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On November 16 2020 09:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:16 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:14 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:09 Gahlo wrote:On November 16 2020 09:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 08:54 Zambrah wrote:
[...]how flagrantly useless Trump was[....] Can you explain this to me? Because i think (or at least thought) economics and jobs are a big thing for Americans, and i dont think Trump has done bad in that (am i mistaken?). Disclaimer; I think you can blame him for handling covid bad, but i don't think you can blame him for it. The economy hasn't gotten much better, if at all, for people that don't own stock. Jobs are a negative. There's a certain amount of COVID that he can't be blamed for. It's almost tailor made to fuck up the week communal spirit of Americans and the structural rot in our society. However, minimizing it's overall effect is like taking a penalty shot with an open net. Just do what the scientists say and you're golden. Instead he chose not to listen to them and actively disrupted efforts(directly or through subordinates that faced no repercussions) to fight COVID. Every nation has taken a hit because of covid. How are the numbers before covid? Doesn't matter, since the unnecessary damage to the country as a result of federal mismanagement of the pandemic should be applied to him. Okay, then we do not understand each other.  In economics i mean. I can also see why you voted for Biden 100% though. Economics were good before Trump as well so if you want to say he did well it would be good to talk about a policy and how it helped. For example his tax cut helped very big companies buy back a lot of stock making their stock prices rise helping those few who opened those stocks, and the very few who held much. The downside to this policy was the economy was doing well without it, it helped few and then when whatever trouble came the government would have less options (money and rates) to adjust to deal with it. I'd say he was handed a amazing economy made short sighted decisions and then when a issue happened he not only handled that badly but all his decisions before made it worse not better. If you look at Trumps entire presidency (and most of his life) it is about immediate gratification and short sightedness. This has led to all his personal financial and business failures as well as many of the USAs current problems. Also, his lack or intelligence, wisdom or knowledge or whatever you think is the reason he can't wrap his head around things like how tariffs work along with his inability to trust experts on anything more than his "gut" has led to a whole other host of problems. His other, and maybe biggest failing, was he is completely unable to hire competent people. Not only did he leave many important posts unfilled but most of the people he hired ended up horrible by his own admission (and many have faced or will face legal issues due to incompetence or corruption). And that is not even getting into the nepotism of hiring completely unqualified family and friends.
I am not talking about Trump character. I know you are right already on that.
If you want to answer me, please show how he did in numbers. Employment, etc... you know that are actually important to ppl.
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On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it.  Yeah no, that "at that own expense" part is the problem. And is why there was a small tax cut that over time turns into a tax increase.
Because his supporters don't support getting a tax increase, it was sold as a lie for a reason.
Now the GOP can blame Biden for raising taxes, despite it being a Trump bill.
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On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it.
US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives.
Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%.
Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%.
For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate.
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Tbh I wonder if that was the plan? That'd be pretty devious if it works. It feels entirely possible for the GOP to do something like that, I wonder if Democrats will be able to counteract it (or even just the narrative it would create) before the next election cycle.
Again though, he lowered corporate taxes and that likely counts enough to qualify for a "tax cut," tax cuts don't strictly HAVE to cut taxes along the board, and American conservatives believe in things like Trickle Down Economics enough to think that those corporate tax cuts will trickle down to them sooner or later, regardless of any increased tax burden on themselves.
Its not a particularly coherent way to look at it imo, but thats a way I hear conservatives around me think.
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On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate.
What does corporate taxes actually mean?
E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries.........
Your 35% was fine ^_^
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On November 16 2020 09:44 Zambrah wrote:
Tbh I wonder if that was the plan? That'd be pretty devious if it works. It feels entirely possible for the GOP to do something like that, I wonder if Democrats will be able to counteract it (or even just the narrative it would create) before the next election cycle.
Again though, he lowered corporate taxes and that likely counts enough to qualify for a "tax cut," tax cuts don't strictly HAVE to cut taxes along the board, and American conservatives believe in things like Trickle Down Economics enough to think that those corporate tax cuts will trickle down to them sooner or later, regardless of any increased tax burden on themselves.
Its not a particularly coherent way to look at it imo, but thats a way I hear conservatives around me think.
Income taxes were also cut. I tend to think it doesnt do much in the long run because spending wasnt addressed and Government spending IS a tax. Who do you thinks pays interest in the debt and is liable for spending receipts? The taxpayers.
