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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On April 29 2019 22:04 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 17:39 Danglars wrote:On April 29 2019 16:59 Velr wrote:
Killing born alive babies isn't abortion. First, considering that they're one result of a botched late-term abortion, and the general faith in the doctor's ability to diagnose a fatal condition of the baby, you might be surprised. Legislation permitting abortion up until the end of the third trimester necessarily involves what happens if the baby is delivered alive, since the dividing line is as low as minutes or seconds. (See here) Secondly, without context, a Trump quote obviously referring to a D-VA Ralph Northam quote (any replies, watch the two videos before responding) should be understood as that reference, and not some herp derp abortion lies narrative. Some other internet troll fooled Plansix by omitting the context of MS-13 just this month. Skepticism is warranted. In case people were wondering, this possibility of a recently delivered baby being left to die after a discussion between doctors and mother led directly to some old Medical Schoolmates of Northam's directing reporters to a yearbook blackface photo. Then it was all about Blackface Northam, not maybe-its-infanticide Northam. Also, the debate was briefly revived when the Born Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act was defeated. It was a herpderp abortion lie. Stop with the whataboutism Dangars. He spewed another blatant lie and you look pathetic trying to justify it. Yeah, no kidding. To expect the average Republican voter to know the context of what Trump was referring to seems unrealistic. Perhaps the crowd would understand the reference if he was in Virginia, but he wasn't. He was in Wisconsin. For people watching the rally on TV or in person without that context, it sure as hell sounded like he was just blatantly lying about how abortion works in the most disgusting way possible in order to elicit a response.
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On April 29 2019 11:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 11:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 29 2019 11:04 KwarK wrote:On April 29 2019 11:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 29 2019 10:58 KwarK wrote:On April 29 2019 10:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just to follow the conversation when we say "inflation" we're talking about that measure that doesn't match actual monetary inflation but the number reported linked to the CPI? No, because he’s upset about monetary policy, printing currency, and allowing banks to create currency through issuing debt with fractional reserve borrowing. Basically dollars collectively represent the value of American labour and therefore as you create more dollars you increase the share you possess by diluting the shares of all other holders of dollars. Future rights to receive dollars are also diluted, which is bad for the bond holder, while future obligations to pay dollars are diluted, which is good for the debtor. If the value of your asset/labour remains constant then it should track inflation. If the real value is going down then inflation isn’t responsible for your pay cut, market conditions are. American labour doesn’t command as much as it used to because the value has gone down, not because it hasn’t kept up with inflation. If you think about it saying that pay hasn’t kept up with inflation is just another way of saying that real pay has been cut. That’s not a cause, it’s an effect. Employers are paying less, therefore real wages are down. If the price of milk went through the roof you wouldn’t explain it with “grocery stores are charging more”, that’s simply a rephrasing of the question. Similarly if real wages were down you wouldn’t explain it with “pay increases haven’t kept up with inflation”, real wage change = nominal change - inflation, the proposed explanation is just a description. I think the confusion is that (monetary) inflation is just one of several ways this transfer of wealth is masked, rather than a genesis or cause. What I was saying was that inflation helps people to maintain the illusion they make more while making less. Not really? I mean people know to expect a cost of living raise each year. They know that if they don't get one they've effectively been given a paycut. The problem is that Americans have effectively been given paycut after paycut because the position of extreme privilege America enjoyed fifty years ago has degraded and the ultra rich have seized control. Inflation doesn't factor into that, there's a whole bunch of other shit that explains what happened there. Inflation is part of what allows that expected pay raise to actually be a pay cut while the recipient is none the wiser is what I'm saying. You're right that they know they're getting ripped off though because they haven't even been getting those nominal increases for years now. EDIT: Basically the US would look more like the streets of France if we had any idea how badly we've been hosed and inflation (along with a host of other factors like politicians, media, the education system, and police) helps keep people docile and unaware. I don't think inflation is a significant factor there. Again, inflation generally helps poor Americans because nominal interest - inflation = real interest and poor Americans generally pay more interest than they receive. They know they're getting ripped off, it's just the French instinctively know that if they're working for a guy and they have no money and that guy has all the money then it's probably the fault of the guy they're working for. Americans generally look at the same situation and conclude that the problem is immigrants.
