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On August 17 2019 14:12 Muliphein wrote:Great example. So the best children to spank ie abuse are those with Down syndrome. Show nested quote +
EDIT: Just curious how you feel about "boogie man" stories to get kids to do stuff and whether you would include notions of heaven or hell as a punishment for misdeeds in that?
Yes, convincing children that they will burn in hell forever is obviously child abuse. Imagine half of us really are going to burn in hell forever. Would you really tell a kid that? Would you really use that as a threat for not listening ie 'not respecting your elders'. Boogey man stories is of course a weaker example. Tingling the imagination of a child in a playful way with a scary story; fine. Threatening with some boogey man they really need to be afraid of; abuse. Can't believe you actually have to ask this. We are talking about beating children. Of course this is an upsetting subject.
Yeah I'm not agreeing with Pang.
I grew up surrounded by kids that believed they'd go to hell for disobeying God/their parents/whatever authority figure (serving as a proxy for a parent) and would cry to me about how they fretted for my soul and how horrible it would be never seeing my loved ones again and all that, so yeah it's easy for me to remember/imagine.
I wouldn't personally, but the law is perfectly fine with it. If you tell your kid they'll go to hell for disobeying you and I spank my kid and tell them darting in traffic will get them hurt worse than the spank hurts only one of us is at risk of losing a kid or our freedom.
Hence my earlier point about the disappointment they'll feel when they realize the rational discourse you taught them is often practically useless in their interactions with other authority figures in adulthood.
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On August 17 2019 14:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2019 13:46 Pangpootata wrote:
There are certain circumstances where spanking works better at correcting behavior.
Let's say you have a child with down syndrome who is never going to develop past a certain mental stage.
The child cannot understand explanations of what is wrong and what is right. Spanking creates negative reinforcement (Action -> Pain) that causes the child to avoid taking that action in future. There are often situations where I am frustrated that certain people are unable to understand what is right and wrong. I would be interested in hearing more of your arguments for how we might use pain as a way of training them to have Pavlovian aversions to the activity they are unable to see is wrong. Like imagine there’s this dipshit hitting his disabled kid because he’s never developed the kind of mental capacity to understand not to hit mentally disabled children. If every time he tried that he got punched in the face then he’d probably stop doing it pretty quickly, even though he’d still be a massive dipshit.
There is a big difference between lightly hitting a child with an open palm and punching in the face.
Nobody in this thread is advocating use of full force against a child, but quite a few are okay with light spanking under certain circumstances.
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On August 17 2019 13:46 Pangpootata wrote:
There are certain circumstances where spanking works better at correcting behavior.
Let's say you have a child with down syndrome who is never going to develop past a certain mental stage.
The child cannot understand explanations of what is wrong and what is right. Spanking creates negative reinforcement (Action -> Pain) that causes the child to avoid taking that action in future.
Spanking is positive punishment. Punishment decreases behavior, reinforcement increases. Positive is adding something, negative is removing something.
Positive punishment is difficult to do properly when it's not automatic, it also has side effects that coupled with down syndrome can be a pretty bad way to change behavior.
Working with Down syndrome is irrc routine, positive reinforcement, directing focus, encouraging social interaction and encouraging agency was the way to help most children with down syndrome.
This kind of gap on behavioral psychology is part of the reason places ban spanking, intermittent application of classical behavioral conditioning is messed up. Gambling and loot boxes use intermittent positive reinforcement, it works. Cults in the 70's commonly used Intermittent conditioning coupled with depriving people of food and sleep to get traumatic bonding; as do abusive romantic relationships.
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On August 17 2019 14:42 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2019 13:46 Pangpootata wrote:
There are certain circumstances where spanking works better at correcting behavior.
Let's say you have a child with down syndrome who is never going to develop past a certain mental stage.
The child cannot understand explanations of what is wrong and what is right. Spanking creates negative reinforcement (Action -> Pain) that causes the child to avoid taking that action in future. Spanking is positive punishment. Punishment decreases behavior, reinforcement increases. Positive is adding something, negative is removing something.
