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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
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Nuclear in Switzerland means the old centrals that we have, not the fancy chinese reactors that you seem very proud to know about. If those centrals really are safe and really are the future, then we'll get to talk about them again. Until then we are stuck with the present and it's pretty clear we made the right choice there.
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Agreed but the point Is that investments into nuclear would mean these Chinese cutting edge facilities replacing those old reactors and making new ones.
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New investment into nuclear energy only makes sense in economies with a growing energy sector, the investment into new reactors cannot be justified with a shrinking consumer base. The industry will not be able to realize growing profits in the developed world, which would be required to pay off the investment.
The whole model of heavily centralised energy is done actually. Eon in Germany ran a 16 billion deficit this year, you can't serve a market that's not growing with this model. We're going to see an energy 'Mittelstand' that is pluralistic and reflects the new demands better. Renewables are suited for this, nuclear energy and coal are not. Gas is reasonable for the transition.
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Centralized energy is going to work for centralized needs for it. Rual and suburban needs I think would be better served through solar and wind but urban areas are going to need reactor levels of power be it gas coal or nuclear. Expecially if we want to turn cars into electric drawing motors.
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I am myself actually in favor of "new nuclear", but thats seems to be impossible politically here and our old reactors are, well, really old. I have many other issues with this bill but still remained supportive. Its not like there was any sane/possible alternative shown. We can also just look at this again in 10-20 years if major things change.
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On May 22 2017 06:05 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 02:17 Yurie wrote: So for old news. Sweden is looking at its driest summer in 100 years (according to ground water levels). Might be forced into water rationing, which means it still isn't horrible but if the trend of dry winters continues it could become a big problem.
How is it looking for the rest of Europe? Sweden surely doesn't have an overall lack of water, the nothern half is one huge swamp. I can imagine lack of watet in the south maybe, but even therr are huge lakes. You probably just need some channels and pipes and no longer depend on the habit to rain everywhere which the Scandinavian weather used to have.
That is true. The problem is the ground water levels. Not everybody and everything is connected to the city pipes (and likely never will be) so farmers and other rural places have problems with water. As far as I know no cities have said they will have problems but Gotland (island that is red) had some issues last year already.
The image is based on ground water level in March. So not the most up to date.
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Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water
Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion).
From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it).
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On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote:Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion). From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it).
The big problem with nuclear is the waste storage. You have to find some place that is not gonna leak the waste for a few thousands to a few hundred thousand years, depending on what type of waste you store there. That is not easy, and so far we have no good solution.
I think that that is a problem that one should figure out before producing even more waste that noone knows what to do with. I don't think it is an impossible challenge, but it definitively a major thing that needs to be resolved. I think if you want more nuclear, you should also commit to major investments in research regarding the waste disposal.
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On May 22 2017 17:22 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote:Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion). From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it). The big problem with nuclear is the waste storage. You have to find some place that is not gonna leak the waste for a few thousands to a few hundred thousand years, depending on what type of waste you store there. That is not easy, and so far we have no good solution. I think that that is a problem that one should figure out before producing even more waste that noone knows what to do with. I don't think it is an impossible challenge, but it definitively a major thing that needs to be resolved. I think if you want more nuclear, you should also commit to major investments in research regarding the waste disposal.
The waste storage is much less of a deal than people make it to be, because it carries with itself the motivation to deal with it. I don't really see a big issue in storing it "temporarily" and letting the next generations deal with it. Even if it means thousands of years of the same "temporary" storage as we do now, the volumes are funnily small and assuming continued technological progress, it will be less and less of a problem. Also if the future generations are smart, they will use nuclear power and just tag their waste along, or possibly find a good use for it. They will be, after all, nicely motivated by the fact that if they stop caring, it will pollute their world. Seems selfish, but to me it seems much cooler to leave the future generations with a couple of tons of radioactive waste than with all the fossile fuel depleted.
Should the civilization eventually end before solution is found, the slow release of the radiation from the abandoned temporary storages shouldn't majorly affect the biosphere in the long run, so we are golden anyway.
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On May 22 2017 17:22 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote:Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion). From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it). The big problem with nuclear is the waste storage. You have to find some place that is not gonna leak the waste for a few thousands to a few hundred thousand years, depending on what type of waste you store there. That is not easy, and so far we have no good solution. I think that that is a problem that one should figure out before producing even more waste that noone knows what to do with. I don't think it is an impossible challenge, but it definitively a major thing that needs to be resolved. I think if you want more nuclear, you should also commit to major investments in research regarding the waste disposal.
