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On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential.
It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv.
As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it.
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On December 17 2019 07:40 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 07:32 JimmiC wrote:On December 17 2019 07:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean I don't have data on this but I'm thinking that a significant amount of people might at some point find themselves in a point of desperation that could make them go for heroin or something as an escape or source of personal numbing, if they were easily able to acquire it at that point. not as a 'this sounds fun', but as a 'my situation is hopeless', which might not have actually been the case. And then it follows that a not insignificant amount of people would, after realizing that the first time was the best thing they ever felt, run the risk of doing it enough times for them to develop an addiction.
I mean, people already do this with alcohol, and it's plenty destructive in that case. Easily available harder drugs, from my perspective, can be predicted to have negative effects on the population, that I am not sure are actually alleviated by the positive effects legalizing and regulating would bring.
But for drugs that are significantly less dangerous than alcohol, like weed, I don't really see the argument. I think the only flaw is thinking that is not easy to get now and that legalizing and regulating would make it easier, it would likely make it harder you could even enforce things like a councilor at each place it is sold explaining the danger and helping with the helplessness. If you watch that video it talks about how the opposite of addiction is connection and how the famous rat trial where they do heroine till they die is flawed because once they give the rats companionship and things to do they no longer are very interested. You would be able to have massive savings from legalization along with massive revenues. And yes you could also do this horribly wrong by doing it free market style where companies are trying to get people hooked to up their profits. But with enough rules and responsible government making them and spending that money (which is no given) I think it would be a huge boon to society. and at worst, significantly better. Responsible government? You do know we elected Trump, right? Lower seats are even easier to get a corrupt person in office. Pharmaceutical companies already own Congress. Legalization equals profit for someone at the cost of the citizens. Expecting the government to do it well is foolish. The debate should be between poorly run criminalization, poorly run decriminalization, and poorly run legalization. This is the key point. Incompetent legalisation is at least as dangerous as the current situation. It's fantasy to recognise that corporate interests have comprehensively steered the system in their favour for 50+ years, but believe it won't happen in this case.
Incompetent decriminalisation is the least-worst of those options by a country mile.
Also, the difference between:
On December 16 2019 23:59 JimmiC wrote:
People act like legalizing something means more would use. Didn't happen with booze, won't happen with others. and:
On December 17 2019 06:47 JimmiC wrote:
@drone from what I have read there is some confusion on the data and what has caused it. When I first read about Colorado there was a slight uptick at the beginning from people trying it and there is also a amount that is "pot tourism" which would mostly disappear if it was legal everywhere. But more recently I've been reading more that there is a gradual drift where people are starting to choose pot over win or beer (especially beer) in the casual at how drink after work/after the kids go to bed market. But there is also lots of information that says pot is likely better for you or comparable as booze, it is my presumption that people wouldn't swap their glass of win for heroine knowing how dangerous it is. ...is central to this discussion.
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Northern Ireland27343 Posts
It’s fanciful to assume, unless kept on an extremely tight leash that legalising drugs won’t have negative effects in capitalism.
We have a whole marketing infrastructure that has (primarily) women literally dying from body dysmoprhia and related issues, we have existing issues with alcoholism and addiction, we have all sorts of issues of selling dreams to people.
We should not let ‘legitimate’ industry anywhere near pushing hard drugs, the barge pole should be firmly employed.
I’m entirely pro legislation, just not necessarily within a market capitalism context.
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I don't understand what you want when you say you want to legalise hard drugs but also not let legal industry near them.
Perhaps some definitions are needed.
- I see decriminalisation as removing penalties for possession and use while retaining or strengthening penalties for production and distribution.
- I see legalisation as making both consumption and production legal and legitimate
EDIT: I think I misread you, actually, but I'll leave this because it's probably still a helpful thing to clarify
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On December 17 2019 08:25 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I am sorry but, you are going to have to flesh that out GH, as it is not clear what it is you are trying to say.
Seemed pretty straightforward to me, where did I lose you?
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On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it.
Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well.
The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period.
Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are.
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Northern Ireland27343 Posts
On December 17 2019 08:52 Belisarius wrote:
I don't understand what you want when you say you want to legalise hard drugs but also not let legal industry near them.