Your username is very apt 
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United States44012 Posts
On August 17 2019 14:41 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2019 14:19 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2019 13:46 Pangpootata wrote:
There are certain circumstances where spanking works better at correcting behavior.
Let's say you have a child with down syndrome who is never going to develop past a certain mental stage.
The child cannot understand explanations of what is wrong and what is right. Spanking creates negative reinforcement (Action -> Pain) that causes the child to avoid taking that action in future. There are often situations where I am frustrated that certain people are unable to understand what is right and wrong. I would be interested in hearing more of your arguments for how we might use pain as a way of training them to have Pavlovian aversions to the activity they are unable to see is wrong. Like imagine there’s this dipshit hitting his disabled kid because he’s never developed the kind of mental capacity to understand not to hit mentally disabled children. If every time he tried that he got punched in the face then he’d probably stop doing it pretty quickly, even though he’d still be a massive dipshit. There is a big difference between lightly hitting a child with an open palm and punching in the face. Nobody in this thread is advocating use of full force against a child, but quite a few are okay with light spanking under certain circumstances.
I’m okay with it being as forceful as it needs to be until the person in question gets the message.
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On August 17 2019 14:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2019 14:12 Muliphein wrote:Great example. So the best children to spank ie abuse are those with Down syndrome.
EDIT: Just curious how you feel about "boogie man" stories to get kids to do stuff and whether you would include notions of heaven or hell as a punishment for misdeeds in that?
Yes, convincing children that they will burn in hell forever is obviously child abuse. Imagine half of us really are going to burn in hell forever. Would you really tell a kid that? Would you really use that as a threat for not listening ie 'not respecting your elders'. Boogey man stories is of course a weaker example. Tingling the imagination of a child in a playful way with a scary story; fine. Threatening with some boogey man they really need to be afraid of; abuse. Can't believe you actually have to ask this. We are talking about beating children. Of course this is an upsetting subject. Yeah I'm not agreeing with Pang. I grew up surrounded by kids that believed they'd go to hell for disobeying God/their parents/whatever authority figure (serving as a proxy for a parent) and would cry to me about how they fretted for my soul and how horrible it would be never seeing my loved ones again and all that, so yeah it's easy for me to remember/imagine. I wouldn't personally, but the law is perfectly fine with it. If you tell your kid they'll go to hell for disobeying you and I spank my kid and tell them darting in traffic will get them hurt worse than the spank hurts only one of us is at risk of losing a kid or our freedom. Hence my earlier point about the disappointment they'll feel when they realize the rational discourse you taught them is often practically useless in their interactions with other authority figures in adulthood.
I don't get what you are trying to say. Do you know what you are trying to say yourself?
If what you are trying to say is that telling your children they, or their friends, will burn in hell is not equally illegal as spanking, you'd be correct. And I would support a ban for either, though spanking is much more straightforward of a violation.
If what you are trying to say is that you should give your kid the impression that you are a crazy, delusional, irrational parent, because the world is like that so the kid better learn how to deal with those kinds of people so they won't feel the 'disappointment' you describe, then well you are a crazy, delusional, irrational person that should never have kids. And to me, you are on the border of where kids should be taken away from you if you had them.
Oh and so we all do agree that the only situation where spanking is morally ok is when it is literally the only way to save a kid from a deadly accident? Yes, we all agree. Nice. Good to hear we all agree that spanking is under all practical situations never moral.
You people realize that parents that spank lose their calm and just lash out, right. And then they make up some rationalization later, right?
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On August 17 2019 15:20 Muliphein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2019 14:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 17 2019 14:12 Muliphein wrote:Great example. So the best children to spank ie abuse are those with Down syndrome.
EDIT: Just curious how you feel about "boogie man" stories to get kids to do stuff and whether you would include notions of heaven or hell as a punishment for misdeeds in that?
