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On April 23 2021 21:43 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 21:14 BlackJack wrote:On April 23 2021 20:55 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2021 20:37 BlackJack wrote:On April 23 2021 20:27 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2021 19:59 BlackJack wrote:
Goodness. Once again, you really think the news wouldn't run a story of a black person getting shot or even just shot at by police for stealing a TV or other property? Even if the news wouldn't portray it you really think it wouldn't just go viral organically from activist groups like BLM on twitter? I really am starting to feel like I am being trolled. The news runs those stories all the time, they can't run all of them because it happens too fuckin' much. Wasn't your argument that news media doesn't have the time or interest to talk about these cases and now you've pivoted to there are so many that they can't run all of them? if there are so many, post them then. I have no idea why you are struggling to post these things that happen very frequently according to Kwark, twice a day according to EnDeR, and so often that they can't run all of them according to you. I'm going to sleep now. This is getting silly. This has been silly for a long time. Lemme list some major cases of police killings and the related news generated George Floyd, and the entire fuckin Chauvin trial, our current subject, Ma'Khia Bryant, Daunte Wright, Adam Toledo, were some of the recent famous cases in fucking April. These things happen with such intense regularity that you cant fucking cover everything. The news doesnt EXCLUSIVELY cover police shootings and killings either, dont forget mass shootings, and general news. Cops shoots and kill like 3 people a day in this country, heres WaPo's thing about it, https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/let me write these names out so you can possibly grasp the scope of how often this bullshit happens and how "well the news doesnt report on literally every single case so its obviously made up" is one of the dumbassedest takes I can fathom. Ma'Khia Bryant Unidentified White Person, Burnesville Minn. Larry Jenkins Unidentified Person, Alameda, Cali. Robert Douglas Delgado Alex Garcia Sammie Barbosa Unidentified Person, San Antonio, Tex. Lindani Myeni Marcelo Garcia Jacob Wood Peyton Ham Anthony Thompson Pier Alexander Shelton Daunte Wright Unidentified Person, San Marcos, Tex. Unidentified Person, Rockford, Ill. Joshua Mitchell Unidentified Person, San Fernando, Cali. DeShund Tanner Douglas C. Barton Unidentified Person, Whitewater, Cali. Unidentified Person, Tallahassee, Flo. James Alexander Devin Wyteagle Kuykendall Unidentified Person, Miami, Flo. Tyler R. Green Roy K. Jackel Iremamber Sykap Silas Lambert Gabriel Casso Jeffrey W. Appelt Jose Arenas Juan Carlos Estrada Samuel Yeager Noah Green Unidentified Person, Long Beach, Cali. Natzeryt Viertel Unidentified Person, Hurdle Mills, NC Unidentified Person, Corona, Cali. Unidentified Person, Fremont, Cali. DeShawn Tatum James Iler Steven Ross Glass Thats April. Thats exclusively FATAL shootings, since we don't keep records on non-fatal shootings, so this is the fucking bare assed minimum FLOOR for where police shootings start at, and again this is JUST APRIL. Not enough time in the fucking day to run stories on all of the killings let alone shootings in this country. Great. You have a list of every single person police killed for the month of April. Which ones were killed for stealing? 2009-2012 data says about 8-10.5% are shot dead due to a non violent property crime. Depending on the level of detail of the data used, as far as I can tell Sources are Table 3 and 8, for your comfort. What would be an acceptable % for you to accept that non violent property crime leads to being shot by police frequently? Or does it need to be in a timely succession that fits your impresion of frequently?
yea but were they STEALING though, and can I see the TV?
ender get real. show me the tv or gtfo
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Had some time to kill and googled all of them. A depressing proportion of these are not white, and the number of routine traffic stop killings is off the charts, I didn't realise it was this bad!!
Ma'Khia Bryant - home disturbance
Larry Jenkins - unclear, but home disturbance?
Robert Douglas Delgado - unclear, but possession of a weapon?
Marcelo Garcia - mental health crisis
Jacob Wood - home disturbance
Peyton Ham - 911 call for looking suspicious (you cannot make this shit up)
Tyler R. Green - domestic call
Silas Lambert - unclear but seems like a domestic call
Gabriel Casso - unclear but seems to have gotten in the cross-fire of police shooting other suspects.
