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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On October 10 2020 01:05 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2020 21:06 Velr wrote:
Yep, same here.
And Anarcho-Transfeminism seems inexistent even in these comics. WTF is anarcho-transfeminism? I’m sure anarchists can erase the trans identity, just like regular people are accused of doing. If these pol balls are some dumb iteration for weird groups at the margins, go check out their granddaddy Polandball. The originals from back several years are funny retelling of history through flags and balls. They’re just flags of countries and former countries. Also, Nevuk, Tucker was the cofounder of DC news just like Gavin McInnes was cofounder of Vice (and Proud Boys). I wouldn’t call it Tucker’s site. They’re just a generic part of conservative digital media these days.
All true. Edited my post to reflect that. Ty for correction.
(Also, Scaramucci these days is invited on talk programs only to attack and disparage Trump, and the future moderator asked scaramucci specifically about responding to Trump. Scully went on to delete his account, then restore and delete the tweet, then his comoderator claimed scully was hacked.)
It's pretty pathetic to claim he was hacked.
I don't see anything wrong with getting some feedback from Scaramucci on how to interact with Trump tbh (they did have a brief working relationship). Doing it via public tweet is a little stupid, considering a 5 minute phone call would cover all the info he would want.
CSPAN is actually investigating it, so maybe it's true? Incredibly pointless hack if it was one, though. CSPAN would pretty much have to get the FBI involved in it, so a false report would be incredibly idiotic.
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On October 09 2020 21:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2020 21:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 09 2020 18:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 09 2020 17:44 GreenHorizons wrote:
Flags are simple, cheap, and effective propaganda. It's why every country and so many groups of all stripes have them. They are symbols, not propaganda. Just putting there the meaning of propaganda from the Webster dictionary: 2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause
also : a public action having such an effect Hardly see how flags qualify. Symbols can be propaganda. The US flag and various display configurations are salient examples most everyone is familiar with. As another example: someone sees an unfamiliar flag, asks its meaning, it has now served to spread ideas and information meant to help an institution/group. (Curiosity often motivates people to learn more) "Thin Blue Line American Flag" is another. Or they can be more straightforward: the rainbow is slightly more ambiguous). + Show Spoiler +Simple, effective, propaganda. A flag represents an idea, an entity or an institution. Like, I am at sea, I want people to know that my ship is french, I put a blue, white, red piece of cloth at the top of it, and everyone knows I am french because we have all agreed that this colour pattern means "France". That's faster, more efficient and easier than writing "France" everywhere. Or I am an ambassador and I want people to know that territory in London, well, actually is french, cause it's an embassy. I put a flag on it and people are like "Oh, that's France. Gotta be the embassy". Or I want people to know that this building in an official building, owned and ran by the french Republic. Etc, etc, etc. I get it, you want to see how evil and cynical everything is. That's very cool and all, but no, a flag in itself has nothing to do with propaganda. Or everything is and the whole thing loses all its meaning, doesn't it? Can flags be used for propaganda purpose? Sure. Are flag in themselves a piece of propaganda? No, that makes 0 sense.
Propaganda isn't a bad word/thing. it's basically like PR but through a Marxist lens (flags act like a logo of sorts). What makes propaganda good or bad is whether it's honest and what it is advancing.
So no, it has nothing to do with your hackneyed analysis of "you want to see how evil and cynical everything is"
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I fail to see how flags in Biff's example would be propaganda. Flags can be propaganda, but not always. Which was his point.
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Such a nonstory. Trump wants one of the talking airheads that regularly fellate him live on air to do the same in a debate setting.
But the problem is an ACTUAL journalist making an innocent tweet ( which might not even be from him lol) and suddenly the world is on fire because BIAS. Meanwhile Trump phones Hannity and calls without basis for the incarceration for Biden et al because "THEY SPIED ON MY CAMPAIGN"... without impunity. And says he wants a live debate because he THINKS he is not contagious anymore.
God how I hope this nightmare ends soon.
It is times like these I ask myself if we would not be better off with going the China route.
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It reeks of another Joy Reid hacking scenario. It will require extraordinary public disclosure of evidence to overcome the default presumption: he made a boomer twitter mistake trying to send a DM. It’s still a pretty small deal if he hadn’t claimed something strange after. Campaigns agree to these moderators.
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On October 10 2020 01:56 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how flags in Biff's example would be propaganda. Flags can be propaganda, but not always. Which was his point.
The reason it is the French flag is because the colors and pattern has significance to them. Some people are more aware of it than others, but it's not some random symbol without a propaganda message that is inherent to its origin.