You're not up with the times and technology. Water-cooled reactors that utilize rods actually have most of the fissile material in a usable form for things like MSR's and other newer advances in reactor technology. In other words, the radioactive actinides that compose the "waste" from "spent" rods (read: cracked, but materially useful in other fission reactor technologies) are really just fuel for the next gen reactors. The next gen reactors themselves also have minimal storage requirements (beyond the fact that spent material is only radioactive for a couple hundred centuries instead of millenia). So, yeah, that problem is relatively solved (the technologies are mostly there; it's up to economies of scale to kick in and also beat back the luddite (or if you prefer anti-science) hysteria surrounding nuclear).
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On May 22 2017 17:51 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 17:22 Simberto wrote:On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote:Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion). From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it). The big problem with nuclear is the waste storage. You have to find some place that is not gonna leak the waste for a few thousands to a few hundred thousand years, depending on what type of waste you store there. That is not easy, and so far we have no good solution. I think that that is a problem that one should figure out before producing even more waste that noone knows what to do with. I don't think it is an impossible challenge, but it definitively a major thing that needs to be resolved. I think if you want more nuclear, you should also commit to major investments in research regarding the waste disposal. You're not up with the times and technology. Water-cooled reactors that utilize rods actually have most of the fissile material in a usable form for things like MSR's and other newer advances in reactor technology. In other words, the radioactive actinides that compose the "waste" from "spent" rods (read: cracked, but materially useful in other fission reactor technologies) are really just fuel for the next gen reactors. The next gen reactors themselves also have minimal storage requirements (beyond the fact that spent material is only radioactive for a couple hundred centuries instead of millenia). So, yeah, that problem is relatively solved (the technologies are mostly there; it's up to economies of scale to kick in and also beat back the luddite (or if you prefer anti-science) hysteria surrounding nuclear).
While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I didn't expect this argument from you, especially given the security issues of "easy" weaponization of the waste of next-gen reactors.
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On May 22 2017 17:58 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 17:51 Wegandi wrote:On May 22 2017 17:22 Simberto wrote:On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote:Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion). From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it). The big problem with nuclear is the waste storage. You have to find some place that is not gonna leak the waste for a few thousands to a few hundred thousand years, depending on what type of waste you store there. That is not easy, and so far we have no good solution. I think that that is a problem that one should figure out before producing even more waste that noone knows what to do with. I don't think it is an impossible challenge, but it definitively a major thing that needs to be resolved. I think if you want more nuclear, you should also commit to major investments in research regarding the waste disposal. You're not up with the times and technology. Water-cooled reactors that utilize rods actually have most of the fissile material in a usable form for things like MSR's and other newer advances in reactor technology. In other words, the radioactive actinides that compose the "waste" from "spent" rods (read: cracked, but materially useful in other fission reactor technologies) are really just fuel for the next gen reactors. The next gen reactors themselves also have minimal storage requirements (beyond the fact that spent material is only radioactive for a couple hundred centuries instead of millenia). So, yeah, that problem is relatively solved (the technologies are mostly there; it's up to economies of scale to kick in and also beat back the luddite (or if you prefer anti-science) hysteria surrounding nuclear). While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I didn't expect this argument from you, especially given the security issues of "easy" weaponization of the waste of next-gen reactors.
I'm generally opposed to nuclear proliferation, yes (though I understand the desire of other states to defend themselves, especially against aggressive powers like the US), but Gen IV reactors have far less capability in regards to nuclear proliferation (weaponized), than the water-cooled old reactors. They burn hotter and the material is less useful (as evidenced by the radioactive shelf-life). The big advantage economically for Gen IV's is that they can be scaled down so they cost less individually, and can utilize economies of scale to make power production even cheaper. So, yes, while there will be more of the Gen IV's (which is good imho), the risk of proliferation is extremely minimal. Weighing the pros and cons, it's obvious, especially given how disastrous majority reliance on wind and solar would be for civilization. So, yeah, bring the Gen IV's on baby. Swiss can live in the dark ages - I just have to beat the environmental luddites in the US back by the bushels. :p
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The campaign for législatives has officially begun.