Samuel Yeager - 911 'man with a gun' call
Natzeryt Viertel - domestic call
James Iler - well-being check
Steven Ross Glass - throwing rocks at somebody's door.
Alex Garcia - traffic stop
Sammie Barbosa - traffic stop
Pier Alexander Shelton - traffic violation
Daunte Wright - traffic stop
James Alexander - traffic stop
Lindani Myeni - burglary
DeShund Tanner - carjacking
Devin Wyteagle Kuykendall - car theft
Roy K. Jackel - car theft
Iremamber Sykap - car theft
DeShawn Tatum - car theft
Jeffrey W. Appelt - trespassing in a hotel
Anthony Thompson - domestic abuse
Joshua Mitchell - sexual abuse
Douglas C. Barton - threatening a judge [one of the few white guys in this list, unsurprisingly considering the crime]
Jose Arenas - armed robbery
Juan Carlos Estrada - kidnapping and assault
Noah Green - rammed a car into police officers (jesus, this is nuts)
It does look like things have changed since the 80's, a minority of these are related to property crime, but it does seem that police tend to kill people in cars or around cars a lot, especially if they're black.
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Those suggesting Police not carry firearms and comparing it to a european country are seriously underestimating how many guns are in circulation in the US. Id be all for them not carrying if you could remove guns from the US population but that will never happen
Additionay, stating that anytime an officer kills someone because LOL the person did not get a trial is incredibly Nieve. The fact of the matter is police need guns with a heavily armed populace and anytime guns are discharged theres a chance of death. These are just realities and anything less is theorycrafting.
I saw a post a while back mentioning some Americans thinking its OK to shoot a person if they tresspass on your property. This is 100% false and that person would go to jail for murder. Im not sure where these assumptions come from. Even in a breaking and entering case you can be charged for murder.
This police shooting is a horrible hill to die on. Do not try to stab someone in front of a police officer and youll be fine. Especially when you are being the aggressor and not "trying to defend yourself" We cannot keep trying to pass the buck onto public service workers in this country. This police issue is cousins to the attacks on public schools and school teachers by parents, administrators, government. Its always the public service persons fault. Its irritating.
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On April 23 2021 22:23 Sadist wrote:
Those suggesting Police not carry firearms and comparing it to a european country are seriously underestimating how many guns are in circulation in the US. Id be all for them not carrying if you could remove guns from the US population but that will never happen
i do think this is the one excellent point that could be brought up in defense of police, and my answer is get rid of the guns. it’s happened before in other countries, it being impossible is just more american exceptionalism.
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On April 23 2021 21:53 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 21:43 Artisreal wrote:On April 23 2021 21:14 BlackJack wrote:On April 23 2021 20:55 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2021 20:37 BlackJack wrote:On April 23 2021 20:27 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2021 19:59 BlackJack wrote:
Goodness. Once again, you really think the news wouldn't run a story of a black person getting shot or even just shot at by police for stealing a TV or other property? Even if the news wouldn't portray it you really think it wouldn't just go viral organically from activist groups like BLM on twitter? I really am starting to feel like I am being trolled. The news runs those stories all the time, they can't run all of them because it happens too fuckin' much. Wasn't your argument that news media doesn't have the time or interest to talk about these cases and now you've pivoted to there are so many that they can't run all of them? if there are so many, post them then. I have no idea why you are struggling to post these things that happen very frequently according to Kwark, twice a day according to EnDeR, and so often that they can't run all of them according to you. I'm going to sleep now. This is getting silly. This has been silly for a long time. Lemme list some major cases of police killings and the related news generated George Floyd, and the entire fuckin Chauvin trial, our current subject, Ma'Khia Bryant, Daunte Wright, Adam Toledo, were some of the recent famous cases in fucking April. These things happen with such intense regularity that you cant fucking cover everything. The news doesnt EXCLUSIVELY cover police shootings and killings either, dont forget mass shootings, and general news. Cops shoots and kill like 3 people a day in this country, heres WaPo's thing about it, https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/let me write these names out so you can possibly grasp the scope of how often