The history behind the French Tricolour, is just one of the many interesting facts about France. As with other nations, France’s flag is highly symbolic of the nation’s core values.
The meaning of the flag’s colors are deeply rooted in the country’s aristocratic and revolutionary history. Traditional colors of the flag in pre-revolutionary France contained a white background with a blue shield and the gold Fleur-de-lys depicting the royal coat of arms. However, after the French Revolution, the country’s leaders wanted a simpler design that supported the new values of the nation, and the French Tricolour was adopted.
EDIT:
White
White is the traditional color of the House of Bourbon, who ruled in France from the late 16th Century until the French Revolution. On the flag, the color white represents the King.
Red and Blue
The red and blue in the flag represents the city of Paris. Revolutionaries in Paris traditionally flew red and blue. Likewise, revolutionaries wore blue and red cockades (ribbons) on their hats when they stormed the Bastille in 1789.
www.ila-france.com
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I know the history. But you will agree that most people don't, and that the reason the french flag is on the french embassy is because it's a french embassy. Not because France wants to projects their "nation's core values" in their faces.
Unless France is still a monarchy?
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On October 10 2020 02:22 Erasme wrote:
I know the history. But you will agree that most people don't, and that the reason the french flag is on the french embassy is because it's a french embassy. Not because France wants to projects their nation's core values in their faces.
Can people be oblivious to the propaganda? Absolutely. Being oblivious to the propaganda of raising flags at embassies, doesn't mean it isn't there.
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On October 10 2020 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 01:56 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how flags in Biff's example would be propaganda. Flags can be propaganda, but not always. Which was his point. The reason it is the French flag is because the colors and pattern has significance to them. Some people are more aware of it than others, but it's not some random symbol without a propaganda message that is inherent to its origin. Show nested quote +The history behind the French Tricolour, is just one of the many interesting facts about France. As with other nations, France’s flag is highly symbolic of the nation’s core values.
The meaning of the flag’s colors are deeply rooted in the country’s aristocratic and revolutionary history. Traditional colors of the flag in pre-revolutionary France contained a white background with a blue shield and the gold Fleur-de-lys depicting the royal coat of arms. However, after the French Revolution, the country’s leaders wanted a simpler design that supported the new values of the nation, and the French Tricolour was adopted. EDIT: Show nested quote +White
White is the traditional color of the House of Bourbon, who ruled in France from the late 16th Century until the French Revolution. On the flag, the color white represents the King.
Red and Blue
The red and blue in the flag represents the city of Paris. Revolutionaries in Paris traditionally flew red and blue. Likewise, revolutionaries wore blue and red cockades (ribbons) on their hats when they stormed the Bastille in 1789. www.ila-france.com
lol. Yeah we know, it's symbolism. Still doesn't have anything to do with propaganda, but whatever. It's like saying the word "France" or "United States of America" is propaganda. Makes absolutely zero sense. That's simply not what the word propaganda means, in any context, marxist or not.
I gave you two dictionary definitions, they don't apply whatsoever. Here are more:
Cambridge dictionary:
Propaganda: information, ideas, opinions, or images, often only giving one part of an argument, that are broadcast, published, or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions
Collins:
Propaganda is information, often inaccurate information, which a political organization publishes or broadcasts in order to influence people.
Britannica:
Propaganda, dissemination of information—facts, arguments, rumours, half-truths, or lies—to influence public opinion.
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On October 10 2020 02:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 10 2020 01:56 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how flags in Biff's example would be propaganda. Flags can be propaganda, but not always. Which was his point. The reason it is the French flag is because the colors and pattern has significance to them. Some people are more aware of it than others, but it's not some random symbol without a propaganda message that is inherent to its origin. The history behind the French Tricolour, is just one of the many interesting facts about France. As with other nations, France’s flag is highly symbolic of the nation’s core values.
The meaning of the flag’s colors are deeply rooted in the country’s aristocratic and revolutionary history. Traditional colors of the flag in pre-revolutionary France contained a white background with a blue shield and the gold Fleur-de-lys depicting the royal coat of arms. However, after the French Revolution, the country’s leaders wanted a simpler design that supported the new values of the nation, and the French Tricolour was adopted. EDIT: White
White is the traditional color of the House of Bourbon, who ruled in France from the late 16th Century until the French Revolution. On the flag, the color white represents the King.
Red and Blue
The red and blue in the flag represents the city of Paris. Revolutionaries in Paris traditionally flew red and blue. Likewise, revolutionaries wore blue and red cockades (ribbons) on their hats when they stormed the Bastille in 1789. www.ila-france.com lol. Yeah we know, it's symbolism. Still doesn't have anything to do with propaganda, but whatever. It's like saying the word "France" or "United States of America" is propaganda. Makes absolutely zero sense. That's simply not what the word propaganda means, in any context, marxist or not. I gave you two dictionary definitions, they don't apply whatsoever.
