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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1741

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21528 Posts
August 07 2019 20:18 GMT
#34801
Isn't a problem with getting part of their salary in shares for low level employees that they actually need money in hand to spend on living expenses?
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
CatharsisUT
Profile Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 20:26:40
August 07 2019 20:25 GMT
#34802
On August 08 2019 05:18 Gorsameth wrote:
Isn't a problem with getting part of their salary in shares for low level employees that they actually need money in hand to spend on living expenses?


Yes, which is why it is uncommon for low-level employees. Share programs are generally used for executives or for front-office employees they want to incentivize to stay for the long-term (as many of them have lengthy vesting periods).
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5278 Posts
August 07 2019 20:37 GMT
#34803
co-ops, why no one talks about co-ops?.
https://ncbaclusa.coop/resources/
Guided by a set of 7 Cooperative Principles, co-ops are owned and governed by their members—not stockholders. The 65,000 co-op establishments in the U.S. range in size from small, local stores to $30 billion multi-national organizations. Cooperative businesses operate across virtually all industries, or sector
generally, co-ops are still actively negotiating their being model but given the right people, looks to be the replacement(if one is desired) for CEOs driven companies.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9489 Posts
August 07 2019 21:06 GMT
#34804
On August 08 2019 05:03 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2019 04:54 CorsairHero wrote:
On August 08 2019 03:43 KwarK wrote:
On August 08 2019 03:20 CorsairHero wrote:
On August 08 2019 01:19 Excludos wrote:
On August 08 2019 01:15 CorsairHero wrote:
On August 07 2019 23:38 JimmiC wrote:
I was chatting with a buddy last night about CEO pay and we came up with the idea of making it a rule that a CEO could only be paid (total comp not just salary) 50x (could be 20 could be 100) his average employee's salary. All the sudden instead of making every decision to try to inflate stock price he would be trying to make his company viable while paying his people the most.

It would be bad for Ceo's and bad for stock prices but I don't know that it would be bad for the economy because all the employees would have more cash, which at lest in NA, always leads to much more spending.


Likely this is not the ticket. But I do think restricting how much CEO's get paid, and changing their motivations is key.

Most major companies award stock through a gift or some purchase program. Employees can get in on the game as well. If the CEO's wealth is going up through stock appreciation or dividends, then shareholders are as well.


I'm gonna need you to bring me a source on the fact that most major companies award stock to regular employees, or even allow them to buy it through a purchase program that isn't the stock market.


Looked at another way, 36% of employees working for companies with stock (this excludes government employers, nonprofits, partnerships, etc.) owned stock or options in their companies. This means that approximately 32 million Americans own employer stock through ESOPs, options, stock purchase plans, and 401(k) plans.

Top result on google: https://www.nceo.org/articles/statistical-profile-employee-ownership (no access though)

401k plans is the misleading part there. Through my 401k plan I own a nonzero amount of all US stocks but a negligible amount of any one stock. That doesn’t make me materially invested in the profits of my company.

The number of employees with access to discounted company stock as compensation is significantly lower.

Half of public companies have some some equity plan.

Available to all employees?

More than half of public companies that provide equity compensation to workers offer an employee stock purchase plan, according to the National Association of Stock Plan Professionals.

Fidelity found that only one-third of employees who have access to such plans use them.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/14/employee-stock-purchase-plans-are-underutilized.html
© Current year.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
August 07 2019 21:13 GMT
#34805
--- Nuked ---
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18820 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 21:29:46
August 07 2019 21:28 GMT
#34806
On August 08 2019 04:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2019 03:23 farvacola wrote:
The Hayekian error in arguing that pricing is the de facto mechanism for both micro and macro transactional equilibrium is actually remarkably similar to Marx’s error in positing that money is the end product of capitalistic equilibrium. Money and pricing aren’t emergent manifestations of a perpetual calculation’s result, but are instead the situs of a great deal of conflict themselves!


It's funny. I actually ascribe immense credit to Hayek for tackling the epistemological limitations involved in managing and making decisions in highly complex, modern societies. It's a vital problem to this day and he was one of the first Western public intellectuals, to my knowledge, who couched it in non-academic terms. But it's clear in retrospect that "The Use of Knowledge in Society" assumes rational choice theory would work out the inherent kinks in how knowledge was unequally dispersed in the aggregate.