this bullshit happens and how "well the news doesnt report on literally every single case so its obviously made up" is one of the dumbassedest takes I can fathom. Ma'Khia Bryant Unidentified White Person, Burnesville Minn. Larry Jenkins Unidentified Person, Alameda, Cali. Robert Douglas Delgado Alex Garcia Sammie Barbosa Unidentified Person, San Antonio, Tex. Lindani Myeni Marcelo Garcia Jacob Wood Peyton Ham Anthony Thompson Pier Alexander Shelton Daunte Wright Unidentified Person, San Marcos, Tex. Unidentified Person, Rockford, Ill. Joshua Mitchell Unidentified Person, San Fernando, Cali. DeShund Tanner Douglas C. Barton Unidentified Person, Whitewater, Cali. Unidentified Person, Tallahassee, Flo. James Alexander Devin Wyteagle Kuykendall Unidentified Person, Miami, Flo. Tyler R. Green Roy K. Jackel Iremamber Sykap Silas Lambert Gabriel Casso Jeffrey W. Appelt Jose Arenas Juan Carlos Estrada Samuel Yeager Noah Green Unidentified Person, Long Beach, Cali. Natzeryt Viertel Unidentified Person, Hurdle Mills, NC Unidentified Person, Corona, Cali. Unidentified Person, Fremont, Cali. DeShawn Tatum James Iler Steven Ross Glass Thats April. Thats exclusively FATAL shootings, since we don't keep records on non-fatal shootings, so this is the fucking bare assed minimum FLOOR for where police shootings start at, and again this is JUST APRIL. Not enough time in the fucking day to run stories on all of the killings let alone shootings in this country. Great. You have a list of every single person police killed for the month of April. Which ones were killed for stealing? 2009-2012 data says about 8-10.5% are shot dead due to a non violent property crime. Depending on the level of detail of the data used, as far as I can tell Sources are Table 3 and 8, for your comfort. What would be an acceptable % for you to accept that non violent property crime leads to being shot by police frequently? Or does it need to be in a timely succession that fits your impresion of frequently? yea but were they STEALING though, and can I see the TV? ender get real. show me the tv or gtfo
:D
On a more sserious note, I'm still leaning into giving the benefit of the doubt here as to this being more than a diversion tactic, semantics and an attempt at a gatcha.
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On April 23 2021 22:26 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 22:23 Sadist wrote:
Those suggesting Police not carry firearms and comparing it to a european country are seriously underestimating how many guns are in circulation in the US. Id be all for them not carrying if you could remove guns from the US population but that will never happen
i do think this is the one excellent point that could be brought up in defense of police, and my answer is get rid of the guns. it’s happened before in other countries, it being impossible is just more american exceptionalism.
Its not american exceptionalism. Theres a host of things making this difficult that youd have to overcome.
1. Politicization of 2A
2. 2A
3. Gun industry/economic impact (gun dealers, gun ranges, shows, manufacturers, etc
4. Hunting industry
5. Crime & bad areas (People want to be able to protect themselves)
6. Huge population/landmass with Individual states
Thats just to name a few. If we had a dictator for a day we could ban them and tbh an Enlightened Despot is probably the best form of government until it isnt. But our form of representative democracy is not going to allow guns to be banned in the US.
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On April 23 2021 22:23 Sadist wrote:
... Do not try to stab someone in front of a police officer and youll be fine. ...
A couple of the people I just googled got killed for carrying a gun on their person even if they didn't draw it and even if it was legal in their state, so I'd be wary of making statements like the above.
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On April 23 2021 22:46 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 22:23 Sadist wrote:
... Do not try to stab someone in front of a police officer and youll be fine. ... A couple of the people I just googled got killed for carrying a gun on their person even if they didn't draw it and even if it was legal in their state, so I'd be wary of making statements like the above.
Mistakes happen. Charge the officer if necessary and move on. You can find an example of anything if you look for it hard enough.
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On April 23 2021 23:04 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 22:46 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 23 2021 22:23 Sadist wrote:
... Do not try to stab someone in front of a police officer and youll be fine. ... A couple of the people I just googled got killed for carrying a gun on their person even if they didn't draw it and even if it was legal in their state, so I'd be wary of making statements like the above. Mistakes happen. Charge the officer if necessary and move on. You can find an example of anything if you look for it hard enough.
