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On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD).
You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no?
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Thank you.
While I acknowledge the study, I find it lacking in one regard, which I also think is disregarded in discussions on either side.
Mixing migration with fleeing war, which is not the same.
The people allowed to stay do so because most of them qualify as refugees, not migrants. Nobody in politics is advocating an indefinite open door policy for everyone either. Equating Islam/Muslims as non compatible with "our/christian values" is also rather hypocritical if we don't want to adhere to those values (i.e. human rights) by drowning out the legitimite refugees.
As I pointed out earlier, solutions have to be found for the roots of the problem. We shouldn't punish those suffering even more. And while we can only learn by making mistakes in this largely unprecedented events, the core component of solving can only be found in adhering to one's own values, especially when violated (from, again, every which side).
Bardtowns point that people want to have their concerns noted and respected is essential to every discussion.
Still, if those views are simply inhuman and based on falsities or fallacys, what can you do but to dispute the basis for their reasoning? When confronted with that, people disagree with the facts. Tell me, how would you approach such a situation?
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On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. Show nested quote +The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243
This stuff is pretty bad, there's no place for any kind of parallel or private law, the monopoly of force rests with the state for a reason. That said these people running around in their vests were probably perceived more as clowns than anything else, I don't think there are a lot of sharia policemen on the streets.
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Germany3128 Posts
On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. Show nested quote +The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243
Here is the thing: What these guys were doing is not really different from what a lot of Jehovas Witnesses or really religious christians are doing. Going to people and telling them how to behave and stuff. No law against that.
The point of contention was if a randomn person would/could mistake these guys for policemen because of their vests. Imitating police is obviously not allowed. This is the thing the judge ruled on. The answer to that is a clear no. Therefore the judge ruled that they are not breaking any laws.
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On February 20 2017 23:07 Artisreal wrote:Thank you. While I acknowledge the study, I find it lacking in one regard, which I also think is disregarded in discussions on either side. Mixing migration with fleeing war, which is not the same. The people allowed to stay do so because most of them qualify as refugees, not migrants. Nobody in politics is advocating an indefinite open door policy for everyone either. Equating Islam/Muslims as non compatible with "our/christian values" is also rather hypocritical if we don't want to adhere to those values (i.e. human rights) by drowning out the legitimite refugees. As I pointed out earlier, solutions have to be found for the roots of the problem. We shouldn't punish those suffering even more. And while we can only learn by making mistakes in this largely unprecedented events, the core component of solving can only be found in adhering to one's own values, especially when violated (from, again, every which side). Bardtowns point that people want to have their concerns noted and respected is essential to every discussion. Still, if those views are simply inhuman and based on falsities or fallacys, what can you do but to dispute the basis for their reasoning? When confronted with that, people disagree with the facts. Tell me, how would you approach such a situation?
I don't know. Some people insist on being unconvinced about climate change. Others believe that fairy tales and things like ghosts are real. It's stupid. Nothing that can be done about it near as I can tell. I'm certainly not equipped to convince people on the validity of any of my views, and neither is anyone else. People are stubborn and stick with their beliefs. That's basically why there's the whole voting thing on things of actual consequence, is it not?
Also, I tend to agree with your assessment that accepting refugees of war should be done, but then we get into the argument of why there is war in the place that they are from to begin with and there's a whole new set of fallacies and false information to deal with. Good luck unravelling it all, and even if you do, the limited actions that can be taken by voters make it all rather moot.
On February 20 2017 23:24 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243 Here is the thing: What these guys were doing is not really different from what a lot of Jehovas Witnesses or really religious christians are doing. Going to people and telling them how to behave and stuff. No law against that. The point of contention was if a randomn person would/could mistake these guys for policemen because of their vests. Imitating police is obviously not allowed. This is the thing the judge ruled on. The answer to that is a clear no. Therefore the judge ruled that they are not breaking any laws.
When would it become intimidation? Cause that's more or less how I see this kind of thing: intimidation in order to stop certain groups of people from integrating with European society/culture.
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On February 20 2017 23:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD). You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no?
No that minority government survived only 1.5 years (collapsed in 2012). We've had a PvdA / VVD government since 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Rutte_cabinet
No we haven't had a left winged majority that I can remember but neither did we have a right winged one in the recent past (except that one failure).
