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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On February 26 2020 05:09 Mohdoo wrote:
Under no circumstances will I support a candidate that accepts money from billionaires or super pacs. I believe the only way to fix our political system is to get money out of politics. Can't do that when you actively participate. I am not "Bernie or bust". I am "actually get money out of politics or bust".
Warren was an acceptable second place until she cited sexism as her reason for accepting super pacs. She is 0% acceptable to me now. The super pacs alone brought her down to 0%. The sexism just showed she's been a phony the whole time.
I've got bad news for you.
Bernie has this thing called "Our Revolution". It's a non-profit that takes in dark money and aids his campaign. It is likely in violation of campaign finance laws. I'll just post the ap news link.
https://apnews.com/345bbd1af529cfb1e41305fa3ab1e604
Their defense is that, "We invest our money ... in things like organizing and phone banks and canvassing voters on issues that matter. We aren’t running ads or doing glossy mailers,” So, the excuse is that they're doing phone banks and canvassing rather than running ads. Unfortunately, as we should know, money is fungible. Dark money spent to help Bernie in one way opens up other money to be spent on ads and glossy mailers.
Bernie is very much guilty of taking in big money and using a non-profit rather than a super PAC to hide that money. There are also a few other PACs and super PACs supporting Bernie (National Nurses United, Sunrise Movement, Dream Defenders, Center for Popular Democracy Action, People's Action, Democratic Socialists of America, Make the Road Action, Progressive Democrats of America). Most are small in scale, but are indeed PACs or super PACs that are aiding Bernie.
So, is your support of Bernie now 0% too?
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On February 27 2020 04:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 04:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:21 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:16 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 03:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 03:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 02:49 ShoCkeyy wrote:
[quote]
The Castros are pieces of shits. Like literal pieces of shit. I don't think there is a reasonable comparison to any US Presidents aside from Trump... I'm sure a lot of people feel that way, but I think the data/history shows otherwise and would be willing to demonstrate as much with a specific president of your choice. EDIT: Generally speaking, GWB is easily worse based on Iraq alone. While US presidents have yes, fucked over other countries, they at least haven't fucked their own country. The Castros have literally fucked their own country to the dark ages. Everyone is dirt fucking poor in Cuba except those in power. I don't think you can compare them ever. I already told you I can and will. Though by inexplicably excluding the president's primary domain of influence (foreign policy) you've already significantly tilted the table. When it comes to wealth distribution, Cuba is better than the US, and it improved dramatically as soon as Castro took power. Adv. Fidel partially on the Castros for sucking horribly at recognizing their geopolitical situation. You mean not being willing to be a vassal of the US while they pillaged their resources? Or not letting the CIA assassinate him in one of their dozens of attempts? I visit Cuba very frequently, and wealth distribution is non existent in Cuba, so I don't now where you're getting that kind of data from. Even if Cubans were dirt poor before Castro, Bautista still provided a better life for Cubans than what Castro has done for Cuba. Overall, Castro himself admitted that the people we're as hungry under Bautista, where under Castro every Cuban went hungry. I guess if you're actually arguing Batista was better there's nowhere to go from here. Bautista only killed the middle class, and his political opponenets, Castro killed everyone. As a person with a large Cuban heritage, all my family agrees that Castro was 100x worse than Bautista. Yes Bautista was still shit, Castro was total shit. "Castro killed everyone" is just hyperbolic nonsense. I'd venture to say your ability to frequently travel to Cuba and your family's preference for Batista are probably related (statistically speaking). I don't prefer either or, but the only thing good that came out of Castro was his Education system, which is what Bernie endorses, but also the reason why all the Cubans are up in arms because Bernie endorsed one idea of the Castro regime. Imagine just one idea from Castro and almost every Cuban is against Bernie in an instant. Castro did kill everyone, whether you don't want to believe it or not, he let his Cuban population starve, and still starve till this day. citation needed for killing everyone. I trust if the US listened to literally every other country on the planet (other than Israel and Brazil) and lifted the embargo there'd be a lot less poverty. Show nested quote +A United Nations agency said on Tuesday an “unjust” U.S. financial and trade embargo on Cuba had cost the country’s economy $130 billion. www.reuters.com
Poverty is of course from a lot of sources, an important one being the embargo.
But please, can you not try to misdirect the fact that Castro had an iron grip on his people despite him saying during the revolution that he would hand back power through elections asap, and that he ran his trials with the following motto "revolutionary justice is not based on legal precepts, but on moral conviction." allowing him to just do whatever he wanted.
The conservative estimates are around 30 to 40 thousands executions via firing squad, and I'm not taking into account the 50k+ who died at sea while trying to flee for freedom.
You can wish for a revolution, but please don't defend bloodbaths and a government killing its own population. You can't compare that to foreign wars. You can compare that to internment of japanese americans if you like. But I have not seen mass killings of its own people from all american presidents, and people are mostly free (to leave if they wish).