I wasn't looking particularly hard, that was just several examples this month.
What frequency would we have to hit for it to become concerning in your opinion?
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On April 23 2021 22:46 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 22:23 Sadist wrote:
... Do not try to stab someone in front of a police officer and youll be fine. ... A couple of the people I just googled got killed for carrying a gun on their person even if they didn't draw it and even if it was legal in their state, so I'd be wary of making statements like the above. Kwark has brought it up several times before, the contradiction that US citizens are allowed to own and carry around guns. But the police also get to shoot you for having said gun.
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What I feel is the issue
I have been robbed, i have been at the other end of a Knife (which makes me an outlier for a Swiss person, but all the events happened in France when i was alone and probably at the wrong corner). The gangsters that wanted to rob me (by pure physical force) and the guy with the knife were seemingly less willing to really hurt me than the US cops seem to be to pull the trigger.
Think about that. People that are totally fine with hitting you in the face and then "asking" for money or pull a knife on you are less likely to do me serious harm than a cop that feels threatened.
I guess this is mainly a cultural thing, a life seems to be plainly less worth in the US than in Europe and even less in Central and South America. Bar brawls or people just hitting each other seem also way less common around here, they happen but from what i could gather in Germany, France and Switzerland, where i partied often and hard, they just tend to not be a "normal" thing outside of some very specific circles that plain search fights (and normally don't mix with the average weekend crowd). Most of my friends, i'm now 37, have never been in a fight. During my stay in France I was the only guy that got robbed (and it hit me twice, nearly trice).
Stuff that happened to me:
I once got knocked out and robbed but no hits when i was down, all i remember is hearing a group pacing behind me, 2-3 seconds later a hit and a hand in my left pocket while i went down). Another time I could fight back and somehow "won" (but took a scar from the encounter, the guy hit me with some ring i guess but his 2 mates weren't really into it or i'm some kind of berserker and one of them likely is missing some teeth) and from the guy with the knife i did just run and i'm really not fast (try this against a gun).
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On April 23 2021 23:23 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 22:34 Sadist wrote:On April 23 2021 22:26 brian wrote:On April 23 2021 22:23 Sadist wrote:
Those suggesting Police not carry firearms and comparing it to a european country are seriously underestimating how many guns are in circulation in the US. Id be all for them not carrying if you could remove guns from the US population but that will never happen
i do think this is the one excellent point that could be brought up in defense of police, and my answer is get rid of the guns. it’s happened before in other countries, it being impossible is just more american exceptionalism. Its not american exceptionalism. Theres a host of things making this difficult that youd have to overcome. 1. Politicization of 2A 2. 2A 3. Gun industry/economic impact (gun dealers, gun ranges, shows, manufacturers, etc 4. Hunting industry 5. Crime & bad areas (People want to be able to protect themselves) 6. Huge population/landmass with Individual states Thats just to name a few. If we had a dictator for a day we could ban them and tbh an Enlightened Despot is probably the best form of government until it isnt. But our form of representative democracy is not going to allow guns to be banned in the US. 1 is for sure. 2. The actual one says, in a well regulated militia, which would be the reserves now a days. If reservists had weapons and were able to be called upon when needed. It would actually make some sense, which is likely why it was worded as such even back then. Remember the first uses of this were to quell revolutions against Washington not the opposite, the opposite is your point 1. 3. This is a very minor concern (speaking overall and not of the individuals) % wise it is small, and that money and jobs would just flow into others. Not to mention all the heathcare savings, police, legal, prison savings for the government which would be reinvested else where in places without so much harm. 4. Would likely not be effected. Most hunting rifles are terrible for crime and rarely used in it. There would be lots of regulation but hunting would still happen. Also, most of the people I know that are under 40 are moving to bow hunting, and way prefer it. 5. This is the bad logic argument. Guns for protection are awful, there is a way greater chance of shooting ones self or family member, being shot by your own gun, then there is of fending off some attackers. Also, guns are what have helped to make that area so bad. 6. Others have huge land masses (like us!), it creates challenges no doubt. The whole state vs federal thing would certainly be a political issue but overcome able. Even look at Pot now, some states go firsts, others see the benefits and follow. Eventually the Feds will join when there is not enough to complain. Or in other cases the feds step in, there is lots of complaints, some states fight it but the change happens. (not without challenges of course). There is other democracies who have done it, it merely takes the populous and political will. It likely would have already happened if the US didn't have such bad campaign finance laws as the populous in high numbers would like way more regulation. It is going to be like a spectrum like most things, I would agree it is not going to move from now to a outright ban of all guns. But it can certainly start trending in that direction.
