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On February 12 2020 11:16 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Trump tweets about unfair sentencing recommendation for his pal Roger Stone, and DoJ just overrules the prosecutors working the case a day later, reducing sentencing recommendation from 9 to 3 years, leading all four of the prosecutors to resign. Seems like everything is going downhill fast.
We can talk about the Democratic candidates but will Trump even give up power if he loses?
I think it is weird since Trump is just going to commute/pardon the sentence after the election regardless of the results.
Whether Trump leaves voluntarily depends on how close it is. This is why I was raising the importance of Democrats willingness to not only botch an election but so easily look past it for political expedience. We can all see, that especially if Bernie isn't the nominee, Trump will point to Iowa to undermine close results.
Cancelling the election as Help suggests seems extreme but I'd put the possibility at ~5-10% higher if it looks like he'll obviously lose.
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On February 12 2020 10:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Warren needs to endorse Bernie ASAP if she actually believes in what she is campaigning on. If she waits too long and the centrists start endorsing each other, this will get bad quick.
Absolutely.
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On February 12 2020 11:21 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 10:08 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 10:03 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 09:58 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2020 06:52 Nyxisto wrote:
for what it's worth I don't mind heated back and forth and I've been posting here for years but this thread looked like more fun when there were still a bunch of more conservative Americans around, and I don't even necessarily think I said anything that was super controversial I don't think your take is controversial, I think your take is incorrect. Trump right now is very tough to beat, he's the incumbent, he has an economy with good liberal markers, he just defeated impeachment which makes him look strong (record approval rating for him, right?). "We don't like him" is hardly a successful message against this, especially not since you've been saying it for four years and the voters see mostly no difference. Now let's talk political strategy. We need to win back some states, what are our best options? Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, fairly clearly. What was up with these states not voting for Hillary? Those states went for Bernie in the primary (except for Pennsylvania which was a closed primary), it's fairly obvious that they weren't too fond of the neoliberal economic policy that Hillary offered, but they seemed okay with something more radical. Good to know. As usual, the most important bit of political strategy that is forgotten in this analysis is that the center of the US is not where you think it is. This study that I keep posting in the wind shows that. The centrist in America is not someone who thinks trans people are awesome and it's great that the 1% is hoarding all the wealth, it's someone who is concerned with income inequality but not quite woke on social issues. When taking that into account, it makes perfect sense that Trump is viewed as more "moderate" than Hillary Clinton, as you said: on the graph, she campaigned bottom right where very few people are, and he campaigned somewhere in the upper center left, way closer to the true center of american politics. The republican strategists salivating at the thought of running against socialist Sanders are the mirror image of the democratic strategists who were salivating at the thought of running against racist, sexist Trump. Is it impossible that they win? No, of course, Trump still has a decent shot. But from the data that we have and the objectives that we should aim for, one strategy makes way more logical sense than the other. On top of being the right thing to do for the long term wellbeing of the country. The only thing that Sanders has going for him in regards to the rustbelt voters is his anti-establishment brand. Bernie isn't socially moderate. In addition to his economic policies he's also running on abolishing the ICE, providing healthcare to illegal immigrants, etc.. he runs just as woke of a program as the progressive wing of the party in addition to his left-wing economic policies. Why would people who go from Obama to Trump or from Clinton to Trump go from Trump to Sanders? It just doesn't make that much sense. If you want to win the rustbelt run a socially conservative economically moderate candidate, not a progressive. The idea that people who think bernie can't win are akin to people who think Trump couldn't win isn't great because the democrats were always borderline delusional about the fact that half of the country is very right-wing. Trump never trailed Clinton by that much, and urban liberals thought racism is too off-putting for the average voter. Which is wrong. However half of polled people say they aren't going to vote for a socialist. The Republican strategists happen to be right with the claim that the US is much more right-wing than progressives think it is. This is an anecdote of one. I abhorr Trump, but if Bernie is the (D) nominee I will sprint to the polls to vote for Trump. Take that as you will. Why? His economic policies for the most part. He would ruin the country, even if I happen to agree with some of his other stances. Fucking Trump ballooned your deficit by a 500 billion dollars a year and you get less done now. You could've had universal healthcare for less money.