You might want to listen to the experience of the people whose families lived through that instead of having rose-tinted glasses and only taking what you like out of it.
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On February 27 2020 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 04:50 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:21 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:16 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 03:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 03:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:
[quote]
While US presidents have yes, fucked over other countries, they at least haven't fucked their own country. The Castros have literally fucked their own country to the dark ages. Everyone is dirt fucking poor in Cuba except those in power. I don't think you can compare them ever. I already told you I can and will. Though by inexplicably excluding the president's primary domain of influence (foreign policy) you've already significantly tilted the table. When it comes to wealth distribution, Cuba is better than the US, and it improved dramatically as soon as Castro took power. Adv. Fidel partially on the Castros for sucking horribly at recognizing their geopolitical situation. You mean not being willing to be a vassal of the US while they pillaged their resources? Or not letting the CIA assassinate him in one of their dozens of attempts? I visit Cuba very frequently, and wealth distribution is non existent in Cuba, so I don't now where you're getting that kind of data from. Even if Cubans were dirt poor before Castro, Bautista still provided a better life for Cubans than what Castro has done for Cuba. Overall, Castro himself admitted that the people we're as hungry under Bautista, where under Castro every Cuban went hungry. I guess if you're actually arguing Batista was better there's nowhere to go from here. Bautista only killed the middle class, and his political opponenets, Castro killed everyone. As a person with a large Cuban heritage, all my family agrees that Castro was 100x worse than Bautista. Yes Bautista was still shit, Castro was total shit. "Castro killed everyone" is just hyperbolic nonsense. I'd venture to say your ability to frequently travel to Cuba and your family's preference for Batista are probably related (statistically speaking). I don't prefer either or, but the only thing good that came out of Castro was his Education system, which is what Bernie endorses, but also the reason why all the Cubans are up in arms because Bernie endorsed one idea of the Castro regime. Imagine just one idea from Castro and almost every Cuban is against Bernie in an instant. Castro did kill everyone, whether you don't want to believe it or not, he let his Cuban population starve, and still starve till this day. citation needed for killing everyone. I trust if the US listened to literally every other country on the planet (other than Israel) and lifted the embargo there'd be a lot less poverty. A United Nations agency said on Tuesday an “unjust” U.S. financial and trade embargo on Cuba had cost the country’s economy $130 billion. www.reuters.com That's the problem, what makes you think that money will affect the daily lives of the Cuban people? It won't, it'll just go into the pockets of the powerful. Here's some old articles about the "genocide" of Cuban people using starvation which is still a huge problem till this day. Then Castro has the nerve to say it's the worlds fault... https://apnews.com/77fc824c2e7ef138407c0698537c60fehttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/millions-of-cubans-facing-starvation-hunger-is-fuelling-an-exodus-of-desperate-refugees-writes-phil-1417691.htmlThe Cuban people die daily of starvation, but you think the Cuban government is going to report on that? Hardly. The Cuban government has so much money, enough to end the hunger, and poverty on the island multiple times over, but they don't. The Castro's only enrich themselves. That first article is about both the Pope (anti-communist btw), and Castro decrying sanctions and the starving of people around the world as a result, not just Cuba. + Show Spoiler +``Why is it (the world) not equally moved by that genocide which is taking place every day in front of our eyes?″
``Why is it that criminal policies and absurd blockades that include food and medicines are being added ... with the purpose of annihilating whole populations with hunger and diseases?″ Castro said.
The pope opened the summit on Wednesday by denouncing the use of economic embargoes and sanctions. Which again the UN now agrees are unjust. The second are anecdotes from some person I am unable to identify (I guess he writes obits?) and pointing to people fleeing on rafts, which I admit is bad, but I'm not arguing he was perfect. Just better than US presidents. Neither are citations of him killing everyone. Also the US has ~500,000 sleeping on the streets, 11,000,000 kids experiencing food insecurity, 10's of thousands dying from lack of medical care, etc... while being the wealthiest country on the planet and the top 3 people holding more wealth than the bottom 100,000,000+ people in this country. EDIT: Just want to recap that thus far the argument has been that Castro is worse than all US presidents besides maybe Trump because Castro killed everyone by way of starvation (and US foreign policy doesn't count against US presidents). With those two articles from the 90's as the supporting evidence.
