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On July 20 2019 20:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 20:28 Slydie wrote:On July 20 2019 19:53 Uldridge wrote:
I think capitalism will eat itself once the automation / AI revolution is in full swing. Either that or we'll have a harsh dystopian outcome. The reaction of the demographic at risk during that time needs to be the correct one.. because only they will have the power to change their fate. We'll be ok, we have a lot of experience in inventing new jobs when old ones disappear or are moved to lowcost countries. Capitalism goes nowhere. You can try to limit how much power the richest have but I fail to see how strict regulations can fully replace market mechanisms. The market will always find a way, as all the failed attempts have shown so far.Another unresolveable problem is potential corruption of the socialist system and that it is essentially anti democratic. You can say capitalism can exploit human weaknesses but strict socialism fails to take them into account and are doomed to fail. (I am not talking about social democratic solutions which are firmly within regulated capitalism.) The market has already failed many, many people immensely.
How so? As long as there are people who exchange goods and services, there will be a market. Every time you spend or earn a penny you are part of the market. There is simply no way around it.
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On July 21 2019 20:28 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 20:59 Gahlo wrote:On July 20 2019 20:28 Slydie wrote:On July 20 2019 19:53 Uldridge wrote:
I think capitalism will eat itself once the automation / AI revolution is in full swing. Either that or we'll have a harsh dystopian outcome. The reaction of the demographic at risk during that time needs to be the correct one.. because only they will have the power to change their fate. We'll be ok, we have a lot of experience in inventing new jobs when old ones disappear or are moved to lowcost countries. Capitalism goes nowhere. You can try to limit how much power the richest have but I fail to see how strict regulations can fully replace market mechanisms. The market will always find a way, as all the failed attempts have shown so far.Another unresolveable problem is potential corruption of the socialist system and that it is essentially anti democratic. You can say capitalism can exploit human weaknesses but strict socialism fails to take them into account and are doomed to fail. (I am not talking about social democratic solutions which are firmly within regulated capitalism.) The market has already failed many, many people immensely. How so? As long as there are people who exchange goods and services, there will be a market. Every time you spend or earn a penny you are part of the market. There is simply no way around it.
Since this is the second time it's been brought up, when I said market I was using short hand for "free market". For as much as utopian world I like the barter system, I know it isn't feasible.
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On July 21 2019 21:12 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 20:28 Slydie wrote:On July 20 2019 20:59 Gahlo wrote:On July 20 2019 20:28 Slydie wrote:On July 20 2019 19:53 Uldridge wrote:
I think capitalism will eat itself once the automation / AI revolution is in full swing. Either that or we'll have a harsh dystopian outcome. The reaction of the demographic at risk during that time needs to be the correct one.. because only they will have the power to change their fate. We'll be ok, we have a lot of experience in inventing new jobs when old ones disappear or are moved to lowcost countries. Capitalism goes nowhere. You can try to limit how much power the richest have but I fail to see how strict regulations can fully replace market mechanisms. The market will always find a way, as all the failed attempts have shown so far.Another unresolveable problem is potential corruption of the socialist system and that it is essentially anti democratic. You can say capitalism can exploit human weaknesses but strict socialism fails to take them into account and are doomed to fail. (I am not talking about social democratic solutions which are firmly within regulated capitalism.) The market has already failed many, many people immensely. How so? As long as there are people who exchange goods and services, there will be a market. Every time you spend or earn a penny you are part of the market. There is simply no way around it. Since this is the second time it's been brought up, when I said market I was using short hand for "free market". For as much as utopian world I like the barter system, I know it isn't feasible.
I doubt anyone would really like a thing such a truely free unregulated market. That would make things like cocaine candy and slavery legal. It is all on long scale from communism to anarchy with every shade in between somewhere. I will look into the Barter system.
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A free market doesn't mean that the market takes precedence over other laws. An unregulated market would have not have legal slavery if the concept of owning other humans is unrecognised lawfully.
