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On May 18 2020 02:04 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 01:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 18 2020 00:51 Yurie wrote:
BankID as used in Sweden is pretty close as well. Though not used for elections yet you can file changed residency location, declare taxes and similar things. If you physically vote before or at the actual date you require a physical ID card such as a drivers license, pass port or ID card. It is not free here but can usually be gotten within 2 weeks and 2 visits (1 for photography). Had multiple people I work with vote prior to election day when it suited them. Need government subsidies for people who can't afford to get one. It being free for everyone was poor phrasing for what I meant. As far as I know it is not possible to get for free here. Required in a few contexts outside voting (picking up packages, medicines, drivers license) though so would be hard to live without it for a lot of people. €35-40 depending on passport or ID card. €28 for renewal of drivers license + physical photo that you get printed or take (for a fee) at the transport department office. (Assume physical since it still requires sent in request.) I honestly don't see that as unreasonable as they last 5-10 years depending on type. For an annual cost below €5 + visit costs/years for the cheapest solution.
Any ideas why 20% of your country doesn't use it?
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I just noticed that my passport and id card both expired two weeks ago. I haven't renewed them because of corona (and because I'm lazy tbh). But not having a valid id is really strange to me. It sort of feels like I'm stateless lol. Also, I have to show my stupid old id every time I buy alcohol (even though the age limit is 21 in the store and I'm 33 - its a bit awkward when they notice that my id has expired but they can't really deny me because that would be too absurd since I'm 33.)
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On May 17 2020 23:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 16:05 Atreides wrote:
I mean a caucus is at least as much voter suppression as id requirements. It's humorous reading this, because europeans in this thread are all on board with republican voter suppression as an established fact, but in the US the most common complaint of voter suppression is ID requirements, and as far as I have seen that is completely accepted in european systems. The problem isn't the system, it is how it is used. See also the citizenship question on the census. Is that a horrible question we shouldn't be asking? No, it is important information we should be collecting. However, one of the people involved with it died and his daughter was kind enough to release information that showed the sinister reasons behind the question. If all US states gave IDs to everyone for free then no one would have a problem with voter ID laws. You'll notice that key difference between the US and Europe.
Unfortunately this is not true. All states that require an ID for voting also provide a free ID for that purpose on request. By way of example see the bottom right portion of the Indiana fee schedule here. So, we know as fee for obtaining an ID is not a good faith argument. I use Indiana because I had to cite their voter ID case recently.
Indeed, usually the argument is that its way too hard for some voters to prove they are US citizens. Again, by way of example, Indiana requires:
1) Proof of Identity
2) Proof of Lawful Status
3) Social Security Number
4) 2 Documents Proving Indiana Residence
Details of what you can use in the link. In practice, you basically need your birth certificate or naturalization papers from DHS, plus a tax document and one other misc document (like an electric bill). These requirements have become quite controversial.
On May 17 2020 23:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 15:38 cLutZ wrote:
Has any government even implemented a public-private key system at the levels of PGP for this? No. Estonia is pretty close to what you're looking for.
Its an interesting case, I don't think secure enough to persuade Americans, but I was referring more to US states, of which the verification systems for most absentee and mail in voting are pretty weak compared to this.
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On May 18 2020 04:18 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 23:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 17 2020 16:05 Atreides wrote:
I mean a caucus is at least as much voter suppression as id requirements. It's humorous reading this, because europeans in this thread are all on board with republican voter suppression as an established fact, but in the US the most common complaint of voter suppression is ID requirements, and as far as I have seen that is completely accepted in european systems. The problem isn't the system, it is how it is used. See also the citizenship question on the census. Is that a horrible question we shouldn't be asking? No, it is important information we should be collecting. However, one of the people involved with it died and his daughter was kind enough to release information that showed the sinister reasons behind the question. If all US states gave IDs to everyone for free then no one would have a problem with voter ID laws. You'll notice that key difference between the US and Europe. Unfortunately this is not true. All states that require an ID for voting also provide a free ID for that purpose on request. By way of example see the bottom right portion of the Indiana fee schedule here. So, we know as fee for obtaining an ID is not a good faith argument. I use Indiana because I had to cite their voter ID case recently. Indeed, usually the argument is that its way too hard for some voters to prove they are US citizens. Again, by way of example, Indiana requires: 1) Proof of Identity 2) Proof of Lawful Status 3) Social Security Number 4) 2 Documents Proving Indiana Residence Details of what you can use in the link. In practice, you basically need your birth certificate or naturalization papers from DHS, plus a tax document and one other misc document (like an electric bill). These requirements have become quite controversial.