Perhaps some definitions are needed.
- I see decriminalisation as removing penalties for possession and use while retaining or strengthening penalties for production and distribution.
- I see legalisation as making both consumption and production legal and legitimate
EDIT: I think I misread you, actually, but it's probably still a helpful thing to clarify
I think they should be legal, both because throwing people in jail is ridiculous but also that it cuts out the black market and the ruinous ‘drug war’ (albeit not entirely)
On the other hand, I absolutely do not want it to become so normalised in regular industry so you have advertisements inferring that if you do cocaine you can bang hot women and get that promotion.
Perhaps they exist elsewhere but I’ve never seen adverts for various drugs outside of the US context.
And coincidentally the US has much higher rates of opioid painkiller use and psychiatric meds than elsewhere.
I’ve talked to Americans in the past who are on 4-5 psychiatric medications on a higher dosage than I am, who has a diagnosed medical condition and was in hospital for almost a year for it.
Which to me is disturbing, and I see legalised drugs without REALLY stringent controls being not just sold to people legally, but sold to them as something they need
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On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it. Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well. The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period. Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are.
You're literally talking about how capitalism is a root problem though?
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On December 17 2019 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it. Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well. The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period. Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are. You're literally talking about how capitalism is a root problem though?
Um. I think what I said was, and you may have gotten lost in the two paragraphs preceding it, was that the problem is that people see someone they admire/respect doing it and want to try it. Capitalism wasn't present when I tried my first beer. And it wasn't present when I tried my first joint. Government and advocate forces did away with cigarette ads because of the health risks. Alcohol has been regulated to being mostly shown during adult programming on TV and sporting events.
That people make money off of the sales of alcohol is a non sequitur. It was never going to go away. Regulating it is the best way forward.
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On December 17 2019 09:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it. Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well. The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period. Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are. You're literally talking about how capitalism is a root problem though? Um. I think what I said was, and you may have gotten lost in the two paragraphs preceding it, was that the problem is that people see someone they admire/respect doing it and want to try it. Capitalism wasn't present when I tried my first beer. And it wasn't present when I tried my first joint. Government and advocate forces did away with cigarette ads because of the health risks. Alcohol has been regulated to being mostly shown during adult programming on TV and sporting events. That people make money off of the sales of alcohol is a non sequitur. It was never going to go away. Regulating it is the best way forward.
I'm not disagreeing with your lack of awareness that you're talking about capitalism's role as a root problem, I was simply pointing out that you are. The issue being discussed isn't some vague and empty anecdote about behavior modeling, it's the pervasiveness and danger of systemic propaganda of that modeling for profit on a massive scale through capitalist media (and how it inhibits progress on drug related issues).
The individualistic observational nature of your analysis is it's primary flaw imo.
EDIT: To simplify, ask yourself why the model is drinking, be they in a commercial or at home.
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On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
...
The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period.
Methamphetamines are literally prescribed by doctors for a variety of reasons. One of them is to help people with ADHD. Another is a weight loss pill.
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On December 17 2019 09:28 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
...
The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period.
Methamphetamines are literally prescribed by doctors for a variety of reasons. One of them is to help people with ADHD. Another is a weight loss pill. Edit: Nvm got things mixed up.
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On December 17 2019 09:28 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
...
The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period.
Methamphetamines are literally prescribed by doctors for a variety of reasons. One of them is to help people with ADHD. Another is a weight loss pill.
You know I meant crystal meth and not the prescribed stuff. Come now friend.
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On December 17 2019 09:21 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 09:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it. Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well. The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period. Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are. You're literally talking about how capitalism is a root problem though? Um. I think what I said was, and you may have gotten lost in the two paragraphs preceding it, was that the problem is that people see someone they admire/respect doing it and want to try it. Capitalism wasn't present when I tried my first beer. And it wasn't present when I tried my first joint. Government and advocate forces did away with cigarette ads because of the health risks. Alcohol has been regulated to being mostly shown during adult programming on TV and sporting events. That people make money off of the sales of alcohol is a non sequitur. It was never going to go away. Regulating it is the best way forward. I'm not disagreeing with your lack of awareness that you're talking about capitalism's role as a root problem, I was simply pointing out that you are. The issue being discussed isn't some vague and empty anecdote about behavior modeling, it's the pervasiveness and danger of systemic propaganda of that modeling for profit on a massive scale through capitalist media (and how it inhibits progress on drug related issues). The individualistic observational nature of your analysis is it's primary flaw imo. EDIT: To simplify, ask yourself why the model is drinking, be they in a commercial or at home.