(monetary) Inflation does not benefit the poor at all,how you get that idea?
Monetary inflation benefits those who get the money first,which are the banks for those who wonder.
In Europe we had recession and low prices for real estate. Then ecb began QE (giving the banks a load of money)
The banks used that money to buy real estate while barely giving out any loans to other people who wanted to buy real estate. The money from the banks dripped down into the economy and all the real estate went up big time. Now the banks they are selling their real estate and happily giving loans to everyone who want buy at inflated prices.
The common people they have been ripped of for decades lol,and they will be ripped of for decades to come unfortunately.
I saw biden is running in 2020. It was in the news here together with a vid where he awkwardly tries to hug I think a women or girl who tried get away from him. How can he even run,he has zero zero chance.
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United States42249 Posts
On April 30 2019 01:24 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 11:20 KwarK wrote:On April 29 2019 11:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 29 2019 11:04 KwarK wrote:On April 29 2019 11:01 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 29 2019 10:58 KwarK wrote:On April 29 2019 10:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
Just to follow the conversation when we say "inflation" we're talking about that measure that doesn't match actual monetary inflation but the number reported linked to the CPI? No, because he’s upset about monetary policy, printing currency, and allowing banks to create currency through issuing debt with fractional reserve borrowing. Basically dollars collectively represent the value of American labour and therefore as you create more dollars you increase the share you possess by diluting the shares of all other holders of dollars. Future rights to receive dollars are also diluted, which is bad for the bond holder, while future obligations to pay dollars are diluted, which is good for the debtor. If the value of your asset/labour remains constant then it should track inflation. If the real value is going down then inflation isn’t responsible for your pay cut, market conditions are. American labour doesn’t command as much as it used to because the value has gone down, not because it hasn’t kept up with inflation. If you think about it saying that pay hasn’t kept up with inflation is just another way of saying that real pay has been cut. That’s not a cause, it’s an effect. Employers are paying less, therefore real wages are down. If the price of milk went through the roof you wouldn’t explain it with “grocery stores are charging more”, that’s simply a rephrasing of the question. Similarly if real wages were down you wouldn’t explain it with “pay increases haven’t kept up with inflation”, real wage change = nominal change - inflation, the proposed explanation is just a description. I think the confusion is that (monetary) inflation is just one of several ways this transfer of wealth is masked, rather than a genesis or cause. What I was saying was that inflation helps people to maintain the illusion they make more while making less. Not really? I mean people know to expect a cost of living raise each year. They know that if they don't get one they've effectively been given a paycut. The problem is that Americans have effectively been given paycut after paycut because the position of extreme privilege America enjoyed fifty years ago has degraded and the ultra rich have seized control. Inflation doesn't factor into that, there's a whole bunch of other shit that explains what happened there. Inflation is part of what allows that expected pay raise to actually be a pay cut while the recipient is none the wiser is what I'm saying. You're right that they know they're getting ripped off though because they haven't even been getting those nominal increases for years now. EDIT: Basically the US would look more like the streets of France if we had any idea how badly we've been hosed and inflation (along with a host of other factors like politicians, media, the education system, and police) helps keep people docile and unaware. I don't think inflation is a significant factor there. Again, inflation generally helps poor Americans because nominal interest - inflation = real interest and poor Americans generally pay more interest than they receive. They know they're getting ripped off, it's just the French instinctively know that if they're working for a guy and they have no money and that guy has all the money then it's probably the fault of the guy they're working for. Americans generally look at the same situation and conclude that the problem is immigrants. (monetary) Inflation does not benefit the poor at all,how you get that idea? Monetary inflation benefits those who get the money first,which are the banks for those who wonder.
