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On September 25 2021 17:34 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 06:28 JimmiC wrote:On September 25 2021 05:06 brian wrote:
i think there are probably still some conservatives that aren’t trump supporters, so i think it’s some small service to call out trump supporters in that context than republicans generally. unfortunately in my family those don’t exist. but i have to imagine?
but i don’t disagree with your point otherwise. I think you are right, and I think that if they are politically aware they are trying to figure out what to do now that the Republican party is not a conservative party any more. I think there is also a group of Republicans that are not that politically aware and just assume that what the Rep party does and says is "conservative". It is a very strange time when there are only two parties in such a rich, powerful and large country and one has decided that reality is just not that important, let alone political ideologies like conservatism. Yeah, that is the strange thing. And even stranger is that that party is still competitive. This makes the whole situation basically a one party setup for sane people, which sucks, because not having any choice when voting isn't a good thing for democracy, and doesn't lead to the people in power doing what is good for the people voting for them, either. But the fact of the matter is that nearly half of the country is still voting for a party which is simply insane and evil. A multi-party system might be better here, but an electorate which wouldn't vote for Darth Vader (R) would also help.
Not that strange when you consider Biden explicitly said while campaigning “If you hear people on the rope line saying, ‘I’m a Republican,’ I say, ‘Stay a Republican.’ Vote for me but stay a Republican, because we need a Republican Party.” So even if Republicans voted Biden, he wants them to keep electing Republicans because he needs them.
Meanwhile the Republicans are led in the Senate by a guy who said: "One-hundred percent of our focus is on stopping this new administration,"
Wonder what he needs them for?
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On September 25 2021 18:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 17:34 Simberto wrote:On September 25 2021 06:28 JimmiC wrote:On September 25 2021 05:06 brian wrote:
i think there are probably still some conservatives that aren’t trump supporters, so i think it’s some small service to call out trump supporters in that context than republicans generally. unfortunately in my family those don’t exist. but i have to imagine?
but i don’t disagree with your point otherwise. I think you are right, and I think that if they are politically aware they are trying to figure out what to do now that the Republican party is not a conservative party any more. I think there is also a group of Republicans that are not that politically aware and just assume that what the Rep party does and says is "conservative". It is a very strange time when there are only two parties in such a rich, powerful and large country and one has decided that reality is just not that important, let alone political ideologies like conservatism. Yeah, that is the strange thing. And even stranger is that that party is still competitive. This makes the whole situation basically a one party setup for sane people, which sucks, because not having any choice when voting isn't a good thing for democracy, and doesn't lead to the people in power doing what is good for the people voting for them, either. But the fact of the matter is that nearly half of the country is still voting for a party which is simply insane and evil. A multi-party system might be better here, but an electorate which wouldn't vote for Darth Vader (R) would also help. Not that strange when you consider Biden explicitly said while campaigning Show nested quote + “If you hear people on the rope line saying, ‘I’m a Republican,’ I say, ‘Stay a Republican.’ Vote for me but stay a Republican, because we need a Republican Party.” So even if Republicans voted Biden, he wants them to keep electing Republicans because he needs them. Meanwhile the Republicans are led in the Senate by a guy who said: Wonder what he needs them for? Shockingly some people think a democracy needs more then 1 party. I know radical idea.
Yes, the US needs a sane Republican party. Sadly it currently doesn't have one.
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Republicans are not a necessity in the US, what makes you think Republicans are a fundamental requirement to American politics as opposed to any other party that opposes the Democrats?
The US may trend hard to two parties, but there is absolutely no reason either of the two parties HAS to be Republican.
Democrats should focus on crushing the Republicans at every opportunity, not standing up for them while they work tooth and nail to tear down civil rights, women’s rights, electoral rights, and the foundation of US democracy because “we need a strong Republican Party.”