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On February 20 2017 23:46 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 23:07 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD). You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no? No that minority government survived only 1.5 years (collapsed in 2012). We've had a PvdA / VVD government since 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Rutte_cabinetNo we haven't had a left winged majority that I can remember but neither did we have a right winged one in the recent past (except that one failure).
Thanks, I guess I was wrong on the majority thing, the three parties never really had a majority. The main point I wanted to make though was that I'm pretty fed up with the extreme right calling each and everyone who isn't marching with Wilders/Le Pen/Strache/Trump a leftist, as if right-winged conservatives were suddenly part of some socialist plot.
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On February 21 2017 00:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 23:46 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 23:07 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD). You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no? No that minority government survived only 1.5 years (collapsed in 2012). We've had a PvdA / VVD government since 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Rutte_cabinetNo we haven't had a left winged majority that I can remember but neither did we have a right winged one in the recent past (except that one failure). Thanks, I guess I was wrong on the majority thing, the three parties never really had a majority. The main point I wanted to make though was that I'm pretty fed up with the extreme right calling each and everyone who isn't marching with Wilders/Le Pen/Strache/Trump a leftist, as if right-winged conservatives were suddenly part of some socialist plot.
I think the moderates supporting those candidates are pretty fed up of being called extreme right, but I'm sure you don't care about that. Le Pen even seems to be left wing on most issues.
All I'm trying to say is apply your thought processes consistently.
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On February 21 2017 00:36 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2017 00:15 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 23:46 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 23:07 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD). You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no? No that minority government survived only 1.5 years (collapsed in 2012). We've had a PvdA / VVD government since 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Rutte_cabinetNo we haven't had a left winged majority that I can remember but neither did we have a right winged one in the recent past (except that one failure). Thanks, I guess I was wrong on the majority thing, the three parties never really had a majority. The main point I wanted to make though was that I'm pretty fed up with the extreme right calling each and everyone who isn't marching with Wilders/Le Pen/Strache/Trump a leftist, as if right-winged conservatives were suddenly part of some socialist plot. I think the moderates supporting those candidates are pretty fed up of being called extreme right, but I'm sure you don't care about that. Le Pen even seems to be left wing on most issues.
Le Pen isn't left-wing at all on anything lol, that's a lie from the right wing to attack her economic “program” (which is an opportunist patchwork of contradictory elements anyway).
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On February 21 2017 00:36 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2017 00:15 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 23:46 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 23:07 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD). You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no? No that minority government survived only 1.5 years (collapsed in 2012). We've had a PvdA / VVD government since 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Rutte_cabinetNo we haven't had a left winged majority that I can remember but neither did we have a right winged one in the recent past (except that one failure). Thanks, I guess I was wrong on the majority thing, the three parties never really had a majority. The main point I wanted to make though was that I'm pretty fed up with the extreme right calling each and everyone who isn't marching with Wilders/Le Pen/Strache/Trump a leftist, as if right-winged conservatives were suddenly part of some socialist plot. I think the moderates supporting those candidates are pretty fed up of being called extreme right, but I'm sure you don't care about that. Le Pen even seems to be left wing on most issues. All I'm trying to say is apply your thought processes consistently.
So what do you call someone who is right of the regular right wingers? Point me to the inconsistence and we can discuss it.
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On February 21 2017 00:40 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2017 00:36 bardtown wrote:On February 21 2017 00:15 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 23:46 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 23:07 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD). You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no? No that minority government survived only 1.5 years (collapsed in 2012). We've had a PvdA / VVD government since 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Rutte_cabinetNo we haven't had a left winged majority that I can remember but neither did we have a right winged one in the recent past (except that one failure). Thanks, I guess I was wrong on the majority thing, the three parties never really had a majority. The main point I wanted to make though was that I'm pretty fed up with the extreme right calling each and everyone who isn't marching with Wilders/Le Pen/Strache/Trump a leftist, as if right-winged conservatives were suddenly part of some socialist plot. I think the moderates supporting those candidates are pretty fed up of being called extreme right, but I'm sure you don't care about that. Le Pen even seems to be left wing on most issues. Le Pen isn't left-wing at all on anything lol, that's a lie from the right wing to attack her economic “program” (which is an opportunist patchwork of contradictory elements anyway).