I never said Trump was good, but compared to Bernie, I'll run to the polls. Plus, it's hilarious to see people who supported Obama talk about deficits. I don't want "Green" Chavez V2 in the WH.
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On February 12 2020 11:21 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 10:08 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 10:03 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 09:58 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2020 06:52 Nyxisto wrote:
for what it's worth I don't mind heated back and forth and I've been posting here for years but this thread looked like more fun when there were still a bunch of more conservative Americans around, and I don't even necessarily think I said anything that was super controversial I don't think your take is controversial, I think your take is incorrect. Trump right now is very tough to beat, he's the incumbent, he has an economy with good liberal markers, he just defeated impeachment which makes him look strong (record approval rating for him, right?). "We don't like him" is hardly a successful message against this, especially not since you've been saying it for four years and the voters see mostly no difference. Now let's talk political strategy. We need to win back some states, what are our best options? Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, fairly clearly. What was up with these states not voting for Hillary? Those states went for Bernie in the primary (except for Pennsylvania which was a closed primary), it's fairly obvious that they weren't too fond of the neoliberal economic policy that Hillary offered, but they seemed okay with something more radical. Good to know. As usual, the most important bit of political strategy that is forgotten in this analysis is that the center of the US is not where you think it is. This study that I keep posting in the wind shows that. The centrist in America is not someone who thinks trans people are awesome and it's great that the 1% is hoarding all the wealth, it's someone who is concerned with income inequality but not quite woke on social issues. When taking that into account, it makes perfect sense that Trump is viewed as more "moderate" than Hillary Clinton, as you said: on the graph, she campaigned bottom right where very few people are, and he campaigned somewhere in the upper center left, way closer to the true center of american politics. The republican strategists salivating at the thought of running against socialist Sanders are the mirror image of the democratic strategists who were salivating at the thought of running against racist, sexist Trump. Is it impossible that they win? No, of course, Trump still has a decent shot. But from the data that we have and the objectives that we should aim for, one strategy makes way more logical sense than the other. On top of being the right thing to do for the long term wellbeing of the country. The only thing that Sanders has going for him in regards to the rustbelt voters is his anti-establishment brand. Bernie isn't socially moderate. In addition to his economic policies he's also running on abolishing the ICE, providing healthcare to illegal immigrants, etc.. he runs just as woke of a program as the progressive wing of the party in addition to his left-wing economic policies. Why would people who go from Obama to Trump or from Clinton to Trump go from Trump to Sanders? It just doesn't make that much sense. If you want to win the rustbelt run a socially conservative economically moderate candidate, not a progressive. The idea that people who think bernie can't win are akin to people who think Trump couldn't win isn't great because the democrats were always borderline delusional about the fact that half of the country is very right-wing. Trump never trailed Clinton by that much, and urban liberals thought racism is too off-putting for the average voter. Which is wrong. However half of polled people say they aren't going to vote for a socialist. The Republican strategists happen to be right with the claim that the US is much more right-wing than progressives think it is. This is an anecdote of one. I abhorr Trump, but if Bernie is the (D) nominee I will sprint to the polls to vote for Trump. Take that as you will. Why? His economic policies for the most part. He would ruin the country, even if I happen to agree with some of his other stances. Fucking Trump ballooned your deficit by a 500 billion dollars a year and you get less done now. You could've had universal healthcare for less money.
The problem is that if a Republican does it nobody cares, but if a Democrat does it they shriek socialism to the heavens, tear their hair and check the bedside table to see if their bibles have been replaced with the communist manifesto.
If you take two policies that are socially progressive and attach a Republican or a Democrat to them you'll get completely different emotional responses to those policies that are entirely separate from their merits. If Trump started pushing Bernie's policies the Republicans would find a way to justify it and most Republicans would find a way to vote for it.
Were Republicans trying to crack the earth when Obamacare was invented by Mitt Romney? Nope. Didn't give a fuck. It was only when a Democrat got their hands on it that the heavens o'erturned.