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Ofcourse it doesn't need to be the Republican party. But that is what you have and that is very unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
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On September 25 2021 18:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 18:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 25 2021 17:34 Simberto wrote:On September 25 2021 06:28 JimmiC wrote:On September 25 2021 05:06 brian wrote:
i think there are probably still some conservatives that aren’t trump supporters, so i think it’s some small service to call out trump supporters in that context than republicans generally. unfortunately in my family those don’t exist. but i have to imagine?
but i don’t disagree with your point otherwise. I think you are right, and I think that if they are politically aware they are trying to figure out what to do now that the Republican party is not a conservative party any more. I think there is also a group of Republicans that are not that politically aware and just assume that what the Rep party does and says is "conservative". It is a very strange time when there are only two parties in such a rich, powerful and large country and one has decided that reality is just not that important, let alone political ideologies like conservatism. Yeah, that is the strange thing. And even stranger is that that party is still competitive. This makes the whole situation basically a one party setup for sane people, which sucks, because not having any choice when voting isn't a good thing for democracy, and doesn't lead to the people in power doing what is good for the people voting for them, either. But the fact of the matter is that nearly half of the country is still voting for a party which is simply insane and evil. A multi-party system might be better here, but an electorate which wouldn't vote for Darth Vader (R) would also help. Not that strange when you consider Biden explicitly said while campaigning “If you hear people on the rope line saying, ‘I’m a Republican,’ I say, ‘Stay a Republican.’ Vote for me but stay a Republican, because we need a Republican Party.” So even if Republicans voted Biden, he wants them to keep electing Republicans because he needs them. Meanwhile the Republicans are led in the Senate by a guy who said: "One-hundred percent of our focus is on stopping this new administration," Wonder what he needs them for? Shockingly some people think a democracy needs more then 1 party. I know radical idea. Yes, the US needs a sane Republican party. Sadly it currently doesn't have one.
The existence of one mediocre party and one batshit insane one is, IMO, substantially worse than just having 1 mediocre one.
In all but one of the provinces in my country, there's effectively one party. It has opponents, but they have little power beyond ensuring the big one doesn't get to totally drop the ball. I do not feel the situation would be improved by having a bloc of fascists running around beating them every second election, even if it would arguably be "more democratic" in some really dumb sense of the word.
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Northern Ireland26967 Posts
On September 25 2021 11:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 10:10 WombaT wrote:
There’s a form of pure grievance, identity politics all over Trump’s base that isn’t particularly tethered to well, much. Seems less about power or doing much with that power but to be seen to be part of fighting the good fight.
The idea that this isn't exerting power is misguided. Grievance politics exists because people see themselves losing, but cannot see a path to further their power. Your blue collar worker who is losing out to globalization doesn't have anyone in power looking out for his or her interests. Voting democrat isn't going to revitalize the ghost towns. You'll say that they'll be better off with social programs, but they don't want to be the bottom caste. They'll take government handouts while complaining about the lazy, but they want their place in the hierarchy restored. The good fight you're talking about is the thin blue line where the police force brutalizes minorities and maintain the hierarchy of whites being superior.
Well you’re correct, I should probably phrase things more clearly in the future.
It’s is certainly a form of exerting power, but it’s a rather performative dance from those channelling theses forces into power. It’s less about actually fixing these grievances, more about giving a voice to that disenchantment.
I suppose that’s the luxury of modern right populism, fight the ‘culture war’, shit a bit on the most vulnerable in society and do fuck all tangible on your big rhetorical keystone issues.
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On September 25 2021 19:56 Gorsameth wrote:
Ofcourse it doesn't need to be the Republican party. But that is what you have and that is very unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
Assuming that the United States will forever have a two-party system, I wish that those two parties would be our current Democratic moderates (on the "right") and our current progressive wing* (on the "left"). I'd love to see American politics where the main disagreement was over steady, gradual progress vs. quicker, more drastic progress, where we could talk about which topics require slower implementation ("this is a more realistic/practical/careful approach", etc.) and which topics need immediate overhauls ("we simply can't wait around for generations to fix this dire issue", etc.). I wish we didn't have to worry about half the country wanting to move backwards.
*I can't actually fathom anything to the left of Sanders/AOC ever existing in America, so mentally I can only dream as far as our current left-most politicians lol.