Besides the price gouging of monopolies, his theory fails to account for how knowledge acts as a contagion - it can be recursively inundated instead of distributed through a spectrum - through limited channels. Not to mention how exchange of information between individuals functions as social control and social signaling, leading what constitutes collective wisdom within a domain to converge and subsequently skew pricing as a mechanism that supposedly "reveals true preferences" (e.g. the role of derivatives in driving the mortgage crisis).


As it much pains me, I can't deny that Hayek played an important role, as you point out. Nevertheless, there's a nice dose of pomo irony in the fact that Hayek fairly accurately described the epistemic limitations that fundamentally break command economies, only for his own theory to fall victim to its epistemic limitations. Then again, there's likely something to be said for how that criticism can be levied at practically every historical thinker :D
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9132 Posts
August 07 2019 21:46 GMT
#34807
On August 08 2019 05:37 xM(Z wrote:
co-ops, why no one talks about co-ops?.
https://ncbaclusa.coop/resources/
Show nested quote +
Guided by a set of 7 Cooperative Principles, co-ops are owned and governed by their members—not stockholders. The 65,000 co-op establishments in the U.S. range in size from small, local stores to $30 billion multi-national organizations. Cooperative businesses operate across virtually all industries, or sector
generally, co-ops are still actively negotiating their being model but given the right people, looks to be the replacement(if one is desired) for CEOs driven companies.


What's the difference between co-ops and those usually inefficient worker owned entities we had left in eastern Europe after communism? Are those the the same things?
You're now breathing manually
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 22:10:04
August 07 2019 21:53 GMT
#34808
They are not. Co-ops are profitable. Or at least I would presume they are since they are effectively independent enterprises that don't get state support. The only real difference is that the profits go to the staff. It's not really something that can be legislated into existance nationwide, short of a couple of revolutions.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 22:20:11
August 07 2019 22:17 GMT
#34809
--- Nuked ---
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 22:34:14
August 07 2019 22:25 GMT
#34810
Why would all owners of a business, or all shareholders voluntarily vote to lose a source of income? Co-ops rarely come into existance by being bequeathed by owners, and when they do, it is usually because those owners have socialist beliefs.

When I wrote "It's not really something that can be legislated into existance nationwide" I mean it as an instant "solution" to pay inequality. I suppose it is possible that legislation can make non co-operatives so unprofitable that the sole business ownership model for a business will be cooperatives, but essentially, there will need such a change in public attitude across the entire country on the level of the birth of nationalism that such legislation can possibly pass.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
August 07 2019 22:59 GMT
#34811
--- Nuked ---
ThaddeusK
Profile Joined July 2008
United States231 Posts
August 08 2019 11:16 GMT
#34812
On August 08 2019 06:06 CorsairHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2019 05:03 KwarK wrote:
On August 08 2019 04:54 CorsairHero wrote:
On August 08 2019 03:43 KwarK wrote:
On August 08 2019 03:20 CorsairHero wrote:
On August 08 2019 01:19 Excludos wrote:
On August 08 2019 01:15 CorsairHero wrote:
On August 07 2019 23:38 JimmiC wrote:
I was chatting with a buddy last night about CEO pay and we came up with the idea of making it a rule that a CEO could only be paid (total comp not just salary) 50x (could be 20 could be 100) his average employee's salary. All the sudden instead of making every decision to try to inflate stock price he would be trying to make his company viable while paying his people the most.

It would be bad for Ceo's and bad for stock prices but I don't know that it would be bad for the economy because all the employees would have more cash, which at lest in NA, always leads to much more spending.


Likely this is not the ticket. But I do think restricting how much CEO's get paid, and changing their motivations is key.

Most major companies award stock through a gift or some purchase program. Employees can get in on the game as well. If the CEO's wealth is going up through stock appreciation or dividends, then shareholders are as well.


I'm gonna need you to bring me a source on the fact that most major companies award stock to regular employees, or even allow them to buy it through a purchase program that isn't the stock market.


Looked at another way, 36% of employees working for companies with stock (this excludes government employers, nonprofits, partnerships, etc.) owned stock or options in their companies. This means that approximately 32 million Americans own employer stock through ESOPs, options, stock purchase plans, and 401(k) plans.

Top result on google: https://www.nceo.org/articles/statistical-profile-employee-ownership (no access though)

401k plans is the misleading part there. Through my 401k plan I own a nonzero amount of all US stocks but a negligible amount of any one stock. That doesn’t make me materially invested in the profits of my company.

The number of employees with access to discounted company stock as compensation is significantly lower.

Half of public companies have some some equity plan.

Available to all employees?

Show nested quote +
More than half of public companies that provide equity compensation to workers offer an employee stock purchase plan, according to the National Association of Stock Plan Professionals.