I can assure you that guns for protection is an actual thing in the US, and it’s not awful. I know two woman that carry and feel immensely more comfortable in their lives because of it.
Also, to bring down the amount of guns in circulation by a large margin will take decades of culture change and buyback proposals. It’s not easy. Other countries have done it, but America is not just another country. Small feel good regulations and laws aren’t cutting it, and they just further divide.
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On April 23 2021 06:29 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 06:16 dp wrote:On April 23 2021 05:42 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2021 05:27 dp wrote:On April 23 2021 05:01 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2021 04:44 dp wrote:On April 23 2021 01:28 JimmiC wrote:Why would you assume that Kwark was saying frequently as a percentage of arrests and not frequently in comparison to other places where he believes police to a better job? Again if you want to be the word police you can't be so willynilly yourself. You need to have the sense to not just read one sentence and treat it as if it was not part of a larger comment and more than that a conversation. Other countries have similar numbers of interactions and yet far less of these incidents that is simply factual. That it makes up a small % of total interactions is ridiculous because it should make up far fewer. So I need to guess the meaning of his words in relation to a point he was not making, has not specified and was not in discussion at the time, because otherwise I am being the word police? I have yet to see Kwark clarify anything in the way you are attributing his intention. He has not even clarified what he means exactly in the specific words he used. Is it in regards to initial reason for the police encounter? Or literal as in police show up and shoot robbers fleeing with TV's in the back. On April 23 2021 01:28 JimmiC wrote:The frequency is far to high and could be lowered, that is the point. And it is in every like country, the US is exceptionally bad. The standard should not be whether or not you are more or less likely to be shot and killed by the police or a criminal. You should have no fear of being killed by the police, because the amount of people killed by the police should actually be infinitesimal like it is in other countries, and the instances should be where it is clear that it was the only option, and if it was not only options there should be consequences. This is not in the realm of the same discussion. You understand that right? I can literally agree with everything you wrote and disagree with what Kwark said. It would be like if everyone was discussing the shooting of Jason Peterson in Canada and I chimed in "Very frequently the police in Canada use deadly force against a suspect who was attempting to deprive someone of property rather than kill anyone". You would obviously get my meaning and realize I mean in regards to other country's shootings by police rate, and frequent would be subjective in that way, and deprive property would mean any instance where someone is killed by police for any reason? And you would agree with me completely, no need for clarification, specifics, or relation to the topic at hand. So anyway, why are Canadian police so quick to shoot people in the back for stealing TV's all the time? Your last analogy/example whatever it is so wholly misses the mark, its impossible to discuss. Why? The harm done to society by extrajudicial police executions in Canada is greater than by stolen TVs. The police in Canada are constantly very frequently doing it. Pointing it out and discussing it seems reasonable. Well in that case the police call was about a man with a shotgun, holding someone hostage, who claimed he wanted to die by the police. And then the police waited until after the man fired his shotgun to shoot him. So given that this is one of the few examples where deadly force was very likely the police officers only choice was to fire, I'd just present the facts of the situation and likely few would disagree. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/cannon-plaza-police-shooting-1.5963568But I mean it gets back to the way you argue, when it is not going how you like, you distract. No no, remember I am not discussing that. I am talking about the very frequent times people are shot dead for depriving property in Canada by police. Like this one, or this one, or this one, or this. And don't get me started on the outright war on people suffering mental breakdowns Canadian cops do. It's also open season out there on indigenous people. Am i doing this right? To some of your more recent examples I'm not sure because you posted the initial stories which don't say what happened unlike the first one. But if it was the case that they were killed for property than I agree it is too frequent and we also need to do better. Not nearly as frequent as the US, but not infinitesimal either. It is sad that it becomes more frequent as more and more guns make there way across our border. Happy to have that discussion in the Canadian politics thread if you would like?
