EPTWhen the raid happened, I wondered what kind of evidence must have been presented to get a judge to sign off. It seems likely the evidence was something they heard on the wiretap. Which means the question is now what did the judge see that made him sign off on the wiretap in the first place?
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 165
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
When the raid happened, I wondered what kind of evidence must have been presented to get a judge to sign off. It seems likely the evidence was something they heard on the wiretap. Which means the question is now what did the judge see that made him sign off on the wiretap in the first place? | ||
|
Wulfey_LA
932 Posts
EDIT: bonus, the new legal staff is terrible. Read this trash. + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9495 Posts
On May 04 2018 02:19 Plansix wrote: Guiliani is now saying that they won't allow Trump to be caught in a "perjury trap". We already had this fight will Bill Clinton, the President has to testify under oath if compelled to. Also Guiliani is a nitwit, because perjury is the least of your problems if you make false statements in an FBI interview. There is a whole separate law that makes that illegal. I think its safe to say at this point that any interview that Trump does with law enforcement could be classed as a perjury trap. | ||
|
Mohdoo
United States15476 Posts
On May 04 2018 02:20 ticklishmusic wrote: https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/992091225896308736 When the raid happened, I wondered what kind of evidence must have been presented to get a judge to sign off. It seems likely the evidence was something they heard on the wiretap. Which means the question is now what did the judge see that made him sign off on the wiretap in the first place? This is all a very confusing situation. When you think of the things judges have been approving, we are left to think there must be an insane amount of evidence to where Trump must be absolutely doomed. And yet a lot of actions by Trump make it appear he is confident he will weather the storm. Part of me wonders if his game plan whether screwed or not is the same and that all he can do is hope things work out. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 04 2018 03:00 Mohdoo wrote: This is all a very confusing situation. When you think of the things judges have been approving, we are left to think there must be an insane amount of evidence to where Trump must be absolutely doomed. And yet a lot of actions by Trump make it appear he is confident he will weather the storm. Part of me wonders if his game plan whether screwed or not is the same and that all he can do is hope things work out. to some extent the plan probably is fairly similar; and acting stupidly and unjustifiably confident is fairly normal for trump. | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On May 04 2018 02:45 Wulfey_LA wrote: I am thinking that the whole 'lie about the hush money, hushing attorney goes to jail' narrative has legs. Firing Comey over the Russia thing and then dangling pardons to silence witnesses are all process offenses that the non-legally informed public might not grok. But 'lie about the hush money, hushing attorney goes to jail' is a very easy sell. And of course the easy defamation case that Clifford has on DJT also helps. And the broader conservatainment universe hasn't done nearly the amount of ideological priming in this area that they have with Mueller/Comey. I could see a whole lot of uninformed middle people picking up on this narrative in a way that Mueller/Comey just doesn't reach. EDIT: bonus, the new legal staff is terrible. Read this trash. + Show Spoiler + That's so very obviously not even him writing those tweets. It sounds too articulate, I have much too clear a sense of an actual point after reading them, that goes way beyond anything Trump shits out after eating his KFC. And anyway, this still doesn't make anything better. The "yeah, he did that, so what?" approach is getting awfully tired by now. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21530 Posts
On May 04 2018 03:00 Mohdoo wrote: He knows what he is guilty of so he probably has an idea how screwed he is.This is all a very confusing situation. When you think of the things judges have been approving, we are left to think there must be an insane amount of evidence to where Trump must be absolutely doomed. And yet a lot of actions by Trump make it appear he is confident he will weather the storm. Part of me wonders if his game plan whether screwed or not is the same and that all he can do is hope things work out. Public opinion, and Republican cowardice, is all that will save him so that is what he plays for. | ||
|
Saryph
United States1955 Posts
| ||
|