Anyways, its funny to hear you talk about increased tax burdens. Your policy prescriptions require massive increase of tax burden for the working/middle class. (Around double or more) I would really like folks to be honest rather than disingenguous when it comes to this issue.
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On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate.
How much of that tax rate do companies actually pay in those countries as opposed to here? How much does the middle class of their respective groups pay when you take into account covering line items that the other doesn't, such as health insurance?
Such incredibly shallow statements.
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I dont think most people understand how taxes and "taxes" work in countries. For example in Finland we pay tax for the tax we pay for electricity (yes, it's true, check your bill if you are finnish ^^)
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The only person here I feel comfortable taking tax information from is KwarK tbh.
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On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^
The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality.
You can see from the link below. The US public spending on welfare is just under OECD average, but combine public and private and its near the top in GDP %.
https://www.oecd.org/social/expenditure.htm
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On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality.
I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU.
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On November 16 2020 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality. I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU.
How can you disagree with facts?
http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/corporate-tax-statistics-database.htm
Compare the US to the EU countries. If you want the 2017 numbers I can give you those. (The US was #1 then at 35%)
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On November 16 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality. I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU. How can you disagree with facts? http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/corporate-tax-statistics-database.htmCompare the US to the EU countries. If you want the 2017 numbers I can give you those. (The US was #1 then at 35%)
Because the effective tax rate that most companies pay is substantially lower.
We have an extremely convoluted tax system with countless write-offs and loopholes.
The tax rates that you and other conservatives constantly quote are talking points with no basis in actual reality.
Even if, for the sake of argument, we took everything that you said as true, then you need to explain why, when the U.S. taxes comparably and spends comparably to other nations, that every other peer nation in the world can accomplish significantly more with all of their money spent than we can. This includes an infinitely better healthcare system, significantly cheaper college, significantly better public education, a significantly more robust social safety net/welfare system, etc. etc. etc.
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On November 16 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality. I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU. How can you disagree with facts? http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/corporate-tax-statistics-database.htmCompare the US to the EU countries. If you want the 2017 numbers I can give you those. (The US was #1 then at 35%)
can you show me a picture please?
from your chart it says that india pays the most taxes in the world and i know that's wrong even without looking anything....
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On November 16 2020 10:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality. I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU. How can you disagree with facts? http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/corporate-tax-statistics-database.htmCompare the US to the EU countries. If you want the 2017 numbers I can give you those. (The US was #1 then at 35%) Because the effective tax rate that most companies pay is substantially lower. We have an extremely convoluted tax system with countless write-offs and loopholes. The tax rates that you and other conservatives constantly quote are talking points with no basis in actual reality. Even if, for the sake of argument, we took everything that you said as true, then you need to explain why, when the U.S. taxes comparably and spends comparably to other nations, that every other peer nation in the world can accomplish significantly more with all of their money spent that we can. This includes an infinitely better healthcare system, significantly cheaper college, significantly better public education, a significantly more robust social safety net/welfare system, etc. etc. etc.
thank you sir or madam
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On November 16 2020 10:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality. I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU. How can you disagree with facts? http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/corporate-tax-statistics-database.htmCompare the US to the EU countries. If you want the 2017 numbers I can give you those. (The US was #1 then at 35%) Because the effective tax rate that most companies pay is substantially lower. We have an extremely convoluted tax system with countless write-offs and loopholes. The tax rates that you and other conservatives constantly quote are talking points with no basis in actual reality. Even if, for the sake of argument, we took everything that you said as true, then you need to explain why, when the U.S. taxes comparably and spends comparably to other nations, that every other peer nation in the world can accomplish significantly more with all of their money spent that we can. This includes an infinitely better healthcare system, significantly cheaper college, significantly better public education, a significantly more robust social safety net/welfare system, etc. etc. etc.
The biggest military in the world.
edit: I do think corporate tax rates can be deceptive. The UK is low on this list already but if you take into account all the loopholes our tax system is basically an honour system.
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On November 16 2020 10:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality. I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU. How can you disagree with facts? http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/corporate-tax-statistics-database.htmCompare the US to the EU countries. If you want the 2017 numbers I can give you those. (The US was #1 then at 35%) Because the effective tax rate that most companies pay is substantially lower. We have an extremely convoluted tax system with countless write-offs and loopholes. The tax rates that you and other conservatives constantly quote are talking points with no basis in actual reality. Even if, for the sake of argument, we took everything that you said as true, then you need to explain why, when the U.S. taxes comparably and spends comparably to other nations, that every other peer nation in the world can accomplish significantly more with all of their money spent than we can. This includes an infinitely better healthcare system, significantly cheaper college, significantly better public education, a significantly more robust social safety net/welfare system, etc. etc. etc.
