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On February 13 2019 01:18 youngjiddle wrote:I didn't think people here would be so quick to call others racist for not wanting people coming into their country. People hate change. People hate change. People hate change, there is nothing wrong with not wanting mass immigration here, or any country really. It's not about hating other cultures, but being more comfortable in how they live and interact with others right now. "But America was built on people coming here!!! yeah, over 200 years ago. "But they will integrate with others!!!. not exactly...
There's no argument against calling that "racist" in your post. You're just saying that you understand it, which doesn't go against the definition. Meanwhile it's still a vision that discriminates between people, and from a practical standpoint it's still largely based on their race.
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But the discussion at hand is about refugees and asylum seekers whose numbers are very small. Less than 10K in 2016. This isn't the open door immigration that people make it out to be.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/refugees-and-asylees-united-states
So when people reference the poem in this context, they are talking about the refugees. The literally poor huddled masses coming to our shores and borders.
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ah i had misread, and made a mistake. sorry.
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Again the discussion seems to move to this idea of open borders, rather than talking about the specific policies of the day and why children are being separated from their families in detention centers. One mention of the statue of liberty and we are back to discussing letting billions of people into the US.
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On February 13 2019 01:49 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 01:18 youngjiddle wrote:I didn't think people here would be so quick to call others racist for not wanting people coming into their country. People hate change. People hate change. People hate change, there is nothing wrong with not wanting mass immigration here, or any country really. It's not about hating other cultures, but being more comfortable in how they live and interact with others right now. "But America was built on people coming here!!! yeah, over 200 years ago. "But they will integrate with others!!!. not exactly... this ignores the fact that these absurd laws are the change. like P6 said, immigration had been the status quo. stopping these people from coming in is the change. and this isn’t happening hundreds of years ago, but in the last few decades. while i agree, people don’t like change, this is an argument against what the administration is doing, not for it. and people wouldn’t be so quick to call it out as racism if most of the argument didn’t center around not liking mexicans lol. unfortunately, like Ayaz alluded to, generally it’s either just racism or ignorance, because every non racist reason for limiting immigration centers around a paradox. those lazy mexicans building the welfare state are coming to take our jobs? the other favorite is that all these illegals are murdering us! which is absurd. what’s your particular reasoning, if you don’t mind sharing? to your point about integration, we just argued a similar point with Danglars, who would be firmly on the side of that school exercising it’s own right to enforce that rule. we do have freedom of religion in this country. it would seem odd(illegal) to not allow muslims to exercise that right, don’t you think? Danglars if i’m putting words in your mouth incorrectly, i apologize.
Just because people coming here are from a certain race of people (it's not Mexicans anymore but you mention Mexicans, lol...), and people don't want more people, doesn't mean they are racist. You obviously have this mindset that everyone of these people hates "lazy Mexicans". What?
I'll make an easy compassion for you. People more left hate "gentrification" because it destroys communities. But when people come to the United States to do it, it suddenly is ok?
anyone arguing "illegals are murdering us" is fear mongering, I'm not arguing that (but you want me to?).
At what point does Religion override women's right, is it really right for a private school to be discriminating against women? that's a whole other discussion.
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On February 13 2019 02:11 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 01:49 brian wrote:On February 13 2019 01:18 youngjiddle wrote:I didn't think people here would be so quick to call others racist for not wanting people coming into their country. People hate change. People hate change. People hate change, there is nothing wrong with not wanting mass immigration here, or any country really. It's not about hating other cultures, but being more comfortable in how they live and interact with others right now. "But America was built on people coming here!!! yeah, over 200 years ago. "But they will integrate with others!!!. not exactly... this ignores the fact that these absurd laws are the change. like P6 said, immigration had been the status quo. stopping these people from coming in is the change. and this isn’t happening hundreds of years ago, but in the last few decades. while i agree, people don’t like change, this is an argument against what the administration is doing, not for it. and people wouldn’t be so quick to call it out as racism if most of the argument didn’t center around not liking mexicans lol. unfortunately, like Ayaz alluded to, generally it’s either just racism or ignorance, because every non racist reason for limiting immigration centers around a paradox. those lazy mexicans building the welfare state are coming to take our jobs? the other favorite is that all these illegals are murdering us! which is absurd. what’s your particular reasoning, if you don’t mind sharing? to your point about integration, we just argued a similar point with Danglars, who would be firmly on the side of that school exercising it’s own right to enforce that rule. we do have freedom of religion in this country. it would seem odd(illegal) to not allow muslims to exercise that right, don’t you think? Danglars if i’m putting words in your mouth incorrectly, i apologize. Just because people coming here are from a certain race of people (it's not Mexicans anymore but you mention Mexicans, lol...), and people don't want more people, doesn't mean they are racist. You obviously have this mindset that everyone of these people hates "lazy Mexicans". What? I'll make an easy compassion for you. People more left hate "gentrification" because it destroys communities. But when people come to the United States to do it, it suddenly is ok? anyone arguing "illegals are murdering us" is fear mongering, I'm not arguing that (but you want me to?). At what point does Religion override women's right, is it really right for a private school to be discriminating against women? that's a whole other discussion.
