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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 05 2017 05:02 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2017 04:53 a_flayer wrote:
Is it just me or does Le Pen speak a different kind of French from the others? It sounds very crude or harsh somehow. Maybe it is just her voice...
Also, Lassalle must be nicknamed 'The Nose' right? Holy crap.
Is the leftist gal also against the EU and its 'financial dictatorship'?
I'd do a lot better if it was written French. I can't follow this at all. would make less sens if it was written, this debat seriously looks like my middle school where the teacher can't have decent order because of disturbed kids i'm seriously laughing since 30 mins, that's really one of the best comedy i have ever witnessed in my life
Looks like a comedy in which some characters have this one, weird, inexplicable obsession lol
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On April 04 2017 22:49 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2017 17:57 Philoctetes wrote:
Is is first name really 'Lord'? Amazing.
This Howard guy is one of those Englishmen that still think they are in charge of an empire. But they need to get it into their thick skulls that their own blebs, which they egged on with lies and xenophobia themselves, voted for England to step out of the UK.
England is out of the UK. It has no say anymore over Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, Scotland, or pieces of rock on the other side of the globe. These English empire-dreamers should be more concerned about how they are able to pay their financial obligations to the EU. If EU-supporters were a little more sane about negotiating trade deals now that the UK isn't part of the EU, they'd have a lot more pull proving the EU is this benevolent help to their own member states.
Last time I heard, UK was still in the EU. Last time I checked, it took them a year to trigger article 50. Last time I heard, the UK still wants all these benefits of staying in the EU. So while I do hear them, or rather their politicians as more than half of the population is against leaving, I am not quite sure if what these politicians say they want actually means the UK leaving the EU.
Second point. We hve very nice trade deals inside the EU. I am not sure what the problem is. We have problems inside the EU. But surely, it's not the free trade deals we have. In fact, the UK wants out, but wants to be in the free market. So what is so wrong with EU trade deals? Even the UK loves them. And they aren't really a honest judge.
Let's see: slight the popular referendum, very much in line with removing powers from the citizenry. Intentionally conflate the UK with the EU in terms of what it means about Brexit. Speak of financial obligations and not tough negotiations where both sides seek to benefit.
Are you talking about May? Or about what you think Boris Johnson would have done? Because right now, I am not quite sure what you are talking about.
Yeah the EU sounds like a great thing to cede sovereignty to! The last thing I needed to hear about Gibraltar is that its citizens wish to remain a part of the UK. The UK then negotiates on their behalf for trade interests they hold most dear, and Gibraltar's future satisfaction or dissatisfaction is gauged.
The EU could do a much better job rebuilding its reputation by not putting unwelcome nonsense in the negotiations.
Gibraltar voted to stay in the EU. Why not let them stay in the EU and the UK? England wanted to leave. They can go. After they paid back the money they took from the EU funds, of course.
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On April 05 2017 00:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That Putin has an expansionist strategy?
This one is kind of vague considering "expansionist" can mean any number of things. Though in context I suppose you mean "that Putin plans to annex former Soviet nations into Russia." In which case - no, that isn't true. The real goal is mostly to reduce enemies near Russia's border. Those states are more trouble than they are worth and sooner or later the European Union will figure that out in its own right. There is no benefit, economic or otherwise, to having those nations under Russian rule.
On April 05 2017 00:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That baltic people are worried about it?
Yes, this much is false. The Russians aren't planning to invade and most Balts know this. They will of course pretend that the Russians are coming for as long as it brings in free money and free love but it definitely isn't based on a real threat. Besides convoluted "das not wut empirez are about" justifications I have yet to hear about why there is any reason that the Balts have any value. Crimea is far different from the others since it's a strategic port that was always a part of Russia until some idiot gave it away for no reason. And a supermajority wanted the change. By previous precedent (Kosovo) there is no reason why the Ukrainian government, which came into power as a result of the coup of a democratically elected (albeit widely unpopular) leader, should have a say as to its regions making the choice to secede.
On April 05 2017 00:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That Putin is financing parties that want the end of the EU because a weaker Europe goves him free reign to bully former soviet satellites?
No. He's supporting parties that are friendly towards Russia. Full stop. If they get loans from Russia that might be because they don't have many other sources for funds. And Russia would have been happy with Fillon OR Le Pen OR Melenchon, but at this point only one of those has a chance of winning in France. So who exactly do you think will be the favorite?