You realize the US subsidizes EU defense? The EU countries cannot afford the level of defense spending of the US and maintain its welfare spending. (They can barely afford their welfare states as is which is why you see Sweden moving in the last decade to reduce it)
You knew this before you even typed what you said, but you chose to ignore it for some reason..?
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On November 16 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality. I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU. How can you disagree with facts? http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/corporate-tax-statistics-database.htmCompare the US to the EU countries. If you want the 2017 numbers I can give you those. (The US was #1 then at 35%)
Calculating the full tax burden on companies under any jurisdiction is difficult, and the folk in here who have more accounting experience can surely shed light in how meaningful stuff like corporate tax is at measuring what the firms actually pay in tax.
Yes US corporation tax rate may be equivalent to EU rates, but are the employer's components of pensions or social security or other similar taxes and taxlike charges similar? I have my doubts here. Also taxes on fuel and energy may vary greatly. Corporate tax rate is not good evidence that US corporations pay as much tax as EU ones. They may pay the same, they may pay more or they may pay less, but all the corporate tax rate tells that they pay roughly the same amount from their accounting profits which are quite easy to manipulate to change how much tax the firm has to pay.
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On November 16 2020 10:17 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2020 10:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 16 2020 10:02 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:53 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 16 2020 09:44 Wegandi wrote:On November 16 2020 09:36 Zambrah wrote:Yeah, like I said, he cut taxes. Its not going to help any actual Americans and isn't going to cut THEIR taxes, but lets be realistic, that was never the goal lol. Its always going to be about lowering corporate taxes and shifting as much of that burden back on to the American people. I still count it as a tax cut though, I'd argue this was the plan, that his supporters are happy with cutting taxes for corporations at their own expense, and whether or not its actually a good thing to have happened for the vast majority of people doesn't so much matter when it comes to counting it, after all the Wall would've been useless and expensive too, but if he had built it I'd have counted it. US corporate taxes are higher compared to almost all EU and OECD countries (or at least were prior to 2017) and income tax rates (and we have no national 20%+ VAT) are lower for "middle class" tax brackets in the US compared to EU countries. In almost every metric the US has the most progressive tax code among the "developed" world. It is staggering to hear these arguments from progressives. Take...Denmarks corporate tax rate of 22% or Netherlands at is 15% and 21.7% (they have two brackets) or Sweden at 22%. Currently US rate is 21%. How is this egregious but these other countries not? Want to know what US rates were before the Trump tax cuts? 35%. For talk about facts I am always amazed by how little is evident when discussing progressivity between countries that folks point to to emulate. What does corporate taxes actually mean? E: lol no, dont even compare US taxes to nordic countries......... Your 35% was fine ^_^ The countries progressives love love love have very regressive tax structures. Ya the US doesnt have UHC or free college, but the US does have a very large welfare state as well. Their reality is just not well...reality. I disagree though with what you said about US corporations paying more taxes then EU ones. It's just simply wrong for most of the countries in EU. How can you disagree with facts? http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/corporate-tax-statistics-database.htmCompare the US to the EU countries. If you want the 2017 numbers I can give you those. (The US was #1 then at 35%) Because the effective tax rate that most companies pay is substantially lower. We have an extremely convoluted tax system with countless write-offs and loopholes. The tax rates that you and other conservatives constantly quote are talking points with no basis in actual reality. Even if, for the sake of argument, we took everything that you said as true, then you need to explain why, when the U.S. taxes comparably and spends comparably to other nations, that every other peer nation in the world can accomplish significantly more with all of their money spent than we can. This includes an infinitely better healthcare system, significantly cheaper college, significantly better public education, a significantly more robust social safety net/welfare system, etc. etc. etc. You realize the US subsidizes EU defense? The EU countries cannot afford the level of defense spending of the US and maintain its welfare spending. (They can barely afford their welfare states as is which is why you see Sweden moving in the last decade to reduce it) You knew this before you even typed what you said, but you chose to ignore it for some reason..?
There is no level of defense in EU. Only NATO.
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I love when presented with facts folks resort to but not really then turn around and point at the same tax bracket information and yell from the rafters. How can you dismiss the statutory rates then yell that Trump is destroying everyone by pointing to.....the statutory tax brackets.
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EPT
