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On April 10 2020 04:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 10 2020 04:02 Nyxisto wrote:On April 10 2020 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 10 2020 03:56 Nyxisto wrote:On April 09 2020 20:20 Logo wrote:On April 09 2020 17:03 Nyxisto wrote:just saw this meme circulating on the internet, and I think that's quite an important issue nobody here has addressed yet. All other issues aside the border and immigration is something that the American president has quite a lot of influence over. Not really sure how the rights of millions of immigrants are negligible. But really it's only one issue on a long list of completely vital issues that Biden and Trump have nothing in common over. Can you trust Joe Biden here? In the 90s he towed the Democratic line of being tough on immigration and made some important votes to restrict immigration. Then he was part of the Obama administration which was one of the toughest administrations on immigrants, even if it was then surpassed by Trump. False equivalency is also a strawman, not voting for Biden isn't because he's the same as Trump, it's because he returns us to the exact conditions that let Trump win in the first place. Except now you have a whole host of smarter and more extreme people who will use the same playbook with a much more frightening result. For all the rhetoric that Joe's team puts on his website you can't ignore the things that Joe Biden actually says. Always remember, "Nothing will fundamentally change" You can turn that game around and ask why should anyone else trust Sanders? Dude was going on about open borders being a Koch brothers proposal and was pretty much entirely reliant on a white disenfranchised Trump middle class in swing states to win. He sounded like him at times when he talked about Mexican workers. Obviously I think the reasonable position here is that you now can trust either one, because the base is so clearly in favour of open immigration politics that the personality doesn't much matter. Neither Biden or Sanders would be like Trump on immigration, even remotely, and so if you're in favour of protecting immigrants you need to vote for the Democratic candidate. This is pretty much true on all issues. Compared to Trump there is barely any difference. That's just not true. If you favor protecting immigrants neither candidate is acceptable. If you want the horrific treatment of immigrant children to go back to being unavoidable collateral damage (like when Obama was doing it) then you vote Democrat. Ask the immigrants with uncertain immigration status if they share that opinion. Or even better ask Bernie Sanders himself if there's no difference between Biden or Trump on immigration. That is just nuts, Willing to risk the well-being of millions of people just because of some fantasy revolution that ain't happening is malicious. Honestly, I'm quite confident I've discussed this with more immigrants in the US of varying status. Rarely have we even had to address this inane strawman about whether Trump or Biden is worse. It is immediately recognizable to them Trump and Biden are both unacceptable and that they feel powerless to do anything about it and Democrats constantly reinforce that idea. My politics is about recognizing we HAVE to rebuild the trolly, pull people off the tracks, and relay them now or the trolly is heading toward switches where every path leads off a cliff and put's most of humanity on the tracks. So lay out, in concrete details, how you would do this and actually improve society. You have about 7 months until the next election. Please explain how not voting for Biden (in a general sense, I don't care that you in particular are in a deep Blue state) translates into a long-term positive effect for these people and for people in general.
People can vote for whichever of the two child caging, racist, lying, probable rapists, etc. candidates they want. It isn't going to achieve the changes we need and forcing people into that dichotomy is acting against the interest of the most vulnerable people consistently exploited by both. That's one point.
What else/alternative do they have is another. I know you don't seriously expect me to provide a political manifesto for revolutionary change in the US by myself or in a single post. If people wanted to sincerely and in good-faith engage in that sort of conversation I'd be the first to welcome it though.
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On April 10 2020 04:13 ChristianS wrote:
My point was that my work’s instruction was not a statement of fact in the first place, and cannot be true or false.
Wat? Your claim is it doesn't matter if you said untrue things if they're just recommendations?
