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Its not a channel only conspiracy people watch, its one of the absolute largest most mainstream news networks in America.
Americans are just very fairweather when it comes to politics, as soon as its next political season we're just interested in who wins rather than how they govern, its all like sports really.
Its not strictly unique to Republicans though they have gotten the brunt of it lately especially with how flagrantly useless Trump was, normally our politicians are bad in slightly more subdued ways or they'll cry helplessness to not have to do their jobs, depending on which party you follow.
As a reminder, George Bush started a brutal war that killed tons of people on false information about weapons of mass destruction and America has basically forgotten and tried to turn him back into a good guy.
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On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....]
Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?).
Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it.
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On November 16 2020 08:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Is Fox like an alternative news channel that only conspiracy ppl watch? Also does it include like almost 50% of US ppl? The original argument of mine was basically, are almost 50% of US ppl really like that?? Because that's basically what KwarK claimed in the original post.
Edit: fine i agree he didnt say "all" but still, i think it's a really twisted way of thinking things and i didnt know people in US decided who to vote because of news (in any numbers lol)...
The issue in the US is that there are only 2 parties that have any legitimate shot at winning and often times in the primaries people win with like <40% of delegates or less in contested presidential races. Thats how Trump won. He was very unpopular with a large segment of the GOP, but he had enough to get by with far far less than a plurality. Then because the alternative is a D most people have to make really terrible ordinal ranked preferential choices.
What if you support appointed justices like Gorsuch rather than Sotomayer, but also are strong on civil liberties, anti-war, and pro-market. Hillary sucks ass. Trump sucks. Its why you had both candidates with super unfavorable ratings. Its like if the vote in Finland was between a party that had Neo-liberal and socialists as one party and the other party were liberal democrats with fascist adjacent adherents. You have to think of the Rs and Ds as coalitions unto themselves with a wide range of views within the parties. Often times you dont vote for someone you vote against the other person.
I'm fine with the practical idea of "throwing my vote away" with Presidential elections, but not on down-ballot seats. I mean for gods sake the GOP ran Rick Santorum, Ron Paul, and Donald Trump....how different can you get in a "center-right" tent. Same with Dems who ran Gravel/Kucinich, Gabbard/Buttiegeg, Sanders and Clinton in "center-left" coalition.
EU folks just don't understand US dynamics. Its not that 72 million people support Trump, its that 72 million people dont want what the D's are offering.
By the way the best example of this is NH who tend to vote D nationally but are heavy Republican at the state level as NH GOP is very libertarian which is a distinct coalition within the GOP. You see this elsewhere too. You just cant have a purity test of position in these parties and expect to win nationally (which is why if AOC ever wins Speaker or runs D races theyll get stomped hard - you gotta let folks have a range of positions to win in diverse districts as there is only 2 parties and you need to occupy some 50% to left or right of center otherwise you alienate too many folks).
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I understand what you are saying Wegandi but i still dont understand the mentality of there being "truth of today and tomorrow". Either it is bullshit or visionary bullshit :D There is only truth.
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On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it.
The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative.
There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID.
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On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
Its not a channel only conspiracy people watch, its one of the absolute largest most mainstream news networks in America.
Americans are just very fairweather when it comes to politics, as soon as its next political season we're just interested in who wins rather than how they govern, its all like sports really.
Its not strictly unique to Republicans though they have gotten the brunt of it lately especially with how flagrantly useless Trump was, normally our politicians are bad in slightly more subdued ways or they'll cry helplessness to not have to do their jobs, depending on which party you follow.
As a reminder, George Bush started a brutal war that killed tons of people on false information about weapons of mass destruction and America has basically forgotten and tried to turn him back into a good guy.
Joe Biden also voted for that war. It's comical the short memory folks have. I remember going to anti-war rallies during Bush and all the lefties disappeared after Obama won even though nothing changed. Thats a big problem across the spectrum.
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On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID.
Every nation has taken a hit because of covid.
How are the numbers before covid?
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Trump had the Presidency, the Senate, the House, and the Supreme Court theoretically in his favor for a long while and his campaign promises were very poorly met. He didn't build the wall and Mexico sure didnt pay for it, he couldnt repeal Obamacare, we still have troops in the Middle East, skyrocketed the national debt, did nothing for infrastructure, and so on for his less well known promises.
Im not saying he did NOTHING, he did cut taxes, and he cut regulations with the whole not staffing the government shtick, but given JUST how favorable conditions were for him he really should've gotten more done if he wasn't a narcissistic buffoon that provided more of an obstacle for Republicans to work around rather than a means for them to accomplish anything.
He had slightly more of an excuse to get less done once the Democrats won the House back in 2018, but still, control of the Senate, Judiciary, and Presidency is a lot of power and Republicans havent been good at materializing anything out of it.
