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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 14 2015 11:37 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:35 m4ini wrote:On November 14 2015 11:32 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:27 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 11:24 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic. When a majority of the populace has disdain for believing in a tribalisic tradition of women being subservient and so on then it can have dramatic effects. Can someone give me actual examples of Islam belittling women? Can't offer more than some examples from the koran, but one cannot say that this might give a sub-optimal view of the value of women vs men corpus.quran.com I love how this is always the verse that people bring up because they never take the verses around it for context which pretty much say when it says "Strike" that if the force you apply is enough to change the color of her skin (aka her blood leaving that area) then you have struck her to hard. In other words YOU ARE NOT ALOUD BY THE QUR'AN TO HIT YOUR WIFE. Furthermore when I made that post the point I was trying to make was that either people would bring up this verse or say something about Saudi etc. Well I have explained this verse. As for actual examples, I am saying you have to take that as a case by case basis, because you can't say saudis dont let women drive, saudi is predominately muslim, therefore islam belittles women. Let's put it this way. A book that can give birth to the Sharia is quite bad in my world. And if you actually wanna try and argue with me now that Sharia isn't "belittling" (or flatout discriminating) women, .. Sharia=law in Arabic. There is no book of Sharia. Sharia is the comprehensive idea of the teachings from Quran hadith and sunnah about how a Muslim should live his/her life. Sharia is me fasting during the month of ramadan, or praying 5 times idea. Sharia doesn't tell me to blow myself up or beat someone up because she is a women.
No, i meant the quran with "book", that gave birth to Sharia.
Sharia is a comprehensive idea of fuck off, you really arguing that the Sharia is NOT discriminating towards women?
Feel free to explain to me, for example, how inheritance works under Sharia. A sister and a brother, who gets what?
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On November 14 2015 11:38 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
Let me ask you this, and granted this is primarily directed at America, because that is the country of my birth and I actually know enough about it to bring this up but, how many female presidents/heads of state have we elected? 0 You can't say the same about Pakistan Turkey Bangladesh etc ur joking.....
Where there any female heads of state I was missing?
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On November 14 2015 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
Let me ask you this, and granted this is primarily directed at America, because that is the country of my birth and I actually know enough about it to bring this up but, how many female presidents/heads of state have we elected? 0 You can't say the same about Pakistan Turkey Bangladesh etc
I don't want to misinterpret your point before I respond - are you saying that women in Bangladesh are better off than in the USA because the USA, a country of over 300 million people of whom women are the majority voters, hasn't elected a female president yet in less than 50 tries?
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On November 14 2015 11:38 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
Let me ask you this, and granted this is primarily directed at America, because that is the country of my birth and I actually know enough about it to bring this up but, how many female presidents/heads of state have we elected? 0 You can't say the same about Pakistan Turkey Bangladesh etc ur joking.....
It was only a matter of time before some ridiculous apologism showed up.
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Anytime this topic comes up it blows my mind that people treat religion and culture independently. Are you really trying to argue that middle eastern culture is not sexist?
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This thread is proving the point I was making when I said it doesn't matter what moderates say/do. No matter what people will ONLY focus on the extremely small minority regardless of the fact 99.999% of us aren't doing this stuff.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 14 2015 11:24 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic. When a majority of the populace has disdain for believing in a tribalisic tradition of women being subservient and so on then it can have dramatic effects. Can someone give me actual examples of Islam belittling women?
Women are counted as half a man's witness. There's a couple mentions of women's reasoning abilities throughout the Quran and the hadiths are full of that kind of stuff, although the credence you give those might vary depending on what type of Islam you practice.
Either way, there are explicit parts of the Quran that treat women lower than men because *spoiler alert* those sections are also contained within Judaism (which means it's also passed on to many parts of Christianity.) It's not as explicit as most people make it out to be, especially compared to what wahhabism has done but the sentiment is baked into the source, so it's reflected in all three major religions.
Really what the discussion comes down to is what % of the religion still clings to archaic/barbaric interpretations and why. The answer to that generally comes down to political/economic situation of the groups.