You're missing the intention of providing free IDs. If there is any person who can vote who cannot obtain voter id for any reason that is unacceptable. The ID requiring documentation that people don't have isn't any better than charging money that people can't afford. Don't get hung up on the terminology.
More familiar with NC where our voter ID laws have been struck down in courts. The intention of these laws was clear that they were meant to disenfranchise voters and that is stated clearly in the courts verdict on the case.
On May 18 2020 04:18 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2020 23:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 17 2020 15:38 cLutZ wrote:
Has any government even implemented a public-private key system at the levels of PGP for this? No. Estonia is pretty close to what you're looking for. Its an interesting case, I don't think secure enough to persuade Americans, but I was referring more to US states, of which the verification systems for most absentee and mail in voting are pretty weak compared to this.
Considering federal real ID has been in works for 15 years now, I wouldn't bother even discussing such a thing in the US.
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On May 18 2020 02:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 02:04 Yurie wrote:On May 18 2020 01:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 18 2020 00:51 Yurie wrote:
BankID as used in Sweden is pretty close as well. Though not used for elections yet you can file changed residency location, declare taxes and similar things. If you physically vote before or at the actual date you require a physical ID card such as a drivers license, pass port or ID card. It is not free here but can usually be gotten within 2 weeks and 2 visits (1 for photography). Had multiple people I work with vote prior to election day when it suited them. Need government subsidies for people who can't afford to get one. It being free for everyone was poor phrasing for what I meant. As far as I know it is not possible to get for free here. Required in a few contexts outside voting (picking up packages, medicines, drivers license) though so would be hard to live without it for a lot of people. €35-40 depending on passport or ID card. €28 for renewal of drivers license + physical photo that you get printed or take (for a fee) at the transport department office. (Assume physical since it still requires sent in request.) I honestly don't see that as unreasonable as they last 5-10 years depending on type. For an annual cost below €5 + visit costs/years for the cheapest solution. Any ideas why 20% of your country doesn't use it?
BankID is probably not used for simple technical and effort reasons mostly. You need a compliant device (anything from last 5 years) and do the initial setup with your bank. Then there is probably a decent faction that lack the proper citizenship to get it working but still live here.
The discussion about digital identifier and ID card should probably be two different topics for now. Though in the US it might become the same one with the mobile wallets at some point ending up close to an ID that most people carry with them and pay to own and use.
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On May 18 2020 04:07 Elroi wrote:
I just noticed that my passport and id card both expired two weeks ago. I haven't renewed them because of corona (and because I'm lazy tbh). But not having a valid id is really strange to me. It sort of feels like I'm stateless lol. Also, I have to show my stupid old id every time I buy alcohol (even though the age limit is 21 in the store and I'm 33 - its a bit awkward when they notice that my id has expired but they can't really deny me because that would be too absurd since I'm 33.)
I've been denied buying alcohol in Systembolaget when I lived in Sweden in some pretty surreal circumstances. Actually, once I was asked to leave a student bar I was not supposed to be in - it was up to 30 yo - because I couldn't justify I wasn't under 21.
I think that's just to do with how strict Sweden is when it comes to regulating bars and the Systembolaget itself than anything else.
But anyway. From a european perspective, not having an official ID is indeed pretty weird. But from the moment it's not compulsory in the US, the argument that voter suppression is not a thing because european countries require a passport / ID card to vote doesn't really make sense.
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the argument that voter suppression is not a thing because european countries require a passport / ID card to vote doesn't really make sense.
Voter supression is not a thing imo because how hard can it be to get an ID card?
The argument that its to expensive makes little sense to me,its like 20$-30$ and it does last for years.
You need an ID to open a bank account,to do any sort of serious transaction.
Like if you want to register with a doctors practice,a library or even a gym,when you sign a rental contract,to prove your age when you go into a bar and what not. If people have trouble getting an idea the council can help you with it.
In usa i believe people get their voting ballots by mail so they must have an official adress at least. How is it difficult to get an id if you have an official adress,i honestly dont see it.