On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On May 04 2018 02:45 Wulfey_LA wrote: I am thinking that the whole 'lie about the hush money, hushing attorney goes to jail' narrative has legs. Firing Comey over the Russia thing and then dangling pardons to silence witnesses are all process offenses that the non-legally informed public might not grok. But 'lie about the hush money, hushing attorney goes to jail' is a very easy sell. And of course the easy defamation case that Clifford has on DJT also helps. And the broader conservatainment universe hasn't done nearly the amount of ideological priming in this area that they have with Mueller/Comey. I could see a whole lot of uninformed middle people picking up on this narrative in a way that Mueller/Comey just doesn't reach. EDIT: bonus, the new legal staff is terrible. Read this trash. + Show Spoiler + I have no doubt that most, if not all, of the women were/are telling the truth. My guesses about why Trump paid Daniel's off and not them: 1. She has evidence of the affair, as her attorney has implied, and they do not. 2. She didn't scoff at Cohens hush money offer while they did. Also, that wiretap story is fascinating. If Trump was dumb enough to discuss anything criminal or offer a preemptive pardon, then that may be the easiest path to his ouster. A recording of his shady dealings would be devastating. | ||
|
Wulfey_LA
932 Posts
On May 04 2018 03:07 Saryph wrote: News coming out that Cohen's phones/SMS were wiretapped and Trump called him at least once when they were tapped. I'm going to assume we're going to get a few angry tweets about that. Yeah, that is wildly more threatening than anything else we have heard so far. The Deep State recording underlings is one thing, but when the Capo is on the line ... yikes. And now that we have proof that DJT's health records are all lies and he likes to rage ... hmm ... maybe he doesn't make it the term. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22993 Posts
How does that change anything? Hasn't everyone thought there was more than enough to hang him for collusion before that faded into obstruction? I guess I'm just not seeing the huge shift and massive flub from Rudy that so many are? | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On May 04 2018 04:00 GreenHorizons wrote: I really don't see how you guys see this playing out where this Rudy thing is nearly as big a deal as it's being made. I mean I believe you guys that it's probably obviously illegal, but so what? How does that change anything? Hasn't everyone thought there was more than enough to hang him for collusion before that faded into obstruction? I guess I'm just not seeing the huge shift and massive flub from Rudy that so many are? Well he did just kind of lay out on a silver platter how Trump and co. are trying to defend themselves at this point, and in a not-so-elegant manner. As for your general point, hope springs eternal. | ||
|
On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On May 04 2018 04:00 GreenHorizons wrote: I really don't see how you guys see this playing out where this Rudy thing is nearly as big a deal as it's being made. I mean I believe you guys that it's probably obviously illegal, but so what? How does that change anything? Hasn't everyone thought there was more than enough to hang him for collusion before that faded into obstruction? I guess I'm just not seeing the huge shift and massive flub from Rudy that so many are? The dam can only hold so much water. This matters because it is directly related to multiple tangible legal cases. Most importantly, this directly affects Cohen's defense which is hugely important to Mueller and SDNY. It also hurts the ability of his shills to defend him on this and similar issues. Clearest example of this is the reactions of Ingraham and Judge Nap., both of who were less than pleased and recognized this as a problem for him/doubted Guiliani. All of them, including Hannity, were thrown under the bus basically. All those lies for naught. Overall I think the wire tap call is much bigger news. One, because it might have caught Trump red handed. Second, because at the very least it corroborates the fact that SDNY has significant evidence already on Cohen, and, by extension, probably Trump. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22993 Posts