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On September 25 2021 19:56 Gorsameth wrote:
Ofcourse it doesn't need to be the Republican party. But that is what you have and that is very unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
If we don’t need the Republican Party then Democrats should focus on dominating them so hard that Republicans are forced to under go a polarity shift, or die out making room for a new party.
Seeing elected leaders say we need a strong Republican Party in an age where the Republicans incite armed insurrection is absurd and insane to me. We need to fight them like we intend for them to die out.
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On September 25 2021 20:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 11:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 25 2021 10:10 WombaT wrote:
There’s a form of pure grievance, identity politics all over Trump’s base that isn’t particularly tethered to well, much. Seems less about power or doing much with that power but to be seen to be part of fighting the good fight.
The idea that this isn't exerting power is misguided. Grievance politics exists because people see themselves losing, but cannot see a path to further their power. Your blue collar worker who is losing out to globalization doesn't have anyone in power looking out for his or her interests. Voting democrat isn't going to revitalize the ghost towns. You'll say that they'll be better off with social programs, but they don't want to be the bottom caste. They'll take government handouts while complaining about the lazy, but they want their place in the hierarchy restored. The good fight you're talking about is the thin blue line where the police force brutalizes minorities and maintain the hierarchy of whites being superior. Well you’re correct, I should probably phrase things more clearly in the future. It’s is certainly a form of exerting power, but it’s a rather performative dance from those channelling theses forces into power. It’s less about actually fixing these grievances, more about giving a voice to that disenchantment. I suppose that’s the luxury of modern right populism, fight the ‘culture war’, shit a bit on the most vulnerable in society and do fuck all tangible on your big rhetorical keystone issues.
The problem is you think the keystone issues are abortion and gun rights instead of maintaining the hierarchy. The former are the performative dance you're talking about to maintain the latter, not the other way around.
On September 25 2021 14:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 09:49 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 25 2021 09:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 25 2021 05:37 Zambrah wrote:
Democrats regularly infight amongst themselves though, Republicans don't, to a comparable degree, fight against Trump. I don't think Democrats (at least the Clinton/Biden portions) ever would have rallied around Sanders like Republicans did around Trump. But do you think that misalignment is a matter of principle as in they would give up power to not have Sanders succeed or merely the reality that Sanders represents a minority position and they don't need to? The Republicans falling in line behind Trump is a case of falling in line to chase power. When democrats need to they will as well no doubt. I think there are some of both but when pressed many would rather collaborate on "center"-right policy with Republicans that don't like Trump than lose policy fights or political power to the "Bernie wing". Biden pretty much ran on that and they picked him.
Doesn't it make sense for the right flank of the democrats to join with more moderate Republicans in a unification of Neoliberalism though? The idea that every single person in the democrat party must push left for power doesn't seem reasonable.
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Biden won. Crucial detail. So long as we have an electoral college rather than democracy, it will always make sense to be moderate because of the awful Midwest.
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Northern Ireland26967 Posts
On September 25 2021 23:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 20:47 WombaT wrote:On September 25 2021 11:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 25 2021 10:10 WombaT wrote:
There’s a form of pure grievance, identity politics all over Trump’s base that isn’t particularly tethered to well, much. Seems less about power or doing much with that power but to be seen to be part of fighting the good fight.