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On February 12 2020 11:26 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:21 Lmui wrote:On February 12 2020 10:08 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 10:03 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 09:58 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2020 06:52 Nyxisto wrote:
for what it's worth I don't mind heated back and forth and I've been posting here for years but this thread looked like more fun when there were still a bunch of more conservative Americans around, and I don't even necessarily think I said anything that was super controversial I don't think your take is controversial, I think your take is incorrect. Trump right now is very tough to beat, he's the incumbent, he has an economy with good liberal markers, he just defeated impeachment which makes him look strong (record approval rating for him, right?). "We don't like him" is hardly a successful message against this, especially not since you've been saying it for four years and the voters see mostly no difference. Now let's talk political strategy. We need to win back some states, what are our best options? Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, fairly clearly. What was up with these states not voting for Hillary? Those states went for Bernie in the primary (except for Pennsylvania which was a closed primary), it's fairly obvious that they weren't too fond of the neoliberal economic policy that Hillary offered, but they seemed okay with something more radical. Good to know. As usual, the most important bit of political strategy that is forgotten in this analysis is that the center of the US is not where you think it is. This study that I keep posting in the wind shows that. The centrist in America is not someone who thinks trans people are awesome and it's great that the 1% is hoarding all the wealth, it's someone who is concerned with income inequality but not quite woke on social issues. When taking that into account, it makes perfect sense that Trump is viewed as more "moderate" than Hillary Clinton, as you said: on the graph, she campaigned bottom right where very few people are, and he campaigned somewhere in the upper center left, way closer to the true center of american politics. The republican strategists salivating at the thought of running against socialist Sanders are the mirror image of the democratic strategists who were salivating at the thought of running against racist, sexist Trump. Is it impossible that they win? No, of course, Trump still has a decent shot. But from the data that we have and the objectives that we should aim for, one strategy makes way more logical sense than the other. On top of being the right thing to do for the long term wellbeing of the country. The only thing that Sanders has going for him in regards to the rustbelt voters is his anti-establishment brand. Bernie isn't socially moderate. In addition to his economic policies he's also running on abolishing the ICE, providing healthcare to illegal immigrants, etc.. he runs just as woke of a program as the progressive wing of the party in addition to his left-wing economic policies. Why would people who go from Obama to Trump or from Clinton to Trump go from Trump to Sanders? It just doesn't make that much sense. If you want to win the rustbelt run a socially conservative economically moderate candidate, not a progressive. The idea that people who think bernie can't win are akin to people who think Trump couldn't win isn't great because the democrats were always borderline delusional about the fact that half of the country is very right-wing. Trump never trailed Clinton by that much, and urban liberals thought racism is too off-putting for the average voter. Which is wrong. However half of polled people say they aren't going to vote for a socialist. The Republican strategists happen to be right with the claim that the US is much more right-wing than progressives think it is. This is an anecdote of one. I abhorr Trump, but if Bernie is the (D) nominee I will sprint to the polls to vote for Trump. Take that as you will. Why? His economic policies for the most part. He would ruin the country, even if I happen to agree with some of his other stances. Fucking Trump ballooned your deficit by a 500 billion dollars a year and you get less done now. You could've had universal healthcare for less money. I never said Trump was good, but compared to Bernie, I'll run to the polls. Plus, it's hilarious to see people who supported Obama talk about deficits. I don't want "Green" Chavez V2 in the WH.
So can you specifically list which of his policies you think will ruin this country or...?
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Klob with almost 20% right now is amazing. What a campaign. How did she do this? How do you have like negative 10 national support and 20 in NH?