On May 04 2018 04:16 NewSunshine wrote: Well he did just kind of lay out on a silver platter how Trump and co. are trying to defend themselves at this point, and in a not-so-elegant manner. As for your general point, hope springs eternal. I don't see how that's a big deal or changes anything. I think Mueller lacks integrity, but I don't think for a moment he's being outwitted. I think he had a pretty good idea of what their defenses could be before they had an idea what he knew. I don't get where the hope is coming from or how this plays out in a fulfilling way, or how this changes anything from yesterday or weeks before. I legit don't get the big deal of "laying out on a silver platter how Trump and co. are trying to defend themselves at this point, and in a not-so-elegant manner" This whole thing feels very "Old Man Yells at cloud" except it's everywhere like Rudy told everyone Trump put a dead hooker with his signature carved into her in Rudy's trunk on the way to the studio. On May 04 2018 04:23 On_Slaught wrote: The dam can only hold so much water. This matters because it is directly related to multiple tangible legal cases. Most importantly, this directly affects Cohen's defense which is hugely important to Mueller and SDNY. It also hurts the ability of his shills to defend him on this and similar issues. Clearest example of this is the reactions of Ingraham and Judge Nap., both of who were less than pleased and recognized this as a problem for him/doubted Guiliani. All of them, including Hannity, were thrown under the bus basically. All those lies for naught. Overall I think the wire tap call is much bigger news. One, because it might have caught Trump red handed. Second, because at the very least it corroborates the fact that SDNY has significant evidence already on Cohen, and, by extension, probably Trump. I'm still coming up with a big "so what"? I'm not trying to be a jerk about this either. I seriously don't get why that matters. Corroborates what? Is the idea there is some bombshell that hasn't come out and this (tapping his lawyer, Rudy is a total non-issue in my mind still) is the key? Because if the big payoff on all this is confirmation that Trump's a corrupt womanizer, I have bad news for those thinking this is going to shift the electorate. EDIT: The pile of metaphorical bodies Trump has left in ditches throughout his life are probably taller than his towers, a couple more is basically nothing. The irony being that Trump winning is the only reason any of this is being investigated or has even an outside shot of someone being held accountable. If Trump lost all of these people would still be out doing criminal shit and partying with people on both sides of the aisle like it's 1999 (that's a prince reference btw, not some reference to some clandestine party they were all at in 1999). | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 04 2018 04:00 GreenHorizons wrote: I really don't see how you guys see this playing out where this Rudy thing is nearly as big a deal as it's being made. I mean I believe you guys that it's probably obviously illegal, but so what? How does that change anything? Hasn't everyone thought there was more than enough to hang him for collusion before that faded into obstruction? I guess I'm just not seeing the huge shift and massive flub from Rudy that so many are? Does it change anything? Every attorney I know and work had the same response, Yes. Along with “They would disbar me?!?!?” This is one of the president’s attorneys outright admitting the President committed a felony. Any house rep or senator would and have been charged for the same crime. But more importantly, stating that makes it impossible to deny when it comes to the investigation. It provide probable cause for future warrants. And it undermines one of the key defenses to the raid that Cohen was using, attorney client privilege. Because attorney client privilege equally evaporates when it is proven the attorney was party to criminal activity. It further justifies the wire tap we are hearing about right now. But for the immediate future, it will have little impact. But the legal system isn’t about immediate returns. | ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On May 04 2018 04:00 GreenHorizons wrote: I really don't see how you guys see this playing out where this Rudy thing is nearly as big a deal as it's being made. I mean I believe you guys that it's probably obviously illegal, but so what? How does that change anything? Hasn't everyone thought there was more than enough to hang him for collusion before that faded into obstruction? I guess I'm just not seeing the huge shift and massive flub from Rudy that so many are? I mean, Giuliani and Trump basically blew out any defences that Cohen had on live television. It's probably going to be taught as a cautionary tale in law courses for the foreseeable future. Also, as has been said multiple times, "collusion" is not a specific crime, at least not in this context. Obstruction of justice is very much a part of the collusion umbrella, as is perjury, and those are also easier to prove than things like conspiracy to defraud. But those charges also aren't mutually exclusive to one another. | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States22993 Posts