Sure. Lot of jurisdictions, not completely knowledgeable on how training and recruitment is performed in each. I would not continue to use the language of that post as it was suppose to hyperbolize the extent and specifics. But Canada does seem to get a pass for some of their police issues and could probably use a good amount of reflection on changing tactics like the US does.
On April 23 2021 06:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 06:16 dp wrote:On April 23 2021 05:42 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2021 05:27 dp wrote:On April 23 2021 05:01 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2021 04:44 dp wrote:On April 23 2021 01:28 JimmiC wrote:Why would you assume that Kwark was saying frequently as a percentage of arrests and not frequently in comparison to other places where he believes police to a better job? Again if you want to be the word police you can't be so willynilly yourself. You need to have the sense to not just read one sentence and treat it as if it was not part of a larger comment and more than that a conversation. Other countries have similar numbers of interactions and yet far less of these incidents that is simply factual. That it makes up a small % of total interactions is ridiculous because it should make up far fewer. So I need to guess the meaning of his words in relation to a point he was not making, has not specified and was not in discussion at the time, because otherwise I am being the word police? I have yet to see Kwark clarify anything in the way you are attributing his intention. He has not even clarified what he means exactly in the specific words he used. Is it in regards to initial reason for the police encounter? Or literal as in police show up and shoot robbers fleeing with TV's in the back. On April 23 2021 01:28 JimmiC wrote:The frequency is far to high and could be lowered, that is the point. And it is in every like country, the US is exceptionally bad. The standard should not be whether or not you are more or less likely to be shot and killed by the police or a criminal. You should have no fear of being killed by the police, because the amount of people killed by the police should actually be infinitesimal like it is in other countries, and the instances should be where it is clear that it was the only option, and if it was not only options there should be consequences. This is not in the realm of the same discussion. You understand that right? I can literally agree with everything you wrote and disagree with what Kwark said. It would be like if everyone was discussing the shooting of Jason Peterson in Canada and I chimed in "Very frequently the police in Canada use deadly force against a suspect who was attempting to deprive someone of property rather than kill anyone". You would obviously get my meaning and realize I mean in regards to other country's shootings by police rate, and frequent would be subjective in that way, and deprive property would mean any instance where someone is killed by police for any reason? And you would agree with me completely, no need for clarification, specifics, or relation to the topic at hand. So anyway, why are Canadian police so quick to shoot people in the back for stealing TV's all the time? Your last analogy/example whatever it is so wholly misses the mark, its impossible to discuss. Why? The harm done to society by extrajudicial police executions in Canada is greater than by stolen TVs. The police in Canada are constantly very frequently doing it. Pointing it out and discussing it seems reasonable. Well in that case the police call was about a man with a shotgun, holding someone hostage, who claimed he wanted to die by the police. And then the police waited until after the man fired his shotgun to shoot him. So given that this is one of the few examples where deadly force was very likely the police officers only choice was to fire, I'd just present the facts of the situation and likely few would disagree. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/cannon-plaza-police-shooting-1.5963568But I mean it gets back to the way you argue, when it is not going how you like, you distract. No no, remember I am not discussing that. I am talking about the very frequent times people are shot dead for depriving property in Canada by police. Like this one, or this one, or this one, or this. And don't get me started on the outright war on people suffering mental breakdowns Canadian cops do. It's also open season out there on indigenous people. Am i doing this right? no your not doing right in the slightest. It worked for Kwark because US cops are generally considered to be crap and they shoot way to many people so everyone just goes "yeah that checks out". Canada does not have that reputation. Its the same with why the shooting of the girl lead to so much discussion. Its not that this specific case was so horribly bad and unequivocally wrong, but because so many people die needlessly to cops its reasonably safe to start from the position that the cop was wrong and work from there. Reputation matters in how people perceive someone's actions.