You are mixing up all kinds of different types of immigration. The specific class that is being targeted by Trump right now is asylum seekers. These are not people who are here to steal your jobs. These are people fleeing war and/or political persecution in their home country. There are internationally recognized (and signed into law by the US congress) regulations that delimit the exact cases when asylum should be granted. Anybody has the right to seek asylum, but it's not easy to seek, nor are your chances of being granted asylum great, unless you can show that your life is literally in danger if you go back home.
Right now, asylum seekers are, surprisingly, mainly coming from China (https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-u-s-asylum-process/), followed by quite a few central american countries. These people aren't migrating to the US for the hell of it (not that anybody really is). They are fleeing their homes in fear, because of violence and persecution back home.
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On February 13 2019 02:11 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 01:49 brian wrote:On February 13 2019 01:18 youngjiddle wrote:I didn't think people here would be so quick to call others racist for not wanting people coming into their country. People hate change. People hate change. People hate change, there is nothing wrong with not wanting mass immigration here, or any country really. It's not about hating other cultures, but being more comfortable in how they live and interact with others right now. "But America was built on people coming here!!! yeah, over 200 years ago. "But they will integrate with others!!!. not exactly... this ignores the fact that these absurd laws are the change. like P6 said, immigration had been the status quo. stopping these people from coming in is the change. and this isn’t happening hundreds of years ago, but in the last few decades. while i agree, people don’t like change, this is an argument against what the administration is doing, not for it. and people wouldn’t be so quick to call it out as racism if most of the argument didn’t center around not liking mexicans lol. unfortunately, like Ayaz alluded to, generally it’s either just racism or ignorance, because every non racist reason for limiting immigration centers around a paradox. those lazy mexicans building the welfare state are coming to take our jobs? the other favorite is that all these illegals are murdering us! which is absurd. what’s your particular reasoning, if you don’t mind sharing? to your point about integration, we just argued a similar point with Danglars, who would be firmly on the side of that school exercising it’s own right to enforce that rule. we do have freedom of religion in this country. it would seem odd(illegal) to not allow muslims to exercise that right, don’t you think? Danglars if i’m putting words in your mouth incorrectly, i apologize. Just because people coming here are from a certain race of people (it's not Mexicans anymore but you mention Mexicans, lol...), and people don't want more people, doesn't mean they are racist. You obviously have this mindset that everyone of these people hates "lazy Mexicans". What? I'll make an easy compassion for you. People more left hate "gentrification" because it destroys communities. But when people come to the United States to do it, it suddenly is ok? anyone arguing "illegals are murdering us" is fear mongering, I'm not arguing that (but you want me to?). At what point does Religion override women's right, is it really right for a private school to be discriminating against women? that's a whole other discussion.
This is a weird collection of talking points, none of which have anything to do with each other.
Just because people coming here are from a certain race of people (it's not Mexicans anymore but you mention Mexicans, lol...), and people don't want more people, doesn't mean they are racist. You obviously have this mindset that everyone of these people hates "lazy Mexicans". What?
Its not about calling people racist. Its about things that are racist,either intentionally or unintentionally, and it shouldn't be about judging people (although often it sadly becomes that) as much as identifying policies that have the effect of racially discriminating and punishing one group of people disproportionately according to their race or ethnicity.
Your view on this seems to be that we shouldn't do that because people will get offended.The right is so defensive about racism that the effect of this point of view is that they don't engage with issues of racism when they arise.
I'll make an easy compassion for you. People more left hate "gentrification" because it destroys communities. But when people come to the United States to do it, it suddenly is ok?
Some people on the left hate gentrification for a massive variety of reasons, one of which is the commodification of culture and displacement of poor communities.
This has nothing to do with immigration, except that immigration often contributes to these communities by expanding the culture.
At what point does Religion override women's right, is it really right for a private school to be discriminating against women? that's a whole other discussion.
The left is far from united on this. I'm pretty far left and I don't think schools should discriminate against kids, whether its a muslim school discriminating against women or a catholic school discriminating against teens who support the rights of gay people.