Just because both articles are from the 90's, doesn't mean that almost 20 years later it still isn't happening or relevant... Starvation is STILL a real thing in Cuba... Just because they have nationalized healthcare doesn't mean much if the hospitals are falling apart or non existent. Every time I visit cuba I have to bring whats called "Worm bags" that hold up to 60 pounds of food. Literally I have to wear the clothes I bring to Cuba on me, while my bag is full of food to help my family out because the only food available is pork and rice. Salaries for every job is $40 a month, even doctors. Food costs more than $40 in a week.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cuba-widespread-rationing-staple-foods-due-to-shortages-economic-crisis/
The article above is from 2019 with the government urging food ration in a country that they can support on their own with the amount of wealth they hold, there's obviously something wrong. My grandfather who was a Castro supporter died of hunger and cancer in Cuba...
Edit: To put it my simpler, the Castros are killing their own people via starvation because rather than actually spreading the wealth, and allowing people to have control of agriculture, they just hoard the wealth and food for themselves. Essentially the same thing North Korea has done. Which btw North Korea has an embassy quite close to the US embassy in Cuba, and there's always North Korean government officials in Cuba.
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On February 27 2020 06:52 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 04:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:21 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:16 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 03:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 03:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I'm sure a lot of people feel that way, but I think the data/history shows otherwise and would be willing to demonstrate as much with a specific president of your choice.
EDIT: Generally speaking, GWB is easily worse based on Iraq alone. While US presidents have yes, fucked over other countries, they at least haven't fucked their own country. The Castros have literally fucked their own country to the dark ages. Everyone is dirt fucking poor in Cuba except those in power. I don't think you can compare them ever. I already told you I can and will. Though by inexplicably excluding the president's primary domain of influence (foreign policy) you've already significantly tilted the table. When it comes to wealth distribution, Cuba is better than the US, and it improved dramatically as soon as Castro took power. Adv. Fidel partially on the Castros for sucking horribly at recognizing their geopolitical situation. You mean not being willing to be a vassal of the US while they pillaged their resources? Or not letting the CIA assassinate him in one of their dozens of attempts? I visit Cuba very frequently, and wealth distribution is non existent in Cuba, so I don't now where you're getting that kind of data from. Even if Cubans were dirt poor before Castro, Bautista still provided a better life for Cubans than what Castro has done for Cuba. Overall, Castro himself admitted that the people we're as hungry under Bautista, where under Castro every Cuban went hungry. I guess if you're actually arguing Batista was better there's nowhere to go from here. Bautista only killed the middle class, and his political opponenets, Castro killed everyone. As a person with a large Cuban heritage, all my family agrees that Castro was 100x worse than Bautista. Yes Bautista was still shit, Castro was total shit. "Castro killed everyone" is just hyperbolic nonsense. I'd venture to say your ability to frequently travel to Cuba and your family's preference for Batista are probably related (statistically speaking). I don't prefer either or, but the only thing good that came out of Castro was his Education system, which is what Bernie endorses, but also the reason why all the Cubans are up in arms because Bernie endorsed one idea of the Castro regime. Imagine just one idea from Castro and almost every Cuban is against Bernie in an instant. Castro did kill everyone, whether you don't want to believe it or not, he let his Cuban population starve, and still starve till this day. citation needed for killing everyone. I trust if the US listened to literally every other country on the planet (other than Israel and Brazil) and lifted the embargo there'd be a lot less poverty. A United Nations agency said on Tuesday an “unjust” U.S. financial and trade embargo on Cuba had cost the country’s economy $130 billion. www.reuters.com Poverty is of course from a lot of sources, an important one being the embargo. But please, can you not try to misdirect the fact that Castro had an iron grip on his people despite him saying during the revolution that he would hand back power through elections asap, and that he ran his trials with the following motto "revolutionary justice is not based on legal precepts, but on moral conviction." allowing him to just do whatever he wanted. The conservative estimates are around 30 to 40 thousands executions via firing squad, and I'm not taking into account the 50k+ who died at sea while trying to flee for freedom. You can wish for a revolution, but please don't defend bloodbaths and a government killing its own population. You can't compare that to foreign wars. You can compare that to internment of japanese americans if you like. But I have not seen mass killings of its own people from all american presidents, and people are mostly free (to leave if they wish). You might want to listen to the experience of the people whose families lived through that instead of having rose-tinted glasses and only taking what you like out of it.
I didn't misdirect anything. No one made that argument. The post you quoted requested a citation for these killings so I'm still waiting.
I would compare it to the war on drugs, which was explicitly started to suppress legitimate political opposition by systematically destroying the lives of millions of people and their families and continues to this day.
Castro argued many of the people that fled and were imprisoned/killed were part of the US/CIA's numerous, well documented and decades long efforts to assassinate him, replace his government with a US sponsored coup, and return ownership of Cuba's resources to US corporations and a handful of wealthy people.
