EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 709
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 14 2017 03:39 LightSpectra wrote: So just clear this up for me: can one have legitimate criticisms of big banks colluding with corporations and politicians for the benefit of the wealthy, and it's just antisemitic when your ramblings are "incoherent" and against a nebulous "the system"? Or is all criticism of particular big banks antisemitic? You can point out that banks and government produces inequality from which the wealthy stand to gain, but there is no collusion, the whole tone is completely off. There is no cabal of shadowy bankers that controls the world while politics is powerless or something, and that is usually what is implied by these kind of broad sweeping criticisms, usually combined with some revolutionary lingo and the goal to stick it to 'the elites'. And that actually is an implicitly anti-semitic idea, at least in the sense that some rich minority group of people is apparently smart and tricky enough to screw over all the honest and hardworking people. It's also ironically what weakens the left because we've seen over and over again now that people will not flock to them but instead opt for the right. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On March 14 2017 05:08 Nyxisto wrote: You can point out that banks and government produces inequality from which the wealthy stand to gain, but there is no collusion, the whole tone is completely off. There is no cabal of shadowy bankers that controls the world while politics is powerless or something, and that is usually what is implied by these kind of broad sweeping criticisms, usually combined with some revolutionary lingo and the goal to stick it to 'the elites'. And that actually is an implicitly anti-semitic idea, at least in the sense that some rich minority group of people is apparently smart and tricky enough to screw over all the honest and hardworking people. That's just silly now. There is nothing anti-semitic about any idea that doesn't deal with the Jews at all. Saying otherwise is just projecting your perception onto other people. If someone is guilty of stereotyping Jews it's actually you here. However this rhetoric could be considered "wrong as in how racism is wrong" (pardon my lack of an English name for that) if it was implied that this minority group is ethnic or hereditary in general. But claiming that a small group of people who are smart, cunning and skilled enough to become rich is exploiting others who are honest and hardworking doesn't really seem to be that far fetched in a competition-based society, does it? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 14 2017 05:08 Nyxisto wrote: You can point out that banks and government produces inequality from which the wealthy stand to gain, but there is no collusion, the whole tone is completely off. There is no cabal of shadowy bankers that controls the world while politics is powerless or something, and that is usually what is implied by these kind of broad sweeping criticisms, usually combined with some revolutionary lingo and the goal to stick it to 'the elites'. And that actually is an implicitly anti-semitic idea, at least in the sense that some rich minority group of people is apparently smart and tricky enough to screw over all the honest and hardworking people. It's also ironically what weakens the left because we've seen over and over again now that people will not flock to them but instead opt for the right. And exactly what kind of left is claiming that “a cabal of shadowy bankers [is controlling] the world while politics is powerless”? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
It's not like you seriously need to profess "I hate jews" to actually hate Jewish people. The anti-semitism is in the ideas not the label you put on it. And yeah in a world where hillary clinton can't even keep her risotto recipes secret I have trouble believing in the cunning and smart people playing everybody else. On March 14 2017 05:22 TheDwf wrote: And exactly what kind of left is claiming that “a cabal of shadowy bankers [is controlling] the world while politics is powerless”? Starting with occupy after the financial crisis it's pretty much all we've politically got out of the left. There is no genuine alternative that is being presented, no coherent way how to deal with the new political landscape or how to influence the existing political system. That's why they're doing horribly in pretty much every country. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On March 14 2017 05:29 Nyxisto wrote: Of course you can be antisemitic in all but name if you (un)consciously adopt all the stereotypes and ideas that are related to antisemitism, blaming the Jews usually is the result of it, it's not where it starts. It's not like you seriously need to profess "I hate jews" to actually hate Jewish people. The anti-semitism is in the ideas not the label you put on it. And yeah in a world where hillary clinton can't even keep her risotto recipes secret I have trouble believing in the cunning and smart people playing everybody else. But you are the only one here who even mentions the Jews in this respect. Just because in the history there was a time when Jews were stereotyped as "the filthy bankers", the entire financial industry is now protected from any suspicion of having a selfish agenda? Imagine a person that has never heard about the supposed connection between the finance industry and the Jews, would such a person's views of the finance industry being morally corrupt be still anti-semitic? As I already explained, the "wrong" part of the thought is to equal "finance industry" to an innocent group of people. But is there anyone but you trying to make such connection? The people who make fortunes in finance are exactly that - people who have chosen to go into finance and who made fortunes there. That is not a "minority worth protection", it's not a group of people that you are born into, it's a matter of personal choice. Making the observation that such a personal choice can plausibly be motivated by personal gains and that the opportunity for said personal gains is disproportionate and at the expense of others should not be considered despicable just because it used to to be wrongly associated with an ethnicity. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
You really cannot pull the two issues apart. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 14 2017 05:29 Nyxisto wrote: Of course you can be antisemitic in all but name if you (un)consciously adopt all the stereotypes and ideas that are related to antisemitism, blaming the Jews usually is the result of it, it's not where it starts. It's not like you seriously need to profess "I hate jews" to actually hate Jewish people. The anti-semitism is in the ideas not the label you put on it. And yeah in a world where hillary clinton can't even keep her risotto recipes secret I have trouble believing in the cunning and smart people playing everybody else. Starting with occupy after the financial crisis it's pretty much all we've politically got out of the left. There is no genuine alternative that is being presented, no coherent way how to deal with the new political landscape or how to influence the existing political system. That's why they're doing horribly in pretty much every country. Ah OK... So according to you, since Occupy Wall Street (?) “the left” is stuck in antisemitic conspirationnist. You centrists really live in your own world lol On March 14 2017 05:47 Nyxisto wrote: Don't kid yourself, Soros has become the target of illiberal smear attacks for a reason and I've heard the Macron Rothschild accusations from the French left countless of times now. The old stereotypes are still alive and well. Jews running the media too with stuff like this. You really cannot pull the two issues apart. Rofl, the UMP/LR is the party which used a cartoon with actual antisemitic tones against Macron, but “the left” is somehow responsible for antisemitic attacks simply because they sometimes quote the bank for which Macron worked. You're so massively deluded. | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
