout that it is the work of the devil simply because its proposed by someone with a (D) next to their name and not an (R). That is where a lot of 'progressive policy X has a majority support, even among Republicans' runs afoul. It doesn't matter that its something they want, so long as its a Democrat proposing it they will oppose it. The reason they don't want democrats proposing it is because democrats also come with all the extremely polarizing social stuff like CRT. If Democrats just saved that stuff for later, we'd actually be helping the poor right now.
Do Democrats come with CRT though? I don’t recall that being in Hillary’s manifesto, or Biden’s? It was manufactured by a right wing think tank as a way of drumming up outrage. Let’s say that the Democrats had immediately announced that they actually supported the banning of CRT from all schools. Do you really think that would have settled it? It wasn’t in schools in the first place and there were no plans to put it there, the options for creating outrage really are limitless. It would simply be replaced by outrage over converting children to Islam in schools.
This is like post birth abortion controversy. It doesn’t matter that no Democrats support infanticide, it only matters that the Republicans are loud in their opposition of it. There’s no way of winning against that when the voter base is this unsophisticated. If one party positions themselves as the party that opposes X then their low information voters will conclude that the other party supports X, whatever X is. I actually can’t think of an example more absurd than reality, CRT is an advanced college level class that nobody on any side of the political spectrum was putting in schools.
Democrats do not, have never, and will never support CRT in schools for the simple reason that it’s an advanced and niche theory that school students have no use for and lack the appropriate background to understand. And yet you’re here telling me that they come with CRT. That’s how good right wing media is. You propose that they simply avoid these gotcha issues but the fact that this one even exists proves the impossibility of that.
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@Mohdoo
“Portland/Seattle have been insanely compassionate towards the homeless for the past few years. In both subreddits, any sort of complaint about homelessness 2 years ago would result in tons of downvotes.“
The Portland subreddit across the board has shifted its views in a lot of ways, 2 years ago it was complete anti-police, pro antifa. Now after hundreds of nights of straight protests and riots, (albeit small scale and centralized,) most people want the anarchy vibe to end. Combine that with the endless street racing and record murders, AND the homelessness issue and you start to get a serious need for a change in direction. Not sure there is an easy answer.
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On November 05 2021 02:58 Husyelt wrote:@Mohdoo Show nested quote +“Portland/Seattle have been insanely compassionate towards the homeless for the past few years. In both subreddits, any sort of complaint about homelessness 2 years ago would result in tons of downvotes.“ The Portland subreddit across the board has shifted its views in a lot of ways, 2 years ago it was complete anti-police, pro antifa. Now after hundreds of nights of straight protests and riots, (albeit small scale and centralized,) most people want the anarchy vibe to end. Combine that with the endless street racing and record murders, AND the homelessness issue and you start to get a serious need for a change in direction. Not sure there is an easy answer.
Same with r/bayarea.
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On November 05 2021 02:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2021 02:06 Gorsameth wrote:On November 05 2021 01:13 KwarK wrote:
If you look at what most of the hard right Q conspiracy lizard people want, it’s a pretty hardline redistributive socialism. They want medical care, debt relief, more worker control in businesses, more job security, fairer pay, government seizures from corporate elites, and so forth and so forth. The problem with reaching these people is that they believe that the elitist ivory tower heir of New York real estate tycoon is going to give it to them and that the Democrats drink the blood of babies. But then you get to the issue that they want medical care, worker control and debt relief but only if their guys are the ones proposing it, and they keep electing guys that want nothing to do with it. Democrats/progressives could come up with the perfect plan that does everything the Qanon/right wing worker crowd wants and nothing they don't want and they will still scream and shout that it is the work of the devil simply because its proposed by someone with a (D) next to their name and not an (R). That is where a lot of 'progressive policy X has a majority support, even among Republicans' runs afoul. It doesn't matter that its something they want, so long as its a Democrat proposing it they will oppose it. The reason they don't want democrats proposing it is because democrats also come with all the extremely polarizing social stuff like CRT. If Democrats just saved that stuff for later, we'd actually be helping the poor right now. I don't think I buy that excuse.
You mean to tell me the democrats have never proposed majority supported progressive legislation without attaching something poisonous to it?
If there isn't something bad attached to legislation Republicans will simply make something up. Obamacare got death panels that would decide to kill your grandma to name the first example that pops into my head.
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I honestly don't believe the democrats in general want progressive things. Remember the ACA, where they were just one vote away from getting the public option? Or more recently with the federal minimum wage increase? I honestly believe if there were 100 democrats in the senate, 51 would "have reservations" about such legislation just like Sinema/Manchin. As much as we love to vilify republicans, the wealthy "elite" democrats are just as happy riding out the status quo as opposed to actually making progress. And I have no idea how to fix that.
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Northern Ireland27343 Posts
On November 05 2021 03:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2021 02:58 Husyelt wrote:@Mohdoo “Portland/Seattle have been insanely compassionate towards the homeless for the past few years. In both subreddits, any sort of complaint about homelessness 2 years ago would result in tons of downvotes.“ The Portland subreddit across the board has shifted its views in a lot of ways, 2 years ago it was complete anti-police, pro antifa. Now after hundreds of nights of straight protests and riots, (albeit small scale and centralized,) most people want the anarchy vibe to end. Combine that with the endless street racing and record murders, AND the homelessness issue and you start to get a serious need for a change in direction. Not sure there is an easy answer. People want to hear solutions not just talk about problems. The policy's of moving the money from police funding into precrime programs around addressing inequity made sense to many and was very progressive. People who took the defund/abolish the police as literal and complete were not progressive they were more or less just anarchists/libertarian. It is ending up as a really bad look but as Kwark pointed out a few posts up whether or not it is what progressive want is fairly irrelevant because so few people put in the time and effort to get past the headlines and slogans.
