EPTOn April 05 2017 01:00 mustaju wrote:
non-citizens are not second class citizens any more than illegal immigrants are citizens
non-citizens are not second class citizens any more than illegal immigrants are citizens
Why?
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 751
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TMG26
Portugal2017 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
They have no legal status of citizenship of the country in question. They are quite literally "alien" passport holders which comes with it's drawbacks and positive sides, but they cannot be second class citizens if they never were citizens in the first place. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On April 05 2017 00:57 Biff The Understudy wrote: we seem to live in different realities I've seen the reality you seem to live in. "Person agrees with me" -> they must be sincere. "Person disagrees with me" -> oh they are victims of propaganda, they don't understand, oh the humanity! I'll take your response in its entirety as a "yes I was trolling, but I also want to invite being mocked for being unable to own up to it directly" statement. And I'll get back to this later today because I have some business to take care of for the next few hours. On April 05 2017 01:00 mustaju wrote: Using a page from your own book - what you just posted was without factual basis, non-citizens are not second class citizens any more than illegal immigrants are citizens, and while this has problems, everything else would be worse. Ok, I'll give some very specific justification for how ethnic Russians - both those who have citizenship and those who don't - are treated as second class. As part of a later response because as above, I'm a wee bit busy right now. Denying long-time residents the right to citizenship is very much treating them as "second class" for that matter, especially under the conditions it happened under. On April 05 2017 01:00 mustaju wrote: Baltic population decrease has several reasons, but this is misdirection on your behalf. Yes, it was more of a subtle mockery of three countries that have a rather catastrophic demographic crisis even by ex-Soviet standards. On April 05 2017 01:00 mustaju wrote: You remain a deplorable poster. If I were looking for people to outright dismiss because they disagree with me, perhaps I would try to categorize people this way. However, as it is, I am well aware that it would be a truly momentous occasion if I were to ever meet a Balt who was anything but illogically rabid with regards to Russia - so in this case I simply see it as the default. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On April 05 2017 01:28 LegalLord wrote: Ok, I'll give some very specific justification for how ethnic Russians - both those who have citizenship and those who don't - are treated as second class. As part of a later response because as above, I'm a wee bit busy right now. Denying long-time residents the right to citizenship is very much treating them as "second class" for that matter, especially under the conditions it happened under. Noone is denied citizenship who applies for it and meets the conditions. Speaking the language is a controversial condition, but Russia also demands speaking of the state language as a condition of acquiring citizenship. The argument is partly lie, partly hypocrisy. On April 05 2017 01:28 LegalLord wrote: Yes, it was more of a subtle mockery of three countries that have a rather catastrophic demographic crisis even by ex-Soviet standards. Subtle? No. Unnecessary uninformed attack on the basis of nationality would describe it more adequately. On April 05 2017 01:28 LegalLord wrote: If I were looking for people to outright dismiss because they disagree with me, perhaps I would try to categorize people this way. However, as it is, I am well aware that it would be a truly momentous occasion if I were to ever meet a Balt who was anything but illogically rabid with regards to Russia - so in this case I simply see it as the default. The form of disagreement, rather than the disagreement itself is what makes you a deplorable poster. How many polls are there already calling you out? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 04 2017 21:17 mustaju wrote: It's an illegal immigration argument. If an occupying force resettles a third of your population and replaces it without consent from a legitimate government institution, one could a) kick them out b) give them citizenship (quite a few were military personel) and hope for the best or c) give them a path to citizenship. Estonia chose c), in what is widely considered the best of bad options. about a third are still without citizenship, but those are mostly the older generation. In case anyone was interested. I love how I pointed out something totally outrageous, but because it is legalord, we all just shrug our shoulders as we are just used to it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 05 2017 01:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I love how I pointed out something totally outrageous, but because it is legalord, we all just shrug our shoulders as we are just used to it. Argument by attrition. The Big Lie is a powerful propaganda tool. It shifts the arguments from being merit base to a test of endurance. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
http://www.cnews.fr/direct http://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/live-video/ The position of the different candidates: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8bXvyiW0AE4DcB.jpg:large) Unlike the previous debate, all candidates are there. This may be the only debate with all candidates, since there are organization problems for the last one (many “big” candidates consider that it's scheduled too late in the campaign). It will last 3+ hours. - 1 minute for the introduction - 90 seconds per answer - 1 minute for the conclusion (“How to bring together the French people”) Three big themes: - How to create jobs? - How to protect the French people? - How to implement your social model? | ||
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Sent.