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On May 18 2020 10:01 pmh wrote:
the argument that voter suppression is not a thing because european countries require a passport / ID card to vote doesn't really make sense.
Voter supression is not a thing imo because how hard can it be to get an ID card?
The argument that its to expensive makes little sense to me,its like 20$-30$ and it does last for years.
You need an ID to open a bank account,to do any sort of serious transaction.
Like if you want to register with a doctors practice,a library or even a gym,when you sign a rental contract,to prove your age when you go into a bar and what not. If people have trouble getting an idea the council can help you with it.
In usa i believe people get their voting ballots by mail so they must have an official adress at least. How is it difficult to get an id if you have an official adress,i honestly dont see it.
Apparently it's quite difficult for many African Americans, to the point its widely considered to have been put into place specifically to disenfranchise them.
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On May 18 2020 10:01 pmh wrote:
the argument that voter suppression is not a thing because european countries require a passport / ID card to vote doesn't really make sense.
Voter supression is not a thing imo because how hard can it be to get an ID card?
The argument that its to expensive makes little sense to me,its like 20$-30$ and it does last for years.
You need an ID to open a bank account,to do any sort of serious transaction.
Like if you want to register with a doctors practice,a library or even a gym,when you sign a rental contract,to prove your age when you go into a bar and what not. If people have trouble getting an idea the council can help you with it.
In usa i believe people get their voting ballots by mail so they must have an official adress at least. How is it difficult to get an id if you have an official adress,i honestly dont see it.
Most states require some form of ID to vote. The states we're discussing with voter ID laws typically have strict requirements on what is accepted. In NC for instance, the law that was ruled unconstitutional and struck down makes a college ID not accepted despite being a picture ID. It was struck down specifically because of disparate impact to African American voters. Drivers licenses are issued at a DMV office in NC. You disenfranchise voters by shutting down DMV offices in areas that typically vote democrat.
It isn't just the cost of a few dollars. Some people even argue that voter id is unconstitutional based on poll tax. I would encourage you to read more here if you're interested
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ITT: Europeans literally can't understand how fucked up the US is.
User was warned for this post
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national ID makes sense if only for having sane and uniform security standards rather than having people try to prove their identity with some regional card or the gas bill. Should really be the norm in any country with a functioning bureaucracy.
But to be fair the voter thing is an issue in the US so I don't really see why you couldn't introduce an ID and simply give it two years or whatever until everyone has one.
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On May 18 2020 12:30 Nyxisto wrote:
national ID makes sense if only for having sane and uniform security standards rather than having people try to prove their identity with some regional card or the gas bill. Should really be the norm in any country with a functioning bureaucracy.
But to be fair the voter thing is an issue in the US so I don't really see why you couldn't introduce an ID and simply give it two years or whatever until everyone has one.
More like 15 or 16 years depending on which state you're in. See Real ID act of 2005.
https://www.dhs.gov/real-id
On May 18 2020 12:10 mikedebo wrote:
ITT: Europeans literally can't understand how fucked up the US is.
It is hard to imagine when you have a competent government.
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On May 18 2020 04:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 04:18 cLutZ wrote:On May 17 2020 23:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 17 2020 16:05 Atreides wrote:
I mean a caucus is at least as much voter suppression as id requirements. It's humorous reading this, because europeans in this thread are all on board with republican voter suppression as an established fact, but in the US the most common complaint of voter suppression is ID requirements, and as far as I have seen that is completely accepted in european systems. The problem isn't the system, it is how it is used. See also the citizenship question on the census. Is that a horrible question we shouldn't be asking? No, it is important information we should be collecting. However, one of the people involved with it died and his daughter was kind enough to release information that showed the sinister reasons behind the question. If all US states gave IDs to everyone for free then no one would have a problem with voter ID laws. You'll notice that key difference between the US and Europe. Unfortunately this is not true. All states that require an ID for voting also provide a free ID for that purpose on request. By way of example see the bottom right portion of the Indiana fee schedule here. So, we know as fee for obtaining an ID is not a good faith argument. I use Indiana because I had to cite their voter ID case recently. Indeed, usually the argument is that its way too hard for some voters to prove they are US citizens. Again, by way of example, Indiana requires: 1) Proof of Identity 2) Proof of Lawful Status 3) Social Security Number 4) 2 Documents Proving Indiana Residence Details of what you can use in the link. In practice, you basically need your birth certificate or naturalization papers from DHS, plus a tax document and one other misc document (like an electric bill). These requirements have become quite controversial. You're missing the intention of providing free IDs. If there is any person who can vote who cannot obtain voter id for any reason that is unacceptable. The ID requiring documentation that people don't have isn't any better than charging money that people can't afford. Don't get hung up on the terminology. More familiar with NC where our voter ID laws have been struck down in courts. The intention of these laws was clear that they were meant to disenfranchise voters and that is stated clearly in the courts verdict on the case.