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On February 12 2020 11:34 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:26 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 11:21 Lmui wrote:On February 12 2020 10:08 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 10:03 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 09:58 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2020 06:52 Nyxisto wrote:
for what it's worth I don't mind heated back and forth and I've been posting here for years but this thread looked like more fun when there were still a bunch of more conservative Americans around, and I don't even necessarily think I said anything that was super controversial I don't think your take is controversial, I think your take is incorrect. Trump right now is very tough to beat, he's the incumbent, he has an economy with good liberal markers, he just defeated impeachment which makes him look strong (record approval rating for him, right?). "We don't like him" is hardly a successful message against this, especially not since you've been saying it for four years and the voters see mostly no difference. Now let's talk political strategy. We need to win back some states, what are our best options? Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, fairly clearly. What was up with these states not voting for Hillary? Those states went for Bernie in the primary (except for Pennsylvania which was a closed primary), it's fairly obvious that they weren't too fond of the neoliberal economic policy that Hillary offered, but they seemed okay with something more radical. Good to know. As usual, the most important bit of political strategy that is forgotten in this analysis is that the center of the US is not where you think it is. This study that I keep posting in the wind shows that. The centrist in America is not someone who thinks trans people are awesome and it's great that the 1% is hoarding all the wealth, it's someone who is concerned with income inequality but not quite woke on social issues. When taking that into account, it makes perfect sense that Trump is viewed as more "moderate" than Hillary Clinton, as you said: on the graph, she campaigned bottom right where very few people are, and he campaigned somewhere in the upper center left, way closer to the true center of american politics. The republican strategists salivating at the thought of running against socialist Sanders are the mirror image of the democratic strategists who were salivating at the thought of running against racist, sexist Trump. Is it impossible that they win? No, of course, Trump still has a decent shot. But from the data that we have and the objectives that we should aim for, one strategy makes way more logical sense than the other. On top of being the right thing to do for the long term wellbeing of the country. The only thing that Sanders has going for him in regards to the rustbelt voters is his anti-establishment brand. Bernie isn't socially moderate. In addition to his economic policies he's also running on abolishing the ICE, providing healthcare to illegal immigrants, etc.. he runs just as woke of a program as the progressive wing of the party in addition to his left-wing economic policies. Why would people who go from Obama to Trump or from Clinton to Trump go from Trump to Sanders? It just doesn't make that much sense. If you want to win the rustbelt run a socially conservative economically moderate candidate, not a progressive. The idea that people who think bernie can't win are akin to people who think Trump couldn't win isn't great because the democrats were always borderline delusional about the fact that half of the country is very right-wing. Trump never trailed Clinton by that much, and urban liberals thought racism is too off-putting for the average voter. Which is wrong. However half of polled people say they aren't going to vote for a socialist. The Republican strategists happen to be right with the claim that the US is much more right-wing than progressives think it is. This is an anecdote of one. I abhorr Trump, but if Bernie is the (D) nominee I will sprint to the polls to vote for Trump. Take that as you will. Why? His economic policies for the most part. He would ruin the country, even if I happen to agree with some of his other stances. Fucking Trump ballooned your deficit by a 500 billion dollars a year and you get less done now. You could've had universal healthcare for less money. I never said Trump was good, but compared to Bernie, I'll run to the polls. Plus, it's hilarious to see people who supported Obama talk about deficits. I don't want "Green" Chavez V2 in the WH. So can you specifically list which of his policies you think will ruin this country or...?
There are a lot, I'll list 4 to start with:
Student debt forgiveness
Green New Deal
Medicare for All
Delusion that "rich" tax increases will pay for any of his socialist drivel
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Buttigieg slowly gaining in the second half, Sanders lead is below 2.4% now.
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On February 12 2020 11:42 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:34 StasisField wrote:On February 12 2020 11:26 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 11:21 Lmui wrote:On February 12 2020 10:08 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 10:03 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 09:58 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2020 06:52 Nyxisto wrote:
for what it's worth I don't mind heated back and forth and I've been posting here for years but this thread looked like more fun when there were still a bunch of more conservative Americans around, and I don't even necessarily think I said anything that was super controversial I don't think your take is controversial, I think your take is incorrect. Trump right now is very tough to beat, he's the incumbent, he has an economy with good liberal markers, he just defeated impeachment which makes him look strong (record approval rating for him, right?). "We don't like him" is hardly a successful message against this, especially not since you've been saying it for four years and the voters see mostly no difference. Now let's talk political strategy. We need to win back some states, what are our best options? Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, fairly clearly. What was up with these states not voting for Hillary? Those states went for Bernie in the primary (except for Pennsylvania which was a closed primary), it's fairly obvious that they weren't too fond of the neoliberal economic policy that Hillary offered, but they seemed okay with something more radical. Good to know. As usual, the most important bit of political strategy that is forgotten in this analysis is that the center of the US is not where you think it is. This study that I keep posting in the wind shows that. The centrist in America is not someone who thinks trans people are awesome and it's great that the 1% is hoarding all the wealth, it's someone who is concerned with income inequality but not quite woke on social issues. When taking that into account, it makes perfect sense that Trump is viewed as more "moderate" than Hillary Clinton, as you said: on the graph, she campaigned bottom right where very few people are, and he campaigned somewhere in the upper center left, way closer to the true center of american politics. The republican strategists salivating at the thought of running against socialist Sanders are the mirror image of the democratic strategists who were salivating at the thought of running against racist, sexist Trump. Is it impossible that they win? No, of course, Trump still has a decent shot. But from the data that we have and the objectives that we should aim for, one strategy makes way more logical sense than the other. On top of being the right thing to do for the long term wellbeing of the country. The only thing that Sanders has going for him in regards to the rustbelt voters is his anti-establishment brand. Bernie isn't socially moderate. In addition to his economic policies he's also running on abolishing the ICE, providing healthcare to illegal immigrants, etc.. he runs just as woke of a program as the progressive wing of the party in addition to his left-wing economic policies. Why would people who go from Obama to Trump or from Clinton to Trump go from Trump to Sanders? It just doesn't make that much sense. If you want to win the rustbelt run a socially conservative economically moderate candidate, not a progressive. The idea that people who think bernie can't win are akin to people who think Trump couldn't win isn't great because the democrats were always borderline delusional about the fact that half of the country is very right-wing. Trump never trailed Clinton by that much, and urban liberals thought racism is too off-putting for the average voter. Which is wrong. However half of polled people say they aren't going to vote for a socialist. The Republican strategists happen to be right with the claim that the US is much more right-wing than progressives think it is. This is an anecdote of one. I abhorr Trump, but if Bernie is the (D) nominee I will sprint to the polls to vote for Trump. Take that as you will. Why? His economic policies for the most part. He would ruin the country, even if I happen to agree with some of his other stances. Fucking Trump ballooned your deficit by a 500 billion dollars a year and you get less done now. You could've had universal healthcare for less money. I never said Trump was good, but compared to Bernie, I'll run to the polls. Plus, it's hilarious to see people who supported Obama talk about deficits. I don't want "Green" Chavez V2 in the WH. So can you specifically list which of his policies you think will ruin this country or...? There are a lot, I'll list 4 to start with: Student debt forgiveness Green New Deal Medicare for All Delusion that "rich" tax increases will pay for any of his socialist drivel
Before we get into the details, first explain why *many* other countries have implemented all of the above to great success but it would “ruin the economy” in the US
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On February 12 2020 11:44 Zaros wrote:
Buttigieg slowly gaining in the second half, Sanders lead is below 2.4% now.
Somethings fishy imo lol
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On February 12 2020 11:44 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:44 Zaros wrote:
Buttigieg slowly gaining in the second half, Sanders lead is below 2.4% now. Somethings fishy imo lol
Now under 2%
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On February 12 2020 11:49 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:44 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2020 11:44 Zaros wrote:
Buttigieg slowly gaining in the second half, Sanders lead is below 2.4% now. Somethings fishy imo lol Now under 2%
You really want Buttigieg to win and Sanders to lose don't you?
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On February 12 2020 11:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:49 Zaros wrote:On February 12 2020 11:44 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2020 11:44 Zaros wrote:
Buttigieg slowly gaining in the second half, Sanders lead is below 2.4% now. Somethings fishy imo lol Now under 2% You really want Buttigieg to win and Sanders to lose don't you?
and you really want Sanders to win so what?