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On April 10 2020 03:56 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 20:20 Logo wrote:On April 09 2020 17:03 Nyxisto wrote:just saw this meme circulating on the internet, and I think that's quite an important issue nobody here has addressed yet. All other issues aside the border and immigration is something that the American president has quite a lot of influence over. Not really sure how the rights of millions of immigrants are negligible. But really it's only one issue on a long list of completely vital issues that Biden and Trump have nothing in common over. Can you trust Joe Biden here? In the 90s he towed the Democratic line of being tough on immigration and made some important votes to restrict immigration. Then he was part of the Obama administration which was one of the toughest administrations on immigrants, even if it was then surpassed by Trump. False equivalency is also a strawman, not voting for Biden isn't because he's the same as Trump, it's because he returns us to the exact conditions that let Trump win in the first place. Except now you have a whole host of smarter and more extreme people who will use the same playbook with a much more frightening result. For all the rhetoric that Joe's team puts on his website you can't ignore the things that Joe Biden actually says. Always remember, "Nothing will fundamentally change" You can turn that game around and ask why should anyone else trust Sanders? Dude was going on about open borders being a Koch brothers proposal and was pretty much entirely reliant on a white disenfranchised Trump middle class in swing states to win. He sounded like him at times when he talked about Mexican workers. Obviously I think a reasonable position here is that you now can trust either one, because the base is so clearly in favour of open immigration politics that the personality doesn't much matter. Neither Biden or Sanders would be like Trump on immigration, even remotely, and so if you're in favour of protecting immigrants you need to vote for the Democratic candidate. This is pretty much true on all issues. Compared to Trump there is barely any difference. The Democratic candidates are all on the same page on about 85% of issues and if one takes into account the realities of the American political system the policies any of them would produce wouldn't be meaningfully different.
Haven’t seen those particular quotes you’re referring to, I’m a bit skeptical of the right on immigration. Seems they both want to talk the talk and scapegoat migrants while not actually doing anything to stop the flow of cheap labour.
I think you’re right that the left is almost overwhelmingly open borders though, for whatever reason. Not a particular fan myself, the ‘moving for a better life’ argument rather than tackling any of the global inequities that necessitate said movement in the first place.
Not to mention what negative externalities that are caused by migration are almost wholly borne by the working class too.
For the record I am not anti-migration at all but ‘all migration is good’ seems to be a binding doctrine these days amongst the left and I really don’t get why it’s so firmly ensconced.
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People can vote for whichever of the two child caging, racist, lying, probable rapists, etc. candidates they want. It isn't going to achieve the changes we need and forcing people into that dichotomy is acting against the interest of the most vulnerable people consistently exploited by both. That's one point.
Pretty much everyone here is in agreement that voting for either of these two won't fix the systemic problems that we have in this country.
As I mentioned, you aren't being forced into this dichotomy by Democrats trying to keep Trump from being re-elected. You're being forced into it by the system itself. Trying to blame Democrats alone for this is a glaring bias of yours. and it comes across as hypocritical when compared to most of your arguments concerning other topics.
What else/alternative do they have is another. I know you don't seriously expect me to provide a political manifesto for revolutionary change in the US by myself or in a single post. If people wanted to sincerely and in good-faith engage in that sort of conversation I'd be the first to welcome it though.
I actually do expect you to lay out how not voting for Biden 1) contributes to an overall improvement in society for everyone around you (including the poor, vulnerable, POC, etc.) and 2) is therefore ethically acceptable.
If you can't make a clear and concise post explaining those two points, that's your failure and your failure alone. You shouldn't need a political manifesto for that, and this is something I've been telling you for months. Clear and concise writing to express ideas is a skill needed in most professional fields. It isn't that hard.
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On April 10 2020 03:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 03:51 ChristianS wrote:On April 10 2020 03:49 Logo wrote:On April 10 2020 03:41 JimmiC wrote:
There has been about 3 people explain that Biden didn't lie, so no point me going over it again, it just goes to furthering the point that you are starting with an answer and looking for excuses for it to be true. I'm not starting with an answer, I can read statements myself and see that it's a lie. The arguments here aren't actual arguments. The arguments were: "It's as much risk as going to the grocery store" - You should avoid the grocery store as much as you can, and ideally people would only be visiting the grocery store once or twice a month if they're able to. Saying it's as much risk as going to the grocery store is exactly the point, it's that much risk and taking on that risk is bad. "My work told me the same thing" - Your work is exploiting you and risking your health, or at least deems the risk necessary for some greater purpose. Those aren't actual arguments, they're just trying to hand wave away the risk you were asked to bear. Why do you use quotation marks if it’s not what I actually said? We really should have a symbol for paraphrased quotes, cause maaaan. Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 03:51 TheYango wrote:On April 10 2020 03:44 GreenHorizons wrote:
"not voting" isn't and hasn't been presented as the alternative by myself or people I'm aware of as the "derailing' option. The mass direct action is the derailing and the people not contributing to it are the ones pushing the trolly toward the switch fmp. So what stops you from both voting for the less shitty option AND contributing to mass direct action? How are these an either-or here? I'm unclear on how "fight to change the system while not participating in the system" is better than "fight to change the system while acting within the system to get the less shitty option so that you're less fucked when you make no progress because people continue to do nothing to help you", other than being able to retain a snide sense of moral superiority. My vote doesn't matter. The question you're asking is a fundamental one about striking/mass organizing that Democrats used to be on my side of.