Indeed.
Not throwing homeless people in jail for well, being homeless, or having substance abuse problems is far as I can tell, and my personal view a crucial part of dealing with the issue of homelessness that is complicated and multifaceted.
Likewise defunding the police is meant to encompass a commensurate refunding of all sorts of other programs.
It’s a bad look if you do the ‘not prosecuting crime’ without doing anything about the other part, all you’ll end up with is horrendous anti-social behaviour with no mechanisms to moderate or rehabilitate that behaviour.
As regulars to this thread know I’m pretty firmly established rather way out left, hell I’ve been long term institutionalised, so I’m pretty sympathetic to the mentally ill.
Even I think that in the absence of the above, it’s probably preferable to enforce the law than have the worst of both worlds, so what the fuck are Joe and Jane average going by to think?
I must stress that I prefer a less punitive approach with proper support mechanisms, by an order of magnitude, but I’ve lived with some pretty bloody scary, perpetually unstable people, the idea of giving them carte blanche is a fucking terrible idea
I think it’s close to the worst possible policy in terms of effectively dealing with an issue, and it’s 100% the worst possible policy in a political optics sense.
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On November 05 2021 02:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2021 02:08 Mohdoo wrote:On November 05 2021 02:06 Gorsameth wrote:On November 05 2021 01:13 KwarK wrote:
If you look at what most of the hard right Q conspiracy lizard people want, it’s a pretty hardline redistributive socialism. They want medical care, debt relief, more worker control in businesses, more job security, fairer pay, government seizures from corporate elites, and so forth and so forth. The problem with reaching these people is that they believe that the elitist ivory tower heir of New York real estate tycoon is going to give it to them and that the Democrats drink the blood of babies. But then you get to the issue that they want medical care, worker control and debt relief but only if their guys are the ones proposing it, and they keep electing guys that want nothing to do with it. Democrats/progressives could come up with the perfect plan that does everything the Qanon/right wing worker crowd wants and nothing they don't want and they will still scream and shout that it is the work of the devil simply because its proposed by someone with a (D) next to their name and not an (R). That is where a lot of 'progressive policy X has a majority support, even among Republicans' runs afoul. It doesn't matter that its something they want, so long as its a Democrat proposing it they will oppose it. The reason they don't want democrats proposing it is because democrats also come with all the extremely polarizing social stuff like CRT. If Democrats just saved that stuff for later, we'd actually be helping the poor right now. Do Democrats come with CRT though? I don’t recall that being in Hillary’s manifesto, or Biden’s? It was manufactured by a right wing think tank as a way of drumming up outrage. Let’s say that the Democrats had immediately announced that they actually supported the banning of CRT from all schools. Do you really think that would have settled it? It wasn’t in schools in the first place and there were no plans to put it there, the options for creating outrage really are limitless. It would simply be replaced by outrage over converting children to Islam in schools. This is like post birth abortion controversy. It doesn’t matter that no Democrats support infanticide, it only matters that the Republicans are loud in their opposition of it. There’s no way of winning against that when the voter base is this unsophisticated. If one party positions themselves as the party that opposes X then their low information voters will conclude that the other party supports X, whatever X is. I actually can’t think of an example more absurd than reality, CRT is an advanced college level class that nobody on any side of the political spectrum was putting in schools. Democrats do not, have never, and will never support CRT in schools for the simple reason that it’s an advanced and niche theory that school students have no use for and lack the appropriate background to understand. And yet you’re here telling me that they come with CRT. That’s how good right wing media is. You propose that they simply avoid these gotcha issues but the fact that this one even exists proves the impossibility of that.
Remarkable isn't it?
On November 05 2021 04:14 mierin wrote:
I honestly don't believe the democrats in general want progressive things. Remember the ACA, where they were just one vote away from getting the public option? Or more recently with the federal minimum wage increase? I honestly believe if there were 100 democrats in the senate, 51 would "have reservations" about such legislation just like Sinema/Manchin. As much as we love to vilify republicans, the wealthy "elite" democrats are just as happy riding out the status quo as opposed to actually making progress. And I have no idea how to fix that.
They really don't and the sooner people who do want them recognize that the sooner we can get them.
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On November 05 2021 04:40 JimmiC wrote:The democrats are so far from a monolith because of the system and the nature of how small a piece of the political spectrum the republicans take up. Right now the Democrats are basically a minority government/coalition. In most other places in the world you couldn't have Biden Manchin and OAC all in the same party their views and electorate are far to different. They could, but there would be coalition negotiations before they former a government together where they decided on what parts of each others agenda's they would support. And if they can't agree on that there is no government.
Instead of doing it after forming a government which is what is happening now.
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On November 05 2021 04:14 mierin wrote:
I honestly don't believe the democrats in general want progressive things. Remember the ACA, where they were just one vote away from getting the public option? Or more recently with the federal minimum wage increase? I honestly believe if there were 100 democrats in the senate, 51 would "have reservations" about such legislation just like Sinema/Manchin. As much as we love to vilify republicans, the wealthy "elite" democrats are just as happy riding out the status quo as opposed to actually making progress. And I have no idea how to fix that.
Munchkin and Sinema are the fall guys more often than not. Senator #48 doesn't have to speak up about "having reservations" if #49 and #50 already tanked the progressive policy without them.
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EPT