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On February 12 2020 11:27 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:21 Lmui wrote:On February 12 2020 10:08 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 10:03 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 09:58 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2020 06:52 Nyxisto wrote:
for what it's worth I don't mind heated back and forth and I've been posting here for years but this thread looked like more fun when there were still a bunch of more conservative Americans around, and I don't even necessarily think I said anything that was super controversial I don't think your take is controversial, I think your take is incorrect. Trump right now is very tough to beat, he's the incumbent, he has an economy with good liberal markers, he just defeated impeachment which makes him look strong (record approval rating for him, right?). "We don't like him" is hardly a successful message against this, especially not since you've been saying it for four years and the voters see mostly no difference. Now let's talk political strategy. We need to win back some states, what are our best options? Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, fairly clearly. What was up with these states not voting for Hillary? Those states went for Bernie in the primary (except for Pennsylvania which was a closed primary), it's fairly obvious that they weren't too fond of the neoliberal economic policy that Hillary offered, but they seemed okay with something more radical. Good to know. As usual, the most important bit of political strategy that is forgotten in this analysis is that the center of the US is not where you think it is. This study that I keep posting in the wind shows that. The centrist in America is not someone who thinks trans people are awesome and it's great that the 1% is hoarding all the wealth, it's someone who is concerned with income inequality but not quite woke on social issues. When taking that into account, it makes perfect sense that Trump is viewed as more "moderate" than Hillary Clinton, as you said: on the graph, she campaigned bottom right where very few people are, and he campaigned somewhere in the upper center left, way closer to the true center of american politics. The republican strategists salivating at the thought of running against socialist Sanders are the mirror image of the democratic strategists who were salivating at the thought of running against racist, sexist Trump. Is it impossible that they win? No, of course, Trump still has a decent shot. But from the data that we have and the objectives that we should aim for, one strategy makes way more logical sense than the other. On top of being the right thing to do for the long term wellbeing of the country. The only thing that Sanders has going for him in regards to the rustbelt voters is his anti-establishment brand. Bernie isn't socially moderate. In addition to his economic policies he's also running on abolishing the ICE, providing healthcare to illegal immigrants, etc.. he runs just as woke of a program as the progressive wing of the party in addition to his left-wing economic policies. Why would people who go from Obama to Trump or from Clinton to Trump go from Trump to Sanders? It just doesn't make that much sense. If you want to win the rustbelt run a socially conservative economically moderate candidate, not a progressive. The idea that people who think bernie can't win are akin to people who think Trump couldn't win isn't great because the democrats were always borderline delusional about the fact that half of the country is very right-wing. Trump never trailed Clinton by that much, and urban liberals thought racism is too off-putting for the average voter. Which is wrong. However half of polled people say they aren't going to vote for a socialist. The Republican strategists happen to be right with the claim that the US is much more right-wing than progressives think it is. This is an anecdote of one. I abhorr Trump, but if Bernie is the (D) nominee I will sprint to the polls to vote for Trump. Take that as you will. Why? His economic policies for the most part. He would ruin the country, even if I happen to agree with some of his other stances. Fucking Trump ballooned your deficit by a 500 billion dollars a year and you get less done now. You could've had universal healthcare for less money. The problem is that if a Republican does it nobody cares, but if a Democrat does it they shriek socialism to the heavens, tear their hair and check the bedside table to see if their bibles have been replaced with the communist manifesto. If you take two policies that are socially progressive and attach a Republican or a Democrat to them you'll get completely different emotional responses to those policies that are entirely separate from their merits. If Trump started pushing Bernie's policies the Republicans would find a way to justify it and most Republicans would find a way to vote for it. Were Republicans trying to crack the earth when Obamacare was invented by Mitt Romney? Nope. Didn't give a fuck. It was only when a Democrat got their hands on it that the heavens o'erturned.
While it's cathartic to do this, tribalism is not a uniquely Republican phenomenon. The reps could say exactly the same about the way the Dems have brushed aside the issues in Iowa while pursuing Trump for Ukraine.
Honestly, it blows my mind that the Dems could end up nominating a candidate that Donald Trump can grandstand against on due process. Iowa was a national disaster.
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On February 12 2020 11:56 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 12 2020 11:49 Zaros wrote:On February 12 2020 11:44 TentativePanda wrote:On February 12 2020 11:44 Zaros wrote:
Buttigieg slowly gaining in the second half, Sanders lead is below 2.4% now. Somethings fishy imo lol Now under 2% You really want Buttigieg to win and Sanders to lose don't you? and you really want Sanders to win so what?
As people were pointing out earlier and I mentioned before, it isn't a sports contest to me. Buttigieg and his policy/leadership/winning represents a material threat to my well-being and people I care about.
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Nobody who is in the Bernie camp is "brushing aside" the Iowa issues...you can't 'both sides' this.