Well unfortunately I live in PA, so mine does.
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On April 10 2020 04:22 Wombat_NI wrote:
For the record I am not anti-migration at all but ‘all migration is good’ seems to be a binding doctrine these days amongst the left and I really don’t get why it’s so firmly ensconced.
I don't think it should be a controversial issue. From a humanist tradition, there isn't really any good reason to prevent people from moving somewhere else and seeking a better life and better opportunity. There is a very easy consensus you can make from the left, to liberals, to libertarians and conventional economists on why both ethically and economically open borders are an unambiguous good.
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On April 10 2020 04:28 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
People can vote for whichever of the two child caging, racist, lying, probable rapists, etc. candidates they want. It isn't going to achieve the changes we need and forcing people into that dichotomy is acting against the interest of the most vulnerable people consistently exploited by both. That's one point.
Pretty much everyone here is in agreement that voting for either of these two won't fix the systemic problems that we have in this country.
then they never need ponder how Republicans rationalize voting for someone like Trump again
As I mentioned, you aren't being forced into this dichotomy by Democrats trying to keep Trump from being re-elected. You're being forced into it by the system itself. Trying to blame Democrats alone for this is a glaring bias of yours. Show nested quote +
What else/alternative do they have is another. I know you don't seriously expect me to provide a political manifesto for revolutionary change in the US by myself or in a single post. If people wanted to sincerely and in good-faith engage in that sort of conversation I'd be the first to welcome it though.
I actually do expect you to lay out how not voting for Biden 1) contributes to an overall improvement in society for everyone around you (including the poor, vulnerable, POC, etc.) and 2) is therefore ethically acceptable. If you can't make a clear and concise post explaining those two points, that's your failure and your failure alone. You shouldn't need a political manifesto for that, and this is something I've been telling you for months. Clear and concise writing to express ideas is a skill needed in most professional fields. It isn't that hard.
I'm not exclusively blaming Democrats?
People have pointed out already how Biden's outcome can influence people's perceptions about the need to move left politically so I don't see a reason to go over that again. Anita Hill has a perfectly ethical case to not vote for Biden or Trump as one example (she may or may not make it or keep her vote to herself).