Yes, convincing children that they will burn in hell forever is obviously child abuse. Imagine half of us really are going to burn in hell forever. Would you really tell a kid that? Would you really use that as a threat for not listening ie 'not respecting your elders'. Boogey man stories is of course a weaker example. Tingling the imagination of a child in a playful way with a scary story; fine. Threatening with some boogey man they really need to be afraid of; abuse. Can't believe you actually have to ask this. We are talking about beating children. Of course this is an upsetting subject. Yeah I'm not agreeing with Pang. I grew up surrounded by kids that believed they'd go to hell for disobeying God/their parents/whatever authority figure (serving as a proxy for a parent) and would cry to me about how they fretted for my soul and how horrible it would be never seeing my loved ones again and all that, so yeah it's easy for me to remember/imagine. I wouldn't personally, but the law is perfectly fine with it. If you tell your kid they'll go to hell for disobeying you and I spank my kid and tell them darting in traffic will get them hurt worse than the spank hurts only one of us is at risk of losing a kid or our freedom. Hence my earlier point about the disappointment they'll feel when they realize the rational discourse you taught them is often practically useless in their interactions with other authority figures in adulthood. I don't get what you are trying to say. Do you know what you are trying to say yourself? If what you are trying to say is that telling your children they, or their friends, will burn in hell is not equally illegal as spanking, you'd be correct. And I would support a ban for either, though spanking is much more straightforward of a violation. If what you are trying to say is that you should give your kid the impression that you are a crazy, delusional, irrational parent, because the world is like that so the kid better learn how to deal with those kinds of people so they won't feel the 'disappointment you describe, then well you are a crazy, delusional, irrational person that should never have kids. And to me, you are on the border of where kids should be taken away from you if you had them. Oh and so we all do agree that the only situation where spanking is morally ok is when it is literally the only way to save a kid from a deadly accident? Yes, we all agree. Nice. Good to hear we all agree that spanking is under all practical situations never moral. You people realize that parents that spank lose their calm and just lash out, right. And then they make up some rationalization later, right?
I don't know what your issue is but my point is that a lot of bad parenting is "acceptable" and slapping a kids hand away from a stove or swatting a kids behind for running in traffic is far from the worst and is even reasonable imo.
As to the world part my point is there's justification in kids learning early that authority doesn't always respond/resort to reason and it's one of the more legitimate (despite laws technically favoring scaring them with God's wrath and eternal damnation) ways to teach them this by example.
That's it.
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The fact that you can say "far from the worst and even reasonable" after I already put so much doubt on your ability to string together coherent thoughts says enough. There is so many levels in between those two statements. Wow
Doing the worst thing to your child or being a good parent; I guess you think it is reasonable for a parent to treat their kid how they believe a crazy violent cop would treat a criminal [MOD EDIT: slur removed]. Because you never know when your kid is going to run into a cop, right? They better be ready then!
I truly hope you are just on drugs posting this. But you have a track record, it is insane.
User was banned for this post.
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@Muliphein do you have kids? Have you ever worked with kids?
I don't have kids of my own, but I have worked with hundreds. Most kids listen to adults and can be reasoned with. Then you get the exceptions. The ones that have 0 respect for authority, do not negotiate, and are a straight up danger to their peers. It is very clear that they've never been spanked and also walk all over their parents. They're the type of kids that when a parent puts them in a "timeout", they say, "Fuck you mom/dad" and do whatever they want anyways.
The best kids I know seem to have a slight fear of authority. They love being treated with respect and respond very well to it, but you can also tell that they have a fear of a slightly raised voice. They're not beaten shells, but it's pretty clear that at some point they learned a little fear of authority and from my perspective, came out a lot better for it. I don't know that they've ever been spanked, but they learned that fear somehow.
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overall, Muliphein starts off with some screwy assumptions ascribing meaning to <happenings>, with no support(moral/logical/scientific)(France banned spanking ~2months ago so yea, i hadn't refreshed my database since then i guess)): The vote on the law is accompanied by a request for a report on the state of educational violence in France and accompanying measures for parents. The document is to be submitted to Parliament by 1 September 2019. i'm curious how would that pan out.
my guess is that overall, parents will stop having children(not that they really want to have them now...).
if i were a legislator on this:
- i'd separate kids into: introvert driven and extrovert driven(temperament seen/documented/studied in toddlers);
- i'd put introverts into the 'do not hit'(except fringe/extreme happenings) category;
- i'd separate extroverts into dominant extroverts and submissive extroverts;
- i'd have the dominant extroverts into the 'can be spanked' category and the submissive ones into the "can be shaken/agitated/jolted' category;
(it's because extroverts can only get value from the outside(from example, from spanking)
all that, coupled with the age-based neurological evolution of the human brain; and i wouldn't make it into a law but view it like more of a civic/educational issue.