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Yeah I think involving moderate muslims is a great idea. We need to foster a culture where families in the ghettos are encouraged to keep close track on each other - suspicious taste in youtube, tv or porn warrants immediate reporting. Reading habits and clothes must be closely monitored. Have both uniformed and undercover security personal patrol the streets and communities of the ghettos, making sure that everyone keeps stays diligent. People who are reported, or people who are shown not to participate in the reporting should be arrested. But none of this trial bull crap, the bureaucracy that comes with judges and courthouses is the essence of why europe is so weak and inefficient when it comes to matters like this. No the people who are arrested in this context need to disappear, quickly and quietly. It's the only way we can stay safe in the face of this onslaught of violence against our very hearts. Burn their passports, and send them out of the country. Maybe to Madagascar.
It's either that or we try to build a society where people care about each other and there are no ghettos.
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On November 14 2015 11:42 Cricketer12 wrote:
This thread is proving the point I was making when I said it doesn't matter what moderates say/do. No matter what people will ONLY focus on the extremely small minority regardless of the fact 99.999% of us aren't doing this stuff.
Dude, you're not "a moderate". You're an apologist.
There's a huge difference.
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On November 14 2015 11:39 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:37 ref4 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
Let me ask you this, and granted this is primarily directed at America, because that is the country of my birth and I actually know enough about it to bring this up but, how many female presidents/heads of state have we elected? 0 You can't say the same about Pakistan Turkey Bangladesh etc wtf does that have to do with anything in this threadand judging by the look of things we'll have Madame President Clinton 2016. we have been having a discussion about the attack in Paris. Which of course devolved into an argument on Islam. Part of which discussed the state of women in Islam. Hence the relevance...and dear God I hope we don't get Clinton. Granted she can't be worse than trump....
There isn't a 50/50 gender quota needed to be fill for world leaders. The ones that are most qualified are elected. It just so happens that Hilary has the most impressive CV for 2016, albeit it's one soaked with oil and blood more than anyone else's.
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On November 14 2015 11:41 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
Let me ask you this, and granted this is primarily directed at America, because that is the country of my birth and I actually know enough about it to bring this up but, how many female presidents/heads of state have we elected? 0 You can't say the same about Pakistan Turkey Bangladesh etc I don't want to misinterpret your point before I respond - are you saying that women in Bangladesh are better off than in the USA because the USA, a country of over 300 million people of whom women are the majority voters, hasn't elected a female president yet in less than 50 tries?
I think he is saying that people are woefully uninformed about the state of women's rights in countries like Pakistan, Turkey and Banglades. But they like to claim that every Muslim country is terrible to its women, which is false. They are not perfect, but neither is the USA.
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On November 14 2015 11:42 Vin{MBL} wrote:
Anytime this topic comes up it blows my mind that people treat religion and culture independently. Are you really trying to argue that middle eastern culture is not sexist?
No, what I am saying is that you can't make generalizations, because that's unintelligent. You have to look at each individual scenario.
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On November 14 2015 11:33 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic. When a majority of the populace has disdain for believing in a tribalisic tradition of women being subservient and so on then it can have dramatic effects. So you rather people go all McCarthy on their own families? Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
That isn't even remotely related to what I was saying.
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On November 14 2015 11:32 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:27 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 11:24 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic. When a majority of the populace has disdain for believing in a tribalisic tradition of women being subservient and so on then it can have dramatic effects. Can someone give me actual examples of Islam belittling women? Can't offer more than some examples from the koran, but one cannot say that this might give a sub-optimal view of the value of women vs men corpus.quran.com I love how this is always the verse that people bring up because they never take the verses around it for context which pretty much say when it says "Strike" that if the force you apply is enough to change the color of her skin (aka her blood leaving that area) then you have struck her to hard. In other words YOU ARE NOT ALOUD BY THE QUR'AN TO HIT YOUR WIFE. Furthermore when I made that post the point I was trying to make was that either people would bring up this verse or say something about Saudi etc. Well I have explained this verse. As for actual examples, I am saying you have to take that as a case by case basis, because you can't say saudis dont let women drive, saudi is predominately muslim, therefore islam belittles women.
ah yeah sure that's just what came off the top of my head. So sure if you read it well enough and include other verses and sentences, hitting your wife isn't that defendable. But what about the rest? I'd say that also counts as belittling.