The idea that this isn't exerting power is misguided. Grievance politics exists because people see themselves losing, but cannot see a path to further their power. Your blue collar worker who is losing out to globalization doesn't have anyone in power looking out for his or her interests. Voting democrat isn't going to revitalize the ghost towns. You'll say that they'll be better off with social programs, but they don't want to be the bottom caste. They'll take government handouts while complaining about the lazy, but they want their place in the hierarchy restored. The good fight you're talking about is the thin blue line where the police force brutalizes minorities and maintain the hierarchy of whites being superior. Well you’re correct, I should probably phrase things more clearly in the future. It’s is certainly a form of exerting power, but it’s a rather performative dance from those channelling theses forces into power. It’s less about actually fixing these grievances, more about giving a voice to that disenchantment. I suppose that’s the luxury of modern right populism, fight the ‘culture war’, shit a bit on the most vulnerable in society and do fuck all tangible on your big rhetorical keystone issues. The problem is you think the keystone issues are abortion and gun rights instead of maintaining the hierarchy. The former are the performative dance you're talking about to maintain the latter, not the other way around. Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 14:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 25 2021 09:49 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 25 2021 09:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 25 2021 05:37 Zambrah wrote:
Democrats regularly infight amongst themselves though, Republicans don't, to a comparable degree, fight against Trump. I don't think Democrats (at least the Clinton/Biden portions) ever would have rallied around Sanders like Republicans did around Trump. But do you think that misalignment is a matter of principle as in they would give up power to not have Sanders succeed or merely the reality that Sanders represents a minority position and they don't need to? The Republicans falling in line behind Trump is a case of falling in line to chase power. When democrats need to they will as well no doubt. I think there are some of both but when pressed many would rather collaborate on "center"-right policy with Republicans that don't like Trump than lose policy fights or political power to the "Bernie wing". Biden pretty much ran on that and they picked him. Doesn't it make sense for the right flank of the democrats to join with more moderate Republicans in a unification of Neoliberalism though? The idea that every single person in the democrat party must push left for power doesn't seem reasonable.
Actually not in this case, I was referring more to the grander ambitions of Trumpism in particular. Draining the swamp, America first, taking down the elites, revitalising the ‘real’ America in the rust belts etc etc.
On abortion, gun rights and those issues, while the net effect is a maintainence of hierarchy, and very possibly the intent, Republicans do actually do tangible, real-world things in these domains.
Things are increasingly couched in people’s sense of identity so much that merely talking the talk without really doing anything subsequently seems enough to engender an almost slavish loyalty.
I mean say what you want about historical dictators from across the spectrum, they did, often horrifically at least follow through with their rhetoric.
But hey, it’s a complex thing to unpack, been years trying to get my head around it and I’m certainly not going to manage it in this badly-worded post.
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On September 26 2021 01:29 Mohdoo wrote:
Biden won. Crucial detail. So long as we have an electoral college rather than democracy, it will always make sense to be moderate because of the awful Midwest.
Maybe in a fair world, Republicans are proving it actually pays to be ruthless, ideology be damned. Don’t need to be the most popular when you can game the system to win anyways.
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United States44046 Posts
On September 25 2021 18:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 17:34 Simberto wrote:On September 25 2021 06:28 JimmiC wrote:On September 25 2021 05:06 brian wrote:
i think there are probably still some conservatives that aren’t trump supporters, so i think it’s some small service to call out trump supporters in that context than republicans generally. unfortunately in my family those don’t exist. but i have to imagine?
but i don’t disagree with your point otherwise. I think you are right, and I think that if they are politically aware they are trying to figure out what to do now that the Republican party is not a conservative party any more. I think there is also a group of Republicans that are not that politically aware and just assume that what the Rep party does and says is "conservative". It is a very strange time when there are only two parties in such a rich, powerful and large country and one has decided that reality is just not that important, let alone political ideologies like conservatism. Yeah, that is the strange thing. And even stranger is that that party is still competitive. This makes the whole situation basically a one party setup for sane people, which sucks, because not having any choice when voting isn't a good thing for democracy, and doesn't lead to the people in power doing what is good for the people voting for them, either. But the fact of the matter is that nearly half of the country is still voting for a party which is simply insane and evil. A multi-party system might be better here, but an electorate which wouldn't vote for Darth Vader (R) would also help. Not that strange when you consider Biden explicitly said while campaigning Show nested quote + “If you hear people on the rope line saying, ‘I’m a Republican,’ I say, ‘Stay a Republican.’ Vote for me but stay a Republican, because we need a Republican Party.” So even if Republicans voted Biden, he wants them to keep electing Republicans because he needs them. Meanwhile the Republicans are led in the Senate by a guy who said: Wonder what he needs them for?
