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On July 18 2019 04:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I'll have to claim ignorance on that one. I'll defer that question to those who use such for their own politics.
Well if you won't define it, then I really cannot get what your are saying.
In American culture white = anglo, which is distinct from Mexican American. When I hear someone saying, "AOC is white AF" I hear some (likely white dude) "white-washing" a Latina.
While I don't personally know how she chooses to identify (and I do believe it's her choice), I'm pretty sure she isn't claiming to be of anglo descent... and so yes, I think that makes her "not white."
And so it is also clear you will never see/hear me back trump, or drink that kool-aid.
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On July 18 2019 09:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2019 08:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 18 2019 08:19 NewSunshine wrote:On July 18 2019 08:00 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Trump's campaign rally or whatever should be interesting tonight.... Or scary. If this administration has reached the phase where our president has no problems being openly racist, and his aides instantly respond to journalists by asking them what their ethnicity is before answering their questions, this might be the beginning of things getting a whole lot worse for minorities in America. They feel like they don't need plausible deniability anymore. And they've already done shit at rallies that makes me nervous for anyone nearby. I feel like Trump's blatant racism has been pretty much normalized for some time now; even candidate Trump was clearly racist (and even home-renter Trump was clearly racist back in the day). It's not like Trump has mastered some 4-D dogwhistling, where his discrimination has been very subtle and nuanced up until this outburst. I don't think Trump's going to change what he's been saying or thinking for decades now, because he's never held accountable. It's really up to the Republican Party to stop Trump, because the Democrats can't do it alone. Sadly, the Republicans often just fall in line, because they worry that speaking out against the leader of their party would be political suicide. Have you considered a lot of Republicans (and a non-insignificant number of Democrats, think Northam) may agree with the sentiments and just believe the dog-whistles are a superior strategy? "Agree with the sentiments" meaning that a lot of the support that Trump gets are also from true racists who agree with Trump on his xenophobic/ discriminatory rants? Absolutely. And it's definitely not just with Republican politicians, but a reasonable amount of regular American citizens who support Trump too. We even see support for Trump occasionally increase when he lashes out with these inappropriate rants: https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1UB2UD?fbclid=IwAR3V_xgDxHW3bNQb-saGl4-79I6UynxpnUx2L21FNmi6WgbRb1uFA8Y6IE0 Trump supporters are making it harder and harder to defend the claim that they're not actually racist but are merely happy to defend and enable a racist... The more I see and hear crap like this, the more I'm convinced that most Trump supporters truly are as deplorable as their orange god. They just lack the celebrity status, platform, and family wealth that Trump has. Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 08:34 JimmiC wrote:
I think it is pretty disingenuous to call all white people who are frightened of change racist. A while some are many are not. Many of the poor white low class Trump supporters don’t feel that they have been privileged and get extra angry when a rich person tells them that they just don’t get it because of x y z. That's definitely fair, and surely it wouldn't be impossible to find some counterexamples to the claim that all white people and/or conservatives and/or Trump supporters are explicitly racist. I'd imagine that there's a set of Trump supporters, for example, who feel like Trump's ignorance and discrimination are less important in the grand scheme of things than a specific view Trump has on some other policy that is more relevant to that set of supporters. (Plenty of voters, on all sides of the political spectrum, are single-issue voters anyway, so people may only care about guns or abortion, for example, and not pay any attention to discriminatory rhetoric.) A lot of it comes down to weighing the pros and cons of a candidate or president, and I'd imagine that if you're white and not directly feeling the impact of Trump's words aimed against non-whites, you may not consider it a big deal. To your point about working class/ poor whites not understanding their privilege and being offended by that sentiment because they interpret that as "your life must have been easy" when it clearly hasn't, I agree that's a message that is often not made as perfectly clear as it should be, and being told about white privilege by a non-white person in a higher social class certainly can confuse and piss off hard-working, poor, white people. Show nested quote +The most success I have had is pointing out shared experiences of unfairness and then explained that white privilege is not that all white people get to be rich and don’t have hardship it is that they are given the benifits of the doubt. If you are a White person getting on a plane no one thinks you are going to blow it up compared to someone who looks Muslim. If your a White person walking into a mall you don’t have the “theft prevention” staff follow you like you do if you Indigenous. If you are walking down the street people don’t cross to the other side (unless you are bald and all tatted up).