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On February 27 2020 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 06:52 Nouar wrote:On February 27 2020 04:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:21 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:16 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 03:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 03:38 ShoCkeyy wrote:
[quote]
While US presidents have yes, fucked over other countries, they at least haven't fucked their own country. The Castros have literally fucked their own country to the dark ages. Everyone is dirt fucking poor in Cuba except those in power. I don't think you can compare them ever. I already told you I can and will. Though by inexplicably excluding the president's primary domain of influence (foreign policy) you've already significantly tilted the table. When it comes to wealth distribution, Cuba is better than the US, and it improved dramatically as soon as Castro took power. Adv. Fidel partially on the Castros for sucking horribly at recognizing their geopolitical situation. You mean not being willing to be a vassal of the US while they pillaged their resources? Or not letting the CIA assassinate him in one of their dozens of attempts? I visit Cuba very frequently, and wealth distribution is non existent in Cuba, so I don't now where you're getting that kind of data from. Even if Cubans were dirt poor before Castro, Bautista still provided a better life for Cubans than what Castro has done for Cuba. Overall, Castro himself admitted that the people we're as hungry under Bautista, where under Castro every Cuban went hungry. I guess if you're actually arguing Batista was better there's nowhere to go from here. Bautista only killed the middle class, and his political opponenets, Castro killed everyone. As a person with a large Cuban heritage, all my family agrees that Castro was 100x worse than Bautista. Yes Bautista was still shit, Castro was total shit. "Castro killed everyone" is just hyperbolic nonsense. I'd venture to say your ability to frequently travel to Cuba and your family's preference for Batista are probably related (statistically speaking). I don't prefer either or, but the only thing good that came out of Castro was his Education system, which is what Bernie endorses, but also the reason why all the Cubans are up in arms because Bernie endorsed one idea of the Castro regime. Imagine just one idea from Castro and almost every Cuban is against Bernie in an instant. Castro did kill everyone, whether you don't want to believe it or not, he let his Cuban population starve, and still starve till this day. citation needed for killing everyone. I trust if the US listened to literally every other country on the planet (other than Israel and Brazil) and lifted the embargo there'd be a lot less poverty. A United Nations agency said on Tuesday an “unjust” U.S. financial and trade embargo on Cuba had cost the country’s economy $130 billion. www.reuters.com Poverty is of course from a lot of sources, an important one being the embargo. But please, can you not try to misdirect the fact that Castro had an iron grip on his people despite him saying during the revolution that he would hand back power through elections asap, and that he ran his trials with the following motto "revolutionary justice is not based on legal precepts, but on moral conviction." allowing him to just do whatever he wanted. The conservative estimates are around 30 to 40 thousands executions via firing squad, and I'm not taking into account the 50k+ who died at sea while trying to flee for freedom. You can wish for a revolution, but please don't defend bloodbaths and a government killing its own population. You can't compare that to foreign wars. You can compare that to internment of japanese americans if you like. But I have not seen mass killings of its own people from all american presidents, and people are mostly free (to leave if they wish). You might want to listen to the experience of the people whose families lived through that instead of having rose-tinted glasses and only taking what you like out of it. I didn't misdirect anything. No one made that argument. The post you quoted requested a citation for these killings so I'm still waiting. I would compare it to the war on drugs, which was explicitly started to suppress legitimate political opposition by systematically destroying the lives of millions of people and their families and continues to this day. Castro argued many of the people that fled and were imprisoned/killed were part of the US/CIA's numerous, well documented and decades long efforts to assassinate him, replace his government with a US sponsored coup, and return ownership of Cuba's resources to US corporations and a handful of wealthy people.
Yea cause my grandmother and family are CIA officials, what a load of shit. You really think over millions of Cubans were part of the US prior to the "revolution"?...
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On February 27 2020 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Reminder that the US government considered killing innocent people in/around Florida (Operation Northwoods) to make Cuba look bad
I love that the US government has to answer for things it didn't do, but someone somewhere at some point considered.
If we could could find out all the thoughts that Castro had and had him answer for all those, I bet it'd be a lot worse than just the political executions and imprisonments he actually did have done.
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On February 27 2020 07:13 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 06:52 Nouar wrote:On February 27 2020 04:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:21 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:16 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 03:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I already told you I can and will. Though by inexplicably excluding the president's primary domain of influence (foreign policy) you've already significantly tilted the table.
