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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 14 2015 11:08 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 10:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 10:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This seems to be a good time to point to moderate Islam to be louder that hate but also boycott Saudi Wahhabism whether it's the Mosque they build or charities they start. And of course Secular education doesn't hurt either. Moderate Islam doesn't need to be louder in denouncing acts of terror, clearly it doesn't matter how loud we are, people will continue to hate and fear what they do not understand, nor are they willing to understand. That does not mean I have no sympathy for the french families and friends who lost loved ones, what I am saying is that it is ridiculous to say "moderate Islam needs to be louder". The fact that you say that proves there is no point in us saying jackshit because we DO denounce this stuff, because we are morally sound human beings goddamnit. I don't believe the point is that moderate Islam needs to be "louder" to stop people from mistaking moderates for extremists. I doubt StealthBlue was trying to attack your moral compass. I think the point is that moderate Islam needs to be louder because Islamic extremism hurts Muslims more than anyone else, and is a greater problem for Muslims than it is for the world in general. That moderates need to be loud in order to defeat extremism themselves.
Well first off the people most hurt are the victims, these actions are abominable. But yes, I agree it does hurt Muslims a lot. The question I pose is what should moderates do that we aren't already doing?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities.
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On November 14 2015 11:10 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 10:59 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 10:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 10:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This seems to be a good time to point to moderate Islam to be louder that hate but also boycott Saudi Wahhabism whether it's the Mosque they build or charities they start. And of course Secular education doesn't hurt either. Moderate Islam doesn't need to be louder in denouncing acts of terror, clearly it doesn't matter how loud we are, people will continue to hate and fear what they do not understand, nor are they willing to understand. That does not mean I have no sympathy for the french families and friends who lost loved ones, what I am saying is that it is ridiculous to say "moderate Islam needs to be louder". The fact that you say that proves there is no point in us saying jackshit because we DO denounce this stuff, because we are morally sound human beings goddamnit. Yeah I agree it's not an issue of having to be louder anymore, it's more about effectively reaching impressionable masses But how active are religious leaders in muslim majority countries in teaching some of the more "problematic" chapters as spiritual struggles, or something else than the literal meaning of them? I'm asking out of curiosity and because I don't know, I've just gotten the impression that the Koran is usually interpreted literally and is taught as such Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Sudan, Yemen, Iran combined nearly have the world's have muslim population. The centers of muslimic believes are Saudi Arabia for Sunni Islam and Iran for Shia Islam. I probably don't have to tell you what they teach in Saudi Arabia. They still behead people for witchery and black magic. Apostasy is punishable by death, same as being gay, women are third rate citizens and so on. In Iran several thousands of homosexuals were hanged on cranes since the revolution. Here's an article about that http://observer.com/2015/05/how-iran-solved-its-gay-marriage-problem/Pakistan north of Peshawar is taliban land. In Bangladesh "death for atheists and apostates" is a majority position. There are regularly demonstrations with 100 000's of people who demand exactly that. Sudan is sharia land I have a fairly good idea where the extremism comes from which we see in the mideast mostly but also in the west from time to time, it is islamic teachings in these countries and the importance of these teachings in the every day life of the inhabitants of these countries. I still remember the big demonstrations in some islamic countries after the CH attack actually supporting it.
I am going to stop you right there when you say Saudi is the core of Sunnis. Geographically is is the country that contains the cities of Mecca and Medina? Yes. Outside of that, and maybe Saudi's declaration that its Ramadan or not (by looking at the moon) no one gives a shit about Saudi. No one is applauding Saudi for saying women can't drive etc. Saudi may just be the most extreme/radical country with a Muslim majority. That means that we treat them as an outlier, not as the shining example.
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On November 14 2015 11:00 oneofthem wrote:
browsing that great repository of enlightened european culture, hltv. a lot of posters are blaming america and israel for the attacks. kind of interesting
are you actually giving credit to hltv ? hahaha
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On November 14 2015 11:03 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 10:51 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 10:49 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 10:47 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 10:44 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 10:39 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 10:38 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 10:37 ZeroChrome wrote:On November 14 2015 10:35 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 10:32 DickMcFanny wrote:
[quote]
We can keep telling ourselves that until we all live in one big, happy caliphate.
