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On February 20 2017 06:10 Artisreal wrote:
Can you give me a link to the european poll that you seem to cite? I would appreciate it.
I believe he is referring to this:
https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration
'All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped'
Majorities in all but two of the ten states agreed, ranging from 71% in Poland, 65% in Austria, 53% in Germany and 51% in Italy to 47% in the United Kingdom and 41% in Spain. In no country did the percentage that disagreed surpass 32%.
I am essentially with the majority opinion of this poll as well (falling somewhere between "eh" and "lets put a stop to it"). I suppose I am very intolerant in that regard. I do see "European culture" being encroached on by immigrants whose values are simply different from us, and I'm somewhat concerned about things like this to give some specific examples:
Islamic schools where they don't properly teach scientific facts such as evolution. My worries here are not particularly limited to Islam, as this applies to any religion with backward beliefs, but I do think that the "established European Christian schools" tend to be more sensible in this regard. Importing Islamic immigrants who staunchly push their religion through schools does seem like it will reignite this as a problem in society in general & education in particular. I wouldn't want to import American evangelical Christians either if they were inclined towards starting schools where they don't teach things like evolution & history as I believe it should be taught.
There are also cases where refugees bring in child brides. It is just a disturbing situation to me and constitutes another part of the clash of culture. I don't want to separate the child from their husband, but at the same time I find the practice distasteful (even if it is not exceedingly numerous). It is somewhat concerning to me that exceptions must be made.
This last one is hearsay, but I also view this as a bit of a problem. I've heard about this too often to just let it go. "Islamic religious bullies" that try to enforce certain interpretations of their religion on others. I see this kind of behaviour - self-enforced segregation between men and women - as a threat to the European cultural values of equality.
For an example of this, I'll use a personal anecdote: last time I went to the dentist, I asked a question to the female assistant who happened to be Muslim. She barely said two words and didn't look at me. When another assistant came into the room, she expressed her surprise about the fact that we appeared to be talking. If this kind of behaviour is reinforced by a lack of integration in what I view as a European culture of equality between genders, then I am starting to see a problem in what appears to be a clash of cultures. Especially if there are groups actively going around and enforcing this kind of thinking based on some archaic beliefs.
Now, politically, these are all fairly minor concerns compared to my overall worry of economic issues unrelated to immigration (such as increasing wealth inequality and pensions), or concerns about long-term things such as climate change, but it's still there. Culture for me, at least in this regard, has very little to do with theatre or museums. It's about people and how they mix together. If they don't mix together well, and exceptions must be made in law to allow for this, I am starting to see a problem.
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On February 20 2017 05:44 opisska wrote:
(And please, spare us from the "provide help in the affected countries" fallacy, time travel is not available at the moment).
In the long term, we cannot have all people of the world live in Europe. People have to be able to build up decent lives all across the face of the Earth. Piling humans upon humans in a tiny region of the world is a horrible idea.
How to make it work? I don't know. I'm thinking things like spreading high levels of education and giving people the ability to obtain the necessary information to learn on their own terms, removing weapons from the equation (or at least not adding to the problem), easy access to technology to improve agriculture and quality of life, eliminating globalized economic oppression through currency manipulation and western multinationals... I have no clue on how to achieve these things, and I'm sure I'm missing some obvious other concerns, but I think these are the kind of things that needs to be done.
Taking in refugees is just a patch, a band-aid. Not a solution to the core of the problem.
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Various escalations in the Ukraine (Russia recognizes DNR/LNR passports now, and is pressing the Minsk issue pretty hard) and in North Korea (China blocking coal trade, Kim Jong Un's half brother killed in Malaysia with various other escalations).
It seems that it's time to press the issue on both fronts.
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what does that even mean?.
to press the issue = ...
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Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies.
The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243
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The process was about whether it is illegal to wear orange warning vests with whatever bullshit you have written on them. The judges judged that this ain't illegal.
If the ruling would have been different, bachelor parties here would have been in serious trouble.
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On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. Show nested quote +The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243
Nuh uh. That's not what happened. Nobody said "Islamic Police does not violate the law". The courts said it is completely okay to go around wearing orange vests that say "Sharia police" on them. If, however, they made any claims to actually being police officers, they'd be in trouble, because impersonating police officers is forbidden.
Also, nutcases on the street demanding I do shit happens all the time (usually they demand I give them money, but sometimes they demand I repent because the apocalypse is coming). I mostly ignore nutcases on the street, and I suggest you do the same, rather than spouting hyperbolic drivel about it on an internet forum.
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"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say.
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On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say.
Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer.