These types of things often people can relate to because they have maybe done them themselves. They can’t relate to the efonmic stuff because many of them are in just as shitty or shittier situation than people of various colours. They also don’t care about the bunch of white people that have benefited because those white people also fucked them. That is why the myth Trump created that he is like them (when really he is a spoiled rich kid who oppressed and screws people poorer than them) is so powerful. They are sick of hearing how good they have it when they can’t afford health care, a new car and whatever and they see “plenty” of people of various colours doing better than them. I think those are really good examples, although I've also seen some people try to justify that kind of discrimination by saying that the black person is statistically more likely to rob or jump you anyway, or that Muslim people are more likely to suicide bomb anyway, so that's it's okay to prejudge those groups when you see them in specific locations. When I'm given that defense, I try to come up with a stereotypical prejudice that would affect the individual defending these "precautions", with something like "So then surely we should ban- or at least cavity search daily- all white students or male students from going to school, because they're much more likely to shoot up the school than other demographics?" Show nested quote +If the American left stopped shitting on them so hard all the time and judging them they would likely all vote left. It is very strange that in the US so many union and blue collar workers support the right basically everywhere else this is the lefts stronghold. Trump has basically weaponized indemnity politics to get people to vote against their own economic interests just so that they don’t have to have wealthier people tell them how good they actually have it. Are they, though? I agree that white people could definitely feel like they're not being focused on as much as other groups (and it's obviously because they're not facing daily discrimination and systemic violence, but white people are blissfully ignorant of this so they take it personally that they're not the main recipient of these messages), but the only party that attempts to help the poor and working-class families- regardless of skin color- is the Democratic party. Perhaps the Democratic candidates really need to speak more slowly and clearly about how healthcare for everyone includes white people, how minimum wage increases include white people, and how a cleaner, better, more educated country helps white people too. As a white guy, I can connect the dots that these things will apply to me, but I guess a lot of other people need more hand-holding in terms of the explanations of various political platforms. This seemed to be the underlying thesis for why so many white people got so offended by groups asserting that black lives matter too.
The problem is that "well this policy will help everyone" isn't an acceptable response to any minority group. We (the left) are adamant that we need specific policies to address black issues, female issues, LGBTQ issues, etc., yet we just tell poor rural white folk to suck it up and ride the wave.
So even though Republican policies dont do anything good for poor white rural communities, they at least speak to them a lot better. It feels like they care to those communities while it feels like Democrats dont give a damn. That's why we lose that demographic so badly. We put no effort into addressing their issues.
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On July 18 2019 06:59 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 05:40 Gahlo wrote:On July 18 2019 05:00 JimmiC wrote:
By making the angry and overly simplistic argument GH is you are pushing people who feel threatened by change onto the side of racism instead of understanding why they feel that way and then trying to get them to understand why they need not feel that way. The missing step of acknowledging and understanding is huge.
Saying your black on a message board to gain credibility in regards to everyone else than yelling at everyone does not accomplish this. It creates divide. We have plenty of people on these boards who are not "white" both announced and unannounced. Many who don't share his beliefs that are treated like facts shoved down peoples throats and than tries to race shame before any actual discussion can happen.
Calling a person a racist is one of the quickest ways to ruin any chance of understanding, and if your goal was to change their mind eventually you have no shot. I guess if your goal is to start a violent bloody "revolution" the strategy makes some sense. On the contrary, it adds perspective to somebody's opinion that should be taken account of when thinking about what they say - even if not ultimately accepting it. The censorship of the black experience is why things like kneeling for the anthem happens and why fucking r/BlackPeopleTwitter has to create Country Club threads where non-black/approved posters aren't allowed to comment because some fucknuts from T_D wanna yell 13%/52% all over the place. If you don't allow minority groups to express their opinions in a way suitable to delicate tendencies then it will only escalate to be heard. As for solving actual issues that white people have, the best course of action is to just help the poor. However, some people don't want that because helping "the poor" helps non-whites more than whites and eventually we'll get to SOCIALISM BAD. If we need to get hoity toity white about it, we need to seriously think about incorporating a bit of noblesse oblige when it comes to the inequality of our society. Hold your horses I’m not censoring anything. I’m saying saying your black is not a trump card you can just play and then somehow become the authority on everyone’s experience. You can to your own and as you said it can provide context. It does not make you an expert in the Indigenous plights in Canada it doesn’t make you the authority on Black people or Brown people in Brazil. It also doesn’t make you the authority on all Black people in America. We have had other Black posters put this out there to get shammed and insulted. Having a wealthy Black American tell you your experiences are wrong because you don’t know what your people have been through is super frustrating, probably the height of ignorance when he also tells others what there race is how they should feel. His experiences are not wrong and he is welcome to share them but they are not true for everyone and there are many people on here of different experience and races. Things like actively capitalizing Black and lower case for White when discussing race shows that someone is not out to stop racism but rather to start fights and likely spread hate. That it is not the common hate does not mean that we should ignore it and not call it out for fear of him calling us racists.