In the meanwhile, we're just Chamberlaining around and count ourselves lucky not to be jew, women or gays. Religion does not comes from nowhere. The problem is the inability of our countries to integrate its people, due to the lack of work, the lack of solidarity and the lack of meaning. That some find solace in the practice of a religion and that a minority within the minority interpret this religion in a violent manner is not the reason but merely the effect of our problems. They may not be directly causing violence but the majority of muslims in the world support sharia law, which is still a problem. It's not happening in the world but in France. It is a french problem, not a world issue. Oh boy, the people of the world must be so pleased to hear that Islamic-sourced terrorism is a french phenomenon Well Islamic sourced terrorism is a world affair, maybe, much like communism had universal impact, but the shape it take greatly changed from one country to another. There has been no terrorist attack in Russia, there's more people going to syria from france and belgium than from any other country in the world, and most likely the people who did those attacks were french, like the Kouachi brothers and Coulibaly before them. With what tribalistic community did all those identify with again? I will respond with another question : Why do they identify as they do ? Maybe because they are muslims And here is the problem : the first wave of immigrants did not identify at all as muslim, but by their nation of origin : in france there were algerian, kabyle (algerian ethnicity), tunisian, etc. Now their kids identify as muslim, so it's obvious that something changed and made those kids as identify as muslim. They are not muslim by essence.
I suppose increased religious fervor is a way of holding on to identity for many refugees or immigrants, so a more efficient way of integrating them within the french community could alleviate some of the pressure, yeah. But that does not change the fact that religion, maybe especially Islam, is divisive and tribalistic by nature, and that it is definitely the biggest motivator for the people carrying out these acts
and as a side-note, absolutely no one is Islamic or Christian by essence or nature at all, it's a matter of nurture. So if these beliefs are a matter of nurture, and the source material for this upbringing is the koran and the hadith etc, it seems reasonable to argue that there might be something inherently violent about the religion itself? I don't think that's trying to argue that Islam is the source of all the evil, just that saying it is definitely not a problem at all is way too dismissive
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On November 14 2015 11:11 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:08 oBlade wrote:On November 14 2015 10:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 10:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This seems to be a good time to point to moderate Islam to be louder that hate but also boycott Saudi Wahhabism whether it's the Mosque they build or charities they start. And of course Secular education doesn't hurt either. Moderate Islam doesn't need to be louder in denouncing acts of terror, clearly it doesn't matter how loud we are, people will continue to hate and fear what they do not understand, nor are they willing to understand. That does not mean I have no sympathy for the french families and friends who lost loved ones, what I am saying is that it is ridiculous to say "moderate Islam needs to be louder". The fact that you say that proves there is no point in us saying jackshit because we DO denounce this stuff, because we are morally sound human beings goddamnit. I don't believe the point is that moderate Islam needs to be "louder" to stop people from mistaking moderates for extremists. I doubt StealthBlue was trying to attack your moral compass. I think the point is that moderate Islam needs to be louder because Islamic extremism hurts Muslims more than anyone else, and is a greater problem for Muslims than it is for the world in general. That moderates need to be loud in order to defeat extremism themselves. Well first off the people most hurt are the victims, these actions are abominable. But yes, I agree it does hurt Muslims a lot. The question I pose is what should moderates do that we aren't already doing?
I think you moderates are the actual minority, no offence to your religion, see my last post. The few million muslims in the west do nothing to manifest islam and it's teachings, this happens in the centres of the religion and these centres are in very, very backward countries where islamic teachers instill their backward violent views into millions.
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On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities.
And go on the streets, showing people that terrorists and muslims are in fact two different things.
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No, his opinion is correct and it's the most intelligent stance on religion. Fuck religion.
Religion has mountains of evidence against it. Yet a person chooses to blindly believe out of a really willful stupidity. Billions are wrong in this case.
It is not a coincidence that with the rise of information and education comes the decline of religion. People using it as a cornerstone for their existence is most definitely wrong and religion has only hindered human progress. If you have a connection to the internet and are still religious, you are truly a special kind of stupid.