The real interest formula is nominal - inflation = real. If you have fixed rate bonds then rising inflation hurts you. If you have fixed rate debt then rising inflation helps you. If you have positive cash then inflation deflates the value of your reserves. Negative cash it deflates the value of your debt.
Anything variable rate, such as income, should float with inflation because your rate of pay is linked to the market value of your labour, not to the units in which it is measured. It should scale, and a failure to scale represents a pay cut which is nothing to do with inflation.
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Danglars: Here's a video of Ralph Northam, the Democratic governor of Virginia, using this language to describe Democratic abortion legislation and born-alive babies. Notice how Trump repeats the wording and issue. It's not Trump lying about "how abortion works" and there's no context.
Stratos_spear: It totally is a lie!
Plansix; It's rare! I'm not convinced because Trump is bad.
JimmiC: Did I mention that he's a liar?
Ben...: Average Trump voters wouldn't know the context.
Yeah, I'm starting to think the average Trump voter has more introspection and rational thought than you lot. It you can deny the literal clip that touched off the blackface scandal (Who would know about an elected Democratic leader talking about leaving babies to die, and right afterwards being shown in blackface in his medical school yearbook?), you might be able to believe anything. (To be even handed, I have met some Trump fans that exhibit this behavior as well, so it does exist on both sides)
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On April 30 2019 01:40 Danglars wrote:
Danglars: Here's a video of Ralph Northam, the Democratic governor of Virginia, using this language to describe Democratic abortion legislation and born-alive babies. Notice how Trump repeats the wording and issue. It's not Trump lying about "how abortion works" and there's no context.
Stratos_spear: It totally is a lie!
Plansix; It's rare! I'm not convinced because Trump is bad.
JimmiC: Did I mention that he's a liar?
Ben...: Average Trump voters wouldn't know the context.
Yeah, I'm starting to think the average Trump voter has more introspection and rational thought than you lot. It you can deny the literal clip that touched off the blackface scandal (Who would know about an elected Democratic leader talking about leaving babies to die, and right afterwards being shown in blackface in his medical school yearbook?), you might be able to believe anything. (To be even handed, I have met some Trump fans that exhibit this behavior as well, so it does exist on both sides)
This is one of the most convenient parts of thinking both parties are pretty much worthless. Northam, nor Trump, should have ever been in positions of authority in government but couldn't be there without the help of their parties (who knew they were schmucks beforehand).
As to the issue itself of abortion (whenever it is), should be left to women and anyone who didn't come out of a uterus imo. Surely we can all see why Northam and Trump shouldn't have anything to do with it?
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Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything.
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On April 30 2019 01:52 Plansix wrote:
Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything.
Wait, are you arguing Trump was trying to portray/convince his audience that what he described is how every abortion works?
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On April 30 2019 01:40 Danglars wrote:
Danglars: Here's a video of Ralph Northam, the Democratic governor of Virginia, using this language to describe Democratic abortion legislation and born-alive babies. Notice how Trump repeats the wording and issue. It's not Trump lying about "how abortion works" and there's no context.
Stratos_spear: It totally is a lie!
Plansix; It's rare! I'm not convinced because Trump is bad.
JimmiC: Did I mention that he's a liar?
Ben...: Average Trump voters wouldn't know the context.
Yeah, I'm starting to think the average Trump voter has more introspection and rational thought than you lot. It you can deny the literal clip that touched off the blackface scandal (Who would know about an elected Democratic leader talking about leaving babies to die, and right afterwards being shown in blackface in his medical school yearbook?), you might be able to believe anything. (To be even handed, I have met some Trump fans that exhibit this behavior as well, so it does exist on both sides)
I found nothing strange in what Northam said. He presented his opinion in a clear way. I agree more with his standpoint than the Trump one. So I see it as a good rebuttal of the trump speech when it was the opposite way. Northam is a bit more extreme in his opinion than I am but in a two option system like the US one I would vote Northam 100% after seeing those two speeches.
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On April 30 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 01:52 Plansix wrote:
Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything. Wait, are you arguing Trump was trying to portray/convince his audience that what he described is how every abortion works? Trump is smart/stupid enough to leave that up this his audience to decide based on their own position on the subject.