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On February 13 2019 02:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 02:11 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 01:49 brian wrote:On February 13 2019 01:18 youngjiddle wrote:I didn't think people here would be so quick to call others racist for not wanting people coming into their country. People hate change. People hate change. People hate change, there is nothing wrong with not wanting mass immigration here, or any country really. It's not about hating other cultures, but being more comfortable in how they live and interact with others right now. "But America was built on people coming here!!! yeah, over 200 years ago. "But they will integrate with others!!!. not exactly... this ignores the fact that these absurd laws are the change. like P6 said, immigration had been the status quo. stopping these people from coming in is the change. and this isn’t happening hundreds of years ago, but in the last few decades. while i agree, people don’t like change, this is an argument against what the administration is doing, not for it. and people wouldn’t be so quick to call it out as racism if most of the argument didn’t center around not liking mexicans lol. unfortunately, like Ayaz alluded to, generally it’s either just racism or ignorance, because every non racist reason for limiting immigration centers around a paradox. those lazy mexicans building the welfare state are coming to take our jobs? the other favorite is that all these illegals are murdering us! which is absurd. what’s your particular reasoning, if you don’t mind sharing? to your point about integration, we just argued a similar point with Danglars, who would be firmly on the side of that school exercising it’s own right to enforce that rule. we do have freedom of religion in this country. it would seem odd(illegal) to not allow muslims to exercise that right, don’t you think? Danglars if i’m putting words in your mouth incorrectly, i apologize. Just because people coming here are from a certain race of people (it's not Mexicans anymore but you mention Mexicans, lol...), and people don't want more people, doesn't mean they are racist. You obviously have this mindset that everyone of these people hates "lazy Mexicans". What? I'll make an easy compassion for you. People more left hate "gentrification" because it destroys communities. But when people come to the United States to do it, it suddenly is ok? anyone arguing "illegals are murdering us" is fear mongering, I'm not arguing that (but you want me to?). At what point does Religion override women's right, is it really right for a private school to be discriminating against women? that's a whole other discussion. This is a weird collection of talking points, none of which have anything to do with each other.
the "weird collection of talking points" are all responses to the points he said.
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And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification. And I don't know anyone who lives around immigrants that dislikes immigrants. All the people I know who dislike immigrants are form my super white home town that couldn't attract in immigrant population if they wanted to.
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On February 13 2019 02:35 Plansix wrote:
And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification.
The poor don't get to live in a nicer community who can fund it, big surprise!
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On February 13 2019 02:31 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 02:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 13 2019 02:11 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 01:49 brian wrote:On February 13 2019 01:18 youngjiddle wrote:I didn't think people here would be so quick to call others racist for not wanting people coming into their country. People hate change. People hate change. People hate change, there is nothing wrong with not wanting mass immigration here, or any country really. It's not about hating other cultures, but being more comfortable in how they live and interact with others right now. "But America was built on people coming here!!! yeah, over 200 years ago. "But they will integrate with others!!!. not exactly... this ignores the fact that these absurd laws are the change. like P6 said, immigration had been the status quo. stopping these people from coming in is the change. and this isn’t happening hundreds of years ago, but in the last few decades. while i agree, people don’t like change, this is an argument against what the administration is doing, not for it. and people wouldn’t be so quick to call it out as racism if most of the argument didn’t center around not liking mexicans lol. unfortunately, like Ayaz alluded to, generally it’s either just racism or ignorance, because every non racist reason for limiting immigration centers around a paradox. those lazy mexicans building the welfare state are coming to take our jobs? the other favorite is that all these illegals are murdering us! which is absurd. what’s your particular reasoning, if you don’t mind sharing? to your point about integration, we just argued a similar point with Danglars, who would be firmly on the side of that school exercising it’s own right to enforce that rule. we do have freedom of religion in this country. it would seem odd(illegal) to not allow muslims to exercise that right, don’t you think? Danglars if i’m putting words in your mouth incorrectly, i apologize. Just because people coming here are from a certain race of people (it's not Mexicans anymore but you mention Mexicans, lol...), and people don't want more people, doesn't mean they are racist. You obviously have this mindset that everyone of these people hates "lazy Mexicans". What? I'll make an easy compassion for you. People more left hate "gentrification" because it destroys communities. But when people come to the United States to do it, it suddenly is ok? anyone arguing "illegals are murdering us" is fear mongering, I'm not arguing that (but you want me to?). At what point does Religion override women's right, is it really right for a private school to be discriminating against women? that's a whole other discussion. This is a weird collection of talking points, none of which have anything to do with each other. the "weird collection of talking points" are all responses to the points he said.
Fair enough.
Feel free to answer any of my other points if you want to.
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On February 13 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 02:35 Plansix wrote:
And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification. The poor don't get to live in a nicer community who can fund it, big surprise!
Yeah, that is bullshit. So the poor people get to be kicked out of the community while it improves, so they can go live in another run down area. So the message for poor people is that the well off take things from them, ruin their communities and force them to leave. Your entire message can be boiled down to "Fuck the poor, they deserve it." I'm not sure that is what you mean to say.
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On February 13 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 02:35 Plansix wrote:
And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification. The poor don't get to live in a nicer community who can fund it, big surprise!