No, numbers matter. Which is why I brought up Canada. It stands quite a bit above our European counterparts in regards to police killings. Less than the US, but by no means a beacon of police restraint. Nearly 3x more than France, 20x more than the UK.
On April 23 2021 06:59 EnDeR_ wrote:
So, for the sake of this argument, let's say that there were 3k shootings in a year and 1/6th of those happened to suspects commuting property crime, which leaves us with about 500 every year.
That's about twice a day. You could certainly describe that as "frequently".
I would argue that something that happens weekly (so one order of magnitude less frequently than what I assumed above) would still be described as frequently according to the dictionary definition so I'd say Kwark was justified in his use of the word frequently.
You do see my problem with counting shootings as a response to property crime, when the cause of the shooting is in no way related to the property crime right? It feels like whenever I try to address this, there is no confirmation that the point is actually getting across. Yes, the police are there originally for a non-violent crime. What actually caused the shooting that occurs should matter though. Unless the remedy is not enforcing the law moving forward.
We do need a change to both the justice system and police training. But as long as the public at large take police interactions from a ticketed situation into a knife/gun fight, these will continue albeit at a smaller rate.
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On April 23 2021 23:33 Velr wrote:
What I don't understand.
I have been robbed, i have been at the other end of a Knive (which makes me an outlier for a Swiss person, but all the events happened in France when i was alone and probably at the wrong corner). The gangsters that wanted to rob me (by pure physical force) and the guy with the knive were seemingly less willing to really hurt me than the US cops seem to be to pull the trigger.
Think about that. People that are totally fine with hitting you in the face and then "asking" for money or pull a knive on you are less likely to do me serious harm than a cop that feels threatened.
I guess this is mainly a cultural thing, a life seems to be plainly less worth in the US than in Europe and even less in Central and South America. Bar brawls or people just hitting each other seem also way less common around here, they happen but from what i could gather in germany, france and switzerland, were i partied often and hard, they just tend to not be a "normal" thing outside of some very specific circles that plain search fights (and normally don't mix with the average weekend crowd). Most of my friends, i'm now 37, have never been in a fight.
Stuff that happened to me:
I once got knocked out and robbed but no hits when i was down, all i remember is hearing a group pacing behind me, 2-3 seconds later a hit and a hand in my left pocket while i went down). Another time I could fight back and somehow "won" (but took a scar from the encounter, the guy hit me with some ring i guess but his 2 mates weren't really into it or i'm some kind of berserker and one of them likely is missing some teeth) and from the guy with the knife i did just run and i'm really not fast (try this against a gun).
Rob a tourist at knifepoint and the case goes on the bottom of the pile and no one really bothers to pursuit it.
Kill a tourist and the police will look into it and try to find you, and the punishment if caught is massively higher.
The cop is more willing to pull his gun then a criminal because he knows he will get away with it.
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On April 23 2021 23:41 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 23:23 JimmiC wrote:On April 23 2021 22:34 Sadist wrote:On April 23 2021 22:26 brian wrote:On April 23 2021 22:23 Sadist wrote:
Those suggesting Police not carry firearms and comparing it to a european country are seriously underestimating how many guns are in circulation in the US. Id be all for them not carrying if you could remove guns from the US population but that will never happen
i do think this is the one excellent point that could be brought up in defense of police, and my answer is get rid of the guns. it’s happened before in other countries, it being impossible is just more american exceptionalism. Its not american exceptionalism. Theres a host of things making this difficult that youd have to overcome. 1. Politicization of 2A 2. 2A 3. Gun industry/economic impact (gun dealers, gun ranges, shows, manufacturers, etc 4. Hunting industry 5. Crime & bad areas (People want to be able to protect themselves) 6. Huge population/landmass with Individual states Thats just to name a few. If we had a dictator for a day we could ban them and tbh an Enlightened Despot is probably the best form of government until it isnt. But our form of representative democracy is not going to allow guns to be banned in the US. 1 is for sure. 2. The actual one says, in a well regulated militia, which would be the reserves now a days. If reservists had weapons and were able to be called upon when needed. It would actually make some sense, which is likely why it was worded as such even back then. Remember the first uses of this were to quell revolutions against Washington not the opposite, the opposite is your point 1. 