• The voting system is a two-round system by constituency where every candidate who scores more than 12,5% of registered voters can advance to the second round (if this condition isn't met by anyone, the first two advance). With a high abstention the qualification threshold is quite high ; for instance, with 40% of abstention, you need 20.83% of expressed votes to advance + Show Spoiler +. In the second round, whoever gets the most votes wins. • A party gets ~1.42€ per vote every year during the mandate (~37,3k€ per elected député if the party is above 1% in at least 50 constituencies). • Absolute majority is 289/577 députés. You need 15 députés to form a parliamentary group, 58 to initiate a censure motion.
37% of the outgoing députés (212) don't run for their reelection, because of the anti-multiple offices bill, or because they were elected since the XIXth century and realized it's time to pass the torch, or because they know they would get stomped. Only ~100 députés were not candidate to their reelection in 2007 and 2012.
I skip parties with no chance of having any député elected:
+ Show Spoiler [Radical/critical left] +The radical/critical left is still dispersed. Mélenchon's movement, la France Insoumise, presents candidates almost everywhere (557), with 63% of them having no party. Mélenchon wants a national campaign linked with his result at the presidential (19,6%), and on the same program. The direction of the PCF wanted alliances with the whole critical left (ecologists and people who supported Hamon) and local arrangements, PS included; the PCF also has its own program. After several (6) attempts, no deal was reached and even talks about mutual withdrawals somewhat failed. There are a few constituencies where local deals were concluded; the FI won't present candidates against the PCF députés who sponsored Mélenchon (the PCF has 7 députés), same as some PCF candidates withdrew to support a FI one. The PCF has 484 candidates.
The FI has every FI candidate sign a charter which includes signing an anti-corruption charter, obeying to collective discipline on critical points, adopting the same program as the presidential, the same visuals and the logo φ. Basically the FI was opened to anyone on the left, but only if you defend their program (with a few local exceptions). The PCF refused the FI framework, perceiving it as a new hegemony within the left. They also have a few key programmatic disagreements on the EU, they don't want to abandon nuclear power, don't want a Constituent Assembly for a VIth Republic, etc. There's also a tactical collision: the FI is a new force, they want to settle in and aim at occupying the space left vacant by the collapse of the PS; while the PCF wishes to preserve his last strongholds and autonomy. The old disagreements and rancors from the Front de gauche (particularly from the 2012 presidential to 2015) are also not forgotten. The PCF gets 1-2% in polls compared with 14-16% for the FI.
As candidate, Mélenchon dropped himself in the poorest constituency of Marseille (the second biggest city in France, in which he arrived first), one where he scored almost 40% at the first round of the presidential. The incumbent député is a PS one who immediately started protesting on the theme “Mélenchon doesn't want to battle against the right or the far-right, instead he comes for a fratricidal fight within the left”. Mélenchon replied, “I don't want to weaken the PS, I want to replace it”. In 2012 he had chosen to fight Le Pen in her constituency; he had narrowly failed to advance to the second round, and the local bland social-democrat had won 50,1 : 49,9 against Le Pen in the second round (a 118 votes gap…). This time he chose a much easier constituency to lead the campaign. Two polls gave Mélenchon ahead in the first round with 35 and 38%, then winning 56:44 or 53:47 against Macron's candidate, with the outgoing PS député collapsing from 33% in 2012 to 13%.
Mélenchon aims at becoming Macron's number one opponent. (Well, he says that he wants to win the législatives, but…) A few minutes after Macron announced his right-wing Prime minister, Mélenchon held a brief priess conference saying: “Macron just took command of the whole traditional political class of this country. The old world is back under new and young garments. The right has just been annexed with a Prime minister coming from its ranks. The PS was already absorbed since dozens of its elected representatives or candidates asked Macron's investiture; and most of them just wait their election to join him. Last, the FN voters, after this party fulfilled the scarecrow role it's supposed to play, were abandoned as all their leaders deserted.” [Marine Le Pen had not yet announced her candidature at this time.] He thus claimed that he was the only serious opposition left to Macron. He warned two times: “do not give Macron the full powers” and concluded with a “let each of your ballots be a broom to sweep them all”.
+ Show Spoiler [Greens] +Ecologists present 459 candidates, support 52 PS ones and 16 PCF ones. They offered a deal to the FI (25% of the constituencies for them and the PS), which was refused. Ecologists had 17 députés thanks to their 2012 deal with the PS, and had an autonomous group until Hollande's mandate made it explode. (Ecologists are torn between socialist, social-democrats and liberal sensitivities: 38% of EELV sympathizers had voted Mélenchon, 22% Hamon and 19% Macron.) Ecologists existed as a satellite because of a still functional social-democracy, so this time they will be wiped.