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On April 30 2019 02:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2019 01:52 Plansix wrote:
Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything. Wait, are you arguing Trump was trying to portray/convince his audience that what he described is how every abortion works? Trump is smart/stupid enough to leave that up this his audience to decide based on their own position on the subject.
Is this really what people think?
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: I agree with Gors takeYes (17) 94% No (1) 6% 18 total votes Your vote: I agree with Gors take (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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On April 30 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 01:52 Plansix wrote:
Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything. Wait, are you arguing Trump was trying to portray/convince his audience that what he described is how every abortion works?
He said doctors execute newborn babies with the mother. The exact quote:
"The baby is born," Trump said. "The mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully, and then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby. I don't think so."
That isn't what happens. The bill in discussion would make it illegal for a doctor to do anything but continue care for a baby that has critical deformities or complication that make it unable to survive without care. This could be against the express wishes of the parents, who would be both economically responsible for that treatment and everything that happens afterwords. That baby could be brain dead and the doctor would still be required to administer even if the parents were did not want to.
Trump is full of shit. They do not execute babies any more than the doctors executed my grandmother who didn't want to be resuscitated. Even in context Trumps statements are overt lies, unless we rewrite what the word "executed" means. And if that is the case, then I'm going to redefine "Sadist" to include people who use the power of the state to force women to go through with unwanted pregnancies.
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On April 30 2019 02:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2019 01:52 Plansix wrote:
Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything. Wait, are you arguing Trump was trying to portray/convince his audience that what he described is how every abortion works? He said doctors execute newborn babies with the mother. The exact quote: Show nested quote +"The baby is born," Trump said. "The mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully, and then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby. I don't think so." That isn't what happens. The bill in discussion would make it illegal for a doctor to do anything but continue care for a baby that has critical deformities or complication that make it unable to survive without care. This could be against the express wishes of the parents, who would be both economically responsible for that treatment and everything that happens afterwords. That baby could be brain dead and the doctor would still be required to administer even if the parents were did not want to. Trump is full of shit. They do not execute babies any more than the doctors executed my grandmother who didn't want to be resuscitated. Even in context Trumps statements are overt lies, unless we rewrite what the word "executed" means. And if that is the case, then I'm going to redefine "Sadist" to include people who use the power of the state to force women to go through with unwanted pregnancies.
So your issue is with the words "execute the baby" over "terminate the pregnancy" (which is typically used to describe a forced/assisted ending of pregnancy).
Then it seems we have a few people who agree with Gors (no noted disagreement, besides conservatives I presume, yet) that Trump was trying to lead (more or less) his audience to believe (based on preexisting beliefs) all abortions are like he described.
Am I accurately tracking positions here thus far?
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On April 30 2019 02:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2019 01:52 Plansix wrote:
Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything. Wait, are you arguing Trump was trying to portray/convince his audience that what he described is how every abortion works? He said doctors execute newborn babies with the mother. The exact quote: "The baby is born," Trump said. "The mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully, and then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby. I don't think so." That isn't what happens. The bill in discussion would make it illegal for a doctor to do anything but continue care for a baby that has critical deformities or complication that make it unable to survive without care. This could be against the express wishes of the parents, who would be both economically responsible for that treatment and everything that happens afterwords. That baby could be brain dead and the doctor would still be required to administer even if the parents were did not want to. Trump is full of shit. They do not execute babies any more than the doctors executed my grandmother who didn't want to be resuscitated. Even in context Trumps statements are overt lies, unless we rewrite what the word "executed" means. And if that is the case, then I'm going to redefine "Sadist" to include people who use the power of the state to force women to go through with unwanted pregnancies. So your issue is with the word execute over terminate (which is typically used to describe a forced/assisted ending of pregnancy). Then it seems we have a few people who agree with Gors that Trump was trying to lead (more or less) his audience to believe (based on preexisting beliefs) all abortions are like he described. Am I accurately tracking positions here thus far?
