EPTi mean, there has to be a(or some) rich dude backing multiple players here.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 687
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xM(Z
Romania5275 Posts
i mean, there has to be a(or some) rich dude backing multiple players here. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 01 2017 23:41 xM(Z wrote: can't he just be used for poll rigging shenanigans now?; where would his voters go if he stops running?. i mean, there has to be a(or some) rich dude backing multiple players here. Well, to his successor? If Fillon withdraws, obviously the UMP/LR would replace him with someone else. They would not completely withdraw from the election. But Fillon was able to stay so far because there is no consensus about who could replace him. Sarkozy apparently veto'ed the Juppé option (he was the runner-up at the primary, so it would make the most sense). Macron is the other candidate of the oligarchy, he has several billionnaires openly campaigning for him. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On March 01 2017 21:05 SoSexy wrote: Let's hope this helps Lepen. Y'all are quite on edge if this obvious bait triggered the response it did. I think Fillon should stay. Unlikely to win, but switching candidates won't change that and will probably breed even more resentment. And he is still #2 favorite. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1128 Posts
On March 02 2017 02:26 LegalLord wrote: Y'all are quite on edge if this obvious bait triggered the response it did. Yes, it is quite an obvious bait. Hence I believe it constitutes trolling and should be moderated accordingly. But who's on edge? If this message board goes to shit I'll simply stop posting here, no skin off my back. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 02 2017 02:26 LegalLord wrote: Y'all are quite on edge if this obvious bait triggered the response it did. I think Fillon should stay. Unlikely to win, but switching candidates won't change that and will probably breed even more resentment. And he is still #2 favorite. No, he should f***ing go away, like he promised himself in January. He is blocking the whole goddamn campaign and taking the entire country hostage! 53 days from the first round, we still cannot talk about ideas and programs because his case blocks the media space. On top of that, him staying is extremely dangerous because if he reaches the second round vs Le Pen, pretty much no one at the left will come to vote for him—thus there could be an accident. And even if he was elected, he would not be able to govern with the two thirds of the country thinking he's a corrupt crook, especially with how brutal his program is. On top of being a greedy bastard, the guy is apparently delusional enough to think that the French people would stand him for 5 years? After all this mess?? + Show Spoiler + And he would have the presidential immunity for 5 years lol... The good news is that some people are now abandoning the ship. Bruno Le Maire (fifth at the primary) resigned from Fillon's staff, reminding him his promised words about withdrawing if he was indicted. The UDI (center-right party, traditional ally of the UMP/LR, 68/577 conscriptions) is suspending their participation to Fillon's campaign until the next week (waiting for a more definite decision). Hopefully enough people defect so that he's forced to withdraw. If his political family has any honor and lucidity left, they should do their best to unplug him as soon as possible. + Show Spoiler [Poll of the day] + Some poll about the ongoing judicial cases: Regarding Fillon and Le Pen's relations with justice, would you say that: Justice is going after them fiercely [~harassing them] because of their candidature: 26% Justice should simply do its work, politicians are ordinary citizens: 73% French population: 26/73 Left sympathizers: 93/7 Right sympathizers: 45/54 FN sympathizers: 56/43 | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5275 Posts
On March 02 2017 00:00 TheDwf wrote: i was thinking that the votes he gets are more about his persona(yes, even after hearing about his doings) and less about his party but ok.Well, to his successor? If Fillon withdraws, obviously the UMP/LR would replace him with someone else. They would not completely withdraw from the election. But Fillon was able to stay so far because there is no consensus about who could replace him. Sarkozy apparently veto'ed the Juppé option (he was the runner-up at the primary, so it would make the most sense). Macron is the other candidate of the oligarchy, he has several billionnaires openly campaigning for him. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7804 Posts
On March 02 2017 03:18 LegalLord wrote: Here's a question: how does this crookedness compare to the general crookedness of past French leaders? Isn't it extremely common for French presidents to have an, erm, "history" in the past few years? Strangely enough and for all his flaws, Hollande is holding quite well in that regard. But you are right, French presidents and candidates have been successful in the past despite really big scandals. Chirac and Sarkozy were completely corrupt and Mitterand was basically a walking scandal. Then again, it might be that times are changing and French people are getting less mediteraneans and more nordic about it. Also you have to consider that Fillon built ALL his image on honesty, probity and integrity (in contrast with Sarkozy), which was clearly not the case for, say Chirac, and is left with very little to show for himself. I would say that nobody is favourite at that stage, and Le Pen is the biggest underdog, because most people absolutely and rightfully loath her. It will be a first round battle between a right wing candidate that should win easily going on with a huge handicap, a centrist independant with very good polling but no party (which is a huge handicap) and a left wing candidate that has a party behind and no scandal but is undermined by the huge impopularity of the socialist government. Le Pen will probably be in the second round and unless of a gigantic upset, will get crushed by any of those. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7804 Posts
On March 02 2017 00:00 TheDwf wrote: Well, to his successor? If Fillon withdraws, obviously the UMP/LR would replace him with someone else. They would not completely withdraw from the election. But Fillon was able to stay so far because there is no consensus about who could replace him. Sarkozy apparently veto'ed the Juppé option (he was the runner-up at the primary, so it would make the most sense). Macron is the other candidate of the oligarchy, he has several billionnaires openly campaigning for him. Who? And being endorsed by very very rich people doesn't make you "the candidate of the oligarchy" (what oligarchy by the way? Do you realize how absurdly hyperbolic that sounds in the French coordinates?) I don't like Macron but makinbg him some billionaire oligarch puppet seems really, really, really over the top, and that's only to put it politely. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1128 Posts