Le Pen is actually pretty much communist.
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On February 21 2017 00:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2017 00:36 bardtown wrote:On February 21 2017 00:15 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 23:46 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 23:07 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD). You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no? No that minority government survived only 1.5 years (collapsed in 2012). We've had a PvdA / VVD government since 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Rutte_cabinetNo we haven't had a left winged majority that I can remember but neither did we have a right winged one in the recent past (except that one failure). Thanks, I guess I was wrong on the majority thing, the three parties never really had a majority. The main point I wanted to make though was that I'm pretty fed up with the extreme right calling each and everyone who isn't marching with Wilders/Le Pen/Strache/Trump a leftist, as if right-winged conservatives were suddenly part of some socialist plot. I think the moderates supporting those candidates are pretty fed up of being called extreme right, but I'm sure you don't care about that. Le Pen even seems to be left wing on most issues. All I'm trying to say is apply your thought processes consistently. So what do you call someone who is right of the regular right wingers? Point me to the inconsistence and we can discuss it.
As a general rule the main right wing parties in Europe are centre right, so you can call people right of them simply 'right'. Far right is, as it says, far right. Most people these days don't actually seem to know the difference between left and right, they just use them to mean 'things that I don't like'. You're guilty of doing exactly that while accusing others of doing it.
So, contrary to popular belief, nationalism is not inherently right wing, anti-immigration policies are not inherently right wing, etc.
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Germany3128 Posts
On February 20 2017 23:40 a_flayer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2017 23:07 Artisreal wrote:Thank you. While I acknowledge the study, I find it lacking in one regard, which I also think is disregarded in discussions on either side. Mixing migration with fleeing war, which is not the same. The people allowed to stay do so because most of them qualify as refugees, not migrants. Nobody in politics is advocating an indefinite open door policy for everyone either. Equating Islam/Muslims as non compatible with "our/christian values" is also rather hypocritical if we don't want to adhere to those values (i.e. human rights) by drowning out the legitimite refugees. As I pointed out earlier, solutions have to be found for the roots of the problem. We shouldn't punish those suffering even more. And while we can only learn by making mistakes in this largely unprecedented events, the core component of solving can only be found in adhering to one's own values, especially when violated (from, again, every which side). Bardtowns point that people want to have their concerns noted and respected is essential to every discussion. Still, if those views are simply inhuman and based on falsities or fallacys, what can you do but to dispute the basis for their reasoning? When confronted with that, people disagree with the facts. Tell me, how would you approach such a situation? I don't know. Some people insist on being unconvinced about climate change. Others believe that fairy tales and things like ghosts are real. It's stupid. Nothing that can be done about it near as I can tell. I'm certainly not equipped to convince people on the validity of any of my views, and neither is anyone else. People are stubborn and stick with their beliefs. That's basically why there's the whole voting thing on things of actual consequence, is it not? Also, I tend to agree with your assessment that accepting refugees of war should be done, but then we get into the argument of why there is war in the place that they are from to begin with and there's a whole new set of fallacies and false information to deal with. Good luck unravelling it all, and even if you do, the limited actions that can be taken by voters make it all rather moot. On February 20 2017 23:24 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243 Here is the thing: What these guys were doing is not really different from what a lot of Jehovas Witnesses or really religious christians are doing. Going to people and telling them how to behave and stuff. No law against that. The point of contention was if a randomn person would/could mistake these guys for policemen because of their vests. Imitating police is obviously not allowed. This is the thing the judge ruled on. The answer to that is a clear no. Therefore the judge ruled that they are not breaking any laws. When would it become intimidation? Cause that's more or less how I see this kind of thing: intimidation in order to stop certain groups of people from integrating with European society/culture.
That's a good question. These guys were sadly not dumb enough to actually try to threaten people into complying. They were mostly seen as clownish idiots.