That is a bad objection that is kind of self defeating when you look at it. There are always going to people who aren't going to be able to exercise a right in any system with security. The FFL background checks have lots of false flags where you are denied even though you 100% have the right to buy a gun. There is an appeal process, and for most people that process is much much more expensive, time consuming, and difficult than it is to obtain the required ID docs for a voter ID in even the most difficult states. That is a feature of any security system.
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On May 18 2020 13:14 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 04:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 18 2020 04:18 cLutZ wrote:On May 17 2020 23:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 17 2020 16:05 Atreides wrote:
I mean a caucus is at least as much voter suppression as id requirements. It's humorous reading this, because europeans in this thread are all on board with republican voter suppression as an established fact, but in the US the most common complaint of voter suppression is ID requirements, and as far as I have seen that is completely accepted in european systems. The problem isn't the system, it is how it is used. See also the citizenship question on the census. Is that a horrible question we shouldn't be asking? No, it is important information we should be collecting. However, one of the people involved with it died and his daughter was kind enough to release information that showed the sinister reasons behind the question. If all US states gave IDs to everyone for free then no one would have a problem with voter ID laws. You'll notice that key difference between the US and Europe. Unfortunately this is not true. All states that require an ID for voting also provide a free ID for that purpose on request. By way of example see the bottom right portion of the Indiana fee schedule here. So, we know as fee for obtaining an ID is not a good faith argument. I use Indiana because I had to cite their voter ID case recently. Indeed, usually the argument is that its way too hard for some voters to prove they are US citizens. Again, by way of example, Indiana requires: 1) Proof of Identity 2) Proof of Lawful Status 3) Social Security Number 4) 2 Documents Proving Indiana Residence Details of what you can use in the link. In practice, you basically need your birth certificate or naturalization papers from DHS, plus a tax document and one other misc document (like an electric bill). These requirements have become quite controversial. You're missing the intention of providing free IDs. If there is any person who can vote who cannot obtain voter id for any reason that is unacceptable. The ID requiring documentation that people don't have isn't any better than charging money that people can't afford. Don't get hung up on the terminology. More familiar with NC where our voter ID laws have been struck down in courts. The intention of these laws was clear that they were meant to disenfranchise voters and that is stated clearly in the courts verdict on the case. That is a bad objection that is kind of self defeating when you look at it. There are always going to people who aren't going to be able to exercise a right in any system with security. The FFL background checks have lots of false flags where you are denied even though you 100% have the right to buy a gun. There is an appeal process, and for most people that process is much much more expensive, time consuming, and difficult than it is to obtain the required ID docs for a voter ID in even the most difficult states. That is a feature of any security system.
If people whinging about everyone that can't manage to get free ID's to vote take up the banner of the same ID requirements denying citizens their second amendment rights, I'll call that a net win to be perfectly honest.