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On April 10 2020 04:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 10 2020 04:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 10 2020 04:02 Nyxisto wrote:On April 10 2020 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 10 2020 03:56 Nyxisto wrote:On April 09 2020 20:20 Logo wrote:On April 09 2020 17:03 Nyxisto wrote:just saw this meme circulating on the internet, and I think that's quite an important issue nobody here has addressed yet. All other issues aside the border and immigration is something that the American president has quite a lot of influence over. Not really sure how the rights of millions of immigrants are negligible. But really it's only one issue on a long list of completely vital issues that Biden and Trump have nothing in common over. Can you trust Joe Biden here? In the 90s he towed the Democratic line of being tough on immigration and made some important votes to restrict immigration. Then he was part of the Obama administration which was one of the toughest administrations on immigrants, even if it was then surpassed by Trump. False equivalency is also a strawman, not voting for Biden isn't because he's the same as Trump, it's because he returns us to the exact conditions that let Trump win in the first place. Except now you have a whole host of smarter and more extreme people who will use the same playbook with a much more frightening result. For all the rhetoric that Joe's team puts on his website you can't ignore the things that Joe Biden actually says. Always remember, "Nothing will fundamentally change" You can turn that game around and ask why should anyone else trust Sanders? Dude was going on about open borders being a Koch brothers proposal and was pretty much entirely reliant on a white disenfranchised Trump middle class in swing states to win. He sounded like him at times when he talked about Mexican workers. Obviously I think the reasonable position here is that you now can trust either one, because the base is so clearly in favour of open immigration politics that the personality doesn't much matter. Neither Biden or Sanders would be like Trump on immigration, even remotely, and so if you're in favour of protecting immigrants you need to vote for the Democratic candidate. This is pretty much true on all issues. Compared to Trump there is barely any difference. That's just not true. If you favor protecting immigrants neither candidate is acceptable. If you want the horrific treatment of immigrant children to go back to being unavoidable collateral damage (like when Obama was doing it) then you vote Democrat. Ask the immigrants with uncertain immigration status if they share that opinion. Or even better ask Bernie Sanders himself if there's no difference between Biden or Trump on immigration. That is just nuts, Willing to risk the well-being of millions of people just because of some fantasy revolution that ain't happening is malicious. Honestly, I'm quite confident I've discussed this with more immigrants in the US of varying status. Rarely have we even had to address this inane strawman about whether Trump or Biden is worse. It is immediately recognizable to them Trump and Biden are both unacceptable and that they feel powerless to do anything about it and Democrats constantly reinforce that idea. My politics is about recognizing we HAVE to rebuild the trolly, pull people off the tracks, and relay them now or the trolly is heading toward switches where every path leads off a cliff and put's most of humanity on the tracks. So lay out, in concrete details, how you would do this and actually improve society. You have about 7 months until the next election. Please explain how not voting for Biden (in a general sense, I don't care that you in particular are in a deep Blue state) translates into a long-term positive effect for these people and for people in general. People can vote for whichever of the two child caging, racist, lying, probable rapists, etc. candidates they want. It isn't going to achieve the changes we need and forcing people into that dichotomy is acting against the interest of the most vulnerable people consistently exploited by both. That's one point. What else/alternative do they have is another. I know you don't seriously expect me to provide a political manifesto for revolutionary change in the US by myself or in a single post. If people wanted to sincerely and in good-faith engage in that sort of conversation I'd be the first to welcome it though.
Hey man speak for yourself, show some ambition dagnabbit.
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On April 10 2020 04:20 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:13 ChristianS wrote:
My point was that my work’s instruction was not a statement of fact in the first place, and cannot be true or false. Wat? Your claim is it doesn't matter if you said untrue things if they're just recommendations?
No, my point is that an imperative statement like “go vote” or “come to work” cannot be true or false, because no factual claim has been made.
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On April 10 2020 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:28 Stratos_speAr wrote:
People can vote for whichever of the two child caging, racist, lying, probable rapists, etc. candidates they want. It isn't going to achieve the changes we need and forcing people into that dichotomy is acting against the interest of the most vulnerable people consistently exploited by both. That's one point.
Pretty much everyone here is in agreement that voting for either of these two won't fix the systemic problems that we have in this country. then they never need ponder how Republicans rationalize voting for someone like Trump again Show nested quote +As I mentioned, you aren't being forced into this dichotomy by Democrats trying to keep Trump from being re-elected. You're being forced into it by the system itself. Trying to blame Democrats alone for this is a glaring bias of yours.
What else/alternative do they have is another. I know you don't seriously expect me to provide a political manifesto for revolutionary change in the US by myself or in a single post. If people wanted to sincerely and in good-faith engage in that sort of conversation I'd be the first to welcome it though.
I actually do expect you to lay out how not voting for Biden 1) contributes to an overall improvement in society for everyone around you (including the poor, vulnerable, POC, etc.) and 2) is therefore ethically acceptable. If you can't make a clear and concise post explaining those two points, that's your failure and your failure alone. You shouldn't need a political manifesto for that, and this is something I've been telling you for months. Clear and concise writing to express ideas is a skill needed in most professional fields. It isn't that hard. I'm not exclusively blaming Democrats? People have pointed out already how Biden's outcome can influence people's perceptions about the need to move left politically so I don't see a reason to go over that again. Anita Hill has a perfectly ethical case to not vote for Biden or Trump as one example (she may or may not make it or keep her vote to herself).