I'll keep this short because I tire of your diatribe. The issue being discussed is the roles legalization and decriminalization of hard substances. We started with marijuana and moved to alcohol. That people profit from the sales of these are not important. What is important is how to change the laws to cope with a change in societal acceptance and norms.
Some think that the borders need to be tighter than your asshole or that laws need to be modernized is the topic at hand. That you cannot fathom a discussion that doesn't demonize capitalism as you would like is your problem to solve. Can you provide an example of your form of government that solves these issues. Is is democratic socialism? Communism? Pure Socialism? Neo-socialism? Some other -ism that we are heretofore unaware of?
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The difference is where exactly? The active molecule is still the active molecule.
Let people understand they could still have fun with much lesser dosages and people can handle it responsibly.
Also, on the other side of the coin, the prescribed stuff is also abused like mad. So plenty of people will still get their abuse in.
It mostly comes down to this; personality - aka your genetic makeup - and your social setting. If one or both are fucked your prone to abuse. Plently of people can stay functioning while having some kind of bad mental/physical habit. We should stop letting the world be a clean place and let us indulge in our faults, if it let's us work together at least.
One guy has a sleeping pill addiction, the other just wants to be on the internet all day, the other loves smelling women's underwear, the other one is a heroine junkie, the other a stoner, the other one is an alcoholic, the other one has an obsessive shopping disorder, ...
It's no use trying to make people stop their coping mechanism for a world gone awry. There's too much info, too many signals, too much synthetic shit, we're not able to deal with that as humans. We're slowly breaking and we're trying to deal with it by either drinking, smoking or dialing up.
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On December 17 2019 09:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 09:28 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
...
The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period.
Methamphetamines are literally prescribed by doctors for a variety of reasons. One of them is to help people with ADHD. Another is a weight loss pill. You know I meant crystal meth and not the prescribed stuff. Come now friend.
The active ingredient is essentially identical.
Ninja'd so I'll address this
On December 17 2019 10:02 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 09:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it. Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well. The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period. Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are. You're literally talking about how capitalism is a root problem though? Um. I think what I said was, and you may have gotten lost in the two paragraphs preceding it, was that the problem is that people see someone they admire/respect doing it and want to try it. Capitalism wasn't present when I tried my first beer. And it wasn't present when I tried my first joint. Government and advocate forces did away with cigarette ads because of the health risks. Alcohol has been regulated to being mostly shown during adult programming on TV and sporting events. That people make money off of the sales of alcohol is a non sequitur. It was never going to go away. Regulating it is the best way forward. I'm not disagreeing with your lack of awareness that you're talking about capitalism's role as a root problem, I was simply pointing out that you are. The issue being discussed isn't some vague and empty anecdote about behavior modeling, it's the pervasiveness and danger of systemic propaganda of that modeling for profit on a massive scale through capitalist media (and how it inhibits progress on drug related issues). The individualistic observational nature of your analysis is it's primary flaw imo. EDIT: To simplify, ask yourself why the model is drinking, be they in a commercial or at home. I'll keep this short because I tire of your diatribe. The issue being discussed is the roles legalization and decriminalization of hard substances. We started with marijuana and moved to alcohol. That people profit from the sales of these are not important. What is important is how to change the laws to cope with a change in societal acceptance and norms. Some think that the borders need to be tighter than your asshole or that laws need to be modernized is the topic at hand. That you cannot fathom a discussion that doesn't demonize capitalism as you would like is your problem to solve. Can you provide an example of your form of government that solves these issues. Is is democratic socialism? Communism? Pure Socialism? Neo-socialism? Some other -ism that we are heretofore unaware of?
