EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2213
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12318 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On March 27 2020 03:42 Elroi wrote: You don't need to go all the way to Bernie, though, I don't think GH would have believed those allegations if they were against Fidel Castro. It's not being a Bernie Bro, it's the fact that I'm almost sure the VAST majority of current Biden supporters believed the allegations against Kavanaugh with a similar level of evidence as well. Personally even though I'm far to the left of most of them I never got on board the crucify Kavanaugh train over them. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JohnDelaney
Ireland73 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23445 Posts
The Intercept had a piece about it a couple days ago for people that prefer text TIME’S UP SAID IT COULD NOT FUND A #METOO ALLEGATION AGAINST JOE BIDEN, CITING ITS NONPROFIT STATUS AND HIS PRESIDENTIAL RUN (that's the headline).I don't know how many people that are expressing skepticism at the validity of her recounting have heard/seen her tell it but I recommend they do. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25964 Posts
On March 27 2020 05:47 JimmiC wrote: There was actually a lot more evidence, these are not comparable. However if she wants to come in front of the senate and have everyone dig into the story and then Biden lies repeatedly about things, it would be similar and I think it would be a similar reaction by Dems. Right now it is a story that is so unchecked it is not good info for fox news, or even info wars. breibart. If it picks up steam and becomes an actual legitimate story, and I'm sure there is enough money, time and so on willing to be invested to take down Biden, if there is anything it will likely come out. But it would have likely come out when he was VP as well. You will also remember that when the Bernie is a sexist thing came out, the reaction was the same by almost everyone on that regularly posts on the thread. Well everyone but GH, who wholeheartedly instantly believes this one and insults others for not, and completed discounted the other story. Outside of serial offenders where a series of independent accusers have similar stories, or where some documentary evidence is present these accusations are by their nature extremely difficult to prove and people’s biases come in. In this respect weirdly touching people’s faces really doesn’t help old Joe | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
Now in 2020, I've seen some of the same Republican talking heads mention how "this is the Chinese government's fault", only to have others say "a lot of governments messed this up" as a rebuttal. Just a funny little thing I've noticed, and an interesting turn of events. Politics is like an ever-evolving theater sometimes | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23445 Posts
On March 27 2020 08:32 Wombat_NI wrote: Outside of serial offenders where a series of independent accusers have similar stories, or where some documentary evidence is present these accusations are by their nature extremely difficult to prove and people’s biases come in. In this respect weirdly touching people’s faces really doesn’t help old Joe Lots of accounts/video/photo's of him touching more than faces inappropriately. NBC put together a short compilation back in April from his mock swear-ins where he knows there's mics, and cameras. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35160 Posts
On March 27 2020 05:47 JimmiC wrote: There was actually a lot more evidence, these are not comparable. However if she wants to come in front of the senate and have everyone dig into the story and then Biden lies repeatedly about things, it would be similar and I think it would be a similar reaction by Dems. Right now it is a story that is so unchecked it is not good info for fox news, or even info wars. breibart. If it picks up steam and becomes an actual legitimate story, and I'm sure there is enough money, time and so on willing to be invested to take down Biden, if there is anything it will likely come out. But it would have likely come out when he was VP as well. You will also remember that when the Bernie is a sexist thing came out, the reaction was the same by almost everyone on that regularly posts on the thread. Well everyone but GH, who wholeheartedly instantly believes this one and insults others for not, and completed discounted the other story. A rape accusation and a "he might have said a mean thing" are very different. | ||
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farvacola
United States18835 Posts
On March 27 2020 08:51 Bagration wrote: I noticed something mildly interesting the other day. Several years back, when the Black Lives Matter movement was in the headlines, some Republican commentators would reply "All lives matter" to downplay the issue. Now in 2020, I've seen some of the same Republican talking heads mention how "this is the Chinese government's fault", only to have others say "a lot of governments messed this up" as a rebuttal. Just a funny little thing I've noticed, and an interesting turn of events. Politics is like an ever-evolving theater sometimes Seems to me that the differences between being black in America and being the Chinese government are sufficiently different from another to render that comparison odd. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On March 27 2020 09:07 farvacola wrote: Seems to me that the differences between being black in America and being the Chinese government are sufficiently different from another to render that comparison odd. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not making any statements on the positions themselves, just found the similar rhetorical logic interesting. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
On March 27 2020 04:30 Nebuchad wrote: I think opposition to populism as a leftist is ideologically conflicting, and that opposition being perceived as somewhat standard and not something that needs to be explained is definitely something that we have neoliberalism to thank for. Populism simply means that one pretends to be, or to exclusively represent the "real" people (against the cosmopolitan jews, the kulaks, the out of touch elites, the foreigners, the oligarchy, the establishment and so on). You can find it right, left and centre. My biggest problem with Bernie was actually the populist undertone of some of his campaign. I had a discussion recently with a friend who voted for him she argued that the people supported him. When I mentioned that actually, the numbers suggested that the people seemed to rather support Biden, her answer was to quote the Manufacture of Consent by Noam Chomsky. As if you could only support this establishment candidate if you were manipulated by this establishment media, and that people supporting Biden were either not "real" people or didn't have a "real" opinion. | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