So you're relying on a completely unfounded fantasy where Biden losing forces the Democratic party to the left.
Never mind the fact that this is exactly what you and others wanted in 2016 and Bernie did even worse this primary than he did the last one.
And I was really hoping there was more substance to your opinions than just wanting to be condescending and arrogant.
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Yes, Bernie lost. We get it. If you need chemotherapy, you don't "compromise" and take 1/10th of the dose for 10x the duration. The people who are for Bernie (and not even necessarily him, just somebody progressive) feel that immediate changes are needed and a hypothetical Biden presidency will willfully accomplish next to nothing. Whether a Republican controlled senate would let any changes through is another matter entirely. I would rather see a progressive president try and fail than a "moderate" president give concession after concession to Republicans and end us up in a worse spot than we were before.
EDIT: "Being better than Trump" is not something I consider as an accomplishment.
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On April 10 2020 04:48 mierin wrote:
Yes, Bernie lost. We get it. If you need chemotherapy, you don't "compromise" and take 1/10th of the dose for 10x the duration. The people who are for Bernie (and not even necessarily him, just somebody progressive) feel that immediate changes are needed and a hypothetical Biden presidency will willfully accomplish next to nothing. Whether a Republican controlled senate would let any changes through is another matter entirely. I would rather see a progressive president try and fail than a "moderate" president give concession after concession to Republicans and end us up in a worse spot than we were before.
EDIT: "Being better than Trump" is not something I consider as an accomplishment.
That's the weirdest line of reasoning I have read in a long time. The question your country asks you, as a citizen is, do you want Biden or Trump as 46th president of the United States? Period.
If you are a rational person and think that in the long term, four more years of Trump will be better for the country than four years of Biden, or that it will make no difference, don't vote.
Hope that you get another chance to vote at all.
Oh and by the way, political scorched earth policy has suuuuch a good record in history. Let the fascists win, that will teach those moderates...
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On April 10 2020 04:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 10 2020 04:28 Stratos_speAr wrote:
People can vote for whichever of the two child caging, racist, lying, probable rapists, etc. candidates they want. It isn't going to achieve the changes we need and forcing people into that dichotomy is acting against the interest of the most vulnerable people consistently exploited by both. That's one point.
Pretty much everyone here is in agreement that voting for either of these two won't fix the systemic problems that we have in this country. then they never need ponder how Republicans rationalize voting for someone like Trump again As I mentioned, you aren't being forced into this dichotomy by Democrats trying to keep Trump from being re-elected. You're being forced into it by the system itself. Trying to blame Democrats alone for this is a glaring bias of yours.
What else/alternative do they have is another. I know you don't seriously expect me to provide a political manifesto for revolutionary change in the US by myself or in a single post. If people wanted to sincerely and in good-faith engage in that sort of conversation I'd be the first to welcome it though.
I actually do expect you to lay out how not voting for Biden 1) contributes to an overall improvement in society for everyone around you (including the poor, vulnerable, POC, etc.) and 2) is therefore ethically acceptable. If you can't make a clear and concise post explaining those two points, that's your failure and your failure alone. You shouldn't need a political manifesto for that, and this is something I've been telling you for months. Clear and concise writing to express ideas is a skill needed in most professional fields. It isn't that hard. I'm not exclusively blaming Democrats? People have pointed out already how Biden's outcome can influence people's perceptions about the need to move left politically so I don't see a reason to go over that again. Anita Hill has a perfectly ethical case to not vote for Biden or Trump as one example (she may or may not make it or keep her vote to herself). So you're relying on a completely unfounded fantasy where Biden losing forces the Democratic party to the left. + Show Spoiler +Never mind the fact that this is exactly what you and others wanted in 2016 and Bernie did even worse this primary than he did the last one.
And I was really hoping there was more substance to your opinions than just wanting to be condescending and arrogant.
Certainly not. I just think it's clear that whether Biden wins or loses has impacted people's conclusions about the viability/support of centrism in the primary and will in a general (how exactly and the magnitude is a debate I'm not interested in atm).
Did I at least satisfy your request of an ethical argument not to vote for Biden in a clear and concise way? Or would you insist Anita Hill would be unethical if she refused to vote for Biden?