What you're looking for, and what the point is that you're overlooking, is more like "The poor don't get to live in a community."
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On February 13 2019 03:01 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 02:35 Plansix wrote:
And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification. The poor don't get to live in a nicer community who can fund it, big surprise! What you're looking for, and what the point is that you're overlooking, is more like "The poor don't get to live in a community."
*insert ben shapiro meme quote about reality not caring about your feelings*
User was temp banned for this post.
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United Kingdom10011 Posts
On February 13 2019 03:07 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 03:01 Gahlo wrote:On February 13 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 02:35 Plansix wrote:
And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification. The poor don't get to live in a nicer community who can fund it, big surprise! What you're looking for, and what the point is that you're overlooking, is more like "The poor don't get to live in a community." *insert ben shapiro meme quote about reality not caring about your feelings*
Why though?
Reality in this case is something that we as a society choose. It doesn't have to be a society where we shit on the poor from a great height, if that happens its because we have chosen for it to be that way, and some people will fight against that.
The reality of what happens to the poor specifically is something that changes over time, so if your whole argument is "Well that's reality so suck it" then you might as well just keep it to yourself.
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On February 13 2019 03:07 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 03:01 Gahlo wrote:On February 13 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 02:35 Plansix wrote:
And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification. The poor don't get to live in a nicer community who can fund it, big surprise! What you're looking for, and what the point is that you're overlooking, is more like "The poor don't get to live in a community." *insert ben shapiro meme quote about reality not caring about your feelings*
Do you think Ben Shapiro would be proud of the way you controlled the conversation away from racism and into gentrification?
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On February 13 2019 03:11 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 03:07 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 03:01 Gahlo wrote:On February 13 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 02:35 Plansix wrote:
And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification. The poor don't get to live in a nicer community who can fund it, big surprise! What you're looking for, and what the point is that you're overlooking, is more like "The poor don't get to live in a community." *insert ben shapiro meme quote about reality not caring about your feelings* Why though? Reality in this case is something that we as a society choose. It doesn't have to be a society where we shit on the poor from a great height, if that happens its because we have chosen for it to be that way, and some people will fight against that. The reality of what happens to the poor specifically is something that changes over time, so if your whole argument is "Well that's reality so suck it" then you might as well just keep it to yourself.
do you have a realistic solution to "gentrification" ?
Home values rise. people who were living there sell their home, and make good money doing so, helping them relocate and live within their income means. I don't get the problem here.
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On February 13 2019 03:15 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 03:11 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 13 2019 03:07 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 03:01 Gahlo wrote:On February 13 2019 02:56 youngjiddle wrote:On February 13 2019 02:35 Plansix wrote:
And the left doesn't specifically hate gentrification. They hate the part where the poor people don't get to take part in the community that is improved by said gentrification. The poor don't get to live in a nicer community who can fund it, big surprise! What you're looking for, and what the point is that you're overlooking, is more like "The poor don't get to live in a community." *insert ben shapiro meme quote about reality not caring about your feelings* Why though? Reality in this case is something that we as a society choose. It doesn't have to be a society where we shit on the poor from a great height, if that happens its because we have chosen for it to be that way, and some people will fight against that. The reality of what happens to the poor specifically is something that changes over time, so if your whole argument is "Well that's reality so suck it" then you might as well just keep it to yourself. do you have a realistic solution to "gentrification" ? Home values rise. people who were living there sell their home, and make good money doing so, helping them relocate and live within their income means. I don't get the problem here.
Gentrification isn't always bad.The sad fact, however, is that it is often done in such a way as to exacerbate existing issues that the poor have. Look at the politics and events that led up to the Grenfell Tower fire in the UK if you want an example of gentrification done in a really bad way.
Giving the poor a say in what happens to their communities and having representatives in local government who are willing to listen to these communities is a great way of mitigating any damaging effects of gentrification, but often the people are simply ignored in the face of business pressures.
I don't think it needs a solution as much as some oversight to ensure that people aren't treated like shit with no option to fight against it.
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Another prime problem with gentrification is that is eliminates a lot affordable housing due to rising housing costs. Which is fine on its own, but can cause problems if there is no other affordable housing in the area. It forces the poor to move to areas that might be well outside of their ability to travel to their job and so on.
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On February 13 2019 03:32 Plansix wrote:
Another prime problem with gentrification is that is eliminates a lot affordable housing due to rising housing costs. Which is fine on its own, but can cause problems if there is no other affordable housing in the area. It forces the poor to move to areas that might be well outside of their ability to travel to their job and so on.
Replacing an area with another area with twice the amount of living spaces (apartments) would counteract a lot of that. Letting people move from surrounding areas and freeing up places close enough to work. If you just replace with the same amount or less you will have problems.
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