Usually when people talk about free market, they aren't talking about a market ignoring laws that already exists, but a market free from monopoly laws and the like. For instance having medical regulation on foodstuffs and a free market can exists side by side; the free market simply exists on without the cocaine candy.
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On July 21 2019 23:04 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 16:31 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 21 2019 10:52 JimmiC wrote:On July 21 2019 10:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2019 10:24 KwarK wrote:On July 21 2019 09:41 JimmiC wrote:On July 21 2019 09:27 KwarK wrote:
Joking aside do y’all really not read GH as someone far more interested in fairness than pragmatism? That’s my read on him. He’s Boxer on Animal Farm, not Napoleon. He’s not going to be robosigning death warrants, he’s going to be agonizing over them. The lack of pragmatism that makes him refuse to accept incremental change is the lack of pragmatism that’ll stop any revolution led by him from getting off the ground. So it is that I am the only one that takes him at his word on why I get frustrated him with him when the rest of you don't. That makes a lot of sense. Because when you even start to do the calculations on the amount of deaths that would happen in killing all the capital class, armies and supporters it gets very disturbing. And that does not even take into account the amount of environmental destruction that would occur. Kind of odd how you can constantly post about murdering the "capitalist class" and there is no consequence, where as if you were talking about wiping out any other group of people we wouldn't allow it on this website. I guess that is not true, we have also allowed him to talk about wiping out Israel. But I guess as long as no one is taking anything he says at face value it is no more dangerous than a guy standing on a corner yelling about the end of the world if we don't stop the jews. Ownership is what separates the capitalist class from the proletariat and those are just sacred pieces of paper. You don’t need to kill the Walton family to turn Walmart into a worker cooperative, you simply need to stop paying dividends to their shares. I agree. Well then perfect we can stop the whole bloody revolution posting at every turn. GH do realize that in the last month you have wrote the word revolution is 30 separate posts? Enough, stop being a edgelord. If you don't mean that you need to take up arms and kill the "capital class" stop saying it, it takes away from your actual point, which might actually be worth while with out all the bullshit added so you can be "out there" or "woke" or what ever it is you are after. You yourself wrote the word revolution in more than 30 different posts over the past 7 weeks (not including quotes).  I know right! and 21 in the random time period I picked.😂 As I mentioned above, just talking about the topics referenced over and over in the thread. I'd love to move on because as Kwark put it so eloquently we are not getting anywhere even after all this discussion! But their doesn't seem to be a another topic that can't be brought back to revolution required, so I guess we shall see.
This seems a bit of a double standard seeing how tediously conversations with the two main Conservative posters go exactly the same way every time but people rise to it anyway.
The trouble you have with GH is that you don't really counteract what he says.
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Norway28689 Posts
The problem is that this is your interpretation of what he writes. I've read the same posts and they don't read even remotely close to what you are suggesting that they do. I mean there's plenty I disagree with GH on, but your representation of what he's writing is just a parody. Honestly best for everyone involved if you stop trying to understand and engage with him if this is the best you can do.
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So we're left with this, either the moderators, who have warned and banned GH for years, suddenly decided that they love him so much that they need to let him advocate genocide, or... you're... wrong?
Choose your fighter!
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United States42971 Posts
I’m just looking forward to taking 40k quotes and inserting GH into them.
“Those who allow the kulak to live share in the crime of its existence”
- GH, circa M36
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United States42971 Posts
When the Soviet Union was removed from maps it didn't result in the death and displacement of the occupants. A one state solution to the Israel/Palestine problem would probably be best solved with the creation of a new state, rather than the continuation of one with the political and cultural legacy of Israel. I suspect that GH prefers that to genocide, even though he did once say in M38 "Suffer not the kulak to live".
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If you could grace us with quotes or proof the thread would probably be more understanding of your accusations. Right now you are painting him as some comic book villain.
And you should make sure not to use one of kwarks quotes accidentally.