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On May 18 2020 13:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 13:14 cLutZ wrote:On May 18 2020 04:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 18 2020 04:18 cLutZ wrote:On May 17 2020 23:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 17 2020 16:05 Atreides wrote:
I mean a caucus is at least as much voter suppression as id requirements. It's humorous reading this, because europeans in this thread are all on board with republican voter suppression as an established fact, but in the US the most common complaint of voter suppression is ID requirements, and as far as I have seen that is completely accepted in european systems. The problem isn't the system, it is how it is used. See also the citizenship question on the census. Is that a horrible question we shouldn't be asking? No, it is important information we should be collecting. However, one of the people involved with it died and his daughter was kind enough to release information that showed the sinister reasons behind the question. If all US states gave IDs to everyone for free then no one would have a problem with voter ID laws. You'll notice that key difference between the US and Europe. Unfortunately this is not true. All states that require an ID for voting also provide a free ID for that purpose on request. By way of example see the bottom right portion of the Indiana fee schedule here. So, we know as fee for obtaining an ID is not a good faith argument. I use Indiana because I had to cite their voter ID case recently. Indeed, usually the argument is that its way too hard for some voters to prove they are US citizens. Again, by way of example, Indiana requires: 1) Proof of Identity 2) Proof of Lawful Status 3) Social Security Number 4) 2 Documents Proving Indiana Residence Details of what you can use in the link. In practice, you basically need your birth certificate or naturalization papers from DHS, plus a tax document and one other misc document (like an electric bill). These requirements have become quite controversial. You're missing the intention of providing free IDs. If there is any person who can vote who cannot obtain voter id for any reason that is unacceptable. The ID requiring documentation that people don't have isn't any better than charging money that people can't afford. Don't get hung up on the terminology. More familiar with NC where our voter ID laws have been struck down in courts. The intention of these laws was clear that they were meant to disenfranchise voters and that is stated clearly in the courts verdict on the case. That is a bad objection that is kind of self defeating when you look at it. There are always going to people who aren't going to be able to exercise a right in any system with security. The FFL background checks have lots of false flags where you are denied even though you 100% have the right to buy a gun. There is an appeal process, and for most people that process is much much more expensive, time consuming, and difficult than it is to obtain the required ID docs for a voter ID in even the most difficult states. That is a feature of any security system. If people whinging about everyone that can't manage to get free ID's to vote take up the banner of the same ID requirements denying citizens their second amendment rights, I'll call that a net win to be perfectly honest.
Well, my main split, I think, with voter rights advocates (today) is that from my POV they think the right to vote is important, but don't appear to think its serious. That's why I think guns are apt, they are both IMO, very important, but also very serious. Exercising the right is dangerous. Its very often pointing very big guns at people. If John McCain had won in 2008 we might very well have invaded Iran. And that's kind of a best case scenario when a militaristic person ascends to the highest office.
I think people take these things too lightly because they don't have a really deep backing to their ideas. Instead they just kind of have a few propaganda points like, "fundamental rights." Voting is important only because it is serious. And unserious demos, or voting system is no better than having an abysmal monarch.
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On May 18 2020 14:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 13:48 Danglars wrote:On May 18 2020 13:14 cLutZ wrote:On May 18 2020 04:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 18 2020 04:18 cLutZ wrote:On May 17 2020 23:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 17 2020 16:05 Atreides wrote:
I mean a caucus is at least as much voter suppression as id requirements. It's humorous reading this, because europeans in this thread are all on board with republican voter suppression as an established fact, but in the US the most common complaint of voter suppression is ID requirements, and as far as I have seen that is completely accepted in european systems. The problem isn't the system, it is how it is used. See also the citizenship question on the census. Is that a horrible question we shouldn't be asking? No, it is important information we should be collecting. However, one of the people involved with it died and his daughter was kind enough to release information that showed the sinister reasons behind the question. If all US states gave IDs to everyone for free then no one would have a problem with voter ID laws. You'll notice that key difference between the US and Europe. Unfortunately this is not true. All states that require an ID for voting also provide a free ID for that purpose on request. By way of example see the bottom right portion of the Indiana fee schedule here. So, we know as fee for obtaining an ID is not a good faith argument. I use Indiana because I had to cite their voter ID case recently. Indeed, usually the argument is that its way too hard for some voters to prove they are US citizens. Again, by way of example, Indiana requires: 1) Proof of Identity 2) Proof of Lawful Status 3) Social Security Number 4) 2 Documents Proving Indiana Residence Details of what you can use in the link. In practice, you basically need your birth certificate or naturalization papers from DHS, plus a tax document and one other misc document (like an electric bill). These requirements have become quite controversial. You're missing the intention of providing free IDs. If there is any person who can vote who cannot obtain voter id for any reason that is unacceptable. The ID requiring documentation that people don't have isn't any better than charging money that people can't afford. Don't get hung up on the terminology. More familiar with NC where our voter ID laws have been struck down in courts. The intention of these laws was clear that they were meant to disenfranchise voters and that is stated clearly in the courts verdict on the case. That is a bad objection that is kind of self defeating when you look at it. There are always going to people who aren't going to be able to exercise a right in any system with security. The FFL background checks have lots of false flags where you are denied even though you 100% have the right to buy a gun. There is an appeal process, and for most people that process is much much more expensive, time consuming, and difficult than it is to obtain the required ID docs for a voter ID in even the most difficult states. That is a feature of any security system. If people whinging about everyone that can't manage to get free ID's to vote take up the banner of the same ID requirements denying citizens their second amendment rights, I'll call that a net win to be perfectly honest. Well, my main split, I think, with voter rights advocates (today) is that from my POV they think the right to vote is important, but don't appear to think its serious. That's why I think guns are apt, they are both IMO, very important, but also very serious. Exercising the right is dangerous. Its very often pointing very big guns at people. If John McCain had won in 2008 we might very well have invaded Iran. And that's kind of a best case scenario when a militaristic person ascends to the highest office. I think people take these things too lightly because they don't have a really deep backing to their ideas. Instead they just kind of have a few propaganda points like, "fundamental rights." Voting is important only because it is serious. And unserious demos, or voting system is no better than having an abysmal monarch.