I mean it’s clear from context that he’s talking about pandering to voters rather than accidentally letting slip his secret beliefs. He’s saying don’t challenge the beliefs of hostile potential voters. If someone says that they subscribe to conservative beliefs then don’t call them a piece of shit and tell them to kill themselves, tell them that’s great and that their beliefs are valid and important and that also they should vote for you. He specified the context and it wasn’t a leak from a secret conspiracy strategy planning session.
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On September 26 2021 01:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2021 23:33 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 25 2021 20:47 WombaT wrote:On September 25 2021 11:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 25 2021 10:10 WombaT wrote:
There’s a form of pure grievance, identity politics all over Trump’s base that isn’t particularly tethered to well, much. Seems less about power or doing much with that power but to be seen to be part of fighting the good fight.
The idea that this isn't exerting power is misguided. Grievance politics exists because people see themselves losing, but cannot see a path to further their power. Your blue collar worker who is losing out to globalization doesn't have anyone in power looking out for his or her interests. Voting democrat isn't going to revitalize the ghost towns. You'll say that they'll be better off with social programs, but they don't want to be the bottom caste. They'll take government handouts while complaining about the lazy, but they want their place in the hierarchy restored. The good fight you're talking about is the thin blue line where the police force brutalizes minorities and maintain the hierarchy of whites being superior. Well you’re correct, I should probably phrase things more clearly in the future. It’s is certainly a form of exerting power, but it’s a rather performative dance from those channelling theses forces into power. It’s less about actually fixing these grievances, more about giving a voice to that disenchantment. I suppose that’s the luxury of modern right populism, fight the ‘culture war’, shit a bit on the most vulnerable in society and do fuck all tangible on your big rhetorical keystone issues. The problem is you think the keystone issues are abortion and gun rights instead of maintaining the hierarchy. The former are the performative dance you're talking about to maintain the latter, not the other way around. On September 25 2021 14:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 25 2021 09:49 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 25 2021 09:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 25 2021 05:37 Zambrah wrote:
Democrats regularly infight amongst themselves though, Republicans don't, to a comparable degree, fight against Trump. I don't think Democrats (at least the Clinton/Biden portions) ever would have rallied around Sanders like Republicans did around Trump. But do you think that misalignment is a matter of principle as in they would give up power to not have Sanders succeed or merely the reality that Sanders represents a minority position and they don't need to? The Republicans falling in line behind Trump is a case of falling in line to chase power. When democrats need to they will as well no doubt. I think there are some of both but when pressed many would rather collaborate on "center"-right policy with Republicans that don't like Trump than lose policy fights or political power to the "Bernie wing". Biden pretty much ran on that and they picked him. Doesn't it make sense for the right flank of the democrats to join with more moderate Republicans in a unification of Neoliberalism though? The idea that every single person in the democrat party must push left for power doesn't seem reasonable. Actually not in this case, I was referring more to the grander ambitions of Trumpism in particular. Draining the swamp, America first, taking down the elites, revitalising the ‘real’ America in the rust belts etc etc. On abortion, gun rights and those issues, while the net effect is a maintainence of hierarchy, and very possibly the intent, Republicans do actually do tangible, real-world things in these domains. Things are increasingly couched in people’s sense of identity so much that merely talking the talk without really doing anything subsequently seems enough to engender an almost slavish loyalty. I mean say what you want about historical dictators from across the spectrum, they did, often horrifically at least follow through with their rhetoric. But hey, it’s a complex thing to unpack, been years trying to get my head around it and I’m certainly not going to manage it in this badly-worded post.
You're ignoring the rise of Trump as a birther. It is reactionary to the ascension of a Obama beyond the caste designated by his race. What does draining the swamp or taking down the elites mean in terms of policy? It is intentionally vague as a feature.
To me draining the swamp would mean something against corruption, but making money for himself is Trump's primary guiding pillar.