They are quite literally meant for spreading of ideas, information,... for the purpose of helping ... an institution, a cause, or a person
You even acknowledge the most basic information they spread (for which even the oblivious can usually identify), the identity and presence of a nation/s influence.
I have no idea what you have against recognizing flags as propaganda, or why that they aren't propaganda in your view sometimes matters, but flags are most definitely propaganda tools.
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On October 10 2020 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 02:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2020 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 10 2020 01:56 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how flags in Biff's example would be propaganda. Flags can be propaganda, but not always. Which was his point. The reason it is the French flag is because the colors and pattern has significance to them. Some people are more aware of it than others, but it's not some random symbol without a propaganda message that is inherent to its origin. The history behind the French Tricolour, is just one of the many interesting facts about France. As with other nations, France’s flag is highly symbolic of the nation’s core values.
The meaning of the flag’s colors are deeply rooted in the country’s aristocratic and revolutionary history. Traditional colors of the flag in pre-revolutionary France contained a white background with a blue shield and the gold Fleur-de-lys depicting the royal coat of arms. However, after the French Revolution, the country’s leaders wanted a simpler design that supported the new values of the nation, and the French Tricolour was adopted. EDIT: White
White is the traditional color of the House of Bourbon, who ruled in France from the late 16th Century until the French Revolution. On the flag, the color white represents the King.
Red and Blue
The red and blue in the flag represents the city of Paris. Revolutionaries in Paris traditionally flew red and blue. Likewise, revolutionaries wore blue and red cockades (ribbons) on their hats when they stormed the Bastille in 1789. www.ila-france.com lol. Yeah we know, it's symbolism. Still doesn't have anything to do with propaganda, but whatever. It's like saying the word "France" or "United States of America" is propaganda. Makes absolutely zero sense. That's simply not what the word propaganda means, in any context, marxist or not. I gave you two dictionary definitions, they don't apply whatsoever. They are quite literally meant for Show nested quote +spreading of ideas, information,... for the purpose of helping ... an institution, a cause, or a person You even acknowledge the most basic information they spread (for which even the oblivious can usually identify), the identity and presence of a nation/s influence. I have no idea what you have against recognizing flags as propaganda, or why that they aren't propaganda in your view sometimes matters, but flags are most definitely propaganda tools.
Propaganda implies you are trying to convince people. Otherwise every piece of information and every sign and every symbol is "propaganda" and the word loses all its meaning. How the fuck does a flag on a boat correspond even vaguely to those definitions I gave you?
Jesus man, those hills you chose to die on. It will always remain a mystery for me.
I'm out of here, it's like talking to a brick wall.
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On October 10 2020 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 02:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2020 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 10 2020 01:56 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how flags in Biff's example would be propaganda. Flags can be propaganda, but not always. Which was his point. The reason it is the French flag is because the colors and pattern has significance to them. Some people are more aware of it than others, but it's not some random symbol without a propaganda message that is inherent to its origin. The history behind the French Tricolour, is just one of the many interesting facts about France. As with other nations, France’s flag is highly symbolic of the nation’s core values.
The meaning of the flag’s colors are deeply rooted in the country’s aristocratic and revolutionary history. Traditional colors of the flag in pre-revolutionary France contained a white background with a blue shield and the gold Fleur-de-lys depicting the royal coat of arms. However, after the French Revolution, the country’s leaders wanted a simpler design that supported the new values of the nation, and the French Tricolour was adopted. EDIT: White
White is the traditional color of the House of Bourbon, who ruled in France from the late 16th Century until the French Revolution. On the flag, the color white represents the King.
Red and Blue
The red and blue in the flag represents the city of Paris. Revolutionaries in Paris traditionally flew red and blue. Likewise, revolutionaries wore blue and red cockades (ribbons) on their hats when they stormed the Bastille in 1789. www.ila-france.com lol. Yeah we know, it's symbolism. Still doesn't have anything to do with propaganda, but whatever. It's like saying the word "France" or "United States of America" is propaganda. Makes absolutely zero sense. That's simply not what the word propaganda means, in any context, marxist or not. I gave you two dictionary definitions, they don't apply whatsoever. They are quite literally meant for Show nested quote +spreading of ideas, information,... for the purpose of helping ... an institution, a cause, or a person You even acknowledge the most basic information they spread (for which even the oblivious can usually identify), the identity and presence of a nation/s influence. I have no idea what you have against recognizing flags as propaganda, or why that they aren't propaganda in your view sometimes matters, but flags are most definitely propaganda tools.