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On April 10 2020 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:22 Wombat_NI wrote:
For the record I am not anti-migration at all but ‘all migration is good’ seems to be a binding doctrine these days amongst the left and I really don’t get why it’s so firmly ensconced. I don't think it should be a controversial issue. From a humanist tradition, there isn't really any good reason to prevent people from moving somewhere else and seeking a better life and better opportunity. There is a very easy consensus you can make from the left, to liberals, to libertarians and conventional economists on why both ethically and economically open borders are an unambiguous good.
What does ethically open refer to in this context?
Sure in say, the European context when it’s people choosing to move of their own volition from relatively economically similar nations, for wanting to pursue certain economic opportunities or for cultural reasons, don’t see any issues with those kind of scenarios.
And no I’m not against it for individuals either, but to take one example, Mexican immigration for a better life is good because Mexico is in bad shape, without considering or tackling why Mexico is in bad shape is just avoiding giant elephants in the room.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On April 10 2020 04:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 10 2020 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 10 2020 04:28 Stratos_speAr wrote:
People can vote for whichever of the two child caging, racist, lying, probable rapists, etc. candidates they want. It isn't going to achieve the changes we need and forcing people into that dichotomy is acting against the interest of the most vulnerable people consistently exploited by both. That's one point.
Pretty much everyone here is in agreement that voting for either of these two won't fix the systemic problems that we have in this country. then they never need ponder how Republicans rationalize voting for someone like Trump again As I mentioned, you aren't being forced into this dichotomy by Democrats trying to keep Trump from being re-elected. You're being forced into it by the system itself. Trying to blame Democrats alone for this is a glaring bias of yours.
What else/alternative do they have is another. I know you don't seriously expect me to provide a political manifesto for revolutionary change in the US by myself or in a single post. If people wanted to sincerely and in good-faith engage in that sort of conversation I'd be the first to welcome it though.
I actually do expect you to lay out how not voting for Biden 1) contributes to an overall improvement in society for everyone around you (including the poor, vulnerable, POC, etc.) and 2) is therefore ethically acceptable. If you can't make a clear and concise post explaining those two points, that's your failure and your failure alone. You shouldn't need a political manifesto for that, and this is something I've been telling you for months. Clear and concise writing to express ideas is a skill needed in most professional fields. It isn't that hard. I'm not exclusively blaming Democrats? People have pointed out already how Biden's outcome can influence people's perceptions about the need to move left politically so I don't see a reason to go over that again. Anita Hill has a perfectly ethical case to not vote for Biden or Trump as one example (she may or may not make it or keep her vote to herself). So you're relying on a completely unfounded fantasy where Biden losing forces the Democratic party to the left. + Show Spoiler +Never mind the fact that this is exactly what you and others wanted in 2016 and Bernie did even worse this primary than he did the last one.
And I was really hoping there was more substance to your opinions than just wanting to be condescending and arrogant. Certainly not. I just think it's clear that whether Biden wins or loses has impacted people's conclusions about the viability/support of centrism in the primary and will in a general (how exactly and the magnitude is a debate I'm not interested in atm). Did I at least satisfy your request of an ethical argument not to vote for Biden in a clear and concise way? Or would you insist Anita Hill would be unethical if she refused to vote for Biden?
It’s so beyond parody that it’s almost certainly going to happen, Anita Hill doing a ‘I’m voting Biden’ vote.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On April 10 2020 04:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:48 mierin wrote:
Yes, Bernie lost. We get it. If you need chemotherapy, you don't "compromise" and take 1/10th of the dose for 10x the duration. The people who are for Bernie (and not even necessarily him, just somebody progressive) feel that immediate changes are needed and a hypothetical Biden presidency will willfully accomplish next to nothing. Whether a Republican controlled senate would let any changes through is another matter entirely. I would rather see a progressive president try and fail than a "moderate" president give concession after concession to Republicans and end us up in a worse spot than we were before.
