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On October 03 2021 07:24 JimmiC wrote:You would hope Guliani admiting underoath he has no real source on the election and took garbage off facebook without checking it would mattet. But given that is how all the people that still believe that crap get their info Im sure it is not. So far the best think has been that even fox news banned him and didnlt even have him on for their big 10th anniversary 9/11 show. He has tarnished his image so bad that hes earasing himself from his biggest moment. Pretty wild how his actiins over the last 5 years have changed his image. It really does work out well of anyone who ties themselves to Trump, short term boost lomg term embarrassment-jailtime. https://ca.yahoo.com/news/rudy-guiliani-admits-under-oath-100908876.htmlEdit: I guess unless you write a book about he acts, those seem to always sell since there is so much wild and awful things he does. Not even so much the last 5 years. He probably would have been fine with everything except trying to overturn a legitimate election.
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"Why wouldn't I believe him? I would have to have been a terrible lawyer… gee, let's go find out it's untrue. I didn't have the time to do that."
And people wonder why jurists are considered the bottom of the barrel.
I mean, gee, let's go find out if a piece of evidence given to me is untrue lol. I'll just parrot all the shit given to me, in which world would a guy who works laws have the time to check whether or not anything he says is true. In a field where you're supposed to find the truth. Gee.
That guy genuinely is brain damaged. As in, yeah he's funny stupendous, but i actually think he must've had a stroke or something, a normal person can't, just can't be that idiotic. There must've been a moment where all synapses fired at once.
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To be fair, this is not about jurists. I think you have to search for a long time to find another lawyer that is as questionable as Rudy is. I mean, it's hard to make up how this specific case played out. Especially outside the US.
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This attack on women's reproductive health is really unprecedented. 19 states have enacted 106 new abortion restrictions in 2021. Women from Texas are going to bordering Ohio and Arkansas to try to get abortions, but those states are attempting to enact restrictions as well, and some of their clinics are being overwhelmed by the numbers. We know that Congress is paralyzed to stop this kind of stuff (or will even pile on if R's take control), but we've yet to see if the judiciary too will abandon our nation's women.
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On October 11 2021 04:17 JimmiC wrote:
The bonus of the Republicans going full evil and fully embracing QAnon publicly, is it has totally smashed the both parties are the same argument. You can still say both parties are bad, or have corruption or whatever. But they are not remotely the same. If you at all believe in science, women's rights, democracy and so one, one party is clearly better.
Yeah, but it leads to a lot of bad stuff in a two party system if only one party is remotely sane. This means that no matter what the democrats do, you have to vote for them, because the republicans are just insane and evil. And i don't think that that situation leads to a party pursuing the good of the people.
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On October 11 2021 04:49 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2021 04:17 JimmiC wrote:
The bonus of the Republicans going full evil and fully embracing QAnon publicly, is it has totally smashed the both parties are the same argument. You can still say both parties are bad, or have corruption or whatever. But they are not remotely the same. If you at all believe in science, women's rights, democracy and so one, one party is clearly better.
Yeah, but it leads to a lot of bad stuff in a two party system if only one party is remotely sane. This means that no matter what the democrats do, you have to vote for them, because the republicans are just insane and evil. And i don't think that that situation leads to a party pursuing the good of the people.
This is my mindset, further compelling people to vote for Democrats by virtue of Republicans being psychopathic monsters is actively a bad thing. This just lets Democrats sell out harder because who else you gonna vote for? Republicans?
Its a serious downside to this two party nonsense system.
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In a two party system, you're supposed to be able to vote for the lesser evil. If everyone voted for the lesser evil, then one party would take all the power and the greater evil party would lose all the power. To regain power, they'd have to find ways to be better than the other party and get people to vote for them. You can look better by making your opponent look bad, and that is the easier route that both parties take, but you still have to look better. In the system, you're supposed to end up with a race to the top and an eventual equilibrium between philosophical differences.
The problem we're facing in the United States is that people don't agree on who the greater evil is. Pretty close to half the voters are voting Republican. It's not all about gerrymandering either. The popular presidential vote in 2020 was 51.3% to 46.9%, quite close. That was with a moderate vs Trump. The Progressives got pretty thoroughly trounced by the moderates in the democratic primary, much worse than Trump did.
In the United States, the progressives have made their case and the majority would take a moderate or Trump over them. You can say that Americans are wrong, they might be. You can say that the voting system sucks, I can think of multiple ways I'd change it.
However, the fight that the progressives here need to fight is the one where the majority sees the progressives as the greater evil. All the other stuff is just a sideshow.