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On February 21 2017 01:03 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 23:40 a_flayer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2017 23:07 Artisreal wrote:Thank you. While I acknowledge the study, I find it lacking in one regard, which I also think is disregarded in discussions on either side. Mixing migration with fleeing war, which is not the same. The people allowed to stay do so because most of them qualify as refugees, not migrants. Nobody in politics is advocating an indefinite open door policy for everyone either. Equating Islam/Muslims as non compatible with "our/christian values" is also rather hypocritical if we don't want to adhere to those values (i.e. human rights) by drowning out the legitimite refugees. As I pointed out earlier, solutions have to be found for the roots of the problem. We shouldn't punish those suffering even more. And while we can only learn by making mistakes in this largely unprecedented events, the core component of solving can only be found in adhering to one's own values, especially when violated (from, again, every which side). Bardtowns point that people want to have their concerns noted and respected is essential to every discussion. Still, if those views are simply inhuman and based on falsities or fallacys, what can you do but to dispute the basis for their reasoning? When confronted with that, people disagree with the facts. Tell me, how would you approach such a situation? I don't know. Some people insist on being unconvinced about climate change. Others believe that fairy tales and things like ghosts are real. It's stupid. Nothing that can be done about it near as I can tell. I'm certainly not equipped to convince people on the validity of any of my views, and neither is anyone else. People are stubborn and stick with their beliefs. That's basically why there's the whole voting thing on things of actual consequence, is it not? Also, I tend to agree with your assessment that accepting refugees of war should be done, but then we get into the argument of why there is war in the place that they are from to begin with and there's a whole new set of fallacies and false information to deal with. Good luck unravelling it all, and even if you do, the limited actions that can be taken by voters make it all rather moot. On February 20 2017 23:24 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243 Here is the thing: What these guys were doing is not really different from what a lot of Jehovas Witnesses or really religious christians are doing. Going to people and telling them how to behave and stuff. No law against that. The point of contention was if a randomn person would/could mistake these guys for policemen because of their vests. Imitating police is obviously not allowed. This is the thing the judge ruled on. The answer to that is a clear no. Therefore the judge ruled that they are not breaking any laws. When would it become intimidation? Cause that's more or less how I see this kind of thing: intimidation in order to stop certain groups of people from integrating with European society/culture. That's a good question. These guys were sadly not dumb enough to actually try to threaten people into complying. They were mostly seen as clownish idiots.
In the UK we had individuals forcing people to empty out alcoholic drinks, etc, and they were jailed for intimidation and harassment. Would need to hear first person accounts to know if the incident in Germany was comparable.
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On February 21 2017 00:53 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2017 00:42 Big J wrote:On February 21 2017 00:36 bardtown wrote:On February 21 2017 00:15 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 23:46 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 23:07 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 22:57 RvB wrote:On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD). You had a VVD (liberal-right) and a CDA (conservative-right) led government in the past years, right? Even at times when those two plus Wilders didn't have a majority, you never had a left-winged majority, even with all the smaller parties combined, no? No that minority government survived only 1.5 years (collapsed in 2012). We've had a PvdA / VVD government since 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Rutte_cabinetNo we haven't had a left winged majority that I can remember but neither did we have a right winged one in the recent past (except that one failure). Thanks, I guess I was wrong on the majority thing, the three parties never really had a majority. The main point I wanted to make though was that I'm pretty fed up with the extreme right calling each and everyone who isn't marching with Wilders/Le Pen/Strache/Trump a leftist, as if right-winged conservatives were suddenly part of some socialist plot. I think the moderates supporting those candidates are pretty fed up of being called extreme right, but I'm sure you don't care about that. Le Pen even seems to be left wing on most issues. All I'm trying to say is apply your thought processes consistently. So what do you call someone who is right of the regular right wingers? Point me to the inconsistence and we can discuss it. As a general rule the main right wing parties in Europe are centre right, so you can call people right of them simply 'right'. Far right is, as it says, far right. Most people these days don't actually seem to know the difference between left and right, they just use them to mean 'things that I don't like'. You're guilty of doing exactly that while accusing others of doing it.
Most conservative parties have moved much more to the right in the past years. If they once were center right, they surely aren't anymore. The same goes for Social Democrats, if they once were left, they are no more for the most part. People like Schröder, Blair or Hollande made sure that former left-wingers get remembered for dumping wages, reducing social nets and privatization of state enterprises. That's why I call conservatives right and those which get called populists (which noone really knows what it means) extreme right, or far-right or radical right or whatever of that kind. If you are right of someone like Fillion in France you are that, if you are right of Seehofer in Germany you are that, if you are right of Sobotka in Austria you are that.