And Putin doesn't want the end of the EU, at least it isn't clear that he does. It's not necessarily beneficial to Russia for that to happen. Zhirinovsky saying some crazy shit (as he always does) isn't proof of anything. NATO, on the other hand, that probably would be better for Russia if it didn't exist, because unlike the EU it has consistently proven to be an anti-Russian alliance.
In all honesty, that is probably enough said because we've been over all this before, and if you didn't care what I said then, you don't care what I have to say now. And you said as much.
Next topic, ethnic Russians in the Baltics and their treatment there. Honestly the mustaju remarks - they're not second class citizens because they're not citizens - is just a reminder of the hilarious and farcical depths of the Baltic hatred towards Russia. I know there are three of them and they are different countries, but in this case all three of them share the same conditions so I will address them together. Latvia just happens to be the country most focused on by Westerners (probably because of their delicious sprats) so that will probably be the one most directly addressed.
First of all, let me make this clear: the means by which ethnic Russians of long-time residence in the Baltics were denied citizenship is a matter of institutionalized racism, pure and simple. It might not look that way if you take it from a view where Russia is evil and everything Russia does is evil, but any analogous situation in other countries (e.g. in the US) is called just that. The basic condition is that people who were citizens before 1940, and their descendants, get citizenship of their country, others (e.g. Russian immigrants to the Baltic nations) do not, and they have to go through various requirements - including, as mentioned, learning the language.
Let's start by talking about the citizenship requirements in Russia. They are listed quite nicely here in English. Article 13 and Article 14 are the ones you want. And lo and behold, Article 13-1-e does indeed say you must know Russian! Except if you look in Article 14, you will find that that requirement is basically waived in all cases of ex-USSR applications for citizenship. So no, it's not the same as basically forcing a literacy test upon people who have lived in that country for decades. Some can't pass because they're too old (to be able to effectively learn a new language) or never learned the language in school (which taught only Russian in their time). This NPR article highlights a lot of things about the lives of Russians in Estonia, which is pretty similar to that of Latvia or Lithuania. Damn right Russia should be upset about their own people being treated like shit abroad.
And of course we can't really talk about the Baltics or their supposed deep fear of Russia without touching upon the subject of Baltic nationalists. NYT provides a nice look into concerns of ethnic Russians and of Baltic nationalism back in 1991 who were living in the Baltics - about half of them had to leave by the end of everything. And there are one two three nice pieces from The Guardian (yo Biff, you still like The Guardian or is it untrustworthy if it doesn't confirm what you want it to?) that talk about open admiration for Nazi collaborators and marches in their honor, and how that fact tends to get buried in the march to create a nice, solid anti-Russia narrative. The first one is perhaps the most interesting, as it provides a look into revisionist history, and how the Baltic groups seek to create a shamefully dishonest nationalistic anti-Russian narrative. And for any criticism I have levied towards other reliably anti-Russian governments (e.g. Polish death camps), none compare to the Baltics in sheer magnitude of revisionism. They are in a league of their own in that regard.
So where does this all lead? Well for starters the original few comments:
On April 04 2017 19:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Talking of which, for those who don't understand why wanting the end of the EU and NATO is one of the active goals of Vlad's FP, Russian propaganda now rewrites history to say that in fact part of Lithuania belongs to them.
On April 04 2017 19:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Putin is a good guy and the EU has to go (so the good guy can has moar countries I guess).
On April 04 2017 19:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
If anything it makes it remarkably clear why Putin is supporting anti EU far right politicians all around Europe.
Represent a remarkable ignorance of the situation at hand, though with Biff I am unfortunately never able to tell if, with his more exasperated hyperbolic comments, if he is being deliberately obtuse or just provocative. That Russia and the Baltic nations don't get along is also true - though in light of the circumstances Russia has every right to be pissed off by the actions of those three. More than any threat rooted in reality, the "fear of a Russian invasion" is a testament to rabid and disgusting nationalistic sentiments. That Russian TV is popular among Baltic ethnic Russians should be no surprise in light of the circumstances either. And given that the article that started this discussion is for the most part a narrative as told by a Lithuanian speaker - there is little more to say than what I have said here in response to what was said in the article in specific.