Poland9250 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 05 2017 02:51 Sent. wrote: That's like 6-7 minutes per candidate if I got it right, it's going to be a slogan circus. Good for Le Pen I guess ~15 minutes per candidate. Le Pen isn't particularly good in debates. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
On April 05 2017 02:44 TheDwf wrote: One hour from now on (20:40), the first debate with all the candidates will begin. Two links if you want to watch it: http://www.cnews.fr/direct http://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/live-video/ The position of the different candidates: + Show Spoiler + Unlike the previous debate, all candidates are there. This may be the only debate with all candidates, since there are organization problems for the last one (many “big” candidates consider that it's scheduled too late in the campaign). It will last 3+ hours. - 1 minute for the introduction - 90 seconds per answer - 1 minute for the conclusion (“How to bring together the French people”) Three big themes: - How to create jobs? - How to protect the French people? - How to implement your social model? 15 minutes by head to speak about a whole number of extremely important subject that would need an entire debat for each of these serious issue gonna be an other rap contender, but seeing how melenchon stood out with his trash talk and got numerous support for it, looks like you don't need much | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 05 2017 03:27 Makro wrote: 15 minutes by head to speak about a whole number of extremely important subject that would need an entire debat for each of these serious issue gonna be an other rap contender, but seeing how melenchon stood out with his trash talk and got numerous support for it, looks like you don't need much The pathetic thing is, candidates at the primary of the two dying parties got more debate/media time than actual candidates who have real differences. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On April 05 2017 00:41 Biff The Understudy wrote: That's very interesting, thanks. I would put a little objection though; countries surrnounding Russia all have russian minorities that are VERY pro Putin. They are two Georgians in my workplace: one is a girl who doesn't even want to hear the word Russia because of how much she hates the country, the other one is a russian speaking guy who think that Putin liberated the country and that everything the West says is a lie to vilify him and his regime. Maybe it's the milieu I work in, but the huge majority of Poles, Ukrainians, Balts and so on I know consider Russia as a dangerous bully; my facebook is so full of it it's actually a bit tiring. There are historical reasons and centuries of oppression, but also a reality, which is that Putin's regime is extremely aggressive towards its neighbours that show any will to get closer to the West. Talks about imminent invasions of baltic states are exaggerated and hysterical, it's never going to happen with the EU and the alliances that protect those countries. My point is that there is a reason Putin is trying actively to support parties that want the EU to go. With regards to your first paragraph, the guy I quoted said in follow-up responses that he is an ethnic Lithuanian who is too young to have experienced Soviet occupation. As a result of which, I think he may be a fairly unbiased source, rather than someone harbouring bad feelings towards Russia due to the past or a young ethnic Russian who might be inclined to look up to Putin. But it is of course impossible to know someone's exact biases and the reality of their living situation based on internet comments. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Le Pen: "France... France... liberte... France." Dat one leftist guy: Dictateur le financier... Dictateur le financier... Fillion: Securite, Islam, Protege, Economique, France Dat other leftist gal: can't remember Melenchon: Natür, Salär, Ecologique dat one old guy: something something Mitterand, Chirac, parties Hamon: whatever Melenchon said | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
Also, Lassalle must be nicknamed 'The Nose' right? Holy crap. Is the leftist gal also against the EU and its 'financial dictatorship'? I'd do a lot better if it was written French. I can't follow this at all. | ||
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Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
On April 04 2017 20:35 bardtown wrote: Lord is his title. And the rest of your post is equally ignorant. I actually have no idea what you're talking about, and clearly neither do you. No one has the title 'Lord'. Oh, and you do know what I am talking about. That's exactly your problem. And the ones on charge of the UK do too. England (and Wales is they are really sure they really want to become part of England) can leave the UK. The UK itself can remain inside the EU. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 05 2017 03:57 Big J wrote: Fuck that, I might just watch it in French, I can basically understand what they want: Le Pen: "France... France... liberte... France." Dat one leftist guy: Dictateur le financier... Dictateur le financier... Fillion: Securite, Islam, Protege, Economique, France Dat other leftist gal: can't remember Melenchon: Natür, Salär, Ecologique dat one old guy: something something Mitterand, Chirac, parties Hamon: whatever Melenchon said Hahaha On April 05 2017 04:53 a_flayer wrote: Is it just me or does Le Pen speak a different kind of French from the others? It sounds very crude or harsh somehow. Maybe it is just her voice... Also, Lassalle must be nicknamed 'The Nose' right? Holy crap. Is the leftist gal also against the EU and its 'financial dictatorship'? I'd do a lot better if it was written French. I can't follow this at all. Which one? Yeah, you have this impression because of Le Pen's voice and the way she speaks (her tone). | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
On April 05 2017 04:53 a_flayer wrote: Is it just me or does Le Pen speak a different kind of French from the others? It sounds very crude or harsh somehow. Maybe it is just her voice... Also, Lassalle must be nicknamed 'The Nose' right? Holy crap. Is the leftist gal also against the EU and its 'financial dictatorship'? I'd do a lot better if it was written French. I can't follow this at all. would make less sens if it was written, this debat seriously looks like my middle school where the teacher can't have decent order because of disturbed kids i'm seriously laughing since 30 mins, that's really one of the best comedy i have ever witnessed in my life can't believe one of these 11 gonna be president | ||
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