Edit: on the meaning, i'm on this Pain caused by emotional distress is more deeply felt and longer lasting than that caused by physical injuries, according to a new study. (from the paper "When Hurt Will Not Heal: Exploring the Capacity to Relive Social and Physical Pain")
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On August 17 2019 16:12 RenSC2 wrote:
@Muliphein do you have kids? Have you ever worked with kids?
I don't have kids of my own, but I have worked with hundreds. Most kids listen to adults and can be reasoned with. Then you get the exceptions. The ones that have 0 respect for authority, do not negotiate, and are a straight up danger to their peers. It is very clear that they've never been spanked and also walk all over their parents. They're the type of kids that when a parent puts them in a "timeout", they say, "Fuck you mom/dad" and do whatever they want anyways.
The best kids I know seem to have a slight fear of authority. They love being treated with respect and respond very well to it, but you can also tell that they have a fear of a slightly raised voice. They're not beaten shells, but it's pretty clear that at some point they learned a little fear of authority and from my perspective, came out a lot better for it. I don't know that they've ever been spanked, but they learned that fear somehow.
You wouldn't be allowed to work with children in a civilized country if the people that make your responsible for those children had read this.
Yes, there is more to bad parenting than spanking. But nothing you say means anything. BTW, you have no idea if the kids you deal with are spanked by their parents. If you get spanked and you are this "fuck mom/fuck dad" type of kid, and then suddenly you realize you aren't that much weaker than your mother anymore, then what?
xM(Z , the only thing I get out your post is "Sorry, I was wrong on France, you were right." and "I randomly put all kids in either of two categories, and then I randomly spank one but not the other."
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it's all you needed to get; the rest you should follow or get ostracized by society 'cause quoting studies for you would be a waste of my time.
i'd have to spank you first then you'd be open to <inputs>.
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@muliphein It seems that you have no experience working with kids, yet spew a bunch of nonsense like you're an expert. Luckily, you're not making decisions on such things. You should probably try working with kids before you pretend to know what you're talking about.
In my state, it is legal to spank your own kids as long as you're not leaving bruises. Learned that in Mandatory Reporter training. No, I cannot hit someone else's kid for any reason and haven't. Also for the record, there are mandatory reporter laws in the US, at least in my state. That includes a process of reporting if you suspect abuse that you must follow. Then they follow up and do an investigation. So probably not too different from the Scandinavian stuff, but not quite as extreme.
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I think light spanking(your own kids) is fine and don't see anything wrong with it, but who know's maybe there is some studies that show differently.
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I think its a bad idea and should be discouraged but at the same time it depends on the kid and the context i guess.
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The US is the only member of the UN that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child. So what is legal in certain US states has no moral value at all for that and other reasons.
If you are a parent with authority over your child, these examples of children just refusing to listen never come up. And if they do come up it is because you have no authority and spanking won't change that.
Saying that you as a parent either put the kid in charge or you spank is another famous false dichotomy.
I have no idea where RenSC2's knowledge of my personal situation comes from and no idea why his opinion on this, which is starkly opposed by everyone that is even close to child pedagogy, including in the US. In the US as a professional working with children you are taught that spanking is harmful to a child. In every state. There is no debate at all on spanking.
And in fact, I have never heard an actual argument for why spanking should help a child learn something. In fact, I have never seen a supporter of spanking show a sign that they themselves actually believe that a child learns something from spanking.
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If you are a parent with authority over your child, these examples of children just refusing to listen never come up. here, if you'd knew some of the studies, you'd know that submissive mothers give birth to dominant children.
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dominant does not listen to submissive but responds to power and example(spanking is power).
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I don't know what you mean by 'respond to power'.
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EPT