When it comes to wealth distribution, Cuba is better than the US, and it improved dramatically as soon as Castro took power. Adv. Fidel
[quote]
You mean not being willing to be a vassal of the US while they pillaged their resources? Or not letting the CIA assassinate him in one of their dozens of attempts? I visit Cuba very frequently, and wealth distribution is non existent in Cuba, so I don't now where you're getting that kind of data from. Even if Cubans were dirt poor before Castro, Bautista still provided a better life for Cubans than what Castro has done for Cuba. Overall, Castro himself admitted that the people we're as hungry under Bautista, where under Castro every Cuban went hungry. I guess if you're actually arguing Batista was better there's nowhere to go from here. Bautista only killed the middle class, and his political opponenets, Castro killed everyone. As a person with a large Cuban heritage, all my family agrees that Castro was 100x worse than Bautista. Yes Bautista was still shit, Castro was total shit. "Castro killed everyone" is just hyperbolic nonsense. I'd venture to say your ability to frequently travel to Cuba and your family's preference for Batista are probably related (statistically speaking). I don't prefer either or, but the only thing good that came out of Castro was his Education system, which is what Bernie endorses, but also the reason why all the Cubans are up in arms because Bernie endorsed one idea of the Castro regime. Imagine just one idea from Castro and almost every Cuban is against Bernie in an instant. Castro did kill everyone, whether you don't want to believe it or not, he let his Cuban population starve, and still starve till this day. citation needed for killing everyone. I trust if the US listened to literally every other country on the planet (other than Israel and Brazil) and lifted the embargo there'd be a lot less poverty. A United Nations agency said on Tuesday an “unjust” U.S. financial and trade embargo on Cuba had cost the country’s economy $130 billion. www.reuters.com Poverty is of course from a lot of sources, an important one being the embargo. But please, can you not try to misdirect the fact that Castro had an iron grip on his people despite him saying during the revolution that he would hand back power through elections asap, and that he ran his trials with the following motto "revolutionary justice is not based on legal precepts, but on moral conviction." allowing him to just do whatever he wanted. The conservative estimates are around 30 to 40 thousands executions via firing squad, and I'm not taking into account the 50k+ who died at sea while trying to flee for freedom. You can wish for a revolution, but please don't defend bloodbaths and a government killing its own population. You can't compare that to foreign wars. You can compare that to internment of japanese americans if you like. But I have not seen mass killings of its own people from all american presidents, and people are mostly free (to leave if they wish). You might want to listen to the experience of the people whose families lived through that instead of having rose-tinted glasses and only taking what you like out of it. I didn't misdirect anything. No one made that argument. The post you quoted requested a citation for these killings so I'm still waiting. I would compare it to the war on drugs, which was explicitly started to suppress legitimate political opposition by systematically destroying the lives of millions of people and their families and continues to this day. Castro argued many of the people that fled and were imprisoned/killed were part of the US/CIA's numerous, well documented and decades long efforts to assassinate him, replace his government with a US sponsored coup, and return ownership of Cuba's resources to US corporations and a handful of wealthy people. Yea cause my grandmother and family are CIA officials, what a load of shit. You really think over millions of Cubans were part of the US prior to the "revolution"?...
Not at all. First I said "many". Secondly not CIA officials, but many people were sympathetic to their efforts to undermine/replace the Castro regime which included the Bay of Pigs invasion, where there was a pretty large body count.
The US attracted people from all around the world for a lot of reasons but many of the people that came to the US from Cuba (typically) not on rafts were (formally) affluent Cubans that had connections to the brutal Batista regime or the supporting US interests.
On February 27 2020 07:18 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Reminder that the US government considered killing innocent people in/around Florida (Operation Northwoods) to make Cuba look bad
I love that the US government has to answer for things it didn't do, but someone somewhere at some point considered. If we could could find out all the thoughts that Castro had and had him answer for all those, I bet it'd be a lot worse than just the political executions and imprisonments he actually did have done.
JFK supposedly stopped it, what happened to him again? Also The Gulf of Tonkin happened shortly afterwards. Where the same McNamera helped push a lie that got us more involved in the Vietnam war.