Even if this attack was not religious based in itself, and was more "how dare you participate in Iraq and Syria" that really has nothing to do with the fact that religion isn't a massive problem in the world, and causes far more harm than good.
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On November 14 2015 11:11 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:08 oBlade wrote:On November 14 2015 10:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 10:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This seems to be a good time to point to moderate Islam to be louder that hate but also boycott Saudi Wahhabism whether it's the Mosque they build or charities they start. And of course Secular education doesn't hurt either. Moderate Islam doesn't need to be louder in denouncing acts of terror, clearly it doesn't matter how loud we are, people will continue to hate and fear what they do not understand, nor are they willing to understand. That does not mean I have no sympathy for the french families and friends who lost loved ones, what I am saying is that it is ridiculous to say "moderate Islam needs to be louder". The fact that you say that proves there is no point in us saying jackshit because we DO denounce this stuff, because we are morally sound human beings goddamnit. I don't believe the point is that moderate Islam needs to be "louder" to stop people from mistaking moderates for extremists. I doubt StealthBlue was trying to attack your moral compass. I think the point is that moderate Islam needs to be louder because Islamic extremism hurts Muslims more than anyone else, and is a greater problem for Muslims than it is for the world in general. That moderates need to be loud in order to defeat extremism themselves. Well first off the people most hurt are the victims, these actions are abominable. But yes, I agree it does hurt Muslims a lot. The question I pose is what should moderates do that we aren't already doing?
Yes, the people most hurt by violence are the victims of that violence, in this case, the people who were shot and bombed suddenly by random strangers. I was speaking in a global context. Islamic extremism and sectarian violence's main victim is Muslims, isn't it?
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On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities.
okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans
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On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans
I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic.
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On November 14 2015 11:18 AngryMag wrote:
and there's also the notion that many muslims are moderate and fairly secular when talking to secular people, and then get more fundamentalistic with their views when they are surrounded by other muslims. I think this can be argued for many of the "muslim" zones in some european countries, for example sweden
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On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic.
Don't be dense.
If a dude sees his brother starting to watch the wrong stuff, changes in behaviour etc - he can report that YEARS before intelligence catches up on that.
Other than popular beliefs, security agencies don't have bugs in every appartment.
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On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic.
When a majority of the populace has disdain for believing in a tribalisic tradition of women being subservient and so on then it can have dramatic effects.
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On November 14 2015 11:15 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:11 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:08 oBlade wrote:On November 14 2015 10:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 10:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This seems to be a good time to point to moderate Islam to be louder that hate but also boycott Saudi Wahhabism whether it's the Mosque they build or charities they start. And of course Secular education doesn't hurt either. Moderate Islam doesn't need to be louder in denouncing acts of terror, clearly it doesn't matter how loud we are, people will continue to hate and fear what they do not understand, nor are they willing to understand. That does not mean I have no sympathy for the french families and friends who lost loved ones, what I am saying is that it is ridiculous to say "moderate Islam needs to be louder". The fact that you say that proves there is no point in us saying jackshit because we DO denounce this stuff, because we are morally sound human beings goddamnit. I don't believe the point is that moderate Islam needs to be "louder" to stop people from mistaking moderates for extremists. I doubt StealthBlue was trying to attack your moral compass. I think the point is that moderate Islam needs to be louder because Islamic extremism hurts Muslims more than anyone else, and is a greater problem for Muslims than it is for the world in general. That moderates need to be loud in order to defeat extremism themselves. Well first off the people most hurt are the victims, these actions are abominable. But yes, I agree it does hurt Muslims a lot. The question I pose is what should moderates do that we aren't already doing? I think you moderates are the actual minority, no offence to your religion, see my last post. The few million muslims in the west do nothing to manifest islam and it's teachings, this happens in the centres of the religion and these centres are in very, very backward countries where islamic teachers instill their backward violent vies into millions.