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On February 12 2020 11:42 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:34 StasisField wrote:On February 12 2020 11:26 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 11:21 Lmui wrote:On February 12 2020 10:08 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On February 12 2020 10:03 Wegandi wrote:On February 12 2020 09:58 Nyxisto wrote:On February 12 2020 08:22 Nebuchad wrote:On February 12 2020 06:52 Nyxisto wrote:
for what it's worth I don't mind heated back and forth and I've been posting here for years but this thread looked like more fun when there were still a bunch of more conservative Americans around, and I don't even necessarily think I said anything that was super controversial I don't think your take is controversial, I think your take is incorrect. Trump right now is very tough to beat, he's the incumbent, he has an economy with good liberal markers, he just defeated impeachment which makes him look strong (record approval rating for him, right?). "We don't like him" is hardly a successful message against this, especially not since you've been saying it for four years and the voters see mostly no difference. Now let's talk political strategy. We need to win back some states, what are our best options? Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, fairly clearly. What was up with these states not voting for Hillary? Those states went for Bernie in the primary (except for Pennsylvania which was a closed primary), it's fairly obvious that they weren't too fond of the neoliberal economic policy that Hillary offered, but they seemed okay with something more radical. Good to know. As usual, the most important bit of political strategy that is forgotten in this analysis is that the center of the US is not where you think it is. This study that I keep posting in the wind shows that. The centrist in America is not someone who thinks trans people are awesome and it's great that the 1% is hoarding all the wealth, it's someone who is concerned with income inequality but not quite woke on social issues. When taking that into account, it makes perfect sense that Trump is viewed as more "moderate" than Hillary Clinton, as you said: on the graph, she campaigned bottom right where very few people are, and he campaigned somewhere in the upper center left, way closer to the true center of american politics. The republican strategists salivating at the thought of running against socialist Sanders are the mirror image of the democratic strategists who were salivating at the thought of running against racist, sexist Trump. Is it impossible that they win? No, of course, Trump still has a decent shot. But from the data that we have and the objectives that we should aim for, one strategy makes way more logical sense than the other. On top of being the right thing to do for the long term wellbeing of the country. The only thing that Sanders has going for him in regards to the rustbelt voters is his anti-establishment brand. Bernie isn't socially moderate. In addition to his economic policies he's also running on abolishing the ICE, providing healthcare to illegal immigrants, etc.. he runs just as woke of a program as the progressive wing of the party in addition to his left-wing economic policies. Why would people who go from Obama to Trump or from Clinton to Trump go from Trump to Sanders? It just doesn't make that much sense. If you want to win the rustbelt run a socially conservative economically moderate candidate, not a progressive. The idea that people who think bernie can't win are akin to people who think Trump couldn't win isn't great because the democrats were always borderline delusional about the fact that half of the country is very right-wing. Trump never trailed Clinton by that much, and urban liberals thought racism is too off-putting for the average voter. Which is wrong. However half of polled people say they aren't going to vote for a socialist. The Republican strategists happen to be right with the claim that the US is much more right-wing than progressives think it is. This is an anecdote of one. I abhorr Trump, but if Bernie is the (D) nominee I will sprint to the polls to vote for Trump. Take that as you will. Why? His economic policies for the most part. He would ruin the country, even if I happen to agree with some of his other stances. Fucking Trump ballooned your deficit by a 500 billion dollars a year and you get less done now. You could've had universal healthcare for less money. I never said Trump was good, but compared to Bernie, I'll run to the polls. Plus, it's hilarious to see people who supported Obama talk about deficits. I don't want "Green" Chavez V2 in the WH. So can you specifically list which of his policies you think will ruin this country or...? There are a lot, I'll list 4 to start with: Student debt forgiveness Green New Deal Medicare for All Delusion that "rich" tax increases will pay for any of his socialist drivel
1. Studies show this would actually boost the economy
2. This would create countless jobs and put us on a track of sustainability
3. Even a study by the Koch brothers shows this M4A would save money
4. It's not a delusion and these aren't even socialist policies.
Care to explain why basically every other developed country on earth can do these things but us?
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On February 12 2020 12:00 mierin wrote:
Nobody who is in the Bernie camp is "brushing aside" the Iowa issues...you can't 'both sides' this.
Of course Bernie's not brushing aside the issues that directly disadvantage him lol.
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Bernie is starting to pull away again hes back above 2% with 26% left to report.
Edit and hes back slightly under with 21% left. Hes still got 4k votes margin
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oh wow massive update Pete is now within 1%
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EPT