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Canada8989 Posts
On February 27 2020 07:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 07:13 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 06:52 Nouar wrote:On February 27 2020 04:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:21 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:16 ShoCkeyy wrote:
[quote]
I visit Cuba very frequently, and wealth distribution is non existent in Cuba, so I don't now where you're getting that kind of data from. Even if Cubans were dirt poor before Castro, Bautista still provided a better life for Cubans than what Castro has done for Cuba. Overall, Castro himself admitted that the people we're as hungry under Bautista, where under Castro every Cuban went hungry. I guess if you're actually arguing Batista was better there's nowhere to go from here. Bautista only killed the middle class, and his political opponenets, Castro killed everyone. As a person with a large Cuban heritage, all my family agrees that Castro was 100x worse than Bautista. Yes Bautista was still shit, Castro was total shit. "Castro killed everyone" is just hyperbolic nonsense. I'd venture to say your ability to frequently travel to Cuba and your family's preference for Batista are probably related (statistically speaking). I don't prefer either or, but the only thing good that came out of Castro was his Education system, which is what Bernie endorses, but also the reason why all the Cubans are up in arms because Bernie endorsed one idea of the Castro regime. Imagine just one idea from Castro and almost every Cuban is against Bernie in an instant. Castro did kill everyone, whether you don't want to believe it or not, he let his Cuban population starve, and still starve till this day. citation needed for killing everyone. I trust if the US listened to literally every other country on the planet (other than Israel and Brazil) and lifted the embargo there'd be a lot less poverty. A United Nations agency said on Tuesday an “unjust” U.S. financial and trade embargo on Cuba had cost the country’s economy $130 billion. www.reuters.com Poverty is of course from a lot of sources, an important one being the embargo. But please, can you not try to misdirect the fact that Castro had an iron grip on his people despite him saying during the revolution that he would hand back power through elections asap, and that he ran his trials with the following motto "revolutionary justice is not based on legal precepts, but on moral conviction." allowing him to just do whatever he wanted. The conservative estimates are around 30 to 40 thousands executions via firing squad, and I'm not taking into account the 50k+ who died at sea while trying to flee for freedom. You can wish for a revolution, but please don't defend bloodbaths and a government killing its own population. You can't compare that to foreign wars. You can compare that to internment of japanese americans if you like. But I have not seen mass killings of its own people from all american presidents, and people are mostly free (to leave if they wish). You might want to listen to the experience of the people whose families lived through that instead of having rose-tinted glasses and only taking what you like out of it. I didn't misdirect anything. No one made that argument. The post you quoted requested a citation for these killings so I'm still waiting. I would compare it to the war on drugs, which was explicitly started to suppress legitimate political opposition by systematically destroying the lives of millions of people and their families and continues to this day. Castro argued many of the people that fled and were imprisoned/killed were part of the US/CIA's numerous, well documented and decades long efforts to assassinate him, replace his government with a US sponsored coup, and return ownership of Cuba's resources to US corporations and a handful of wealthy people. Yea cause my grandmother and family are CIA officials, what a load of shit. You really think over millions of Cubans were part of the US prior to the "revolution"?... Not at all. First I said "many". Secondly not CIA officials, but many people were sympathetic to their efforts to undermine/replace the Castro regime which included the Bay of Pigs invasion, where there was a pretty large body count. The US attracted people from all around the world for a lot of reasons but many of the people that came to the US from Cuba (typically) not on rafts were (formally) affluent Cubans that had connections to the brutal Batista regime or the supporting US interests. Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 07:18 RenSC2 wrote:On February 27 2020 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Reminder that the US government considered killing innocent people in/around Florida (Operation Northwoods) to make Cuba look bad
I love that the US government has to answer for things it didn't do, but someone somewhere at some point considered. If we could could find out all the thoughts that Castro had and had him answer for all those, I bet it'd be a lot worse than just the political executions and imprisonments he actually did have done. JFK supposedly stopped it, what happened to him again?
He got killed by a deep state CIA opperation that was part of a cover up operation to stop communism sweeping across america I guess?
Well that or some bloke with a gun shot him.
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On February 27 2020 07:37 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 07:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 07:13 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 06:52 Nouar wrote:On February 27 2020 04:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 04:21 ShoCkeyy wrote:On February 27 2020 04:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
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I guess if you're actually arguing Batista was better there's nowhere to go from here. Bautista only killed the middle class, and his political opponenets, Castro killed everyone. As a person with a large Cuban heritage, all my family agrees that Castro was 100x worse than Bautista. Yes Bautista was still shit, Castro was total shit. "Castro killed everyone" is just hyperbolic nonsense. I'd venture to say your ability to frequently travel to Cuba and your family's preference for Batista are probably related (statistically speaking). I don't prefer either or, but the only thing good that came out of Castro was his Education system, which is what Bernie endorses, but also the reason why all the Cubans are up in arms because Bernie endorsed one idea of the Castro regime. Imagine just one idea from Castro and almost every Cuban is against Bernie in an instant. Castro did kill everyone, whether you don't want to believe it or not, he let his Cuban population starve, and still starve till this day. citation needed for killing everyone. I trust if the US listened to literally every other country on the planet (other than Israel and Brazil) and lifted the embargo there'd be a lot less poverty. A United Nations agency said on Tuesday an “unjust” U.S. financial and trade embargo on Cuba had cost the country’s economy $130 billion. www.reuters.com Poverty is of course from a lot of sources, an important one being the embargo. But please, can you not try to misdirect the