I capitalize Black because due to slavery many black in America people have no idea of their ethnic past other than "some place in Africa". To me it is the equivalent of saying I'm ethnically English. I don't capitalize white because it doesn't really mean anything and I hate the origins of the term.
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On July 18 2019 09:27 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 09:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 18 2019 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2019 08:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 18 2019 08:19 NewSunshine wrote:On July 18 2019 08:00 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Trump's campaign rally or whatever should be interesting tonight.... Or scary. If this administration has reached the phase where our president has no problems being openly racist, and his aides instantly respond to journalists by asking them what their ethnicity is before answering their questions, this might be the beginning of things getting a whole lot worse for minorities in America. They feel like they don't need plausible deniability anymore. And they've already done shit at rallies that makes me nervous for anyone nearby. I feel like Trump's blatant racism has been pretty much normalized for some time now; even candidate Trump was clearly racist (and even home-renter Trump was clearly racist back in the day). It's not like Trump has mastered some 4-D dogwhistling, where his discrimination has been very subtle and nuanced up until this outburst. I don't think Trump's going to change what he's been saying or thinking for decades now, because he's never held accountable. It's really up to the Republican Party to stop Trump, because the Democrats can't do it alone. Sadly, the Republicans often just fall in line, because they worry that speaking out against the leader of their party would be political suicide. Have you considered a lot of Republicans (and a non-insignificant number of Democrats, think Northam) may agree with the sentiments and just believe the dog-whistles are a superior strategy? "Agree with the sentiments" meaning that a lot of the support that Trump gets are also from true racists who agree with Trump on his xenophobic/ discriminatory rants? Absolutely. And it's definitely not just with Republican politicians, but a reasonable amount of regular American citizens who support Trump too. We even see support for Trump occasionally increase when he lashes out with these inappropriate rants: https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1UB2UD?fbclid=IwAR3V_xgDxHW3bNQb-saGl4-79I6UynxpnUx2L21FNmi6WgbRb1uFA8Y6IE0 Trump supporters are making it harder and harder to defend the claim that they're not actually racist but are merely happy to defend and enable a racist... The more I see and hear crap like this, the more I'm convinced that most Trump supporters truly are as deplorable as their orange god. They just lack the celebrity status, platform, and family wealth that Trump has. On July 18 2019 08:34 JimmiC wrote:
I think it is pretty disingenuous to call all white people who are frightened of change racist. A while some are many are not. Many of the poor white low class Trump supporters don’t feel that they have been privileged and get extra angry when a rich person tells them that they just don’t get it because of x y z. That's definitely fair, and surely it wouldn't be impossible to find some counterexamples to the claim that all white people and/or conservatives and/or Trump supporters are explicitly racist. I'd imagine that there's a set of Trump supporters, for example, who feel like Trump's ignorance and discrimination are less important in the grand scheme of things than a specific view Trump has on some other policy that is more relevant to that set of supporters. (Plenty of voters, on all sides of the political spectrum, are single-issue voters anyway, so people may only care about guns or abortion, for example, and not pay any attention to discriminatory rhetoric.) A lot of it comes down to weighing the pros and cons of a candidate or president, and I'd imagine that if you're white and not directly feeling the impact of Trump's words aimed against non-whites, you may not consider it a big deal. To your point about working class/ poor whites not understanding their privilege and being offended by that sentiment because they interpret that as "your life must have been easy" when it clearly hasn't, I agree that's a message that is often not made as perfectly clear as it should be, and being told about white privilege by a non-white person in a higher social class certainly can confuse and piss off hard-working, poor, white people. The most success I have had is pointing out shared experiences of unfairness and then explained that white privilege is not that all white people get to be rich and don’t have hardship it is that they are given the benifits of the doubt. If you are a White person getting on a plane no one thinks you are going to blow it up compared to someone who looks Muslim. If your a White person walking into a mall you don’t have the “theft prevention” staff follow you like you do if you Indigenous. If you are walking down the street people don’t cross to the other side (unless you are bald and all tatted up).