3. This is a very minor concern (speaking overall and not of the individuals) % wise it is small, and that money and jobs would just flow into others. Not to mention all the heathcare savings, police, legal, prison savings for the government which would be reinvested else where in places without so much harm. 4. Would likely not be effected. Most hunting rifles are terrible for crime and rarely used in it. There would be lots of regulation but hunting would still happen. Also, most of the people I know that are under 40 are moving to bow hunting, and way prefer it. 5. This is the bad logic argument. Guns for protection are awful, there is a way greater chance of shooting ones self or family member, being shot by your own gun, then there is of fending off some attackers. Also, guns are what have helped to make that area so bad. 6. Others have huge land masses (like us!), it creates challenges no doubt. The whole state vs federal thing would certainly be a political issue but overcome able. Even look at Pot now, some states go firsts, others see the benefits and follow. Eventually the Feds will join when there is not enough to complain. Or in other cases the feds step in, there is lots of complaints, some states fight it but the change happens. (not without challenges of course). There is other democracies who have done it, it merely takes the populous and political will. It likely would have already happened if the US didn't have such bad campaign finance laws as the populous in high numbers would like way more regulation. It is going to be like a spectrum like most things, I would agree it is not going to move from now to a outright ban of all guns. But it can certainly start trending in that direction. I can assure you that guns for protection is an actual thing in the US, and it’s not awful. I know two woman that carry and feel immensely more comfortable in their lives because of it. Also, to bring down the amount of guns in circulation by a large margin will take decades of culture change and buyback proposals. It’s not easy. Other countries have done it, but America is not just another country. Small feel good regulations and laws aren’t cutting it, and they just further divide.
I would state that the problem is that they do not feel safe without the gun.
Do you know why they feel the need for a gun?
This is not specific to the US though
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On April 23 2021 23:53 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2021 23:33 Velr wrote:
What I don't understand.
I have been robbed, i have been at the other end of a Knive (which makes me an outlier for a Swiss person, but all the events happened in France when i was alone and probably at the wrong corner). The gangsters that wanted to rob me (by pure physical force) and the guy with the knive were seemingly less willing to really hurt me than the US cops seem to be to pull the trigger.
Think about that. People that are totally fine with hitting you in the face and then "asking" for money or pull a knive on you are less likely to do me serious harm than a cop that feels threatened.
I guess this is mainly a cultural thing, a life seems to be plainly less worth in the US than in Europe and even less in Central and South America. Bar brawls or people just hitting each other seem also way less common around here, they happen but from what i could gather in germany, france and switzerland, were i partied often and hard, they just tend to not be a "normal" thing outside of some very specific circles that plain search fights (and normally don't mix with the average weekend crowd). Most of my friends, i'm now 37, have never been in a fight.
Stuff that happened to me:
I once got knocked out and robbed but no hits when i was down, all i remember is hearing a group pacing behind me, 2-3 seconds later a hit and a hand in my left pocket while i went down). Another time I could fight back and somehow "won" (but took a scar from the encounter, the guy hit me with some ring i guess but his 2 mates weren't really into it or i'm some kind of berserker and one of them likely is missing some teeth) and from the guy with the knife i did just run and i'm really not fast (try this against a gun).
Rob a tourist at knifepoint and the case goes on the bottom of the pile and no one really bothers to pursuit it. Kill a tourist and the police will look into it and try to find you, and the punishment if caught is massively higher. The cop is more willing to pull his gun then a criminal because he knows he will get away with it.
Sure, but i highly doubt the reason was that i was a "toruist". Locals in France (or the Netherlands or wherever) don't get killed "regularly" by robbers. If it happens it starts a huge shitshow. I also wasn't in a tourist destinations (stayed for ~4 months) and don't look visibly different from french people, I just was the last guy on his way home from the local Bar ("boit de nuit" or what its called in france, the places that can open till 4 instead of 0.30)  . If murders happens its usually criminals against criminals and even then, if stuff like this goes out of hand the state normally ends it very quickly. I feel like "gangs" and "organisations" like the Hells Angels and similar things get tolerated by the state up to a certain extent, until they overstep, so they don't (usually).
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EPT