How does having a french flag on top of the embassy helps france ? Do you see the flag and get the sudden motivation to do your best for France and not your own country ?
I know that americans love their flag, but not every country in the world has the same veneration for their flag.
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On October 10 2020 02:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 10 2020 02:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2020 02:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 10 2020 01:56 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how flags in Biff's example would be propaganda. Flags can be propaganda, but not always. Which was his point. The reason it is the French flag is because the colors and pattern has significance to them. Some people are more aware of it than others, but it's not some random symbol without a propaganda message that is inherent to its origin. The history behind the French Tricolour, is just one of the many interesting facts about France. As with other nations, France’s flag is highly symbolic of the nation’s core values.
The meaning of the flag’s colors are deeply rooted in the country’s aristocratic and revolutionary history. Traditional colors of the flag in pre-revolutionary France contained a white background with a blue shield and the gold Fleur-de-lys depicting the royal coat of arms. However, after the French Revolution, the country’s leaders wanted a simpler design that supported the new values of the nation, and the French Tricolour was adopted. EDIT: White
White is the traditional color of the House of Bourbon, who ruled in France from the late 16th Century until the French Revolution. On the flag, the color white represents the King.
Red and Blue
The red and blue in the flag represents the city of Paris. Revolutionaries in Paris traditionally flew red and blue. Likewise, revolutionaries wore blue and red cockades (ribbons) on their hats when they stormed the Bastille in 1789. www.ila-france.com lol. Yeah we know, it's symbolism. Still doesn't have anything to do with propaganda, but whatever. It's like saying the word "France" or "United States of America" is propaganda. Makes absolutely zero sense. That's simply not what the word propaganda means, in any context, marxist or not. I gave you two dictionary definitions, they don't apply whatsoever. They are quite literally meant for spreading of ideas, information,... for the purpose of helping ... an institution, a cause, or a person You even acknowledge the most basic information they spread (for which even the oblivious can usually identify), the identity and presence of a nation/s influence. I have no idea what you have against recognizing flags as propaganda, or why that they aren't propaganda in your view sometimes matters, but flags are most definitely propaganda tools. Propaganda implies you are trying to convince people. Otherwise every piece of information and every sign and every symbol is "propaganda" and the word loses all its meaning. How the fuck does a flag on a boat correspond even vaguely to those definitions I gave you? Jesus man, those hills you chose to die on. It will always remain a mystery for me. I'm out of here, it's like talking to a brick wall.
You're telling me. I've explained how flags are propaganda (this is something nations typically embrace) and that I don't even recognize the value of your point about when you identify them as not. Yes, most symbols that represent groups are a form of propaganda though and its meaning remains secure.
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A fun way to understand propaganda is to think of an example of capitalist propaganda and work to better understand it from there. That's where I'd pick this conversation back up (with examining an example of capitalist propaganda from the US they've provided).
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Northern Ireland27236 Posts
On October 10 2020 00:20 Nevuk wrote:Small news roundup. Cops were videoed beating Daily Caller reporters in Wisconsin last night (conservative site founded by Tucker Carlson... why are they attacking their allies?) Just another straw on the haystack pile that is evidence of police misconduct in the US. Two stories from the same interview: Trump called into Hannity's show last night and was audibly coughing and having issues catching his breath. While him not having gotten over COVID is not really any surprise, he is planning on starting campaigning publicly again tomorrow, which seems very dangerous for him and everyone at his events. Audio clips: https://www.mediaite.com/donald-trump/listen-trump-who-claims-hes-cured-from-covid-is-noticeably-hoarse-voice-breaks-off-twice-during-hannity-phone-interview/During that same interview, he is now insisting that he gets to choose the moderator for any future debates (he wants fox primetime hosts). This is because the originally scheduled moderator asked Scaramucci (a former Trump admin employee) for advice. Show nested quote +
“Let’s get a fair anchor,” Trump said. “Somebody like the great Sean Hannity. We’ll get Rush [Limbaugh], we’ll get Mark [Levin], we’ll get Laura [Ingraham], we’ll get judge Jeanine [Pirro]. We’ve got a lot of them out there. We’ll get Jesse [Watters], or Pete [Hegseth]. We’ve got a lot of them. Tucker [Carlson] is doing good.”
I’m unsure how much clearer they could have made it that they were press, but hey nothing too surprising there.