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Estonia4504 Posts
As I said before, there are few options left considering the existence of these russians in the Baltics is illegal in the first place. The ethnic russians have 0 grounds for citizenship other than having lived here, since it's strictly illegal for an occupying force (as the Soviet Union was) to resettle population. This is not to be confused with natural immigration, Narva is a great case in point. It now has less than 5% Estonians compared to the 54% that lived there before the war, with a large portion forced away from their homes or sent to Siberia. Every resettled russian is a breach against the Fourth Geneva convention, which, co-incidentally, is also a huge conflict issue between Israel and Palestine, though legally more dubious. While it is individually tragic to put the russian population through this ordeal, the citizenship test is widely considered fair (the article LL linked briefly mentions this), except, of course, in Russia and in remote border regions where Estonian is barely spoken. According to the latest census, any change in this system would mostly affect 65+ year old people who have so far refused to integrate in the first place. If this were racism institutionalized, you would not see vastly increasing citizenship (54%!) in the period 1991-2011.
My current girlfriend is ethnically Russian, a naturalized citizen, and so are quite a few of my friends. (insert your own my best friend is black joke here) While there certainly are problems after long periods of occupation, LL overblows them and inadvertently insults a large part of the integrated population.
He also fails to mention the spectacular failure of Russian resettlement programs from the Baltic nations inviting ethnic Russians back to the motherland, because it does not support his narrative.
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I wonder, is it normal for French polititians to keep interrupting each other, or it is an effect of there being 11 of them, some of which are making digs at each other?
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On April 05 2017 06:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I wonder, is it normal for French polititians to keep interrupting each other, or it is an effect of there being 11 of them, some of which are making digs at each other?
Yup, interrupting happens fairly often.
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Le Pen is objectively terrible in these debates, I don't think she'll stay at the head of the FN very long. She's not even a good populist.
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On April 05 2017 06:30 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2017 06:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I wonder, is it normal for French polititians to keep interrupting each other, or it is an effect of there being 11 of them, some of which are making digs at each other? Yup, interrupting happens fairly often.
God I wish we had that in the US. End this fake “civil debate” by holding a joint press conference.
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On April 05 2017 06:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I wonder, is it normal for French polititians to keep interrupting each other, or it is an effect of there being 11 of them, some of which are making digs at each other?
well that's a latin country, that's the norm :>
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On April 05 2017 05:03 Philoctetes wrote:
England wanted to leave. They can go. After they paid back the money they took from the EU funds, of course.
We are the 2nd largest net contributor, you moron. By your logic you owe us somewhere in the region of £300 billion.
We eagerly await the cheque.
User was warned for this post
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On April 05 2017 06:57 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2017 05:03 Philoctetes wrote:
England wanted to leave. They can go. After they paid back the money they took from the EU funds, of course.
We are the 2nd largest net contributor, you moron. By your logic you owe us somewhere in the region of £300 billion. We eagerly await the cheque.
Third largest net contributor in absolute numbers, much closer to the middle of the table in numbers relative to gdp.
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On April 05 2017 07:03 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2017 06:57 bardtown wrote:On April 05 2017 05:03 Philoctetes wrote:
England wanted to leave. They can go. After they paid back the money they took from the EU funds, of course.
We are the 2nd largest net contributor, you moron. By your logic you owe us somewhere in the region of £300 billion. We eagerly await the cheque. Third largest net contributor in absolute numbers, much closer to the middle of the table in numbers relative to gdp.
Second largest. And yes to your second point, but that's not particularly relevant.
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Oh boy. It's been couple days and people are calling names already, war drums are beating!
EU is a bad, very bad idea. I'm glad people are seeing how it tries to bully anyone if its interests are harmed.
Let's switch back to pre-WWI setting.
Germany-Netharlands-Czech Republic-Denmark-Sweden-Austria
UK-Greece-Italy-Portugal-Turkey+France with good relations to Russia and her soviet parts.
Balkan Front / Bulgaria + Romania etc.
We can still keep good relations and trade deals.
edit: Oh, I forgot the US.
the U.S with Saudi Arabia + Israel + Northern Iraq + Australia + Philippines + South Korea 
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What are you even talking about lastpuritan? This is xm)z's level of random country combinations.
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I like how he references pre-WW1, but Israel is on there somehow.
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On April 05 2017 07:19 Makro wrote:
he forgot belgium
Abort plan, the French remembered about belgium.
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Poor little Belgium, forgotten again...
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On April 05 2017 06:31 OtherWorld wrote:
Le Pen is objectively terrible in these debates, I don't think she'll stay at the head of the FN very long. She's not even a good populist.
Has she attained her place in French politics mostly because of her lineage then, I take it?
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EPT
