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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1431

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42256 Posts
May 06 2019 20:05 GMT
#28601
Barr literally sent his AG job application to Trump’s defence lawyers with a note on it saying that if he got the AG position he’d clear Trump. The corruption at this point beggars belief.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-07 03:05:22
May 06 2019 20:14 GMT
#28602
On May 07 2019 05:05 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2019 04:58 NewSunshine wrote:
On May 07 2019 04:37 Danglars wrote:
On May 07 2019 03:20 NewSunshine wrote:
On May 07 2019 02:46 Danglars wrote:
On May 07 2019 02:29 Plansix wrote:
On May 07 2019 02:07 Danglars wrote:
The hearing was pure show. They crafted ground rules they knew he would not agree to in order to get him to decline. Come willingly, so our subordinates can grill you and create sound bites? At least if Hirono wants to smear instead of question, she has to put her own face behind it and not send some underling to undertake it.

Holder at least withheld documents to the point where even Democrats signed on to hold him in contempt. You don't give guns away that kill Americans and stonewall the investigation without consequences.

You don't stand up the House of Representatives and not provide them with the information they want without consequences. The Trump administration has said they are fighting every effort the House makes towards oversight, including requests to produce documents from his taxes and businesses. Oversight over the executive branch is a basic function of congress and the executive branch doesn't get to decide what oversight entails.

You might not like it, but this is how it works. Congress has the right to investigate the president’s businesses while he is in office. They have the right to have staff lawyers question the AG on his conclusions in the report. Congress created the justice department and AG’s office, so the AG can answer questions from the staff lawyers.

You yourself just defended the behavior with
First off, all congress does is play politics. That is literally the game of the game. One does not get elected to the House or Senate to not play politics.


That opinion is pretty final as an excuse, and I have no reason to go further unless you really don't believe it.

The House may subpoena Barr's testimony on his interviews with Mueller regarding obstruction and the summary. The current iteration was bad fan service. I am no longer surprised when people embrace the most transparent propaganda moves the Democrats pull. The appropriate followup is to request Trump's EPA head answer questions from high school climate activists.

If you don't want your opponents playing politics, don't make it into a political game. Your rhetoric has grown pretty transparent. Crying "they're just playing politics" rings pretty hollow when Trump hired an AG with little integrity for the sole purpose of running point defense for him. You don't get to dish stuff out and complain when people shoot back.

In case you haven't heard, I think Barr is doing well as an AG and looks good to bring a measure of respect back into the Justice Department. I think the fools attacking him now are doing what they accused Trump of earlier: attacking the investigator because they fear what the investigation might find. It's all rather transparent for me too.

I do think the Democrats will pay for the show trials they're putting on at this point, but probably not in 2020. They haven't come into the full measure of their insanity.

You're free to think whatever you want. Just like you're free to think only Republicans are entitled to play the game they're playing.

You're free to change the subject, but I wasn't talking anything further than the nasty business of which the House is concerning itself at this moment. I've given what I think of it. You're entitled to continue to think I give the Republicans a pass and wherever that thinking takes you, but don't expect much company with snide comments to that end.

I'm not sure what else we're supposed to think. Your criticism of Republicans generally only extends to those who are out of office or not significant for some other reason, and only when pressed, and then there's arguments like "Barr is an excellent AG", when all he's done is cover Trump's ass by hiding the supposedly exonerating report from the public. Meanwhile, Democrats are demons for playing politics, which is something a Republican congressperson would never even dream of doing.
What you don't say is as important as what you do say.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11405 Posts
May 06 2019 20:55 GMT
#28603
On May 07 2019 04:50 Ben... wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2019 19:22 xDaunt wrote:
On May 06 2019 12:51 Ben... wrote:
I would suggest waiting and seeing what Mueller has to say before we start making the assumption that Barr's depiction of their communications is accurate given that Barr has already been caught being at the very least quite misleading about the content of his communications with Mueller. To be frank, after the recent incident involving the Mueller letter that contradicted Barr's previous testimony, I don't trust Barr to give an accurate depiction of any non-recorded communications with Mueller. His unwillingness to even consider giving any of the staff notes regarding his phone conversation with Mueller to quell the well-earned skepticism people have towards him only reinforces this. Given his behaviour in the last couple months along with the similar patterns of behaviour shown in his handling of the Iran Contra investigation and handling of being questioned by Congress on kidnapping 30 years ago, he should be given no benefit of the doubt.

edit: Here's more on whole kidnapping thing and consequent "summary" thing that is basically identical to what he did with the Mueller Report: www.nytimes.com

In 1989, Barr, then assistant attorney general in charge of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, determined that the F.B.I could legally seize criminal suspects in foreign countries without consent from their governments. In doing so, Barr changed the department’s position — in a 1980 legal opinion, the government said that such kidnappings were unlawful.