He makes no effort to assert otherwise. If we take his statement as face value, one could infer that the doctors go to every new mother and say “It’s a boy, do you want to keep it or should I terminate this baby?”
I don’t think he is overly concerned if his supporters and other voters believe doctors murder babies in their crib or not. He just wants support by whatever means are necessary. And if a doctor happens to get shot because someone buys into this like just like someone bought into Pizza Gate, then that is just to bad, but not really a problem.
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On April 30 2019 02:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2019 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2019 01:52 Plansix wrote:
Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything. Wait, are you arguing Trump was trying to portray/convince his audience that what he described is how every abortion works? He said doctors execute newborn babies with the mother. The exact quote: "The baby is born," Trump said. "The mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully, and then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby. I don't think so." That isn't what happens. The bill in discussion would make it illegal for a doctor to do anything but continue care for a baby that has critical deformities or complication that make it unable to survive without care. This could be against the express wishes of the parents, who would be both economically responsible for that treatment and everything that happens afterwords. That baby could be brain dead and the doctor would still be required to administer even if the parents were did not want to. Trump is full of shit. They do not execute babies any more than the doctors executed my grandmother who didn't want to be resuscitated. Even in context Trumps statements are overt lies, unless we rewrite what the word "executed" means. And if that is the case, then I'm going to redefine "Sadist" to include people who use the power of the state to force women to go through with unwanted pregnancies. So your issue is with the word execute over terminate (which is typically used to describe a forced/assisted ending of pregnancy). Then it seems we have a few people who agree with Gors that Trump was trying to lead (more or less) his audience to believe (based on preexisting beliefs) all abortions are like he described. Am I accurately tracking positions here thus far? He makes no effort to assert otherwise. If we take his statement as face value, one could infer that the doctors go to every new mother and say “It’s a boy, do you want to keep it or should I terminate this baby?” I don’t think he is overly concerned if his supporters and other voters believe doctors murder babies in their crib or not. He just wants support by whatever means are necessary. And if a doctor happens to get shot because someone buys into this like just like someone bought into Pizza Gate, then that is just to bad, but not really a problem.
Alright, I can definitely appreciate that position. Does anyone want to clarify or hedge before I point out my issue/s with this position as has been articulated by p6 and Gors and supported by the poll results thus far?
I want to be clear that my point isn't to demonstrate that the position is wrong (I think it is) it's to try to encourage a type of engagement that achieves real communication rather than just ranting at each other and taking potshots.
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United States42249 Posts
It seems very unlikely that doctors in the US are routinely committing legal infanticide, not least because there is no such thing as legal infanticide.
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I’m not sure why polling matters on the subject. People favor regulation on late term abortions and they are so small in number that said regulation would be addressing a very small number of abortions in the country any ways. I’m not even sure that any such abortions took place in Wisconsin, where the law that was vetoed existed. Or can take place there, since there are a limited number of doctors that will do it anyways.
Trump’s statement is dangerous for many reasons that have nothing to do with abortions. It is something that is untrue meant to turn the population against his political enemies. He didn’t have someone set fire to Congress and blame it on the Democrats, but we are entering the territory where that is a tactic someone might consider.
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On April 30 2019 02:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 02:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 30 2019 01:52 Plansix wrote:
Ralph Northam is an outlier in the Democratic party and gets his far share of critique from women's rights/heath groups on this very topic. He also isn't the leader of the party. Trump is the leader of the Republican party, no matter what they claim.