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On October 11 2021 09:36 RenSC2 wrote:
In a two party system, you're supposed to be able to vote for the lesser evil. If everyone voted for the lesser evil, then one party would take all the power and the greater evil party would lose all the power. To regain power, they'd have to find ways to be better than the other party and get people to vote for them. You can look better by making your opponent look bad, and that is the easier route that both parties take, but you still have to look better. In the system, you're supposed to end up with a race to the top and an eventual equilibrium between philosophical differences.
The problem we're facing in the United States is that people don't agree on who the greater evil is. Pretty close to half the voters are voting Republican. It's not all about gerrymandering either. The popular presidential vote in 2020 was 51.3% to 46.9%, quite close. That was with a moderate vs Trump. The Progressives got pretty thoroughly trounced by the moderates in the democratic primary, much worse than Trump did.
In the United States, the progressives have made their case and the majority would take a moderate or Trump over them. You can say that Americans are wrong, they might be. You can say that the voting system sucks, I can think of multiple ways I'd change it.
However, the fight that the progressives here need to fight is the one where the majority sees the progressives as the greater evil. All the other stuff is just a sideshow.
Yeah, and i am completely dumbfounded by that situation. I can absolutely accept that progressives might not be a majority. That stuff happens.
But i seriously just cannot comprehend why people still vote republican. That party is openly insane and generally as evil as possible on any topic. But even if you ignore their evilness, they are still simply insane. But apparently they found some kind of hack into the human psyche that lets people still vote for them. Which means that the US is now stuck with elections of insane evil vs corrupt centrists.
I am certain some major mistakes were made to get the US to this point, and in my opinion, the voting system is the core that ultimately let to this complete failure as a nation. 2 party FPTP leads to this win at any cost, gotta beat the other guy mentality. It leads to trying to sabotage anything the other guy does, because you need to win the next election, and we cannot have the other guy look good. It leads to party spin media like faux "news". And it leads to tribal mentality protecting your party against all criticism, because the other guy is even worse.
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On October 11 2021 08:48 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2021 04:49 Simberto wrote:On October 11 2021 04:17 JimmiC wrote:
The bonus of the Republicans going full evil and fully embracing QAnon publicly, is it has totally smashed the both parties are the same argument. You can still say both parties are bad, or have corruption or whatever. But they are not remotely the same. If you at all believe in science, women's rights, democracy and so one, one party is clearly better.
Yeah, but it leads to a lot of bad stuff in a two party system if only one party is remotely sane. This means that no matter what the democrats do, you have to vote for them, because the republicans are just insane and evil. And i don't think that that situation leads to a party pursuing the good of the people. This is my mindset, further compelling people to vote for Democrats by virtue of Republicans being psychopathic monsters is actively a bad thing. This just lets Democrats sell out harder because who else you gonna vote for? Republicans? Its a serious downside to this two party nonsense system.
While the 2 party system isn't ideal, you can't really blame it for people not rallying behind the most progressive/leftist ideas proposed. Especially when there is absolutely ridiculous shit in there like "defund the police".
The democrats main issue seems to be that their left wing is actively alienating anyone closer to the center while feeling all high and mighty about it, It seems to be a clear losing strategy everywhere but the utmost blue states. Maybe this is just the online bubble but the stuff "leftists" say about anyone not being 100% on their line is a surefire way to lose for all eternity.
Oh and you seriously gotta do something about your media machine... Be it Facebook, Fox or CNN.
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"Complete failure of a nation" is a gross overexaggeration of problems US faces. US is doing very well, by the worlds standards. Sure they have some problems which will be hard to fix but calling states "failure of nation" is just wrong and unfair.
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The US is a nation where half the population thinks that pissing off the other half is reason enough for pilicy.
It is a nation that actively ignores the most pressing issue of our times, climate change. Half the population believes climate change is not a real thing while their homes get destroyed by tornados
It is a nation that managed to make reacting to a pandemic a political issue.
It is the nation with the highest incarceration rate in the world.
It is a nation where unarmed people regularly get shot by the police, and half the population supports the police in doing so.
It is a nation where there was a fascist attempt to overthrow the elected government just this year, and the party of said fascists still get about 50% of the votes.
It is a nation where people do not go to the doctor because they cannot afford it, and half of the population thinks this is a good thing.
And it is a country where no one can see a way out of all of these problems.
Yes, it is not North Korea (yet). But for a wealthy nation, it is an abject failure of a nation. And it has only been getting worse.
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On October 11 2021 16:51 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2021 08:48 Zambrah wrote:On October 11 2021 04:49 Simberto wrote:On October 11 2021 04:17 JimmiC wrote:
The bonus of the Republicans going full evil and fully embracing QAnon publicly, is it has totally smashed the both parties are the same argument. You can still say both parties are bad, or have corruption or whatever. But they are not remotely the same. If you at all believe in science, women's rights, democracy and so one, one party is clearly better.