Unless you plan to kill someone, guns are not very important. I've never touched a gun of my life, nor has any of my family, and the country I have lived in have a murder rate multiple times lower than the US. So except for giving some folks a feeling of power and make them feel better about themselves, and some hypothetical home defense situations that really don't require any of the stuff people buy, I really don't see how it's comparable to, you know, the right to vote.
There is a thread for that, I suggest we move on.
The problem is not whether it's serious or not. The problem is that when you are making rules specifically to make sure that it's more unlikely your opponents voters won't be able - seriousness or not - to participate, you are actively undermining democracy. Especially when at the same time you make voting easier for your supporter, you know, for example by making their NRA card a valid voting ID.
Voting should be easy so as as many people as possible do it. Buying guns should be difficult so as as few people as possible do it. And only the right people.
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On May 18 2020 11:19 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 10:01 pmh wrote:
the argument that voter suppression is not a thing because european countries require a passport / ID card to vote doesn't really make sense.
Voter supression is not a thing imo because how hard can it be to get an ID card?
The argument that its to expensive makes little sense to me,its like 20$-30$ and it does last for years.
You need an ID to open a bank account,to do any sort of serious transaction.
Like if you want to register with a doctors practice,a library or even a gym,when you sign a rental contract,to prove your age when you go into a bar and what not. If people have trouble getting an idea the council can help you with it.
In usa i believe people get their voting ballots by mail so they must have an official adress at least. How is it difficult to get an id if you have an official adress,i honestly dont see it.
Apparently it's quite difficult for many African Americans, to the point its widely considered to have been put into place specifically to disenfranchise them.
No, apparently it's assumed to be so, but no one has ever provided data on this point. To me, it's as racist or more racist assuming blacks can't get IDs because....why? (I don't want to put words into folks mouths here)
I lived in the South for most of my life and my anecdotal experiences on this matter is that black folks aren't kind to this view of them. They're not too dumb or too poor to get an ID considering ID's are practically required in modern life to do basically anything.
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On May 18 2020 16:22 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 11:19 iamthedave wrote:On May 18 2020 10:01 pmh wrote:
the argument that voter suppression is not a thing because european countries require a passport / ID card to vote doesn't really make sense.
Voter supression is not a thing imo because how hard can it be to get an ID card?
The argument that its to expensive makes little sense to me,its like 20$-30$ and it does last for years.
You need an ID to open a bank account,to do any sort of serious transaction.
Like if you want to register with a doctors practice,a library or even a gym,when you sign a rental contract,to prove your age when you go into a bar and what not. If people have trouble getting an idea the council can help you with it.
In usa i believe people get their voting ballots by mail so they must have an official adress at least. How is it difficult to get an id if you have an official adress,i honestly dont see it.
Apparently it's quite difficult for many African Americans, to the point its widely considered to have been put into place specifically to disenfranchise them. No, apparently it's assumed to be so, but no one has ever provided data on this point. To me, it's as racist or more racist assuming blacks can't get IDs because....why? (I don't want to put words into folks mouths here) I lived in the South for most of my life and my anecdotal experiences on this matter is that black folks aren't kind to this view of them. They're not too dumb or too poor to get an ID considering ID's are practically required in modern life to do basically anything.