+ Show Spoiler [The PS] +After their worst score since 50 years, the PS is in shambles. As soon as Hamon failed, the party apparatus whistled the end of the game and tossed overboard his program: the universal base income and various ecological measures such as leaving nuclear power or the end of diesel vehicles were ditched. The referendum on popular initiative was also removed, which at least shows some coherence: when your party was stomped in the last 6 elections, better not trust too much the people indeed.
The PS is now divided between no less than 4 lines. 1) People around Hamon will join the left-wing opposition; 2) the soft underbelly wants to survive; 3) some want a “critical support” to Macron, i.e. a disguised satellisation; 4) and some openly want to join Macron, yet are not excluded.
Valls' case is emblematic. He first declared that he wanted to be part of Macron's majority and asked the EM investiture. Macron's supporters were embarrassed, because Valls' return under their banner would have somewhat voided their PR talk about renewal, so they were like “uh, OK, but first you have to apply on the Internet page…” (The usual procedure.) Pundits started talking on the “Valls is being humiliated” theme while Internet was mocking Valls as, you know, the awkward guy who embarrasses everyone, yet no one dares to tell him he's too awkward and should go. EM finally decided not to decide: Valls didn't get the official EM investiture, but EM put no candidate against him. Valls publicly saluted the gesture, but privately sniveled to some journalists, saying Macron was “mean” (!).
The PS launched an internal exclusion procedure against Valls after he said he wanted to join Macron… yet didn't put any candidate against him! One of his closes, Malek Boutih, applied to join Macron, was denied… and still got the PS investiture afterwards. Chemically pure hypocrisy. Most of them are simply waiting Macron's triumph, then will make the move. There are dozens of PS candidates like that. At any rate, Valls has no EM or PS candidate against him. Valls has been député of the 91-1 constituency for 15 years, winning 65:35 against the mainstream right in 2012. This year it looks like Valls, unlabelled, will face the FI candidate (Mélenchon arrived first in Valls' town with 34%, followed with Macron at 26%; 28,8% vs 24,5% for the whole constituency). Hopefully he gets stomped again. This would be so perfect, the ex-Prime minister beaten by a noname, woman of color with immigrant background and trade unionist on top of that; given that Valls spent his time bashing both while governing, his defeat would be karma embodied.
Various PS ministers don't have an EM candidate against them in their constituency.
+ Show Spoiler [The presidential majority] +Macron's movement, En marche (Onwards), rechristened itself La République en marche (~Republic onwards).
EM has 526 candidates (half of them are from the “civil society,” mostly from the upper classes of course), the remaining 51 being “a gesture of openness” for various PS or LR personalities. In many constituencies Macron actually has 2 or 3 candidates given that the PS or LR candidate is ready to vote Macron's bills. You can thus choose your flavor of Macron, just like you can buy the same product under different packagings.
Six ministers from Macron's government are candidates; they will have to resign if they lose (if they win, their substitute takes their place in the Assemblée). Two of them seem pretty much guaranteed to win, others could be upset. + Show Spoiler [The right] +The right is slowly capitulating. Their legitimism comes to bite them: after all, it is their beloved regime which makes the presidential monarch sacred… A few weeks ago, Macron was Hollande's heir and the continuation of “socialism” (lol) … Now, they stutter to find credible motivations to oppose him. Hard to claim that there are substantial differences when Macron's Prime minister and the two key posts holding the moneybox are from your own ranks… Especially as Macron is pretty much a younger version of Juppé, the runner-up of their primary; admittedly not the first choice for the social base of the right, as the result showed, but still.
They held their only national meeting yesterday, where they claimed that they were going for the win to impose a “clear majority” to Macron. They barely bothered to look convinced by their own words and overplayed their opposition posture, claiming that Macron was “smuggled socialism” [disguised left]. Their leader apparently said privately that reaching 150 députés would be “good” (they had 227 in 2012). From a promised triumphant win in November 2016 to breathing a sigh of relief if you get more than 100 députés in June 2017: misery and decadence of the French right. Being annexed in less than a year in your own regime, oh my aching sides…
+ Show Spoiler [The sovereignist right] +After he rallied Le Pen, Nicolas Dupont-Aignan regoes full independancy and presents candidates pretty much everywhere (initially Le Pen and him were supposed to have a deal for 50 constituencies). A nice political suicide for nothing.