Pretending that the center is always where the majority is just makes discussions about directions meaningless. The notion that is flowing around that conservatives are always the center-right and social-democrats always the center-left are simply apeacment towards the majority of people, who want to be lulled into thinking they are moderates.
By the way, I have no problem if you call me an extrem left-winger in a way. I do sympathize with these ideas a lot (not with state communism, but with progressive taxation and egalitairian taxation mechanisms on excessive amounts of wealth/capital/private economic power), though I understand that in a world of national states and an interconnected economy they are hardly implementable on that national political level in Europe.
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Germany3128 Posts
On February 21 2017 01:07 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2017 01:03 TheNewEra wrote:On February 20 2017 23:40 a_flayer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2017 23:07 Artisreal wrote:Thank you. While I acknowledge the study, I find it lacking in one regard, which I also think is disregarded in discussions on either side. Mixing migration with fleeing war, which is not the same. The people allowed to stay do so because most of them qualify as refugees, not migrants. Nobody in politics is advocating an indefinite open door policy for everyone either. Equating Islam/Muslims as non compatible with "our/christian values" is also rather hypocritical if we don't want to adhere to those values (i.e. human rights) by drowning out the legitimite refugees. As I pointed out earlier, solutions have to be found for the roots of the problem. We shouldn't punish those suffering even more. And while we can only learn by making mistakes in this largely unprecedented events, the core component of solving can only be found in adhering to one's own values, especially when violated (from, again, every which side). Bardtowns point that people want to have their concerns noted and respected is essential to every discussion. Still, if those views are simply inhuman and based on falsities or fallacys, what can you do but to dispute the basis for their reasoning? When confronted with that, people disagree with the facts. Tell me, how would you approach such a situation? I don't know. Some people insist on being unconvinced about climate change. Others believe that fairy tales and things like ghosts are real. It's stupid. Nothing that can be done about it near as I can tell. I'm certainly not equipped to convince people on the validity of any of my views, and neither is anyone else. People are stubborn and stick with their beliefs. That's basically why there's the whole voting thing on things of actual consequence, is it not? Also, I tend to agree with your assessment that accepting refugees of war should be done, but then we get into the argument of why there is war in the place that they are from to begin with and there's a whole new set of fallacies and false information to deal with. Good luck unravelling it all, and even if you do, the limited actions that can be taken by voters make it all rather moot. On February 20 2017 23:24 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243 Here is the thing: What these guys were doing is not really different from what a lot of Jehovas Witnesses or really religious christians are doing. Going to people and telling them how to behave and stuff. No law against that. The point of contention was if a randomn person would/could mistake these guys for policemen because of their vests. Imitating police is obviously not allowed. This is the thing the judge ruled on. The answer to that is a clear no. Therefore the judge ruled that they are not breaking any laws. When would it become intimidation? Cause that's more or less how I see this kind of thing: intimidation in order to stop certain groups of people from integrating with European society/culture. That's a good question. These guys were sadly not dumb enough to actually try to threaten people into complying. They were mostly seen as clownish idiots. In the UK we had individuals forcing people to empty out alcoholic drinks, etc, and they were jailed for intimidation and harassment. Would need to hear first person accounts to know if the incident in Germany was comparable.
Nah it wasn't in this case. These guys would come up to you and talk to you about how you shouldn't do sth. (whatever you're currently doing that they seem to think is wrong) if you want to go to paradise. They were more like preachers on the street. These guys aren't smart but they were smart enough to not make themselves liable to any lawsuit by threatening, harassing, abusing or intimidating people. You basically told them to Fuck off and went away.
Source: I actually had a few, say 2-3 run ins with them
Edit: I'm all for punishing people hard who actually do sth. like in the case you described in the UK but I feel like that the only big parallel in these cases is that these groups have 'police' in their name.
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On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. Show nested quote +The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243
I would only blame the judge if it he his judgement goes against the law. If his judgement is correct, i.e. the law was not violated, then here there is a problem is the lawmakers, but not with the judge.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Russia's envoy to the UN just died of a heart attack in New York.
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The day me and Nyxisto agreed. Open up your champagne bottles, gentlemen.
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EPT