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I've been noticing some consternation over a potential October Surprise from the DoJ/Barr, especially tied to Durham's report on the origins of the alleged spying on Trump's campaign by Obama's administration over Russia, but Axios is reporting that Barr is informing top Republicans it won't be released before the election.
“This is the nightmare scenario. Essentially, the year and a half of arguably the number one issue for the Republican base is virtually meaningless if this doesn't happen before the election," a GOP congressional aide told Axios.
The general sense of the talks, the source says, is that Durham is not preoccupied with completing his probe by a certain deadline for political purposes.
https://www.axios.com/barr-durham-report-election-3c02ec6a-7613-4083-b35c-4844de6da16b.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic
Might explain why Trump was so frustrated with Barr in that recent Fox call. But even if a damning report about Obama or Biden were to be announced before the election, I think so many Biden voters have their minds made up and believe Barr is a partisan hack who can't be trusted, trust Biden more than Hillary and all the Hunter Biden stuff landed with a very dull thud. Hard to really see any October Surprise afflicting Biden badly this time unless it's concrete proof he eats babies or something.
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On October 10 2020 02:00 Danglars wrote:
It reeks of another Joy Reid hacking scenario. It will require extraordinary public disclosure of evidence to overcome the default presumption: he made a boomer twitter mistake trying to send a DM. It’s still a pretty small deal if he hadn’t claimed something strange after. Campaigns agree to these moderators.
Correct. However, unlike MSNBC, CSPAN is very reliant on congress. (So much so that I thought they were an arm of the government similar to NPR. They're actually a non-profit, apparently). That's about all they broadcast, really.
So It's not going to be hard at all for the Senate or House to find out the result of this investigation if they really want to (and I assume they will).
On October 10 2020 03:26 PhoenixVoid wrote:I've been noticing some consternation over a potential October Surprise from the DoJ/Barr, especially tied to Durham's report on the origins of the alleged spying on Trump's campaign by Obama's administration over Russia, but Axios is reporting that Barr is informing top Republicans it won't be released before the election. Show nested quote +“This is the nightmare scenario. Essentially, the year and a half of arguably the number one issue for the Republican base is virtually meaningless if this doesn't happen before the election," a GOP congressional aide told Axios.
Show nested quote +The general sense of the talks, the source says, is that Durham is not preoccupied with completing his probe by a certain deadline for political purposes. https://www.axios.com/barr-durham-report-election-3c02ec6a-7613-4083-b35c-4844de6da16b.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organicMight explain why Trump was so frustrated with Barr in that recent Fox call. But even if a damning report about Obama or Biden were to be announced before the election, I think so many Biden voters have their minds made up and believe Barr is a partisan hack who can't be trusted, trust Biden more than Hillary and all the Hunter Biden stuff landed with a very dull thud. Hard to really see any October Surprise afflicting Biden badly this time unless it's concrete proof he eats babies or something.
Trump said this was a disgrace and that he was going to tell Barr that to his face today, on the Limbaugh show
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On October 10 2020 03:26 PhoenixVoid wrote:I've been noticing some consternation over a potential October Surprise from the DoJ/Barr, especially tied to Durham's report on the origins of the alleged spying on Trump's campaign by Obama's administration over Russia, but Axios is reporting that Barr is informing top Republicans it won't be released before the election. Show nested quote +“This is the nightmare scenario. Essentially, the year and a half of arguably the number one issue for the Republican base is virtually meaningless if this doesn't happen before the election," a GOP congressional aide told Axios.
Show nested quote +The general sense of the talks, the source says, is that Durham is not preoccupied with completing his probe by a certain deadline for political purposes. https://www.axios.com/barr-durham-report-election-3c02ec6a-7613-4083-b35c-4844de6da16b.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organicMight explain why Trump was so frustrated with Barr in that recent Fox call. But even if a damning report about Obama or Biden were to be announced before the election, I think so many Biden voters have their minds made up and believe Barr is a partisan hack who can't be trusted, trust Biden more than Hillary and all the Hunter Biden stuff landed with a very dull thud. Hard to really see any October Surprise afflicting Biden badly this time unless it's concrete proof he eats babies or something.
Biden could come out and say the Tara Reade accusations are true and I still think he'd win at this point. Trump and the Republicans have absolutely botched campaigning against Biden in a way I didn't think was possible. All of their material was clearly made thinking Bernie Sanders would be the nominee and they just rolled with it instead of updating their gameplan. Biden has no energy behind him, yet people hate Trump so much, Trump's attack strategies have fallen so flat, and Trump's handling of Coronavirus has been so poor that I think Biden can win despite having virtually no enthusiastic support.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/otuYKHR.jpg)