It was a controversial opinion, especially given its key implication at the time — that the United States could abduct Gen. Manuel Noriega of Panama, who had seized power that spring. In response, Congress called Barr to testify. “Kidnapping a suspect would make the U.S. into an international outlaw,” Representative Don Edwards of California said during the hearing, as he outlined the consequences for America’s reputation if federal authorities had free rein to kidnap. Congress also asked Barr to release his memorandum to the public, but he refused. Instead, he wrote a 13-page summary that he claimed contained its “principal” arguments and conclusions, something that should sound familiar to contemporary observers.

Except it didn’t. In 1991, Congress obtained a copy of the full memo. It contained several points not present in the summary, including the contention that the president of the United States could ignore the United Nations’ prohibition of state-sponsored kidnapping.

Barr misled Congress and the public through omission. But by then he was already on his way to confirmation as attorney general under President George H.W. Bush, where he would recommend pardons for key figures in the Iran-contra scandal, which stymied a yearslong investigation into executive-branch lawbreaking that implicated the sitting president.

So the author of that op ed accuses Barr of submitting a summary of a memo to congress that does not include everything that the memo has. Why exactly is this a big deal? A summary of a larger document by definition is not going to have everything in it that the larger document does. So what did Barr leave out? Did he leave out anything material? Did he leave out something of the summary that caused it to misrepresent the contents of the memo by omission? Why doesn't the author of the op-ed elaborate on these points?

Color me unimpressed.

When asked how he justified his claims on the president's power to kidnap people from other countries without said country's consent, Barr refuses to release his memo that explains his justification for his claim so instead he releases a summary of his memo on the decision but just happens to leave out the key point where he justifies his claim by saying he thinks it's fine for the president to ignore international law, likely knowing that including the point would have got him laughed out of the hearing. Not including that point made it appear he had an actual legal justification, instead of showing the reality where he just basically went "I think the president doesn't need to follow international law". If you took even an eighth of the level of malice you assume is present in people like Hillary Clinton and applied it to Barr, maybe you could begin to understand why people do not trust him.


Well, it is pretty established that the US position is that international law is mostly law that other nations must follow. Stuff like not joining the international criminal court at the Hague and never, ever cooperating with any other nations trial against US citizens, no matter the situation, makes this very clear. International law is something the US uses against weaker nations, but not something that a strong nation that the US would feel compelled to follow.

As such, that analysis seems pretty on point. The main argument is probably along the lines of "What are they gonna do about it?". Factually, the US does not seem inclined to follow international law, and there is not really anyone that can force them to do so. Now, this is obviously incredibly unethical. But once again, no one can really do anything about this. So, in fact, the US president does not need to follow international law. He doesn't need to follow US law either, as long as his party sticks with him. He is truly above and beyond the law, as can easily be seen.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21525 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-06 21:28:52
May 06 2019 21:28 GMT
#28604
On May 07 2019 03:39 semantics wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2019 03:20 KwarK wrote:
The Mueller report concluded that Trump attempted obstruction and was blocked by his underlings. That’s in the report. You can’t read the report and not conclude that Trump attempted obstruction.

Which is obstruction. To attempt obstruction is the same as to do it sucessfully.

The term barr throws around to get around that is "corrupt intent" in which is mostly basing it off that the president's feelings were hurt so he wasn't doing it to intentionally obstruct.
It's also hard to prove the President didn't know what he was doing was wrong when he orders someone to tell that he didn't try to fire Mueller when he previously ordered that person to fire Mueller.
He know what he did was wrong and he tried to hide it.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
May 06 2019 21:28 GMT
#28605
Gravel is my favorite candidate that isn't going to win. He's calling out the nonsense that is US foreign policy.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 06 2019 21:52 GMT
#28606
My favorite candidate will be the one that knocks Biden out of the race, because my god we need to escape the 1990s Democrats. Next thing you know he will be apologizing for Bill Clinton.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
May 06 2019 21:55 GMT
#28607
On May 07 2019 06:52 Plansix wrote:
My favorite candidate will be the one that knocks Biden out of the race, because my god we need to escape the 1990s Democrats. Next thing you know he will be apologizing for Bill Clinton.