These types of things often people can relate to because they have maybe done them themselves. They can’t relate to the efonmic stuff because many of them are in just as shitty or shittier situation than people of various colours. They also don’t care about the bunch of white people that have benefited because those white people also fucked them. That is why the myth Trump created that he is like them (when really he is a spoiled rich kid who oppressed and screws people poorer than them) is so powerful. They are sick of hearing how good they have it when they can’t afford health care, a new car and whatever and they see “plenty” of people of various colours doing better than them. I think those are really good examples, although I've also seen some people try to justify that kind of discrimination by saying that the black person is statistically more likely to rob or jump you anyway, or that Muslim people are more likely to suicide bomb anyway, so that's it's okay to prejudge those groups when you see them in specific locations. When I'm given that defense, I try to come up with a stereotypical prejudice that would affect the individual defending these "precautions", with something like "So then surely we should ban- or at least cavity search daily- all white students or male students from going to school, because they're much more likely to shoot up the school than other demographics?" If the American left stopped shitting on them so hard all the time and judging them they would likely all vote left. It is very strange that in the US so many union and blue collar workers support the right basically everywhere else this is the lefts stronghold. Trump has basically weaponized indemnity politics to get people to vote against their own economic interests just so that they don’t have to have wealthier people tell them how good they actually have it. Are they, though? I agree that white people could definitely feel like they're not being focused on as much as other groups (and it's obviously because they're not facing daily discrimination and systemic violence, but white people are blissfully ignorant of this so they take it personally that they're not the main recipient of these messages), but the only party that attempts to help the poor and working-class families- regardless of skin color- is the Democratic party. Perhaps the Democratic candidates really need to speak more slowly and clearly about how healthcare for everyone includes white people, how minimum wage increases include white people, and how a cleaner, better, more educated country helps white people too. As a white guy, I can connect the dots that these things will apply to me, but I guess a lot of other people need more hand-holding in terms of the explanations of various political platforms. This seemed to be the underlying thesis for why so many white people got so offended by groups asserting that black lives matter too. The problem is that "well this policy will help everyone" isn't an acceptable response to any minority group. We (the left) are adamant that we need specific policies to address black issues, female issues, LGBTQ issues, etc., yet we just tell poor rural white folk to suck it up and ride the wave. So even though Republican policies dont do anything good for poor white rural communities, they at least speak to them a lot better. It feels like they care to those communities while it feels like Democrats dont give a damn. That's why we lose that demographic so badly. We put no effort into addressing their issues.
I'd make a distinction between the left and the democrats in this way.
Democrats are helpless to address those rural white communities because (at least at the national representative level) they share with Republicans support for the neoliberal policies leaving them behind and are hamstrung by their rhetorical appeals to identity politics.
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On July 18 2019 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:I'm reminded of this article on why white (and/or white adjacent) people think there is "anti-whiteness" everywhere they look. Show nested quote +“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Equality can feel like oppression. But it’s not. What you’re feeling is just the discomfort of losing a little bit of your privilege — the same discomfort that an only child feels when she goes to preschool and discovers that there are other kids who want to play with the same toys as she does. All this anger we see from people screaming “All Lives Matter” in response to black protesters at rallies. All this anger we see from people insisting that their “religious freedom” is being infringed because a gay couple wants to get married . All these people angry about immigrants, angry about Muslims, angry about “Happy Holidays,” angry about not being able to say bigoted things without being called a bigot…+ Show Spoiler +They all basically boil down to people who have grown accustomed to walking straight at other folks, and expecting them to move. So when “those people” in their path don’t move — when those people start wondering, “Why am I always moving out of this guy’s way?”; when those people start asking themselves, “What if I didn’t move? What if I just kept walking too?”; when those people start believing that they have every bit as much right to that aisle as anyone else — it can seem like their rights are being taken away. www.gcorr.orgThey even see anti-white racism, divisive, fight-starting in capitalization while seeing white supremacist propaganda as conciliatory lol.