His handling of Covid is 100% on him, he said it'd be gone by Easter. Sure he couldn't have entirely stopped it, but thats not something anyone was ever going to be able to do, hes judged on the country's handling of it via spread, lockdowns, death numbers, etc. and his initial insistence that it was a fake virus made up by the democrats that would vanish suddenly in no time so it didnt matter was a huge wet fart of a response and its lead us to our shameful position as Prime Example of American Exceptionalism being taken in the opposite direction as intended, lol
On November 16 2020 09:09 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
Its not a channel only conspiracy people watch, its one of the absolute largest most mainstream news networks in America.
Americans are just very fairweather when it comes to politics, as soon as its next political season we're just interested in who wins rather than how they govern, its all like sports really.
Its not strictly unique to Republicans though they have gotten the brunt of it lately especially with how flagrantly useless Trump was, normally our politicians are bad in slightly more subdued ways or they'll cry helplessness to not have to do their jobs, depending on which party you follow.
As a reminder, George Bush started a brutal war that killed tons of people on false information about weapons of mass destruction and America has basically forgotten and tried to turn him back into a good guy. Joe Biden also voted for that war. It's comical the short memory folks have. I remember going to anti-war rallies during Bush and all the lefties disappeared after Obama won even though nothing changed. Thats a big problem across the spectrum.
Yes, Biden was for the war, hes for almost any war, I was watching a clip of him bragging about wanting to bomb Serbia when that was athing, he is an example of the problems with the older generations of politicians.
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On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID.
EU countries had a greater hit to their economies than the US from COVID. Its not as simple as "listen to the scientists" because epidemiologists have no economics background and don't view policy through that lens. Specialization to that degree is a problem. There's no inter-disciplinary communication and thats why you get awful results like in the EU. If Trump did one thing good through COVID it was to not only listen to the epidemiologists (if you want to argue he didnt really listen to them be my guest).
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On November 16 2020 09:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. Every nation has taken a hit because of covid. How are the numbers before covid?
Doesn't matter, since the unnecessary damage to the country as a result of federal mismanagement of the pandemic should be applied to him.
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On November 16 2020 09:14 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. Every nation has taken a hit because of covid. How are the numbers before covid? Doesn't matter, since the unnecessary damage to the country as a result of federal mismanagement of the pandemic should be applied to him.
Okay, then we do not understand each other.  In economics i mean. I can also see why you voted for Biden 100% though.
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On November 16 2020 09:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:14 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. Every nation has taken a hit because of covid. How are the numbers before covid? Doesn't matter, since the unnecessary damage to the country as a result of federal mismanagement of the pandemic should be applied to him. Okay, then we do not understand each other. In economics i mean. I can also see why you voted for Biden 100% though.
Some posters around here view economic science as voodoo or dogma basically. Just something to keep in mind.
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On November 16 2020 09:14 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. EU countries had a greater hit to their economies than the US from COVID. Its not as simple as "listen to the scientists" because epidemiologists have no economics background and don't view policy through that lens. Specialization to that degree is a problem. There's no inter-disciplinary communication and thats why you get awful results like in the EU. If Trump did one thing good through COVID it was to not only listen to the epidemiologists (if you want to argue he didnt really listen to them be my guest).
New Zealand.
On November 16 2020 09:19 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. Every nation has taken a hit because of covid. How are the numbers before covid? Doesn't matter, since the unnecessary damage to the country as a result of federal mismanagement of the pandemic should be applied to him. Okay, then we do not understand each other. In economics i mean. I can also see why you voted for Biden 100% though. Some posters around here view economic science as voodoo or dogma basically. Just something to keep in mind.
How's the economy doing with areas having to go into Lockdown 2: COVID After You because chucklefucks refuse to wear a mask, and the populace are lax about COVID vigilance because they've been pushed to go along with life as usual with minimal safety precautions to companies don't get sued?
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On November 16 2020 09:14 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. EU countries had a greater hit to their economies than the US from COVID. Its not as simple as "listen to the scientists" because epidemiologists have no economics background and don't view policy through that lens. Specialization to that degree is a problem. There's no inter-disciplinary communication and thats why you get awful results like in the EU. If Trump did one thing good through COVID it was to not only listen to the epidemiologists (if you want to argue he didnt really listen to them be my guest).
Let's be real here.
Listen to the cientists is a prerequisite to forming a political decision after taking into account social, economic and health related concerns.
This us administration clearly does no listening, only yelling.
Compared to Europe, where scientists, both from health, social and economics related disciplines, are listened to and drawn into the decision making process.