I don't agree that everyone who is against Bernie has been brainwashed, but I think it's impossible to deny that many voters are less informed than they could be and vote for irrational reasons (because the brain is inherently emotional while simultaneously very good at rationalizing its emotions). And that people take advantage of that--marketing exists and is effective for a reason, there's no reason why political elections would be somehow immune. The stunt at the last debate where Biden declared he would have a female VP and the MSM running with that as the headline is a good example of this. What does the gender of Biden's VP have to do with how effective a president he'll be? Next to nothing, but there are a lot of people out there where that's their #1 priority and are now going to support Biden for it. Heck, you can see it even worked on the people on this forum since the 2020 Democratic Nominee thread got sucked into an argument over it because the right wing people here fall for the same crap. That sort of tactic obfuscates anything of substance that went on in that debate. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4937 Posts
On March 27 2020 11:41 Bagration wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 27 2020 09:07 farvacola wrote: Seems to me that the differences between being black in America and being the Chinese government are sufficiently different from another to render that comparison odd. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not making any statements on the positions themselves, just found the similar rhetorical logic interesting. It's not because they are superficially comparable that they are comparable. Just because an apple could kind of look like an orange from the right angle in specific lighting doesn't mean you can note any comparison. The rhetoric stems from totally different fundamental belief systems. In the one case there's a political body downplaying human rights by diverting the pointed fingers (PoE to themselves). In the other case there's a political body downplaying human rights by pointing fingers (the big Chinese threat). Huh.. seems like they've got more in common than initially thought. They're racist in both cases. But on a more serious note, putting the blame on a country for originating the virus is just childish and unproductive. If anything this is an incentive for globalized teamwork and showing we can actually work together really really well if we want/need to. | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
On March 27 2020 18:03 TomatoBisque wrote: I don't agree that everyone who is against Bernie has been brainwashed, but I think it's impossible to deny that many voters are less informed than they could be and vote for irrational reasons (because the brain is inherently emotional while simultaneously very good at rationalizing its emotions). I think you'll find uninformed voters within all voter groups. Serious question: is there evidence that one side in the US has on average more informed voters? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44993 Posts
On March 27 2020 20:50 Sr18 wrote: I think you'll find uninformed voters within all voter groups. Serious question: is there evidence that one side in the US has on average more informed voters? Yep; there is a decent correlation (not causation) between where you get your news and how informed you are. On average, Fox News viewers are less informed than people who don't watch any news at all, who are in turn less informed than mainstream moderate/ liberal media news sources. There have been several studies on this. Here's one: https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2012/survey-nprs-listeners-best-informed-fox-news-viewers-worst-informed/ Here's another one: http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2011/knowless/ More information: https://www.businessinsider.com/study-watching-fox-news-makes-you-less-informed-than-watching-no-news-at-all-2012-5 This shouldn't be particularly surprising, considering that Republicans, pound-for-pound, assert more misinformation, lies, anti-education, and anti-science than Democrats do. That's not to say that all Republicans do this on purpose, or that all Democrats are better informed than all Republicans, or that Democrats don't lie or engage in conspiracy theories or are wrong on many, many occasions, but if we're talking about "on average", as you indicated, there is indeed a distinction. This predates Donald Trump as well, although obviously he's the quintessential example of this. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7917 Posts
Populism is when Maduro paints his opponents as enemy of the people guided by foreign powers. Or when Trump supporters oppose the real Americans, white, working class midwest folks against the "globalists", costal "elites" and minorities, all not-so-real people. And populism is, sorry, when your candidate represents the american people, but your opponents represent "the establishment". And when the numbers are not in your favour, you call the game rigged and you declare the other side illegitimate. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23445 Posts
On March 27 2020 21:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: That's not really my point though. People vote for all kind of reasons, rational and irrational, well or ill-informed. They are lied to, or told the truth on various degree. That has little to do with populism. Populism is when Maduro paints his opponents as enemy of the people guided by foreign powers. Or when Trump supporters oppose the real american, white, working class midwest folks against the "globalists", costal "elites" and minorities, all not-so-real people. And populism is, sorry, when your candidate represents the american people, but your opponents represent "the establishment". And when the numbers are not in your favour, you call the game rigged and you declare the other side illegitimate. The description you give of populism can just as easily be applied to the Russia bot/interference/Berniebro narratives and the Democratic party. | ||
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