Fidelity found that only one-third of employees who have access to such plans use them.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/14/employee-stock-purchase-plans-are-underutilized.html


"Half of public companies that provide equity compensation" seems rather different than "Half of public companies" and the article has no mention of the percentage of public companies which provide equity compensation.
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-08 15:49:50
August 08 2019 15:48 GMT
#34813
Apparently Andrew Yang played Protoss
He's the candidate proposing Universal basic income of $1000 a month for every adult.

Does him having played protoss make him a better or worse candidate than before knowing that info?
BroodWar toss usually means noob :p

It's at 51:14 in this video:
+ Show Spoiler [mentioning Starcraft in H3 podcast] +
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
August 08 2019 15:52 GMT
#34814
--- Nuked ---
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
August 08 2019 16:30 GMT
#34815
I hope he 1a2a3a's all the way to the white house.
Ryzel
Profile Joined December 2012
United States521 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-08 17:27:53
August 08 2019 17:26 GMT
#34816
“To give rural America the support it needs, we must construct additional pylons to get our national power grid established in the more rural regions of our country!”
Hakuna Matata B*tches
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
August 08 2019 17:43 GMT
#34817
I'm all for Yang Gang here, MATH! No, but seriously, he's been actively getting his name out there, and known. I'm glad for it.
Life?
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
August 08 2019 17:59 GMT
#34818
He's on the path to do what Bernie's been doing. Even if he never wins, he's been succeeding at raising new conversations, and getting us to push for more and more from the candidates we actually accept.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-08 18:08:32
August 08 2019 18:07 GMT
#34819
On August 09 2019 02:59 NewSunshine wrote:
He's on the path to do what Bernie's been doing. Even if he never wins, he's been succeeding at raising new conversations, and getting us to push for more and more from the candidates we actually accept.


No. Medicare for all, free college, a living wage and a political revolution are real conversations Bernie (and his supporters) fundamentally shifted the discourse on (even if Democratic politicians are using empty rhetoric with no intention of following through).

Yang has relentlessly pushed (a shitty) UBI and self-deprecating racist jokes to make white people comfortable. Neither of which are going to be part of future campaigns or even seriously entertained (outside of a way to make austerity palatable).

Yang is awful imo.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-08 18:36:33
August 08 2019 18:35 GMT
#34820
Hours before Trump arrived in El Paso ICE was performing a massive raid in Mississippi. It appears it may have been retribution for workers defending themselves from sexual harassment and abusive racism. This exposes what is said to be a prevalent issue of rampant violations of workers rights insured with threats of raids like this one.

ICE Raids Miss. Plant After $3.75 Million Sexual Harassment Settlement

Today, ICE carried out what is believed to be the largest immigration raid in decades when they detained 680 workers at seven poultry plants in Morton, Mississippi.

The workers, many of them members of the United Food and Commercial Workers union (UFCW), were employed by a company called Koch Foods Inc, which employs 13,000 workers throughout the US. (Koch Foods Inc. has no connection or relation to the billionaire political donor Koch Brothers).

The UFCW, which represents workers at the plant, has been meeting with community groups and immigrants rights activists to mobilize community and legal support on behalf of the workers.

As buses full of poultry workers arrived pulled up to the Mississippi National Guard base at Flowood, Mississippi 70 family members and supporters families gathered shouting at the armed guards, “Let Them Go! Let Them Go!” as workers were taken into the makeshift detention facility.

The detention suffered by immigrants is yet another abuse suffered by immigrant poultry workers employed by Koch Foods Inc in Morton, Mississippi.

In 2018, following a nearly eight-year-long legal battle, Koch Foods Inc. settled a $3.75 million brought by the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission against Koch Food Inc at the plant. The lawsuit alleged that Koch Foods Inc supervisors engaged in both racial and sexual harassment of Latina workers at its Morton, Mississippi plant.

The lawsuit brought by the EEOC against Koch Food Inc’s alleged “that supervisors touched and/or made sexually suggestive comments to female Hispanic employees, hit Hispanic employees and charged many of them money for normal everyday work activities.”

As part of its settlement, Koch Foods Inc. agreed to a three-year federal consent decree to change its discriminatory practices. As part of the consent decree, Koch Foods Inc. was forced to create a 24-hour-a-day bilingual hotline for workers to use to file complaints.

Many immigrants rights advocates have speculated that workers are targeted for raids after their facilities get investigated for worker abuse.


paydayreport.com
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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