And Trump is full of shit a lot of the time and I'm going to continue to assume that what he claims is a lie until I am provided with evidence otherwise. A second quote from a member of the democratic party isn't proof of anything. Wait, are you arguing Trump was trying to portray/convince his audience that what he described is how every abortion works? He said doctors execute newborn babies with the mother. The exact quote: "The baby is born," Trump said. "The mother meets with the doctor. They take care of the baby. They wrap the baby beautifully, and then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute the baby. I don't think so." That isn't what happens. The bill in discussion would make it illegal for a doctor to do anything but continue care for a baby that has critical deformities or complication that make it unable to survive without care. This could be against the express wishes of the parents, who would be both economically responsible for that treatment and everything that happens afterwords. That baby could be brain dead and the doctor would still be required to administer even if the parents were did not want to. Trump is full of shit. They do not execute babies any more than the doctors executed my grandmother who didn't want to be resuscitated. Even in context Trumps statements are overt lies, unless we rewrite what the word "executed" means. And if that is the case, then I'm going to redefine "Sadist" to include people who use the power of the state to force women to go through with unwanted pregnancies. So your issue is with the words "execute the baby" over "terminate the pregnancy" (which is typically used to describe a forced/assisted ending of pregnancy). Then it seems we have a few people who agree with Gors (no noted disagreement, besides conservatives I presume, yet) that Trump was trying to lead (more or less) his audience to believe (based on preexisting beliefs) all abortions are like he described. Am I accurately tracking positions here thus far?
We’ve moved on from simple denial phase, into the phase where Trump’s right, but he should’ve used better language to describe a born-alive baby left to die. We have standards in this country, and when we’re talking about the mother and her doctors discussing what to do with the newborn, let no-one ever say that e-word.
The next phase is that calling Trump’s language language on the abandonment and death of a newborn tantamount to incitement to violence against abortionists. Optional final phase is discussing if that speech is really protected by the first amendment. All because a few people listen to outlets that wouldn’t cover Northam’s extreme comments, so assumed Trump must be up to fabricating lies about abortion again.
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On April 30 2019 02:43 Plansix wrote:
I’m not sure why polling matters on the subject. People favor regulation on late term abortions and they are so small in number that said regulation would be addressing a very small number of abortions in the country any ways. I’m not even sure that any such abortions took place in Wisconsin, where the law that was vetoed existed. Or can take place there, since there are a limited number of doctors that will do it anyways.
Trump’s statement is dangerous for many reasons that have nothing to do with abortions. It is something that is untrue meant to turn the population against his political enemies. He didn’t have someone set fire to Congress and blame it on the Democrats, but we are entering the territory where that is a tactic someone might consider.
I was talking about the poll here on TL whether people agreed with Gors take that Trump was more or less preying on his audience's ignorance and gullibility to manipulate them into thinking this is how all abortions worked (paraphrased). Just so we can keep what's being discussed clearly in focus.
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On April 30 2019 02:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 02:43 Plansix wrote:
I’m not sure why polling matters on the subject. People favor regulation on late term abortions and they are so small in number that said regulation would be addressing a very small number of abortions in the country any ways. I’m not even sure that any such abortions took place in Wisconsin, where the law that was vetoed existed. Or can take place there, since there are a limited number of doctors that will do it anyways.
Trump’s statement is dangerous for many reasons that have nothing to do with abortions. It is something that is untrue meant to turn the population against his political enemies. He didn’t have someone set fire to Congress and blame it on the Democrats, but we are entering the territory where that is a tactic someone might consider. I was talking about the poll here on TL whether people agreed with Gors take that Trump was more or less preying on his audience's ignorance and gullibility to manipulate them into thinking this is how all abortions worked (paraphrased). Just so we can keep what's being discussed clearly in focus.
Ah, that makes far more sense. I was wondering why you were going to general polling of the voting population.
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I think at this point it's fair to say there is essentially ubiquitous agreement among those at hand (outside conservatives/republicans/libertarians/you get it and myself) 9-yes 0-no at time of posting
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: I agree with Gors takeYes (17) 94% No (1) 6% 18 total votes Your vote: I agree with Gors take (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
My next question is how many of those who have determined that Gors was accurate in his conclusion that Trump's audience was being manipulated watched the context of the clip (not the entire speech but at least a minute in either direction?)
Poll: I watched at least 2 minutes of context for the Trump Abortion clipNo (3) 60% Yes (2) 40% I realize now I probably should have (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: I watched at least 2 minutes of context for the Trump Abortion clip (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): I realize now I probably should have
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EPT