Taking down the elite is more interesting. Trump isn't the first entertainer to ascend to the presidency as a Republican. He isn't the desired vessel of the neoliberal world order, but he isn't going to destroy it as long as he can take his cut. You see that now with Trump targeting McConnnel after he has descended from power. The far right have no principles about America first. It's Trump first and anything else second.
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On September 26 2021 01:55 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2021 01:29 Mohdoo wrote:
Biden won. Crucial detail. So long as we have an electoral college rather than democracy, it will always make sense to be moderate because of the awful Midwest. Maybe in a fair world, Republicans are proving it actually pays to be ruthless, ideology be damned. Don’t need to be the most popular when you can game the system to win anyways.
Yes, I agree. And since people on the left are unwilling to go against their fragile wittle feeliez regarding political underhandedness, our only option is to appeal to the Midwest until we move towards democracy. So long as our culture is full of bullshit around cornfields having a voice in elections, we will have this problem. Until we use democracy in our presidential elections, this is the only way.
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I dont think those Midwestern voters that are voting for Republicans are ever going to vote Democrat and continuing to pursue them as if they are only drags America further and further to the right imo
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On September 26 2021 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
I dont think those Midwestern voters that are voting for Republicans are ever going to vote Democrat and continuing to pursue them as if they are only drags America further and further to the right imo
Biden won WI, MN, MI. That's the ticket. As long as democrats can keep those states on lock, they have very good odds at holding the presidency. The senate will always be an anti-democracy nightmare though.
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On September 26 2021 03:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2021 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
I dont think those Midwestern voters that are voting for Republicans are ever going to vote Democrat and continuing to pursue them as if they are only drags America further and further to the right imo Biden won WI, MN, MI. That's the ticket. As long as democrats can keep those states on lock, they have very good odds at holding the presidency. The senate will always be an anti-democracy nightmare though.
I think we have to contextualize Bidens win as Vs. Trump, that was a super unique election that we aren't likely to see repeated in my opinion, I don't think it'll be super useful to draw conclusions from unless we literally see Trump try and run again.
How a Trump-Republican that isn't Trump himself does is going to be very telling for the future, if they lose like Trump did I think the party is going to have some tough decisions to make when it comes to Trumpism, but if the Trump-Republican manages to make normal Republicans and Trump Republicans comfortable voting for them then I think there needs to be a new political strategy that doesn't revolve around trying to peel off Republicans/Moderates.
I know Im a broken record, but getting the disenfranchised on board to vote would be so much stronger long term imo. Build a voting bloc that has the kind of Trump-voter loyalty, make sure you actually deliver things to bring back, and aggressively move to expand enfranchisement, increase that voter bloc and just seal out Republicans who have a comparatively very stagnant base of voters.
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On September 26 2021 03:36 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2021 03:26 Mohdoo wrote:On September 26 2021 03:21 Zambrah wrote:
I dont think those Midwestern voters that are voting for Republicans are ever going to vote Democrat and continuing to pursue them as if they are only drags America further and further to the right imo Biden won WI, MN, MI. That's the ticket. As long as democrats can keep those states on lock, they have very good odds at holding the presidency. The senate will always be an anti-democracy nightmare though. I think we have to contextualize Bidens win as Vs. Trump, that was a super unique election that we aren't likely to see repeated in my opinion, I don't think it'll be super useful to draw conclusions from unless we literally see Trump try and run again. How a Trump-Republican that isn't Trump himself does is going to be very telling for the future, if they lose like Trump did I think the party is going to have some tough decisions to make when it comes to Trumpism, but if the Trump-Republican manages to make normal Republicans and Trump Republicans comfortable voting for them then I think there needs to be a new political strategy that doesn't revolve around trying to peel off Republicans/Moderates. I know Im a broken record, but getting the disenfranchised on board to vote would be so much stronger long term imo. Build a voting bloc that has the kind of Trump-voter loyalty, make sure you actually deliver things to bring back, and aggressively move to expand enfranchisement, increase that voter bloc and just seal out Republicans who have a comparatively very stagnant base of voters.
Obama won those states in 2008 and 2012. Why do you think Biden's win there was unique to Trump?
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EPT