Bernie's the only one polling in delegate range with Biden in the race now, so that's most likely Bernie or no one. Granted Biden could take himself out of the race in seconds on the campaign trail (presuming Trump didn't break everyone's brain all the way).

O'Rourke is the most similar both politically and superficially (like a younger Joe) and would probably be just as bad if not worse imo.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
HelpMeGetBetter
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States763 Posts
May 06 2019 22:19 GMT
#28608
On May 07 2019 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2019 06:52 Plansix wrote:
My favorite candidate will be the one that knocks Biden out of the race, because my god we need to escape the 1990s Democrats. Next thing you know he will be apologizing for Bill Clinton.


Bernie's the only one polling in delegate range with Biden in the race now, so that's most likely Bernie or no one. Granted Biden could take himself out of the race in seconds on the campaign trail (presuming Trump didn't break everyone's brain all the way).

O'Rourke is the most similar both politically and superficially (like a younger Joe) and would probably be just as bad if not worse imo.



I don't understand why people talk like this. Are people expecting a perfect candidate to emerge? If it turns out to be Biden and Trump, are people really debating to go with 4 more years of Trump because of whatever problems they have with Biden/Sanders/Warren/etc etc..?
I'd vote for a ham sandwich over Trump if thats what gets him out of office.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-06 22:23:53
May 06 2019 22:22 GMT
#28609
On May 07 2019 07:19 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2019 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:
On May 07 2019 06:52 Plansix wrote:
My favorite candidate will be the one that knocks Biden out of the race, because my god we need to escape the 1990s Democrats. Next thing you know he will be apologizing for Bill Clinton.


Bernie's the only one polling in delegate range with Biden in the race now, so that's most likely Bernie or no one. Granted Biden could take himself out of the race in seconds on the campaign trail (presuming Trump didn't break everyone's brain all the way).

O'Rourke is the most similar both politically and superficially (like a younger Joe) and would probably be just as bad if not worse imo.



I don't understand why people talk like this. Are people expecting a perfect candidate to emerge? If it turns out to be Biden and Trump, are people really debating to go with 4 more years of Trump because of whatever problems they have with Biden/Sanders/Warren/etc etc..?
I'd vote for a ham sandwich over Trump if thats what gets him out of office.


Because, as I've tried to raise awareness of, we're at a fork in the road and both Biden and Trump lead down the path of human extinction. At minimum massive climate catastrophe that will kill countless millions and displace even more.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 06 2019 23:24 GMT
#28610
I really never thought Biden would get in the race and steal a bunch of support from Sanders. Biden had all the early oppo sent out prior to his announcement. He’s constantly apologizing for yesteryear’s mainstream position. Sanders has been basically the same guy on economic issues forever, and minor issues on social/cultural within today’s Democratic Party
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-07 00:31:36
May 07 2019 00:28 GMT
#28611
On May 07 2019 07:22 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2019 07:19 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
On May 07 2019 06:55 GreenHorizons wrote:
On May 07 2019 06:52 Plansix wrote:
My favorite candidate will be the one that knocks Biden out of the race, because my god we need to escape the 1990s Democrats. Next thing you know he will be apologizing for Bill Clinton.


Bernie's the only one polling in delegate range with Biden in the race now, so that's most likely Bernie or no one. Granted Biden could take himself out of the race in seconds on the campaign trail (presuming Trump didn't break everyone's brain all the way).

O'Rourke is the most similar both politically and superficially (like a younger Joe) and would probably be just as bad if not worse imo.



I don't understand why people talk like this. Are people expecting a perfect candidate to emerge? If it turns out to be Biden and Trump, are people really debating to go with 4 more years of Trump because of whatever problems they have with Biden/Sanders/Warren/etc etc..?
I'd vote for a ham sandwich over Trump if thats what gets him out of office.


Because, as I've tried to raise awareness of, we're at a fork in the road and both Biden and Trump lead down the path of human extinction. At minimum massive climate catastrophe that will kill countless millions and displace even more.


And how is bernie different? He still has the same issues as before of being clueless as to what a president can and cant do, not having any real plan for anything, having a history of refusing to work with anyone and being unable to get anything done.