fact that Castro had an iron grip on his people despite him saying during the revolution that he would hand back power through elections asap, and that he ran his trials with the following motto "revolutionary justice is not based on legal precepts, but on moral conviction." allowing him to just do whatever he wanted. The conservative estimates are around 30 to 40 thousands executions via firing squad, and I'm not taking into account the 50k+ who died at sea while trying to flee for freedom. You can wish for a revolution, but please don't defend bloodbaths and a government killing its own population. You can't compare that to foreign wars. You can compare that to internment of japanese americans if you like. But I have not seen mass killings of its own people from all american presidents, and people are mostly free (to leave if they wish). You might want to listen to the experience of the people whose families lived through that instead of having rose-tinted glasses and only taking what you like out of it. I didn't misdirect anything. No one made that argument. The post you quoted requested a citation for these killings so I'm still waiting. I would compare it to the war on drugs, which was explicitly started to suppress legitimate political opposition by systematically destroying the lives of millions of people and their families and continues to this day. Castro argued many of the people that fled and were imprisoned/killed were part of the US/CIA's numerous, well documented and decades long efforts to assassinate him, replace his government with a US sponsored coup, and return ownership of Cuba's resources to US corporations and a handful of wealthy people. Yea cause my grandmother and family are CIA officials, what a load of shit. You really think over millions of Cubans were part of the US prior to the "revolution"?... Not at all. First I said "many". Secondly not CIA officials, but many people were sympathetic to their efforts to undermine/replace the Castro regime which included the Bay of Pigs invasion, where there was a pretty large body count. The US attracted people from all around the world for a lot of reasons but many of the people that came to the US from Cuba (typically) not on rafts were (formally) affluent Cubans that had connections to the brutal Batista regime or the supporting US interests. On February 27 2020 07:18 RenSC2 wrote:On February 27 2020 04:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Reminder that the US government considered killing innocent people in/around Florida (Operation Northwoods) to make Cuba look bad
I love that the US government has to answer for things it didn't do, but someone somewhere at some point considered. If we could could find out all the thoughts that Castro had and had him answer for all those, I bet it'd be a lot worse than just the political executions and imprisonments he actually did have done. JFK supposedly stopped it, what happened to him again? He got killed by a deep state CIA opperation that was part of a cover up operation to stop communism sweeping across america I guess? Well that or some bloke with a gun shot him.
Definitely got killed, majority of people think it was some sort of "conspiracy", I don't have a specific theory myself though. I've always leaned more toward the Mob I guess, especially after learning more about their role in Cuba under Batista.
Might never know, but we'll probably have a better idea after we see whatever they've felt compelled to hide all this time (well beyond its original statutory guidelines)
Point is he was killed, then they pulled that almost exact trick on the next guy cost ~50,000 Americans their lives More if you count the ones still dying early from agent orange.
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Northern Ireland25648 Posts
We all know JFK was killed by a loose cabal of documentarians, alternative historians and novelists who deal in conspiracy theories.
Think about it who else gained more?
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On February 27 2020 08:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
We all know JFK was killed by a loose cabal of documentarians, alternative historians and novelists who deal in conspiracy theories.
Think about it who else gained more?
lmao, it is so obvious now. Probably working with the communist spy doctors from Cuba.
Without numbers and even with the caveat of not counting foreign policy I think we still see that Castro was better than any US president, at least as far as I can tell based on the arguments/supporting evidence presented.
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Norway28689 Posts
Naw not even close, would take FDR 100 times over Castro. Domestically I'd take mostly everyone - will definitely grant that castro have been much less disastrous for other countries than most tho.
I've been to Cuba and it is the one country I've been where poverty was by far most rampant, and torture of political dissidents can't be excused, and while I'm sure you can argue it's occasionally been practiced by the US, the scales are completely different. Our family took a private cab while we were there and we were stopped by the police, I don't think I've ever seen an as terrified face as those of our two cab drivers. Us tourists were treated real nice though, but whatever was in store for them was definitely not proportional to the crime they committed.
I mean, I think it's fair to give credit for how they improved the education and health care systems. They virtually eradicated illiteracy much faster than comparable countries, and the cubans I spoke to impressed me with their knowledge. (It was actually a guy from Ghana I met at Cuba who taught me that Finland wasn't considered part of Scandinavia, lol. ) Socialist/communist countries have been good at that anyway. You can give that credit without excusing torture and killing of political dissidents and suppression of free speech. (Although, to be fair, cubans we talked to were remarkably willing to speak negatively of castro when we were there - which was either 2004 or 2005. )
Economy is in one way not fully their fault - obviously the embargo has been terrible, and I give more blame for the US there, but people in influential positions have more money, and there's no question there's an attempted present-the-glorified-side-to-the-tourists which is suspicious to say the least. (We went out of our way to do illegal homedining and talk to locals to get a more real perspective, and my dad, whom has been a self-described socialist/communist most of his adult life, definitely got a reality check from our stay there).
Also have to factor in population - if 50000 cubans are executed by firing squad, that's comparable to 1.5 million americans being executed by firing squad.
Edit: I think you can be as critical as you are of the US without being as defensive as you are of dictators, and Fidel most definitely was one. I'm honestly not updated on how Raul is, but would expect much of the same.
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The fact that you did an illegal home dining (tourists are not allowed to visit non tourist areas) goes to show how fucked up the situation is. If those people were ever caught, you'd never hear from them again because it displays a different side to how Cuba really is that the government doesn't want to show.