Yeah, but it leads to a lot of bad stuff in a two party system if only one party is remotely sane. This means that no matter what the democrats do, you have to vote for them, because the republicans are just insane and evil. And i don't think that that situation leads to a party pursuing the good of the people. This is my mindset, further compelling people to vote for Democrats by virtue of Republicans being psychopathic monsters is actively a bad thing. This just lets Democrats sell out harder because who else you gonna vote for? Republicans? Its a serious downside to this two party nonsense system. While the 2 party system isn't ideal, you can't really blame it for people not rallying behind the most progressive/leftist ideas proposed. Especially when there is absolutely ridiculous shit in there like "defund the police". The democrats main issue seems to be that their left wing is actively alienating anyone closer to the center while feeling all high and mighty about it, It seems to be a clear losing strategy everywhere but the utmost blue states. Maybe this is just the online bubble but the stuff "leftists" say about anyone not being 100% on their line is a surefire way to lose for all eternity. Oh and you seriously gotta do something about your media machine... Be it Facebook, Fox or CNN.
Two party systems actively kill any outside parties though. You have to meet an incredibly hard to meet threshold to basically overthrow and consume an existing party to get in an, and obvious when you have super powerful entrenched parties they're not going to just let themselves be consumed by someone who they view as threatening their interests.
The progressive issue is progressives somehow being the ones guilty of demanding everything be 100% their way when we have the likes of Joe Manchin and Kirsten Sinema around, ostensibly our "center" politicians, who are dramatically influence policy in their favor else they tell you to fuck off. They're AT LEAST as bad as the progressives are, and they're doing what they do for way shittier reasons than progressives do things.
Also this supposition that centrism is the only way to win is silly, centrist Democrats are strategically mediocre, they've been doing their centrist shtick since Bill Clinton, they've lost to George Bush and Donald Trump with the strict adherence to centrism. Republicans continue to slide to the right, redefining what the center even is, committing to the center so hard just leads everyone to the right.
To be fair,
The US is a nation where half the population thinks that pissing off the other half is reason enough for pilicy.
Its probably less than half, half the voting population sure, but thats still only like half the country, lol
It is a nation where there was a fascist attempt to overthrow the elected government just this year, and the party of said fascists still get about 50% of the votes.
I still think this is underappreciated. One of the most egregious acts of sedition in our history and there have been fuck all for real consequences for it, that is an unfathomably harmful precedent to have set.
And it is a country where no one can see a way out of all of these problems.
Plenty of people can see ways out of a lot of these problems, they just don't have any power because our government is controlled by money, and moneys only concern is making more money, no thought or interest in anything beyond that.
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On October 11 2021 17:14 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2021 16:51 Velr wrote:On October 11 2021 08:48 Zambrah wrote:On October 11 2021 04:49 Simberto wrote:On October 11 2021 04:17 JimmiC wrote:
The bonus of the Republicans going full evil and fully embracing QAnon publicly, is it has totally smashed the both parties are the same argument. You can still say both parties are bad, or have corruption or whatever. But they are not remotely the same. If you at all believe in science, women's rights, democracy and so one, one party is clearly better.
Yeah, but it leads to a lot of bad stuff in a two party system if only one party is remotely sane. This means that no matter what the democrats do, you have to vote for them, because the republicans are just insane and evil. And i don't think that that situation leads to a party pursuing the good of the people. This is my mindset, further compelling people to vote for Democrats by virtue of Republicans being psychopathic monsters is actively a bad thing. This just lets Democrats sell out harder because who else you gonna vote for? Republicans? Its a serious downside to this two party nonsense system. While the 2 party system isn't ideal, you can't really blame it for people not rallying behind the most progressive/leftist ideas proposed. Especially when there is absolutely ridiculous shit in there like "defund the police". The democrats main issue seems to be that their left wing is actively alienating anyone closer to the center while feeling all high and mighty about it, It seems to be a clear losing strategy everywhere but the utmost blue states. Maybe this is just the online bubble but the stuff "leftists" say about anyone not being 100% on their line is a surefire way to lose for all eternity. Oh and you seriously gotta do something about your media machine... Be it Facebook, Fox or CNN. Two party systems actively kill any outside parties though. You have to meet an incredibly hard to meet threshold to basically overthrow and consume an existing party to get in an, and obvious when you have super powerful entrenched parties they're not going to just let themselves be consumed by someone who they view as threatening their interests. The progressive issue is progressives somehow being the ones guilty of demanding everything be 100% their way when we have the likes of Joe Manchin and Kirsten Sinema around, ostensibly our "center" politicians, who are dramatically influence policy in their favor else they tell you to fuck off. They're AT LEAST as bad as the progressives are, and they're doing what they do for way shittier reasons than progressives do things. Also this supposition that centrism is the only way to win is silly, centrist Democrats are strategically mediocre, they've been doing their centrist shtick since Bill Clinton, they've lost to George Bush and Donald Trump with the strict adherence to centrism. Republicans continue to slide to the right, redefining what the center even is, committing to the center so hard just leads everyone to the right. To be fair, Show nested quote +The US is a nation where half the population thinks that pissing off the other half is reason enough for pilicy. Its probably less than half, half the voting population sure, but thats still only like half the country, lol Show nested quote +It is a nation where there was a fascist attempt to overthrow the elected government just this year, and the party of said fascists still get about 50% of the votes. I still think this is underappreciated. One of the most egregious acts of sedition in our history and there have been fuck all for real consequences for it, that is an unfathomably harmful precedent to have set. Show nested quote +And it is a country where no one can see a way out of all of these problems. Plenty of people can see ways out of a lot of these problems, they just don't have any power because our government is controlled by money, and moneys only concern is making more money, no thought or interest in anything beyond that.