EDIT: "Being better than Trump" is not something I consider as an accomplishment. That's the weirdest line of reasoning I have read in a long time. The question your country asks you, as a citizen is, do you want Biden or Trump as 46th president of the United States? Period. If you are a rational person and think that in the long term, four more years of Trump will be better for the country than four years of Biden, or that it will make no difference, don't vote. Hope that you get another chance to vote at all. Oh and by the way, political scorched earth policy has suuuuch a good record in history. Let the fascists win, that will teach those moderates...
Historically the ostensible ‘centre’ gave Fascists concessions in the hope they would be placated, and were rather less forthcoming to the left. Which absolutely worked well.
Nobody can predict the future, I think it’s fair to predict Biden would be better over a 4 year period. I guess the calculus people are trying to predict is a 20 years of Biden/Trump clones vs 4 years of Trump vs a Democratic Party that changes tack to some degree after 2 consecutive failures of status quo candidates.
Which obviously gets harder and harder to predict and I personally don’t think is likely to happen. We’ve had Brexit and Trump’s first term already and we’re seeing largely the same strategy being employed by the centre left.
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On April 10 2020 05:14 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 10 2020 04:48 mierin wrote:
Yes, Bernie lost. We get it. If you need chemotherapy, you don't "compromise" and take 1/10th of the dose for 10x the duration. The people who are for Bernie (and not even necessarily him, just somebody progressive) feel that immediate changes are needed and a hypothetical Biden presidency will willfully accomplish next to nothing. Whether a Republican controlled senate would let any changes through is another matter entirely. I would rather see a progressive president try and fail than a "moderate" president give concession after concession to Republicans and end us up in a worse spot than we were before.
EDIT: "Being better than Trump" is not something I consider as an accomplishment. That's the weirdest line of reasoning I have read in a long time. The question your country asks you, as a citizen is, do you want Biden or Trump as 46th president of the United States? Period. If you are a rational person and think that in the long term, four more years of Trump will be better for the country than four years of Biden, or that it will make no difference, don't vote. Hope that you get another chance to vote at all. Oh and by the way, political scorched earth policy has suuuuch a good record in history. Let the fascists win, that will teach those moderates... Historically the ostensible ‘centre’ gave Fascists concessions in the hope they would be placated, and were rather less forthcoming to the left. Which absolutely worked well. Nobody can predict the future, I think it’s fair to predict Biden would be better over a 4 year period. I guess the calculus people are trying to predict is a 20 years of Biden/Trump clones vs 4 years of Trump vs a Democratic Party that changes tack to some degree after 2 consecutive failures of status quo candidates. Which obviously gets harder and harder to predict and I personally don’t think is likely to happen. We’ve had Brexit and Trump’s first term already and we’re seeing largely the same strategy being employed by the centre left.
The bolded is exactly what I'm talking about. Even though I cynically don't think it's going to happen. If I knew for a fact that a real progressive would be elected in 2024 I could be persuaded to vote for Trump vs. the prospect of a long line of Biden-esque candidates.
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On April 10 2020 05:05 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 04:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 10 2020 04:43 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 10 2020 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 10 2020 04:28 Stratos_speAr wrote:
People can vote for whichever of the two child caging, racist, lying, probable rapists, etc. candidates they want. It isn't going to achieve the changes we need and forcing people into that dichotomy is acting against the interest of the most vulnerable people consistently exploited by both. That's one point.
Pretty much everyone here is in agreement that voting for either of these two won't fix the systemic problems that we have in this country. then they never need ponder how Republicans rationalize voting for someone like Trump again As I mentioned, you aren't being forced into this dichotomy by Democrats trying to keep Trump from being re-elected. You're being forced into it by the system itself. Trying to blame Democrats alone for this is a glaring bias of yours.
What else/alternative do they have is another. I know you don't seriously expect me to provide a political manifesto for revolutionary change in the US by myself or in a single post. If people wanted to sincerely and in good-faith engage in that sort of conversation I'd be the first to welcome it though.