+ Show Spoiler [The far-right] +After Le Pen's failures, critical/dissident voices were pretty much smothered within the party, but tensions still simmer. Le Pen will once again lead the party to the defeat. They initially expected 40-50 députés, but it seems they might not even get 15… If their electorate is demobilized, they might get crumbs once again, like in 2012 where their 6,4 millions of votes at the presidential translated to 2 députés. The rival factions within the party only wait this to start devouring each other. The far-right is quite an unstable pole, without their momentum they can easily fall again into sectarian conflicts. Le Pen's father will for instance present between 150+ dissident candidates… including against her own daughter! For those people the FN is too soft and corrupted by “leftists” themes…
Summary of the main political spectrum: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aNMlXio.jpg)
Polls have EM ahead with a higher lead than in the presidential. The FI still seems dominant within the left, with a higher dispersion of votes so far but a slow rise in remobilization for FI. EM seems to get the “legitimism” post-win effect, takes a few votes left and right and had a momentum those last 2 weeks according to one poll company (see below). The mainstream right and the FN are around their presidential score with a slight decline.
+ Show Spoiler +
Projections are hard since 1) it's a vote by constituency, 2) we're in the post-win moment [Macron had the initiative and the advantage], 3) the campaign is just beginning, 4) we don't know how voters will react to the relative openness of the situation [according to previous polls, neither FI nor LR nor FN voters want Macron to have the majority], 5) we ignore the critical variable of the participation rate. EM should arrive first but their absolute majority is not guaranteed. The PS should be decimated. The FN could get almost nothing. A carnage for the left is not excluded either.
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Our dark ages I'm sure will look a lot like Sweden's immigrant war zone.
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On May 22 2017 18:20 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 17:58 Acrofales wrote:On May 22 2017 17:51 Wegandi wrote:On May 22 2017 17:22 Simberto wrote:On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote:Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion). From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it). The big problem with nuclear is the waste storage. You have to find some place that is not gonna leak the waste for a few thousands to a few hundred thousand years, depending on what type of waste you store there. That is not easy, and so far we have no good solution. I think that that is a problem that one should figure out before producing even more waste that noone knows what to do with. I don't think it is an impossible challenge, but it definitively a major thing that needs to be resolved. I think if you want more nuclear, you should also commit to major investments in research regarding the waste disposal. You're not up with the times and technology. Water-cooled reactors that utilize rods actually have most of the fissile material in a usable form for things like MSR's and other newer advances in reactor technology. In other words, the radioactive actinides that compose the "waste" from "spent" rods (read: cracked, but materially useful in other fission reactor technologies) are really just fuel for the next gen reactors. The next gen reactors themselves also have minimal storage requirements (beyond the fact that spent material is only radioactive for a couple hundred centuries instead of millenia). So, yeah, that problem is relatively solved (the technologies are mostly there; it's up to economies of scale to kick in and also beat back the luddite (or if you prefer anti-science) hysteria surrounding nuclear). While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I didn't expect this argument from you, especially given the security issues of "easy" weaponization of the waste of next-gen reactors. ....Swiss can live in the dark ages - I just have to beat the environmental luddites in the US back by the bushels. :p
Somehow Austria is doing just fine whiteout Nuclear. Most likely it will become more expensive or otherwise not "clean" but saying "no nuclear = return to dark Ages" is as ignorant as it gets.
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On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote: From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it). The ecological developments of the Chernobyl exclusion zone are really fascinating. There are conflicting studies if biodiversity has actually decreased or not in the zone. It seems like migratory birds are struggling to adapt while big mammals like wolves, badgers or deer really flourish in the zone. Even brown bears which didn't live in the area for over a century reappeared.
It's a bit depressing but it seems like even moderately high human population density is much more damaging to the environment then fucking radioactive contamination.