I honestly do see this problem a lot - creating "sensitivities" at the wrong places. It's like how some people tell me you aren't supposed to notice that someone has a dark skin. Of course they do and of course you see it, the point is that you should mindfully acknowledge the fact that you see it and think about whether it may cause you a subconscious bias and then act consciously according to your rightful belief that hereditary outward appearance doesn't define a person's worth. Btw. the Trump tweet is really disgusting, I wouldn't even think he can surprise me at this point, yet he does it again. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
And in regard to "shadowy cabals", I think that "follow the money" is a very good approach to find out about influence. Corporations don't donate millions to politicians or band together to form lobbying blocks purely out of the goodness of their hearts. It is an investment for them. Just as countries do not invade other countries purely out of the goodness of their hearts. I do not understand why there is such a massive focus on an individual such as Soros. It is the whole lot of them (entities that buy political influence). I dislike Elon Musks involvement in this kind of lobbying as well, even though his goals may align more with mine than some of the other people with his kind of wealth. Money has too much influence in politics and society in my opinion. It should not be used in that way, it should be used to circulate in the economy in a healthy manner. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 14 2017 05:58 a_flayer wrote: If you want to go by the stereotypes, I'd also call a devout anti-Israeli muslim who happened to be banker a "greedy jew" in this context of hoarding money. It would have nothing to do with religion or ethnicity. It would be about the stereotype, and that alone. But this is really weird to say, as going by such stereotypes is usually reserved for off-color comedy or somesuch, and it comes across as very odd that you're bringing up jews at all. Maybe it is your German guilt speaking up? Jews being supposedly “greedy” does come from antisemitic stereotypes. It doesn't matter if the guy you refer to is white or whatever, if you use “jew” to portray cupidity, it's antisemitic. Just like it's racist if you call a white guy a “lazy n*****” I do not understand why there is such a massive focus on an individual such as Soros. Because far-right networks spread those conspirationnist theories about him for years. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 14 2017 05:58 a_flayer wrote: If you want to go by the stereotypes, I'd also call a devout anti-Israeli muslim who happened to be banker a "greedy jew" in this context of hoarding money. It would have nothing to do with religion or ethnicity. It would be about the stereotype, and that alone. But this is really weird to say, as going by such stereotypes is usually reserved for off-color comedy or somesuch, and it comes across as very odd that you're bringing up jews at all. Maybe it is your German guilt speaking up? You're doing a great job of refuting my claim by parroting the number one new right slogan that is used in these discussions to deflect form the topic. This is exactly what I'm talking about, people from all kinds of the political spectrum borrowing ideas that originated from the political right and being unaware of doing it. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 14 2017 06:03 TheDwf wrote: Jews being supposedly “greedy” does come from antisemitic stereotypes. It doesn't matter if the guy you refer to is white or whatever, if you use “jew” to portray cupidity, it's antisemitic. Just like it's racist if you call a white guy a “lazy n*****” Because far-right networks spread those conspirationnist theories about him for years. Yes. Good job leaving out the first part of that sentence in the highlight to make your case. Doesn't that first part already essentially say what you're saying? If you want to go by the stereotypes. IF. IF. IF. You see this in American comedy all the time. Jewish comedians do this. On March 14 2017 06:04 Nyxisto wrote: You're doing a great job of refuting my claim by parroting the number one new right slogan that is used in these discussions to deflect form the topic. This is exactly what I'm talking about, people from all kinds of the political spectrum borrowing ideas that originated from the political right and being unaware of doing it. I had already edited it before I read your response. I agree it was a pointless statement. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 14 2017 06:07 a_flayer wrote: Yes. Good job leaving out the first part of that sentence in the highlight to make your case. Doesn't that first part already essentially say what you're saying? If you want to go by the stereotypes. IF. IF. IF. You see this in American comedy all the time. Jewish comedians do this. Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant. You seemed to think there was no connection between this stereotype and ethnicity/religion, simply because you could use it against non-Jews. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 14 2017 06:13 TheDwf wrote: Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant. You seemed to think there was no connection between this stereotype and ethnicity/religion, simply because you could use it against non-Jews. I am saying that, for me, there is no connection between "hating the bankers" and the jewish ethnicity/religion. Just because the "stereotype of greed" exists, does not mean that everybody follows it at all times. IF you did... then you COULD use it for all bankers regardless of their ethnicity/religion. It is weird that Nyxisto felt it necessary to bring up the stereotype in the first place (as I said directly following your very selective highlight). | ||
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RolleMcKnolle
Germany1054 Posts
Just because there is a problem with a phrase being a dogwhistle it doesnt mean you can't use that phrase in any way. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10979 Posts
Result? Even low and midtier employees earn more than in any other field, way more, while doing the same stuff. So they lose any connection to actual money while being the experts on "money" at the same time. I just went thru 50 job applications. People that work(ed) at a bank want about ~10-15% more money on average (i actually went thruthem a second time because i tought my mind was just making this up... no, it didn't). Same qualifications or worse, didn't matter, same or worse reference letters.... just a diffrent view on their own worth. Btw: I don't get the antisemitism craze, i grew up and never saw jews being treated diffrently than other minorities, some stereotypes to poke at them but not more behind it. People are, for understandable reasons, just way more sensitive on this topic. | ||
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