I get you see things as a crude dichotomy for which I only offer up your translations of my analysis like "everything is capitalism's fault" and would rather not engage with the arguments as presented, but even with that in mind you have to see the flaw in:
That people profit from the sales of these are not important. What is important is how to change the laws
in the US where the law and the process by which it is changed is unarguably beholden to the profit motive of capitalism.
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Northern Ireland27343 Posts
On December 17 2019 10:02 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 09:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it. Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well. The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period. Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are. You're literally talking about how capitalism is a root problem though? Um. I think what I said was, and you may have gotten lost in the two paragraphs preceding it, was that the problem is that people see someone they admire/respect doing it and want to try it. Capitalism wasn't present when I tried my first beer. And it wasn't present when I tried my first joint. Government and advocate forces did away with cigarette ads because of the health risks. Alcohol has been regulated to being mostly shown during adult programming on TV and sporting events. That people make money off of the sales of alcohol is a non sequitur. It was never going to go away. Regulating it is the best way forward. I'm not disagreeing with your lack of awareness that you're talking about capitalism's role as a root problem, I was simply pointing out that you are. The issue being discussed isn't some vague and empty anecdote about behavior modeling, it's the pervasiveness and danger of systemic propaganda of that modeling for profit on a massive scale through capitalist media (and how it inhibits progress on drug related issues). The individualistic observational nature of your analysis is it's primary flaw imo. EDIT: To simplify, ask yourself why the model is drinking, be they in a commercial or at home. I'll keep this short because I tire of your diatribe. The issue being discussed is the roles legalization and decriminalization of hard substances. We started with marijuana and moved to alcohol. That people profit from the sales of these are not important. What is important is how to change the laws to cope with a change in societal acceptance and norms. Some think that the borders need to be tighter than your asshole or that laws need to be modernized is the topic at hand. That you cannot fathom a discussion that doesn't demonize capitalism as you would like is your problem to solve. Can you provide an example of your form of government that solves these issues. Is is democratic socialism? Communism? Pure Socialism? Neo-socialism? Some other -ism that we are heretofore unaware of?
How is it not important?
An entire industry exists to both sell you alcohol and make it seem a good option for you.
Basically regardless of the externalities of this, so yeah capitalism fundamentally is kind of a factor.
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On December 17 2019 10:02 Uldridge wrote:
The difference is where exactly? The active molecule is still the active molecule.
Let people understand they could still have fun with much lesser dosages and people can handle it responsibly.
Also, on the other side of the coin, the prescribed stuff is also abused like mad. So plenty of people will still get their abuse in.
It mostly comes down to this; personality - aka your genetic makeup - and your social setting. If one or both are fucked your prone to abuse. Plently of people can stay functioning while having some kind of bad mental/physical habit. We should stop letting the world be a clean place and let us indulge in our faults, if it let's us work together at least.
One guy has a sleeping pill addiction, the other just wants to be on the internet all day, the other loves smelling women's underwear, the other one is a heroine junkie, the other a stoner, the other one is an alcoholic, the other one has an obsessive shopping disorder, ...
It's no use trying to make people stop their coping mechanism for a world gone awry. There's too much info, too many signals, too much synthetic shit, we're not able to deal with that as humans. We're slowly breaking and we're trying to deal with it by either drinking, smoking or dialing up.
If you want to debate the difference between crystal meth and prescribed meth (didn't know there was such a thing), then I'm all for it. The difference that I was making was that one is a homemade agent of fucking terrible consequences that kills people on the first try. One is regulated by the FDA and has years of scientific research behind it to show that it won't, in normal circumstances, kill you after the first dose.
And no, you cannot allow the people to use drugs uninhibited for various reasons, one being that any combo of those drugs will change the way you behave. I can't drink and smoke weed without getting sick and I damn sure ain't getting behind a wheel. But someone who thinks they can handle that, does and boom. Death. Freedom to fuck your life is not freedom to fuck another.