You nailed it dude... I 1,000,000% agree with this.
I as that as a milk-toast, Scotts-Irish, white ass American man. About 8 years ago I was confronted with the reality of my privilege and I did not want to accept it, but eventually did, and it opened my fucking eyes.
“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
Equality requires the privileged to relinquish some of their power, most are unwilling to do that.
When I was a little kid growing up on the east coast in the semi-south I used to think my black friends would lie about all the horrible shit that happened to them, I thought, "why do they make this stuff up?" Turns out I just never had to deal with it, so it was invisible to me... that is privilege.
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On July 18 2019 08:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 08:53 Doodsmack wrote:On July 18 2019 08:00 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Trump's campaign rally or whatever should be interesting tonight.... Hard to watch him speak without becoming a dumber person. Dude is legit trying to incite civil war as only a moron of his caliber could and the crowd is eating it up.
This new "send her back" chant is probably the most open instance of racism we've seen with Trump yet. Funnily enough, Trump's defenders were very recently saying that Trump did not say that the "squad" should "go back" to where they came from. After all, read in context, Trump was merely saying that they should return to the US after going back to fix their own country:
I guess the dog whistles get heard, after all.
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On July 18 2019 10:05 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 08:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2019 08:53 Doodsmack wrote:On July 18 2019 08:00 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Trump's campaign rally or whatever should be interesting tonight.... Hard to watch him speak without becoming a dumber person. Dude is legit trying to incite civil war as only a moron of his caliber could and the crowd is eating it up. This new "send her back" chant is probably the most open instance of racism we've seen with Trump yet. Funnily enough, Trump's defenders were very recently saying that Trump did not say that the "squad" should "go back" to where they came from. After all, read in context, Trump was merely saying that they should return to the US after going back to fix their own country: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1150381395078000643I guess the dog whistles get heard, after all.
The sad part is, the unhealthy reverence for authority most conservatives suffer from will just cause them to find a way to be comfortable with this. They'll take the angle of "well, should they go back? Why should they be here?"
Look at the things certain posters believed in 2012. Compare them to what they think today and you'll see how dictators rise to power. When you worship authority, you are vulnerable to having your ethics fucked with. They'll insist nothing changed.
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On July 18 2019 09:27 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 09:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 18 2019 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 18 2019 08:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 18 2019 08:19 NewSunshine wrote:On July 18 2019 08:00 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Trump's campaign rally or whatever should be interesting tonight.... Or scary. If this administration has reached the phase where our president has no problems being openly racist, and his aides instantly respond to journalists by asking them what their ethnicity is before answering their questions, this might be the beginning of things getting a whole lot worse for minorities in America. They feel like they don't need plausible deniability anymore. And they've already done shit at rallies that makes me nervous for anyone nearby. I feel like Trump's blatant racism has been pretty much normalized for some time now; even candidate Trump was clearly racist (and even home-renter Trump was clearly racist back in the day). It's not like Trump has mastered some 4-D dogwhistling, where his discrimination has been very subtle and nuanced up until this outburst. I don't think Trump's going to change what he's been saying or thinking for decades now, because he's never held accountable. It's really up to the Republican Party to stop Trump, because the Democrats can't do it alone. Sadly, the Republicans often just fall in line, because they worry that speaking out against the leader of their party would be political suicide. Have you considered a lot of Republicans (and a non-insignificant number of Democrats, think Northam) may agree with the sentiments and just believe the dog-whistles are a superior strategy? "Agree with the sentiments" meaning that a lot of the support that Trump gets are also from true racists who agree with Trump on his xenophobic/ discriminatory rants? Absolutely. And it's definitely not just with Republican politicians, but a reasonable amount of regular American citizens who support Trump too. We even see support for Trump occasionally increase when he lashes out with these inappropriate rants: https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1UB2UD?fbclid=IwAR3V_xgDxHW3bNQb-saGl4-79I6UynxpnUx2L21FNmi6WgbRb1uFA8Y6IE0 Trump supporters are making it harder and harder to defend the claim that they're not actually racist but are merely happy to defend and enable a racist... The more I see and hear crap like this, the more I'm convinced that most Trump supporters truly are as deplorable as their orange god. They just lack the celebrity status, platform, and family wealth that Trump has. On July 18 2019 08:34 JimmiC wrote:
I think it is pretty disingenuous to call all white people who are frightened of change racist. A while some are many are not. Many of the poor white low class Trump supporters don’t feel that they have been privileged and get extra angry when a rich person tells them that they just don’t get it because of x y z. That's definitely fair, and surely it wouldn't be impossible to find some counterexamples to the claim that all white people and/or conservatives and/or Trump supporters are explicitly racist. I'd imagine that there's a set of Trump supporters, for example, who feel like Trump's ignorance and discrimination are less important in the grand scheme of things than a specific view Trump has on some other policy that is more relevant to that set of supporters. (Plenty of voters, on all sides of the political spectrum, are single-issue voters anyway, so people may only care about guns or abortion, for example, and not pay any attention to discriminatory rhetoric.) A lot of it comes down to weighing the pros and cons of a candidate or president, and I'd imagine that if you're white and not directly feeling the impact of Trump's words aimed against non-whites, you may not consider it a big deal. To your point about working class/ poor whites not understanding their privilege and being offended by that sentiment because they interpret that as "your life must have been easy" when it clearly hasn't, I agree that's a message that is often not made as perfectly clear as it should be, and being told about white privilege by a non-white person in a higher social class certainly can confuse and piss off hard-working, poor, white people. The most success I have had is pointing out shared experiences of unfairness and then explained that white privilege is not that all white people get to be rich and don’t have hardship it is that they are given the benifits of the doubt. If you are a White person getting on a plane no one thinks you are going to blow it up compared to someone who looks Muslim. If your a White person walking into a mall you don’t have the “theft prevention” staff follow you like you do if you Indigenous. If you are walking down the street people don’t cross to the other side (unless you are bald and all tatted up).
These types of things often people can relate to because they have maybe done them themselves. They can’t relate to the efonmic stuff because many of them are in just as shitty or shittier situation than people of various colours. They also don’t care about the bunch of white people that have benefited because those white people also fucked them. That is why the myth Trump created that he is like them (when really he is a spoiled rich kid who oppressed and screws people poorer than them) is so powerful. They are sick of hearing how good they have it when they can’t afford health care, a new car and whatever and they see “plenty” of people of various colours doing better than them. I think those are really good examples, although I've also seen some people try to justify that kind of discrimination by saying that the black person is statistically more likely to rob or jump you anyway, or that Muslim people are more likely to suicide bomb anyway, so that's it's okay to prejudge those groups when you see them in specific locations. When I'm given that defense, I try to come up with a stereotypical prejudice that would affect the individual defending these "precautions", with something like "So then surely we should ban- or at least cavity search daily- all white students or male students from going to school, because they're much more likely to shoot up the school than other demographics?" If the American left stopped shitting on them so hard all the time and judging them they would likely all vote left. It is very strange that in the US so many union and blue collar workers support the right basically everywhere else this is the lefts stronghold. Trump has basically weaponized indemnity politics to get people to vote against their own economic interests just so that they don’t have to have wealthier people tell them how good they actually have it. Are they, though? I agree that white people could definitely feel like they're not being focused on as much as other groups (and it's obviously because they're not facing daily discrimination and systemic violence, but white people are blissfully ignorant of this so they take it personally that they're not the main recipient of these messages), but the only party that attempts to help the poor and working-class families- regardless of skin color- is the Democratic party. Perhaps the Democratic candidates really need to speak more slowly and clearly about how healthcare for everyone includes white people, how minimum wage increases include white people, and how a cleaner, better, more educated country helps white people too. As a white guy, I can connect the dots that these things will apply to me, but I guess a lot of other people need more hand-holding in terms of the explanations of various political platforms. This seemed to be the underlying thesis for why so many white people got so offended by groups asserting that black lives matter too. The problem is that "well this policy will help everyone" isn't an acceptable response to any minority group. We (the left) are adamant that we need specific policies to address black issues, female issues, LGBTQ issues, etc., yet we just tell poor rural white folk to suck it up and ride the wave. So even though Republican policies dont do anything good for poor white rural communities, they at least speak to them a lot better. It feels like they care to those communities while it feels like Democrats dont give a damn. That's why we lose that demographic so badly. We put no effort into addressing their issues.