People should be able to apply for a government grant for an ID if they can prove they can't afford it. I'm against national ID schemes on principal but I guess in modern life you do kinda need ID anyway.
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On May 18 2020 16:22 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 11:19 iamthedave wrote:On May 18 2020 10:01 pmh wrote:
the argument that voter suppression is not a thing because european countries require a passport / ID card to vote doesn't really make sense.
Voter supression is not a thing imo because how hard can it be to get an ID card?
The argument that its to expensive makes little sense to me,its like 20$-30$ and it does last for years.
You need an ID to open a bank account,to do any sort of serious transaction.
Like if you want to register with a doctors practice,a library or even a gym,when you sign a rental contract,to prove your age when you go into a bar and what not. If people have trouble getting an idea the council can help you with it.
In usa i believe people get their voting ballots by mail so they must have an official adress at least. How is it difficult to get an id if you have an official adress,i honestly dont see it.
Apparently it's quite difficult for many African Americans, to the point its widely considered to have been put into place specifically to disenfranchise them. No, apparently it's assumed to be so, but no one has ever provided data on this point. To me, it's as racist or more racist assuming blacks can't get IDs because....why? (I don't want to put words into folks mouths here) I lived in the South for most of my life and my anecdotal experiences on this matter is that black folks aren't kind to this view of them. They're not too dumb or too poor to get an ID considering ID's are practically required in modern life to do basically anything.
Another interesting point on this was Bloomberg's huge popularity with working-class African-Americans, despite his kind of sketchy rhetorical record and law and order politics. I think there is a huge misconception on some parts of the liberal American spectrum (but it's also true in other countries), that minorities don't favour security politics.
In Germany, there was a controversy involving a German minister of the Social Democrats on television in a response to increasing theft advocating people to buy private security systems, which was essentially perceived as a sort of super woke response for affluent left-wingers in safe neighbourhoods.
Even Trump had more minority support than Romney, I think in most countries the left should recalibrate on these issues.
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On May 18 2020 17:11 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 16:22 Wegandi wrote:On May 18 2020 11:19 iamthedave wrote:On May 18 2020 10:01 pmh wrote:
the argument that voter suppression is not a thing because european countries require a passport / ID card to vote doesn't really make sense.
Voter supression is not a thing imo because how hard can it be to get an ID card?
The argument that its to expensive makes little sense to me,its like 20$-30$ and it does last for years.
You need an ID to open a bank account,to do any sort of serious transaction.
Like if you want to register with a doctors practice,a library or even a gym,when you sign a rental contract,to prove your age when you go into a bar and what not. If people have trouble getting an idea the council can help you with it.
In usa i believe people get their voting ballots by mail so they must have an official adress at least. How is it difficult to get an id if you have an official adress,i honestly dont see it.
Apparently it's quite difficult for many African Americans, to the point its widely considered to have been put into place specifically to disenfranchise them. No, apparently it's assumed to be so, but no one has ever provided data on this point. To me, it's as racist or more racist assuming blacks can't get IDs because....why? (I don't want to put words into folks mouths here) I lived in the South for most of my life and my anecdotal experiences on this matter is that black folks aren't kind to this view of them. They're not too dumb or too poor to get an ID considering ID's are practically required in modern life to do basically anything. People should be able to apply for a government grant for an ID if they can prove they can't afford it. I'm against national ID schemes on principal but I guess in modern life you do kinda need ID anyway.
I also hate national ID schemes, but I doubt there is anyone besides the homeless who can't afford 20-25$ every 8-10 years for a state ID. We have EBT, SCHIP, SSDI, and a host of other various welfare schemes for the poor. The argument that this is precluding someone from voting is not really persuasive, especially when you need IDs for vices (alchohol, tobacco, etc. which is very popular primarily in lower socio-economic rungs), banking, getting a job, traveling by plane, etc.
If we really want to talk about voter disenfranchisement allowing felons to vote should be number one priority. Like, it's not even close, but instead of fighting for this most of the effort is on voter ID stuff which is a losing proposition. In the mind of the average person (outside of progressive circles they'll think you a moron because basically everyone has an ID now-a-days) this will get you laughed out of the room.
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EPT