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United States42971 Posts
On July 22 2019 03:02 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 02:54 KwarK wrote:
When the Soviet Union was removed from maps it didn't result in the death and displacement of the occupants. A one state solution to the Israel/Palestine problem would probably be best solved with the creation of a new state, rather than the continuation of one with the political and cultural legacy of Israel. I suspect that GH prefers that to genocide, even though he did once say in M38 "Suffer not the kulak to live". Why do suspect this? It is not what he has said. Or he may say it but then go, if that does not work violent removal. There is a odd benefit of the doubt that is given to him that is not given to other posters.
I do think it's reasonable to presume that GH is not currently in the planning stages of his strategy to kill all the Jews and just working out the details on teamliquid. You may disagree with that presumption if you wish. The reason I do not suspect it is because it sounds nonsensical and I try my best to maintain a sense of proportion. I think it's possible that you've gotten GH and Hitler confused, as so many people do.
Perhaps you should ask him yourself though.
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United States42971 Posts
On July 22 2019 03:21 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 03:16 KwarK wrote:On July 22 2019 03:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 22 2019 02:54 KwarK wrote:
When the Soviet Union was removed from maps it didn't result in the death and displacement of the occupants. A one state solution to the Israel/Palestine problem would probably be best solved with the creation of a new state, rather than the continuation of one with the political and cultural legacy of Israel. I suspect that GH prefers that to genocide, even though he did once say in M38 "Suffer not the kulak to live". Why do suspect this? It is not what he has said. Or he may say it but then go, if that does not work violent removal. There is a odd benefit of the doubt that is given to him that is not given to other posters. I do think it's reasonable to presume that GH is not currently in the planning stages of his strategy to kill all the Jews and just working out the details on teamliquid. You may disagree with that presumption if you wish. The reason I do not suspect it is because it sounds nonsensical and I try my best to maintain a sense of proportion. I think it's possible that you've gotten GH and Hitler confused, as so many people do. Perhaps you should ask him yourself though. I have, he does want to wipe Israel off the planet, and no not with education and love. None of his plans are about that. Why didn't you think xDaunts talk was Nonsensical or did you think he was actually going to find AOC and Humiliate her and so on? I mean lets not forget you didn't let him get into too much because you thought it was too "nonsensical" but he also thinks North Korea has the moral high ground over the USA.
If you were telling me that xDaunt had a plan to kill all the blacks I would suggest you were getting just as carried away as you are with GH.
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United States42971 Posts
On July 22 2019 03:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 03:25 KwarK wrote:On July 22 2019 03:21 JimmiC wrote:On July 22 2019 03:16 KwarK wrote:On July 22 2019 03:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 22 2019 02:54 KwarK wrote:
When the Soviet Union was removed from maps it didn't result in the death and displacement of the occupants. A one state solution to the Israel/Palestine problem would probably be best solved with the creation of a new state, rather than the continuation of one with the political and cultural legacy of Israel. I suspect that GH prefers that to genocide, even though he did once say in M38 "Suffer not the kulak to live". Why do suspect this? It is not what he has said. Or he may say it but then go, if that does not work violent removal. There is a odd benefit of the doubt that is given to him that is not given to other posters. I do think it's reasonable to presume that GH is not currently in the planning stages of his strategy to kill all the Jews and just working out the details on teamliquid. You may disagree with that presumption if you wish. The reason I do not suspect it is because it sounds nonsensical and I try my best to maintain a sense of proportion. I think it's possible that you've gotten GH and Hitler confused, as so many people do. Perhaps you should ask him yourself though. I have, he does want to wipe Israel off the planet, and no not with education and love. None of his plans are about that. Why didn't you think xDaunts talk was Nonsensical or did you think he was actually going to find AOC and Humiliate her and so on? I mean lets not forget you didn't let him get into too much because you thought it was too "nonsensical" but he also thinks North Korea has the moral high ground over the USA. If you were telling me that xDaunt had a plan to kill all the blacks I would suggest you were getting just as carried away as you are with GH. I'm not saying he has a plan for it. I think it is clear from the many conversations, and many posters who have asked him for anything resembling one know he has no plan for anything. He spews hate and I think a bunch of people here apologize for him because he says he is far left and for some reason people find that more appealing than far right. Despite the same basic message, his left is different from basically everyone else's left on here, much more hate much more violent. Just because it is "capitalist class" "White-club", "globalists" and whatever other terms he uses, he has created a scapegoat in his mind and he believes that if we can get rid of them (which means kill them since he uses the term violent, come on now) everything will be ok. What does that sound like if you change the terms to "immigrants", or "Muslims" or Jews? I bet we wouldn't be having this "does he really mean it conversation", but rather, what a horrible person we don't want him to be part of our community.