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On May 22 2017 20:31 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 18:20 Wegandi wrote:On May 22 2017 17:58 Acrofales wrote:On May 22 2017 17:51 Wegandi wrote:On May 22 2017 17:22 Simberto wrote:On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote:Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion). From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it). The big problem with nuclear is the waste storage. You have to find some place that is not gonna leak the waste for a few thousands to a few hundred thousand years, depending on what type of waste you store there. That is not easy, and so far we have no good solution. I think that that is a problem that one should figure out before producing even more waste that noone knows what to do with. I don't think it is an impossible challenge, but it definitively a major thing that needs to be resolved. I think if you want more nuclear, you should also commit to major investments in research regarding the waste disposal. You're not up with the times and technology. Water-cooled reactors that utilize rods actually have most of the fissile material in a usable form for things like MSR's and other newer advances in reactor technology. In other words, the radioactive actinides that compose the "waste" from "spent" rods (read: cracked, but materially useful in other fission reactor technologies) are really just fuel for the next gen reactors. The next gen reactors themselves also have minimal storage requirements (beyond the fact that spent material is only radioactive for a couple hundred centuries instead of millenia). So, yeah, that problem is relatively solved (the technologies are mostly there; it's up to economies of scale to kick in and also beat back the luddite (or if you prefer anti-science) hysteria surrounding nuclear). While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I didn't expect this argument from you, especially given the security issues of "easy" weaponization of the waste of next-gen reactors. ....Swiss can live in the dark ages - I just have to beat the environmental luddites in the US back by the bushels. :p Somehow Austria is doing just fine whiteout Nuclear. Most likely it will become more expensive or otherwise not "clean" but saying "no nuclear = return to dark Ages" is as ignorant as it gets.
We're doing fine without it is an optimistic way to put it. We're importing a small percentage (6% is an estimate by e-control.at) , I'm actually surprised that it is so small.
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On May 22 2017 22:45 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 20:31 Velr wrote:On May 22 2017 18:20 Wegandi wrote:On May 22 2017 17:58 Acrofales wrote:On May 22 2017 17:51 Wegandi wrote:On May 22 2017 17:22 Simberto wrote:On May 22 2017 17:11 opisska wrote:Gotland I can see having issues, the islands are ironically the obvious problematic places, even though they are surrounded by a lot of water Talking about nuclear energy, there is really no need for any new and shiny technology. The water cooled reactors are incredibly safe, unless you build one next to the ocean in a seismically active area I guess - and even then, I think Fukushima would have been much less of a disaster if the contingency plan was simply "let it melt down" and the building was ready for that, instead of pouring in more and more water in a cooling effort that ended up being futile (and only produced a lot of radioactive water and actually powered the steam explosion). From purely environmental point of view, nuclear energy is much better than "renewables", because wind turbines are a huge bird killer and solar on a larger scale covers a lot of landscape, while nuclear is just one big group of buildings. Also, to be fair, radiation disasters on Chernobyl/Fukushima scales do not really harm the environment in the large picture (they harm people and some big mammals and that's it). The big problem with nuclear is the waste storage. You have to find some place that is not gonna leak the waste for a few thousands to a few hundred thousand years, depending on what type of waste you store there. That is not easy, and so far we have no good solution. I think that that is a problem that one should figure out before producing even more waste that noone knows what to do with. I don't think it is an impossible challenge, but it definitively a major thing that needs to be resolved. I think if you want more nuclear, you should also commit to major investments in research regarding the waste disposal. You're not up with the times and technology. Water-cooled reactors that utilize rods actually have most of the fissile material in a usable form for things like MSR's and other newer advances in reactor technology. In other words, the radioactive actinides that compose the "waste" from "spent" rods (read: cracked, but materially useful in other fission reactor technologies) are really just fuel for the next gen reactors. The next gen reactors themselves also have minimal storage requirements (beyond the fact that spent material is only radioactive for a couple hundred centuries instead of millenia). So, yeah, that problem is relatively solved (the technologies are mostly there; it's up to economies of scale to kick in and also beat back the luddite (or if you prefer anti-science) hysteria surrounding nuclear). While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I didn't expect this argument from you, especially given the security issues of "easy" weaponization of the waste of next-gen reactors. ....Swiss can live in the dark ages - I just have to beat the environmental luddites in the US back by the bushels. :p Somehow Austria is doing just fine whiteout Nuclear. Most likely it will become more expensive or otherwise not "clean" but saying "no nuclear = return to dark Ages" is as ignorant as it gets. We're doing fine without it is an optimistic way to put it. We're importing a small percentage (6% is an estimate by e-control.at) , I'm actually surprised that it is so small.
Countries that have temperate Alpine terrain (steep mountains with a lot of rain) are in no place to lecture the others about clean electricity, because we simply can't magically conjure up the appropriate rivers to make so much hydro power. Heck we just talked about how even Sweden doesn't have that much water anymore ...
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