So I think, if we want to focus on aiding this group of three specific adjectives (poor, rural, white), we should make sure we have plans- and that we make those plans very clear- that directly help the poor, the rural, and/or the white demographic... I think Democrats do a reasonably good job (much better than Republicans anyway), of at least coming up with policies to try and help the poor so that social mobility (or even just plain old survival) becomes more possible (re: universal healthcare, higher minimum wage, more affordable education, etc.). I don't know what Democrats or Republicans do for rural communities, to be honest, although I'd imagine that smaller, more spread out communities and farms and rural areas are more likely to have less diversity and more conservative ideals, hence why the Republican and religious messages may resonate more with them. (I'm not sure if that logic is correct or not, and I'm also not sure what would be a useful way for Democrats to reach out to them, but I think this rural adjective has the most reasonable room for improvement.) As far as the white demographic goes, which is the third relevant adjective to this group of disenfranchised voters, this would be the descriptor that I least empathize with in terms of needing a pick-me-up. I suppose a direct address from other non-rich whites that shows compassion and explains personal ignorance and education about systemic discrimination could possibly be a way to educate white people to be less offended when other groups' needs are being addressed, but that also is likely to come off as super condescending and tone-deaf, especially if a poor, rural, white person only hears about his white privilege and doesn't hear about how the Democrats can help his poor and/or rural friends and family.
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Feels like a good time to remind folks that some of the most racist police forces are found not just in the north but in long held Democratic strongholds.
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On July 18 2019 10:44 JimmiC wrote:
Seems like a good time to remind people the the group that is the victim of the most hate crimes is not black, Muslims or even gays. It is still the Jewish.
Then we run into the issue of what gets reported as a hate crime.
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On July 18 2019 09:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 04:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I'll have to claim ignorance on that one. I'll defer that question to those who use such for their own politics. Well if you won't define it, then I really cannot get what your are saying. In American culture white = anglo, which is distinct from Mexican American. When I hear someone saying, "AOC is white AF" I hear some (likely white dude) "white-washing" a Latina. While I don't personally know how she chooses to identify (and I do believe it's her choice), I'm pretty sure she isn't claiming to be of anglo descent... and so yes, I think that makes her "not white." And so it is also clear you will never see/hear me back trump, or drink that kool-aid.
Why would anyone choose to identify as white?
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On July 18 2019 11:31 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 09:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 18 2019 04:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I'll have to claim ignorance on that one. I'll defer that question to those who use such for their own politics. Well if you won't define it, then I really cannot get what your are saying. In American culture white = anglo, which is distinct from Mexican American. When I hear someone saying, "AOC is white AF" I hear some (likely white dude) "white-washing" a Latina. While I don't personally know how she chooses to identify (and I do believe it's her choice), I'm pretty sure she isn't claiming to be of anglo descent... and so yes, I think that makes her "not white." And so it is also clear you will never see/hear me back trump, or drink that kool-aid. Why would anyone choose to identify as white?
Tell that to the Cubans. They don’t pick “Hispanic” or “Latin”. They pick “White”.
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On July 18 2019 09:42 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:I'm reminded of this article on why white (and/or white adjacent) people think there is "anti-whiteness" everywhere they look. “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Equality can feel like oppression. But it’s not. What you’re feeling is just the discomfort of losing a little bit of your privilege — the same discomfort that an only child feels when she goes to preschool and discovers that there are other kids who want to play with the same toys as she does. All this anger we see from people screaming “All Lives Matter” in response to black protesters at rallies. All this anger we see from people insisting that their “religious freedom” is being infringed because a gay couple wants to get married . All these people angry about immigrants, angry about Muslims, angry about “Happy Holidays,” angry about not being able to say bigoted things without being called a bigot…+ Show Spoiler +They all basically boil down to people who have grown accustomed to walking straight at other folks, and expecting them to move. So when “those people” in their path don’t move — when those people start wondering, “Why am I always moving out of this guy’s way?”; when those people start asking themselves, “What if I didn’t move? What if I just kept walking too?”; when those people start believing that they have every bit as much right to that aisle as anyone else — it can seem like their rights are being taken away. They even see anti-white racism, divisive, fight-starting in capitalization while seeing white supremacist propaganda as conciliatory lol. You nailed it dude... I 1,000,000% agree with this.I as that as a milk-toast, Scotts-Irish, white ass American man. About 8 years ago I was confronted with the reality of my privilege and I did not want to accept it, but eventually did, and it opened my fucking eyes. “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Equality requires the privileged to relinquish some of their power, most are unwilling to do that. When I was a little kid growing up on the east coast in the semi-south I used to think my black friends would lie about all the horrible shit that happened to them, I thought, "why do they make this stuff up?" Turns out I just never had to deal with it, so it was invisible to me... that is privilege.