And we have virologists and pandemic specialists criticising governments for doing too little too combat the spread of the virus, but that's because they do not copy paste their recommendations verbatim, unlike some special politicians sometimes have been proven to have done with policy proposals from agro or car manufacturers.
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On November 16 2020 09:19 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. Every nation has taken a hit because of covid. How are the numbers before covid? Doesn't matter, since the unnecessary damage to the country as a result of federal mismanagement of the pandemic should be applied to him. Okay, then we do not understand each other. In economics i mean. I can also see why you voted for Biden 100% though. Some posters around here view economic science as voodoo or dogma basically. Just something to keep in mind.
Mhm.. but you were the one that was not able to talk about numbers before covid and after.
Like.... Trump's achievements before covid and after. You said "before doesnt matter because all bad numbers skyrocketed because of covid". I am not sure that's his fault, regardless of what he has said (stupid shit yes i know) about covid. You seem to think all of it is his fault no matter what, i disagree. But it's still interesting, the discussion of how it is or isnt and why people think so.... ^^
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On November 16 2020 09:21 Artisreal wrote:
Compared to Europe, where scientists, both from health, social and economics related disciplines, are listened to and drawn into the decision making process.
That's not true. Finland didn't recommend masks to be used in first quarter of the year because we didnt have enough of them at disposal at the time. Regardless of the "ministery of health" saying so.
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On November 16 2020 09:12 Zambrah wrote:Trump had the Presidency, the Senate, the House, and the Supreme Court theoretically in his favor for a long while and his campaign promises were very poorly met. He didn't build the wall and Mexico sure didnt pay for it, he couldnt repeal Obamacare, we still have troops in the Middle East, skyrocketed the national debt, did nothing for infrastructure, and so on for his less well known promises. Im not saying he did NOTHING, he did cut taxes, and he cut regulations with the whole not staffing the government shtick, but given JUST how favorable conditions were for him he really should've gotten more done if he wasn't a narcissistic buffoon that provided more of an obstacle for Republicans to work around rather than a means for them to accomplish anything. He had slightly more of an excuse to get less done once the Democrats won the House back in 2018, but still, control of the Senate, Judiciary, and Presidency is a lot of power and Republicans havent been good at materializing anything out of it. His handling of Covid is 100% on him, he said it'd be gone by Easter. Sure he couldn't have entirely stopped it, but thats not something anyone was ever going to be able to do, hes judged on the country's handling of it via spread, lockdowns, death numbers, etc. and his initial insistence that it was a fake virus made up by the democrats that would vanish suddenly in no time so it didnt matter was a huge wet fart of a response and its lead us to our shameful position as Prime Example of American Exceptionalism being taken in the opposite direction as intended, lol Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:09 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
Its not a channel only conspiracy people watch, its one of the absolute largest most mainstream news networks in America.
Americans are just very fairweather when it comes to politics, as soon as its next political season we're just interested in who wins rather than how they govern, its all like sports really.
Its not strictly unique to Republicans though they have gotten the brunt of it lately especially with how flagrantly useless Trump was, normally our politicians are bad in slightly more subdued ways or they'll cry helplessness to not have to do their jobs, depending on which party you follow.
As a reminder, George Bush started a brutal war that killed tons of people on false information about weapons of mass destruction and America has basically forgotten and tried to turn him back into a good guy. Joe Biden also voted for that war. It's comical the short memory folks have. I remember going to anti-war rallies during Bush and all the lefties disappeared after Obama won even though nothing changed. Thats a big problem across the spectrum. Yes, Biden was for the war, hes for almost any war, I was watching a clip of him bragging about wanting to bomb Serbia when that was athing, he is an example of the problems with the older generations of politicians. Ehm Trump raised taxes on Americans, not cut. He cut taxes for corporations and gave a small temporary cut that turns into a permanent tax INCREASE in order to pay for the permanent corporation tax cut.
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On November 16 2020 09:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:19 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. Every nation has taken a hit because of covid. How are the numbers before covid? Doesn't matter, since the unnecessary damage to the country as a result of federal mismanagement of the pandemic should be applied to him. Okay, then we do not understand each other. In economics i mean. I can also see why you voted for Biden 100% though. Some posters around here view economic science as voodoo or dogma basically. Just something to keep in mind. Mhm.. but you were the one that was not able to talk about numbers before covid and after. Like.... Trump's achievements before covid and after. You said "before doesnt matter because all bad numbers skyrocketed because of covid". I am not sure that's his fault, regardless of what he has said (stupid shit yes i know) about covid. You seem to think all of it is his fault no matter what, i disagree. But it's still interesting, the discussion of how it is or isnt and why people think so.... ^^
You have me confused with another poster. My views on COVID and COVID related policy are a lot different than 98% of the posters here.
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Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes.
Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people.
I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. 
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EPT