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On February 27 2020 08:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 08:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
We all know JFK was killed by a loose cabal of documentarians, alternative historians and novelists who deal in conspiracy theories.
Think about it who else gained more? lmao, it is so obvious now. Probably working with the communist spy doctors from Cuba. Without numbers and even with the caveat of not counting foreign policy I think we still see that Castro was better than any US president, at least as far as I can tell based on the arguments/supporting evidence presented.
I can think of a few US presidents that haven't put the opposition leaders in front of a firing squad
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Jesus Christ You think Fidel was better than any US president? Even Andrew Jackson after defying the constitution and ruling unchallenged support among the military and the populace walked away when his term was up. Castro killed anyone who dared to ask if he was willing to share power in any degree at any time and was fully willing to allow anyone who wanted to leave to drown instead of doing the slightest of things to save them.
If you think Fidel was acceptable compared to ANY us president then you have to find Trump going for a third term acceptable. I mean heck FDR got four terms why not trump?
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On February 27 2020 10:27 Sermokala wrote:
Jesus Christ You think Fidel was better than any US president? Even Andrew Jackson after defying the constitution and ruling unchallenged support among the military and the populace walked away when his term was up. Castro killed anyone who dared to ask if he was willing to share power in any degree at any time and was fully willing to allow anyone who wanted to leave to drown instead of doing the slightest of things to save them.
If you think Fidel was acceptable compared to ANY us president then you have to find Trump going for a third term acceptable. I mean heck FDR got four terms why not trump?
This is why I'm still surprised that y'all take GH seriously as an intellectual.
He's an extremely left-wing version of a Trumper.
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FDR was Antisemitic af, into eugenics, and didn't support anti-lynching legislation for fear it would upset southerners.
Andrew Jackson was genocidal against the domestic population.
It isn't as if him and his political opposition simply had a disagreement, in many cases they were literally working with the CIA to kill or overthrow him. I've yet to get citations on the killings people are alleging but the like I said the jailing and killing of political opposition was literally cited as a reason for the drug war and that destroyed millions of lives.
On February 27 2020 10:08 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2020 08:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 27 2020 08:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
We all know JFK was killed by a loose cabal of documentarians, alternative historians and novelists who deal in conspiracy theories.
Think about it who else gained more? lmao, it is so obvious now. Probably working with the communist spy doctors from Cuba. Without numbers and even with the caveat of not counting foreign policy I think we still see that Castro was better than any US president, at least as far as I can tell based on the arguments/supporting evidence presented. I can think of a few US presidents that haven't put the opposition leaders in front of a firing squad
They've preferred assassination mostly after the genocide of the indigenous people living here. But MLK, Fred Hampton, and others were shot by conspiracies involving the federal government.
I do wonder how many times the US government could conspire to kill you and overthrow your government before the paranoia would be overwhelming for anyone
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I think Green Horizons is just comparing the overall carnage, oppression and suffering caused by US presidents and Castro
Maybe 100% of US presidents is hyperbole - idk enough about the nuances of every single regime to know for sure - but in most cases I’d wager that US president caused more oppression and death than Castro based on the simple fact of the size and power of the US. Whether allowing slavery, abuse against native Americans, imperialism, interfering in foreign countries, supporting brutal foreign regimes, cartel wars in Latin a,Erica, CIA activities, starting wars, unilateral military activity, global weapons seller, proxy wars, collateral damage, military industrial complex making money at the expense of lives (including Americans) The list goes on but I’m too drunk
That is not to say that Castro wouldn’t have done the same if he were a US president. Who knows what he would’ve done if he were around during slavery or the the middle eastern invasions for example. Nobody can know.
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On February 27 2020 11:17 BerserkSword wrote:
I think Green Horizons is just comparing the overall carnage, oppression and suffering caused by US presidents and Castro
Maybe 100% of US presidents is hyperbole - idk enough about the nuances of every single regime to know for sure - but in most cases I’d wager that US president caused more oppression and death than Castro based on the simple fact of the size and power of the US. Whether allowing slavery, abuse against native Americans, imperialism, interfering in foreign countries, supporting brutal foreign regimes, cartel wars in Latin a,Erica, CIA activities, starting wars, unilateral military activity, global weapons seller, proxy wars, collateral damage, military industrial complex making money at the expense of lives (including Americans) The list goes on but I’m too drunk
That is not to say that Castro wouldn’t have done the same if he were a US president. Who knows what he would’ve done if he were around during slavery or the the middle eastern invasions for example. Nobody can know.
It is very reasonable to presume wealth would be more equitably distributed and we'd have things like universal healthcare and education (since he did it with less amid fighting for his life and government against the most powerful government on the planet). Though I don't know if he'd abandon his politics and become mad with power and go full imperialist granted the position of the US, if we're being honest.
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EPT