If any anything him being a populist from the left makes him closer to trump than Biden is. I highly doubt bernie can lead us down the right path since if he is president I doubt he can get anything done even with a Democrat majority house and Senate, much like thankfully Capt small hands couldn't get too much done
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 07 2019 00:47 GMT
#28612
I’m going to put this out there: the President doesn’t shape the course of the country. Congress does. If the Democrats want to shape the course of the nation to the left, take back the senate and keep the house. Fuck, controlling the house for 10 years would be enough.

The Oval Office matters. But long get change will only come with sustained control of the branch of government that writes laws.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15471 Posts
May 07 2019 00:47 GMT
#28613
On May 07 2019 06:52 Plansix wrote:
My favorite candidate will be the one that knocks Biden out of the race, because my god we need to escape the 1990s Democrats. Next thing you know he will be apologizing for Bill Clinton.


Jeb looked favored at one point too. Biden has no charisma. His numbers will drop like a brick after the first debate.
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
May 07 2019 00:50 GMT
#28614
On May 07 2019 05:05 KwarK wrote:
Barr literally sent his AG job application to Trump’s defence lawyers with a note on it saying that if he got the AG position he’d clear Trump. The corruption at this point beggars belief.


Unless Democrats are doing it, it's not corruption. That's the operating principle.
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
May 07 2019 00:51 GMT
#28615
On May 07 2019 09:47 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2019 06:52 Plansix wrote:
My favorite candidate will be the one that knocks Biden out of the race, because my god we need to escape the 1990s Democrats. Next thing you know he will be apologizing for Bill Clinton.


Jeb looked favored at one point too. Biden has no charisma. His numbers will drop like a brick after the first debate.

That's how I feel as well Biden doesn't stand for anything new, for the most part hes forgettable and hes at heart a centrist. That worked for Democrats 20 years ago but it hasn't worked much since.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 07 2019 00:59 GMT
#28616
It worked once in the 1990s and then they lost the House for 10 years and then eight years. The democrats have only really had power for about 4 of the last 20 years.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
May 07 2019 02:32 GMT
#28617
On May 07 2019 09:59 Plansix wrote:
It worked once in the 1990s and then they lost the House for 10 years and then eight years. The democrats have only really had power for about 4 of the last 20 years.
I think this gets to the heart of why you see so many people seem upset with a lot of the recent statements and actions by Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, et al. They continue to look increasingly out of touch with many Democrat voters. It looked like for a couple months there that Pelosi was actually going to put up a decent fight against the Trump administration, but it already seems like she's started to back down and is trying to compromise with people who have made it abundantly clear that they will never make a good-faith compromise. Between Pelosi and Schumer's inaction and the DCCC's seeming willingness to go after anyone who tries to primary an incumbent (while ignoring that several of the most popular Democrats are people who toppled centrist establishment Dems), it seems like they are all working in tandem to throw the next election.

I think it's telling that when asked about Biden, a lot of people respond with indifference or something along the lines of "I'll vote for him because I want Trump to lose". It's like they've forgot why Obama was so popular back in 2008. They need a message, and one that's better than "Trump is a bad guy so vote for me".
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 07 2019 03:00 GMT
#28618
The problem is that going left got them rocked in the 1980s and early 1990s. They could not take the Presidency for 12 years straight. They lost to Nixon twice. The narrative that going to the left is a losing strategy isn’t without evidence. Now, there were a lot of factors at play, including a bunch around race. But it’s easy to see the concern around going farther left, because the right has gotten so good at weaponizing short coming of left leaning policy. Even stuff like ACA, which is a conservative health care solution.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
May 07 2019 04:29 GMT
#28619
On May 07 2019 09:47 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2019 06:52 Plansix wrote:
My favorite candidate will be the one that knocks Biden out of the race, because my god we need to escape the 1990s Democrats. Next thing you know he will be apologizing for Bill Clinton.


Jeb looked favored at one point too. Biden has no charisma. His numbers will drop like a brick after the first debate.


I don't think it's even going to take a debate, from what I gather these recent polls showing biden surging (beyond what's typical for an announcement) we're really polling people over 50 which is about the split we'd expect and Biden's had for months.

Good chance his polling of people under 50 is already plummeting, particularly when one considers he's been pretty universally shitcanned here.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-07 05:18:18
May 07 2019 05:17 GMT
#28620
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