Your last point was basically what i meant with "no one can see a way out of all of this". Yes, people see ways out of this, but no one sees a way to actually get the stuff you would need to get out of this implemented through the system.
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Ah, fair, I agree. We're basically at the mercy of a system run by people who don't give a fuck.
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I don't disagree that the right wing democrats are horrible... But when i look at how Biden won against Trump, it seems to me you mainly were plain lucky that Trump is such a giant asshole that made him undesireable for quite a few "independants" that else would have voted republican whiteout thinking much about it.
On Manchin and the other right wing democrats... Well, if not for them Democrats would most likely not have these seats. How much good such seats do we'll see in the near future, so far it doesn't look promising but still better than when these seats would have been held by republicans.
A progressive that isn't voting for Biden/Democrat in my book is a plain stupid and damaging his chances to even get a sliver of the agenda he wants passed. Thats why progressive alienating "centrists" is harmfull. Atm progressive politics just doesn't seem as popular in the US as a whole as many progressives seem to think and telling the others it's just because they're stupid or don't get it, isn't helfpull.
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On October 11 2021 16:56 Silvanel wrote:
"Complete failure of a nation" is a gross overexaggeration of problems US faces. US is doing very well, by the worlds standards. Sure they have some problems which will be hard to fix but calling states "failure of nation" is just wrong and unfair.
The US is doing well now, but it's on a trajectory where it could realistically become a fascist dictatorship in the next couple of decades.
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On October 11 2021 18:58 Velr wrote:
I don't disagree that the right wing democrats are horrible... But when i look at how Biden won against Trump, it seems to me you mainly were plain lucky that Trump is such a giant asshole that made him undesireable for quite a few "independants" that else would have voted republican whiteout thinking much about it.
On Manchin and the other right wing democrats... Well, if not for them Democrats would most likely not have these seats. How much good such seats do we'll see in the near future, so far it doesn't look promising but still better than when these seats would have been held by republicans.
A progressive that isn't voting for Biden/Democrat in my book is a plain stupid and damaging his chances to even get a sliver of the agenda he wants passed. Thats why progressive alienating "centrists" is harmfull. Atm progressive politics just doesn't seem as popular in the US as a whole as many progressives seem to think and telling the others it's just because they're stupid or don't get it, isn't helfpull.
I think your analysis of why Trump lost is off, its putting a lot of effect on independents, when I'd argue that Trump lost because of way higher voter turnout than normal (and the Coronavirus, obviously).
Secondly, yeah, sure maybe Manchin is nice to have now, when he leaves politics his seat is gone though. Donezo, youre never getting it back. Letting an ostensibly red state dictate so much of our politics is terrible long term strategy because they are not the Democrat electorate right now. Manchin sabotaging the Democrats, 1. makes the Democrats look incompetent, and 2. prevents the Democrats from doing the things that Democrats want them to do, these things combined make elections harder for Democrats. Manchin is not a net positive long term, he's an anchor and we have to stop giving him so much importance.
The safest way to ensure Democrats win elections is to increase voter turnout, there aren't that many independents in the US that are going to swing their votes, whereas massive swaths of the country dont usually vote. Making people disaffected with politics believe that Democrats can do some real good in their lives, thus incentivizing them to keep them in office, is a way stronger strategy long term than fighting over the tiny sliver of voters that may switch their votes between parties imo.
Progressive politics are often pretty popular, people in the US when polled are often in favor of things like universal healthcare, and taxing the ultra-wealthy, plenty of progressive policy is very popular. It doesnt seem as popular because thats the narrative, that progressives are pie in the sky types who demand everything go their way all the time, in reality progressives just want meaningful change to the abhorrent things the US does to it's citizens.
15 dollar minimum wage is another good example. One of those sort of core Biden campaign promises that now make the Democrats look stupid/incompetent/callous for reneging on.
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EPT