That's also not the conclusion many men in muslim majority countries come to though, after reading or being taught that men are more valuable or powerful than women, that they can have 4 wives, that they have a stronger custody right after the child has passed a certain age, that male inheritance is higher than a woman's, that the business of divorce is much easier for a man than a woman etc. I mean domestic abuse rates are amongst the highest in very islamic areas as far as I know.(specifically thinking about domestic violence statistics from Iran(though admittedly, Iran might not be a fair example), and the great increase in rape cases where male muslims are involved in for example sweden)
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
On November 14 2015 11:42 Cricketer12 wrote:
This thread is proving the point I was making when I said it doesn't matter what moderates say/do. No matter what people will ONLY focus on the extremely small minority regardless of the fact 99.999% of us aren't doing this stuff.
yes the 99.999% wont pick up a rifle and slaughter civilians. what do u think that number will drop to when u start asking how many people outright condemn these acts?
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On November 14 2015 11:43 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:42 Cricketer12 wrote:
This thread is proving the point I was making when I said it doesn't matter what moderates say/do. No matter what people will ONLY focus on the extremely small minority regardless of the fact 99.999% of us aren't doing this stuff. Dude, you're not "a moderate". You're an apologist. There's a huge difference.
You are also proving his point.
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On November 14 2015 11:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:41 oBlade wrote:On November 14 2015 11:34 Cricketer12 wrote:
Let me ask you this, and granted this is primarily directed at America, because that is the country of my birth and I actually know enough about it to bring this up but, how many female presidents/heads of state have we elected? 0 You can't say the same about Pakistan Turkey Bangladesh etc I don't want to misinterpret your point before I respond - are you saying that women in Bangladesh are better off than in the USA because the USA, a country of over 300 million people of whom women are the majority voters, hasn't elected a female president yet in less than 50 tries? I think he is saying that people are woefully uninformed about the state of women's rights in countries like Pakistan, Turkey and Banglades. But they like to claim that every Muslim country is terrible to its women, which is false. They are not perfect, but neither is the USA.
I am not saying that Muslims are perfect. Nor am I denying that there exist countries with a Muslim majority that have a less than desirable standard of living for women. I am saying that Islam doesn't promote this. It goes against it.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I for one am glad to be able to read Cricketer's perspective on this topic.
Thanks Cricketer. Keep up the good fight.
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On November 14 2015 11:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:43 m4ini wrote:On November 14 2015 11:42 Cricketer12 wrote:
This thread is proving the point I was making when I said it doesn't matter what moderates say/do. No matter what people will ONLY focus on the extremely small minority regardless of the fact 99.999% of us aren't doing this stuff. Dude, you're not "a moderate". You're an apologist. There's a huge difference. You are also proving his point.
Do i? I asked him a specific question, that he didn't answer. I assume it's because he knows that it would look bad. I didn't prove his point, in fact i was one of the first here that said "don't jump to conclusions" when it comes to Islam.
What he's doing is, again, making excuses or straight up dodging very real issues with Islam/Sharia, and flatout refusing that it promotes discrimination/belittling of women (btw not just them, but that's a different story).
I am saying that Islam doesn't promote this. It goes against it.
So just for my understanding - maybe i'm actually wrong. The Koran/Quran actually disagrees with Sharia, is that right?
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On November 14 2015 11:32 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:27 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 11:24 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic. When a majority of the populace has disdain for believing in a tribalisic tradition of women being subservient and so on then it can have dramatic effects. Can someone give me actual examples of Islam belittling women? Can't offer more than some examples from the koran, but one cannot say that this might give a sub-optimal view of the value of women vs men corpus.quran.com I love how this is always the verse that people bring up because they never take the verses around it for context which pretty much say when it says "Strike" that if the force you apply is enough to change the color of her skin (aka her blood leaving that area) then you have struck her to hard. In other words YOU ARE NOT ALOUD BY THE QUR'AN TO HIT YOUR WIFE. Furthermore when I made that post the point I was trying to make was that either people would bring up this verse or say something about Saudi etc. Well I have explained this verse. As for actual examples, I am saying you have to take that as a case by case basis, because you can't say saudis dont let women drive, saudi is predominately muslim, therefore islam belittles women.
Ok, now it's been a long time since I've read the Quran, but even I can remember the Surah about how you can't trust a woman over a man. Stuff about how they are stupid etc.
Religion is fucking backwards shit from a time we have passed. If you can find comfort in believing, then good for you, but acting as if the prophecies aren't totally outdated and _always_ serve to benefit the prophet (just look at the last couple Surahs...) is straight-up silly.
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