I don't see where people are coming from when they say stuff like this. Take for example the bullshit misconception that Islam is anti-semetic. If you look back to when the romans drove the Jews out of Jerusalem it was Muslims (the Caliph Umar) that invited them back when the Muslims conquered it. The Crusaders drove out Muslims and Jews a few centuries later. Then Sallahuddin (Saladin) invited the Jews back when the Muslims regained control of the city. This isn't me saying that Christianity is bad. This is me saying that Islam isn't either. Islam has some of the most sophisticated moral codes and rule sets, and nearly all the claims made against it are bullshit. Furthermore people attempt to look at something that was done in the 8th century A.D and look at it with our 21st century morality and then say "well based on this Islam is backwards". Bullshit. If you are going to look at the past, look at it with a perspective of the past.
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Man this is awful news  i hope this doesn't happen again or escalate
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On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans
He is absolutly right, I have personnal knowledge about people, in mosque in the area I live, pushing young kids to go in syria and moderate muslim either doing nothing against it or just kicking the radicals out without ever reporting to the police.
On November 14 2015 11:15 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:03 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 10:51 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 10:49 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 10:47 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 10:44 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 10:39 Aocowns wrote:On November 14 2015 10:38 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 10:37 ZeroChrome wrote:On November 14 2015 10:35 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Religion does not comes from nowhere. The problem is the inability of our countries to integrate its people, due to the lack of work, the lack of solidarity and the lack of meaning. That some find solace in the practice of a religion and that a minority within the minority interpret this religion in a violent manner is not the reason but merely the effect of our problems. They may not be directly causing violence but the majority of muslims in the world support sharia law, which is still a problem. It's not happening in the world but in France. It is a french problem, not a world issue. Oh boy, the people of the world must be so pleased to hear that Islamic-sourced terrorism is a french phenomenon Well Islamic sourced terrorism is a world affair, maybe, much like communism had universal impact, but the shape it take greatly changed from one country to another. There has been no terrorist attack in Russia, there's more people going to syria from france and belgium than from any other country in the world, and most likely the people who did those attacks were french, like the Kouachi brothers and Coulibaly before them. With what tribalistic community did all those identify with again? I will respond with another question : Why do they identify as they do ? Maybe because they are muslims And here is the problem : the first wave of immigrants did not identify at all as muslim, but by their nation of origin : in france there were algerian, kabyle (algerian ethnicity), tunisian, etc. Now their kids identify as muslim, so it's obvious that something changed and made those kids as identify as muslim. They are not muslim by essence. I suppose increased religious fervor is a way of holding on to identity for many refugees or immigrants, so a more efficient way of integrating them within the french community could alleviate some of the pressure, yeah. But that does not change the fact that religion, maybe especially Islam, is divisive and tribalistic by nature, and that it is definitely the biggest motivator for the people carrying out these acts and as a side-note, absolutely no one is Islamic or Christian by essence or nature at all, it's a matter of nurture. So if these beliefs are a matter of nurture, and the source material for this upbringing is the koran and the hadith etc, it seems reasonable to argue that there might be something inherently violent about the religion itself? I don't think that's trying to argue that Islam is the source of all the evil, just that saying it is definitely not a problem at all is way too dismissive
I see it very differently from you. To me, the increase religious fervor is not a way of holding to an "identity" that preexist and determine them, but is a way to gain an identity. They can't identify with the country of origin of their parents due to distance nor can they identify with France for various reasons - lack of integration and autonomy, lack of value added with being french as no one actually value france anymore aside from the national front. Religion structure identity because there is nothing competing.
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On November 14 2015 11:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic. When a majority of the populace has disdain for believing in a tribalisic tradition of women being subservient and so on then it can have dramatic effects.
Can someone give me actual examples of Islam belittling women?
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On November 14 2015 11:24 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On November 14 2015 11:20 Plansix wrote:On November 14 2015 11:16 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:14 oneofthem wrote:
moderate muslims, report suspicious radicals to authorities. okay, that's a good idea, except no one is declaring in the middle of a sermon "Death to nonbelievers" etc. The reason for this I think is that these people either aren't in the masjids or recognize that will report their dumbasses if they told us their fucked up opinions/plans I have never understood why people think that moderate Muslims could do this. These terrorists evade national security agencies, but moderate Mulsims can stop them because....magic. When a majority of the populace has disdain for believing in a tribalisic tradition of women being subservient and so on then it can have dramatic effects. Can someone give me actual examples of Islam belittling women?
You serious?
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EPT