What power have you relinquished in order to work towards equality?
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On July 18 2019 08:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 08:53 Doodsmack wrote:On July 18 2019 08:00 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Trump's campaign rally or whatever should be interesting tonight.... Hard to watch him speak without becoming a dumber person. Dude is legit trying to incite civil war as only a moron of his caliber could and the crowd is eating it up.
Yeah, apparently we're in full on White supremacy rally mode tonight, as expected, with the crowd and Trump doubling down on the "send the brown Democrat women back to their shithole country" claptrap. This is fine.
Oh but I guess, the idea is that they're all joking, or something, and they don't really mean what they say.
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pretty hilarious how there is zero mention of this trainwreck impeachment vote on /r/politics. Both that and T_D live in bizarre bubbles
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On July 18 2019 11:35 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2019 09:42 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 18 2019 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:I'm reminded of this article on why white (and/or white adjacent) people think there is "anti-whiteness" everywhere they look. “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Equality can feel like oppression. But it’s not. What you’re feeling is just the discomfort of losing a little bit of your privilege — the same discomfort that an only child feels when she goes to preschool and discovers that there are other kids who want to play with the same toys as she does. All this anger we see from people screaming “All Lives Matter” in response to black protesters at rallies. All this anger we see from people insisting that their “religious freedom” is being infringed because a gay couple wants to get married . All these people angry about immigrants, angry about Muslims, angry about “Happy Holidays,” angry about not being able to say bigoted things without being called a bigot…+ Show Spoiler +They all basically boil down to people who have grown accustomed to walking straight at other folks, and expecting them to move. So when “those people” in their path don’t move — when those people start wondering, “Why am I always moving out of this guy’s way?”; when those people start asking themselves, “What if I didn’t move? What if I just kept walking too?”; when those people start believing that they have every bit as much right to that aisle as anyone else — it can seem like their rights are being taken away. They even see anti-white racism, divisive, fight-starting in capitalization while seeing white supremacist propaganda as conciliatory lol. You nailed it dude... I 1,000,000% agree with this.I as that as a milk-toast, Scotts-Irish, white ass American man. About 8 years ago I was confronted with the reality of my privilege and I did not want to accept it, but eventually did, and it opened my fucking eyes. “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Equality requires the privileged to relinquish some of their power, most are unwilling to do that. When I was a little kid growing up on the east coast in the semi-south I used to think my black friends would lie about all the horrible shit that happened to them, I thought, "why do they make this stuff up?" Turns out I just never had to deal with it, so it was invisible to me... that is privilege. What power have you relinquished in order to work towards equality?
I would say the first step, and probably the most important is simply acknowledging that I have privilege, and giving up my ignorance about my privilege.
The nature of privilege is ignorance, the privileged people don't have to consider the problems other people do. So in regard to racial privilege, in acknowledging it I would think there comes some degree of commitment in calling it out when I see rather than just letting it slide because, "I'm white and it doesn't affect me."
If I'm playing a game a CSGO and I hear the N word (happens all the time), rather than just be ok with that, I can at the very least confront them on it, and report the account. There are many different versions of that... for example is I see a nazi symbol written on a wall, I can get a pen and mark over it.
Donate to a charity organization that combats racial inequality, march for black lives matter. I haven't done these latter two things, but for a lot of my black friends growing up I apologized for not believe them when we were kids, and tell them I believe them now.
Small steps, but if all privileged people did that, the world would change.
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I wondering what the inspiration levels are like right now for Danglers and Daunt?
Can you guys chime in? In comparison to the inspiration level of the military parade, how inspired do you feel by the send the brown congresswoman back home speeches?
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EPT