On December 17 2019 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 10:02 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 09:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it. Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well. The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period. Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are. You're literally talking about how capitalism is a root problem though? Um. I think what I said was, and you may have gotten lost in the two paragraphs preceding it, was that the problem is that people see someone they admire/respect doing it and want to try it. Capitalism wasn't present when I tried my first beer. And it wasn't present when I tried my first joint. Government and advocate forces did away with cigarette ads because of the health risks. Alcohol has been regulated to being mostly shown during adult programming on TV and sporting events. That people make money off of the sales of alcohol is a non sequitur. It was never going to go away. Regulating it is the best way forward. I'm not disagreeing with your lack of awareness that you're talking about capitalism's role as a root problem, I was simply pointing out that you are. The issue being discussed isn't some vague and empty anecdote about behavior modeling, it's the pervasiveness and danger of systemic propaganda of that modeling for profit on a massive scale through capitalist media (and how it inhibits progress on drug related issues). The individualistic observational nature of your analysis is it's primary flaw imo. EDIT: To simplify, ask yourself why the model is drinking, be they in a commercial or at home. I'll keep this short because I tire of your diatribe. The issue being discussed is the roles legalization and decriminalization of hard substances. We started with marijuana and moved to alcohol. That people profit from the sales of these are not important. What is important is how to change the laws to cope with a change in societal acceptance and norms. Some think that the borders need to be tighter than your asshole or that laws need to be modernized is the topic at hand. That you cannot fathom a discussion that doesn't demonize capitalism as you would like is your problem to solve. Can you provide an example of your form of government that solves these issues. Is is democratic socialism? Communism? Pure Socialism? Neo-socialism? Some other -ism that we are heretofore unaware of? How is it not important? An entire industry exists to both sell you alcohol and make it seem a good option for you. Basically regardless of the externalities of this, so yeah capitalism fundamentally is kind of a factor.
That alcohol has been in around since humans figured they could get drunk from it. That people made a way to make money isn't something to be admonished. That we allow under age children to consume and cause accidents is however.
It's like saying that the people who made cell phones are responsible for deaths. It isn't an industry issue. It's a personal accountability issue. If you can't get to fucking McDonald's without texting and driving, then you shouldn't be driving. We as society have to stop scapegoating people poor decisions we ourselves make. YOU decided to drive and text. Apple didn't force you.
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On December 17 2019 10:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 10:02 Uldridge wrote:
The difference is where exactly? The active molecule is still the active molecule.
Let people understand they could still have fun with much lesser dosages and people can handle it responsibly.
Also, on the other side of the coin, the prescribed stuff is also abused like mad. So plenty of people will still get their abuse in.
It mostly comes down to this; personality - aka your genetic makeup - and your social setting. If one or both are fucked your prone to abuse. Plently of people can stay functioning while having some kind of bad mental/physical habit. We should stop letting the world be a clean place and let us indulge in our faults, if it let's us work together at least.
One guy has a sleeping pill addiction, the other just wants to be on the internet all day, the other loves smelling women's underwear, the other one is a heroine junkie, the other a stoner, the other one is an alcoholic, the other one has an obsessive shopping disorder, ...
It's no use trying to make people stop their coping mechanism for a world gone awry. There's too much info, too many signals, too much synthetic shit, we're not able to deal with that as humans. We're slowly breaking and we're trying to deal with it by either drinking, smoking or dialing up.