GH’s targets in my understanding are exploitative colonialism and capitalism, not people of any specific race, background, religion etc. He’s opposed to structures of oppression, not people. I’ve historically argued with him on the basis that those structures are so entrenched and powerful that the cure might be worse than the disease but I’ve never felt personal animosity coming from him based on my status as a beneficiary of the status quo. He may want to take my 401k but I don’t think he wants to take my life. Destroying white club doesn’t mean killing the members, it means creating a society where membership no longer has perks.
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On July 22 2019 03:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 03:38 JimmiC wrote:On July 22 2019 03:25 KwarK wrote:On July 22 2019 03:21 JimmiC wrote:On July 22 2019 03:16 KwarK wrote:On July 22 2019 03:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 22 2019 02:54 KwarK wrote:
When the Soviet Union was removed from maps it didn't result in the death and displacement of the occupants. A one state solution to the Israel/Palestine problem would probably be best solved with the creation of a new state, rather than the continuation of one with the political and cultural legacy of Israel. I suspect that GH prefers that to genocide, even though he did once say in M38 "Suffer not the kulak to live". Why do suspect this? It is not what he has said. Or he may say it but then go, if that does not work violent removal. There is a odd benefit of the doubt that is given to him that is not given to other posters. I do think it's reasonable to presume that GH is not currently in the planning stages of his strategy to kill all the Jews and just working out the details on teamliquid. You may disagree with that presumption if you wish. The reason I do not suspect it is because it sounds nonsensical and I try my best to maintain a sense of proportion. I think it's possible that you've gotten GH and Hitler confused, as so many people do. Perhaps you should ask him yourself though. I have, he does want to wipe Israel off the planet, and no not with education and love. None of his plans are about that. Why didn't you think xDaunts talk was Nonsensical or did you think he was actually going to find AOC and Humiliate her and so on? I mean lets not forget you didn't let him get into too much because you thought it was too "nonsensical" but he also thinks North Korea has the moral high ground over the USA. If you were telling me that xDaunt had a plan to kill all the blacks I would suggest you were getting just as carried away as you are with GH. I'm not saying he has a plan for it. I think it is clear from the many conversations, and many posters who have asked him for anything resembling one know he has no plan for anything. He spews hate and I think a bunch of people here apologize for him because he says he is far left and for some reason people find that more appealing than far right. Despite the same basic message, his left is different from basically everyone else's left on here, much more hate much more violent. Just because it is "capitalist class" "White-club", "globalists" and whatever other terms he uses, he has created a scapegoat in his mind and he believes that if we can get rid of them (which means kill them since he uses the term violent, come on now) everything will be ok. What does that sound like if you change the terms to "immigrants", or "Muslims" or Jews? I bet we wouldn't be having this "does he really mean it conversation", but rather, what a horrible person we don't want him to be part of our community. GH’s targets in my understanding are exploitative colonialism and capitalism, not people of any specific race, background, religion etc. He’s opposed to structures of oppression, not people. I’ve historically argued with him on the basis that those structures are so entrenched and powerful that the cure might be worse than the disease but I’ve never felt personal animosity coming from him based on my status as a beneficiary of the status quo. He may want to take my 401k but I don’t think he wants to take my life. Destroying white club doesn’t mean killing the members, it means creating a society where membership no longer has perks.
That about sums it up. I don't know how long you're going to entertain his line of argument but I don't think he's going to stop of his own volition.
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EPT