On May 04 2018 04:41 WolfintheSheep wrote: I mean, Giuliani and Trump basically blew out any defences that Cohen had on live television. It's probably going to be taught as a cautionary tale in law courses for the foreseeable future. Also, as has been said multiple times, "collusion" is not a specific crime, at least not in this context. Obstruction of justice is very much a part of the collusion umbrella, as is perjury, and those are also easier to prove than things like conspiracy to defraud. But those charges also aren't mutually exclusive to one another. Point taken on the legal classrooms. There will probably be entire courses dedicated to this case for several years. I mean that sounds reminiscent (though quite different) of putting someone in jail for resisting arrest without a reason to arrest (they looked suspicious) them in the first place . Basically that he didn't do anything illegal, but he's such a narcissistic idiot that in his effort to deny what he/his team did do, he might have. Now they are trying to nail him for that. Or if they can find some "drugs or weapons" on him. You know what this actually makes me think of? Cohen being a fall guy. Then Trump and Rudy's actions over the last weeks, the raid, all of it. It all makes more sense. Mueller needs someone. He's gotta make an example out of someone to maintain that facade of integrity I've mentioned at this point so maybe Trump gave him Cohen. I know this story through a different trade, but this is basically how it works. The cops gotta bust someone to make it look like they are doing their job. Everyone knows you're the local guy, it's an open secret. But you're fair drug dealer. Stable, reasonable, pay your 'taxes'. They don't want to disrupt all that. But they can't just not bust a dealer. So you find a compromise, ideally your opposition, but sometimes there's no one around but you and your boys. So then you do some math, find your biggest sink or smallest fountain and suddenly both of your problems are solved. Cohen is Trump's 'problem solver'. Close enough to Trump for liberals to harp on it for 2 years, far enough so it won't change any votes. Then Trump gets reelected and pardons him and greases the wheels in whatever state/s he gets caught up in, or loses/withdraws and says "ah man, (I was going to say 'my bad' but Trump would blame this on Cohen so...) you shouldn't have fucked up like that". I mean I actually want this to work, I just have none of the faith many of you do. Because even if Mueller confirms all the bad stuff we know/many believe and even brings a couple moderate surprises out as well, I don't see it changing the scenario of him finishing his term. Best case scenario imo is this is all making it so Democrats have to be party endingly bad to lose in 2020. EDIT:.. That last sentence gave me Déjà vu | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Cohen isn’t a fall guy. He likely knew exactly what he was doing and why it needed to be a secret. That is why he lied about Trump making the payment and claimed he paid it out of his own pocket. This isn’t fishing for a crime. Crimes happened, likely quite a few of them given the culture surrounding the Trump campaign. These folks just did not give a shit about the rules and the rules are coming back to bite them in the ass. | ||
|
Wulfey_LA
932 Posts
As we already know, Michael Cohen is the prototypical fixer or bagman. In Mexico, as discussed in glorious detail in this NY Times expose on Wal-Mart’s massive corruption scandal in Mexico , a lawyer-fixer like Cohen would be known as a “gestore.” The bagman’s job is to get bribe money to people while insulating and giving deniability to the ultimate payor of the bribe. Having a dirty lawyer as a bagman provides a number of advantages. ... So now we have Giuliani confirming that this is exactly how Trump and Cohen operated. Hush money to Stormy Daniels is one thing and certainly raises potential serious campaign finance violations, but she is not a public official. What I find most significant about Rudy’s admission is what it says about the nature of the relationship between Trump and Cohen and how it suggests an M.O. for other more serious crimes. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/an-mo-for-other-more-serious-crimes Rudy blew apart the attorney-client-ignorance veil between Cohen and Trump himself. Now every scrap of recordings in Cohen's raided office links straight back to Trump. There is no separation between the two men. Rudy made it clear that Cohen operated with compensation as a bagman for Trump (Rudy: "just like I do for my clients"). And all of that evidence in Cohen's office is in SDNY, not in Federal hands (meaning pardon dangles won't work for state charges and the state prosecutors are after Trump meat like rabid dogs). | ||
| ||