I actually do expect you to lay out how not voting for Biden 1) contributes to an overall improvement in society for everyone around you (including the poor, vulnerable, POC, etc.) and 2) is therefore ethically acceptable. If you can't make a clear and concise post explaining those two points, that's your failure and your failure alone. You shouldn't need a political manifesto for that, and this is something I've been telling you for months. Clear and concise writing to express ideas is a skill needed in most professional fields. It isn't that hard. I'm not exclusively blaming Democrats? People have pointed out already how Biden's outcome can influence people's perceptions about the need to move left politically so I don't see a reason to go over that again. Anita Hill has a perfectly ethical case to not vote for Biden or Trump as one example (she may or may not make it or keep her vote to herself). So you're relying on a completely unfounded fantasy where Biden losing forces the Democratic party to the left. + Show Spoiler +Never mind the fact that this is exactly what you and others wanted in 2016 and Bernie did even worse this primary than he did the last one.
And I was really hoping there was more substance to your opinions than just wanting to be condescending and arrogant. Certainly not. I just think it's clear that whether Biden wins or loses has impacted people's conclusions about the viability/support of centrism in the primary and will in a general (how exactly and the magnitude is a debate I'm not interested in atm). Did I at least satisfy your request of an ethical argument not to vote for Biden in a clear and concise way? Or would you insist Anita Hill would be unethical if she refused to vote for Biden? It’s so beyond parody that it’s almost certainly going to happen, Anita Hill doing a ‘I’m voting Biden’ vote.
I mean I feel like everyone is relatively familiar with how twisted it all is, but perhaps it's too pedantic and the concept of telling Tara Reade that her only ethical choice is to vote for the guy she credibly accuses of raping her is more visceral?
I don't know. Doesn't seem to matter how I put it sometimes. There's countless stories that aren't quite as directly connected between Joe Biden himself and a voter but the same thing is happening. I get why people far away from that experience and people with it see it differently. What I find to be a struggle is how people refuse to recognize their perspective and insist the only moral and rational course is to continue voting against their own interests no matter how personally horrific the consequences combined with their frequent confusion at how Republicans do it.
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Northern Ireland27360 Posts
On April 10 2020 05:21 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2020 05:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 10 2020 04:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 10 2020 04:48 mierin wrote:
Yes, Bernie lost. We get it. If you need chemotherapy, you don't "compromise" and take 1/10th of the dose for 10x the duration. The people who are for Bernie (and not even necessarily him, just somebody progressive) feel that immediate changes are needed and a hypothetical Biden presidency will willfully accomplish next to nothing. Whether a Republican controlled senate would let any changes through is another matter entirely. I would rather see a progressive president try and fail than a "moderate" president give concession after concession to Republicans and end us up in a worse spot than we were before.
EDIT: "Being better than Trump" is not something I consider as an accomplishment. That's the weirdest line of reasoning I have read in a long time. The question your country asks you, as a citizen is, do you want Biden or Trump as 46th president of the United States? Period. If you are a rational person and think that in the long term, four more years of Trump will be better for the country than four years of Biden, or that it will make no difference, don't vote. Hope that you get another chance to vote at all. Oh and by the way, political scorched earth policy has suuuuch a good record in history. Let the fascists win, that will teach those moderates... Historically the ostensible ‘centre’ gave Fascists concessions in the hope they would be placated, and were rather less forthcoming to the left. Which absolutely worked well. Nobody can predict the future, I think it’s fair to predict Biden would be better over a 4 year period. I guess the calculus people are trying to predict is a 20 years of Biden/Trump clones vs 4 years of Trump vs a Democratic Party that changes tack to some degree after 2 consecutive failures of status quo candidates. Which obviously gets harder and harder to predict and I personally don’t think is likely to happen. We’ve had Brexit and Trump’s first term already and we’re seeing largely the same strategy being employed by the centre left. The bolded is exactly what I'm talking about. Even though I cynically don't think it's going to happen. If I knew for a fact that a real progressive would be elected in 2024 I could be persuaded to vote for Trump vs. the prospect of a long line of Biden-esque candidates.
I’d absolutely take that trade if time travellers fed me some information, but yeah it’s difficult to predict.
What’s the worst Trump can feasibly do in 4 years?
Quite a damn fucking lot, but some of the ideas of him going full dictator are fanciful when you look at who’s saying them.
It’s ‘the system works, stick to the system don’t deviate from the system’ types. I mean if your system can’t stop Donald Trump from becoming a pseudo-fascist dictator then it’s not a particularly robust system is it?
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