I wonder if there's anything to that. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 02 2017 03:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: Who? And being endorsed by very very rich people doesn't make you "the candidate of the oligarchy" (what oligarchy by the way? Do you realize how absurdly hyperbolic that sounds in the French coordinates?) I don't like Macron but makinbg him some billionaire oligarch puppet seems really, really, really over the top, and that's only to put it politely. Henry Hermand (now deceased), Pierre Bergé (edit: ok, “only” multimillionaire), probably Xavier Niel, Claude Bébéar (not billionnaire but multimillionaire), ... The capitalist oligarchy, of course, what else? There's nothing hyperbolic... Do you seriously think that a guy who was completely unknown (for the wide public) 2 years ago can jump from nobody to potential president, with dozens of front pages in the medias, without some people pushing him in the back? It's not even a matter of being a “puppet,” a quick glimpse at his life trajectory is all you need to realize that he's an organic representative of the ruling class. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 02 2017 04:00 LightSpectra wrote: Odd how there's such a strong correlation between the support of ultra-rich people and those neoliberal proselytizers that think cutting the taxes of the ultra-rich will somehow benefit everybody else. I wonder if there's anything to that. It's pitchfork & torches time. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 02 2017 04:30 TheDwf wrote: There's nothing hyperbolic... Do you seriously think that a guy who was completely unknown (for the wide public) 2 years ago can jump from nobody to potential president, with dozens of front pages in the medias, without some people pushing him in the back? It's not even a matter of being a “puppet,” a quick glimpse at his life trajectory is all you need to realize that he's an organic representative of the ruling class. 'organic representative of the ruling class' sounds like you've dug up some aristocrat from the 17th century. This guy is a 39 year old banker who doesn't exactly fall into the old money category. This I think also explains his popularity to a degree because people see him as a way out of the trench war between the reactionary right and the socialist left which hasn't really any solutions to offer either. I don't think we need any theories about the media cabal and the elites, he is simply representing a form of non-partisan politics that has been largely absent in France, which especially younger voters seem to appreciate, who are less concerned with ideological issues than with offering actual solutions. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
but then again when you take a look at different stateman all over the world, looks like it became quite the trend | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 02 2017 04:40 Makro wrote: i don't think france experienced a period where the whole left and right (kinda the same nowadays) was that empty of a strong political and credible stateman that would be able to fit the role of a president but then again when you take a look at different stateman all over the world, looks like it became quite the trend So either the whole world has gone stupid and there are no clever people left, or for some reason there is a strong dynamic of interest going on to have weak politics/politicians. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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Makro
France16890 Posts
On March 02 2017 04:43 Big J wrote: So either the whole world has gone stupid and there are no clever people left, or for some reason there is a strong dynamic of interest going on to have weak politics/politicians. i didn't want to be that manichean, but i think it's fair to say that politics suffered from quite a shift to the point it looks like they are your usual entertainment program presenter and of course the first victim of that is the State itself | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 02 2017 04:39 Nyxisto wrote: 'organic representative of the ruling class' sounds like you've dug up some aristocrat from the 17th century. This guy is a 39 year old banker who doesn't exactly fall into the old money category. ?? We're precisely not in the 17th century anymore, so the aristocracy is no longer the ruling class? I don't even know what to answer, the guy has the archetypal life trajectory of the French elites and no one debates that. This I think also explains his popularity to a degree because people see him as a way out of the trench war between the reactionary right and the socialist left which hasn't really any solutions to offer either. I don't think we need any theories about the media cabal and the elites, he is simply representing a form of non-partisan politics that has been largely absent in France, which especially younger voters seem to appreciate, who are less concerned with ideological issues than with offering actual solutions. If you knew the French political life, you would know that what Macron is doing is, quite on contrary, an extremely old fantasy of our political life. Bayrou in 2007 was the same movement; and before him, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing (1974) or Lecanuet tried (1965) to unite the various forces around the center... talk about renewal. Look at Lecanuet's posters lol, there's even the name of Macron's movement in it. En marche! Un homme neuf [a new man]! So original. Macron can only pull it off because both the PS and the UMP/LR collapsing as of now. As for the rest, this so called “no ideology, just pragmatism” is just another disguised ideology called TINA. Non-partisanship is exactly what we got for years if you put aside the empty, fake disputes between the PS and the UMP/LR, which applied the same neoliberal policies in the last two mandates. Macron is the monstruous offspring of that, hence why his ranks are filled with people from both sides (PS + center-right + some UMP/LR). He's not a solution, just the continuation of the nightmare. He'll fail like Blair or Hollande. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 02 2017 04:49 Makro wrote: i didn't want to be that manichean, but i think it's fair to say that politics suffered from quite a shift to the point it looks like they are your usual entertainment program presenter and of course the first victim of that is the State itself If you want good politics people have to talk about what matters. Immigration makes for like 1% of the budget, but most of the talk these days. In such a situation most people are going to vote on the matter of immigration then. Often politicians that are the loudest about it, thereby proving, that they are too stupid to even understand what actually matters, or who are trying to distract from them being absolutely unsuited for the job. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Also, which 'neoliberal' policies has France ever enacted? | ||
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