If you want to debate the difference between crystal meth and prescribed meth (didn't know there was such a thing), then I'm all for it. The difference that I was making was that one is a homemade agent of fucking terrible consequences that kills people on the first try. One is regulated by the FDA and has years of scientific research behind it to show that it won't, in normal circumstances, kill you after the first dose. And no, you cannot allow the people to use drugs uninhibited for various reasons, one being that any combo of those drugs will change the way you behave. I can't drink and smoke weed without getting sick and I damn sure ain't getting behind a wheel. But someone who thinks they can handle that, does and boom. Death. Freedom to fuck your life is not freedom to fuck another. Show nested quote +On December 17 2019 10:06 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 17 2019 10:02 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 09:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 17 2019 09:05 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 08:29 Uldridge wrote:On December 17 2019 07:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 17 2019 07:40 Uldridge wrote:
The horrible unethical thing is that alcohol is a major depressant, addictive and there's enough money behind it making it look sexy as fuck to drink it. Slow down there. Have you seen me drink a pour of whisky? I make it look really sexy. Really though, where do you see the most alcohol ads? Who is drinking it? What is the demographic targeted to? Edit: For those wanting to regulate or ban substances, do you partake in any of them? Honest question. I want to get a sense of the demographic before responding further. I don't need to know specifics per se but it would help. You can message me to keep it more confidential. It's everywhere? Public spaces, tv, radio, internet. Of course it's going to be targeted demographic, but kids go see soccer mathes, they see the Carlsberg ads, or they can see the Smirnoff ad on tv. As for myself, I've partaken in various amounts of substances, all I've used very responsibly, except for alcohol, because once that gets you going and it's fun, you don't stop. Getting another drink is just so easy, I mean, you just drink it. Thanks for responding. I see what you mean. The matches and TV ads are a thing that is pretty pervasive. Especially in mags and TV ads. The thing I usually see it the most is at some kind of sporting event or if one is being televised. That is the nature of society. The reason they stopped allowing cigs to be advertised is because it was highly addictive and kids were trying them sooner. Maybe we can get to something like that? It still doesn't negate the fact that if a kid sees an adult they admire or think is cool doing it, they will probably try it as well. The point is, regulating tobacco and alcohol and other substances is a precarious endeavor. The more you make it illegal, the more people want to rebel and do it. Prohibition was repealed for capitalists reasons, but it was obvious that it was never going away. There's too many ways to make it and distribute it. The same can't be said for harder drugs. It's harder to make cocaine/crack or meth safely and then get it out to the demand. Those need to be outlawed period. Edit: Thank goodness I thought we would have a discussion on a topic without someone blaming capitalism for everything that is wrong and hinting that magically socialism or some other form would make it all better. But here we are. You're literally talking about how capitalism is a root problem though? Um. I think what I said was, and you may have gotten lost in the two paragraphs preceding it, was that the problem is that people see someone they admire/respect doing it and want to try it. Capitalism wasn't present when I tried my first beer. And it wasn't present when I tried my first joint. Government and advocate forces did away with cigarette ads because of the health risks. Alcohol has been regulated to being mostly shown during adult programming on TV and sporting events. That people make money off of the sales of alcohol is a non sequitur. It was never going to go away. Regulating it is the best way forward. I'm not disagreeing with your lack of awareness that you're talking about capitalism's role as a root problem, I was simply pointing out that you are. The issue being discussed isn't some vague and empty anecdote about behavior modeling, it's the pervasiveness and danger of systemic propaganda of that modeling for profit on a massive scale through capitalist media (and how it inhibits progress on drug related issues). The individualistic observational nature of your analysis is it's primary flaw imo. EDIT: To simplify, ask yourself why the model is drinking, be they in a commercial or at home. I'll keep this short because I tire of your diatribe. The issue being discussed is the roles legalization and decriminalization of hard substances. We started with marijuana and moved to alcohol. That people profit from the sales of these are not important. What is important is how to change the laws to cope with a change in societal acceptance and norms. Some think that the borders need to be tighter than your asshole or that laws need to be modernized is the topic at hand. That you cannot fathom a discussion that doesn't demonize capitalism as you would like is your problem to solve. Can you provide an example of your form of government that solves these issues. Is is democratic socialism? Communism? Pure Socialism? Neo-socialism? Some other -ism that we are heretofore unaware of? How is it not important? An entire industry exists to both sell you alcohol and make it seem a good option for you. Basically regardless of the externalities of this, so yeah capitalism fundamentally is kind of a factor. That alcohol has been in around since humans figured they could get drunk from it. That people made a way to make money isn't something to be admonished. That we allow under age children to consume and cause accidents is however. It's like saying that the people who made cell phones are responsible for deaths. It isn't an industry issue. It's a personal accountability issue. If you can't get to fucking McDonald's without texting and driving, then you shouldn't be driving. We as society have to stop scapegoating people poor decisions we ourselves make. YOU decided to drive and text. Apple didn't force you.
It's funny to me how when pressed to defend capitalism, ostensible 'leftists' reveal the right-wing conservative individualism from which their views emerge.
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Northern Ireland27343 Posts
If people are totally autonomous beings who make good decisions all the time why is marketing and advertising such a huge industry?
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EPT