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Nope, saying stupid things that smell like volkisch destiny speak is the choice of the speaker, and this thread and forum are literally full to the brim with people who argue directly against the merits of this "islam is the enemy" sham of a perspective, so cut the crybaby "everyone ignores us and our xenophobic language!" routine.
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On February 20 2017 21:00 SoSexy wrote:Any german people here would like to express their thoughts concerning the german judge who recently said that islamic police does not violate the law? This is disgusting and a symbol of the putrefaction of western societies. Show nested quote +The group sparked outrage in the western city of Wuppertal in 2014, when they approached people in orange vests bearing the words "Sharia Police". They demanded that locals stop gambling, listening to music, and drinking alcohol.
The group's alleged organiser, Sven Lau, is a well-known Islamist preacher. He is facing separate charges of supporting a terrorist group fighting in Syria.
Wuppertal's district court ruled that the seven vigilantes could only have broken the law - which was originally aimed at street movements such as the early Nazi party - if their uniforms were "suggestively militant or intimidating", a court spokesman said.
In this case, it found that the vests were not threatening
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38056243
Not German, but I don't approve of this at all. It's a bit of a conundrum because on one hand they have the freedom to do as they please, and I shouldn't encroach on that. However, they are trying to tell people to behave in certain ways, and I don't approve of that kind of behaviour. It's a stupid circle in that way. But this is part of what I was referring to in my post at the top of this page.
In my mind, it is an extension of capitulating to the demands of certain terrorist groups that we shouldn't draw cartoons of Muhammed. I'm not sure how to express my feelings about this in words, so I will do it in a picture:
![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Mohammed_receiving_revelation_from_the_angel_Gabriel.jpg)
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Sorry, who said that Islam was the enemy? Have some consistency. Are vigilante Sharia patrols 'Islam'? Your false equivocation is at the root of the problem. There is nothing xenophobic about calling something in clear contradiction of Western liberal values putrefaction of Western society. The people who point out the problem are not the problem. The people who try to stifle the discussion drive those with concerns into the arms of extremists.
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On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer.
Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing.
I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them.
"That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik)
"Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted)
Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them.
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On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them.
I don't know why you quote me and then talk to some imaginary straw man.
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On February 20 2017 21:40 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them. I don't know why you quote me and then talk to some imaginary straw man.
Because I was talking to you and your argument about ignoring important discussions. I don't ignore it, I just don't think it is half as important as the right-wing mainstream media, who try to force neoliberal politicians into office that protect their money, tells us.
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On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say.
It's not a fringe belief anymore. The myth of decadence and need for a rebirth of society is a pillar of the current wave of populist nationalism. Hopefully it won't lead to the same mess it did the last time this perception was pervasive among Europeans.
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On February 20 2017 21:55 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. It's not a fringe belief anymore. The myth of decadence and need for a rebirth of society is a pillar of the current wave of populist nationalism. Hopefully it won't lead to the same mess it did the last time this perception was pervasive among Europeans.
This is what I'm saying. The moderates should be taking these events seriously. The people see things that make them angry or upset and then the establishment tells them that actually their feelings are inappropriate. Not only that, but they are racist and xenophobic and should be shouted down. When this is the 'moderate' consensus, what choice do they have left but to turn to those who are not moderate? You can be assured that if the mainstream discourse does not mature to include different viewpoints then there will be further polarisation with unpleasant results.
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On February 20 2017 22:12 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:55 Dan HH wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. It's not a fringe belief anymore. The myth of decadence and need for a rebirth of society is a pillar of the current wave of populist nationalism. Hopefully it won't lead to the same mess it did the last time this perception was pervasive among Europeans. This is what I'm saying. The moderates should be taking these events seriously. The people see things that make them angry or upset and then the establishment tells them that actually their feelings are inappropriate. Not only that, but they are racist and xenophobic and should be shouted down. When this is the 'moderate' consensus, what choice do they have left but to turn to those who are not moderate? You can be assured that if the mainstream discourse does not mature to include different viewpoints then there will be further polarisation with unpleasant results.
As long as you speak in vague platitudes you sound very reasonable. It's when you actually put names to the things that you are glossing over that it sounds like the populist xenophobic nonsense it actually is.
"The people see things that make them angry or upset" actually means "People see Muslims who behave differently from them and that upsets them". What more should we do than say "we have a secular humanist country which means Muslims are allowed to live here in the way they want to, as long as they don't break the law".
Alternatively it means "the Moroccan/Turkish/whatever immigrants are not properly integrated into <my> society and we are upset about that", which is Wilders' favourite talking point. Crime rate amongst Dutch of Moroccan descent in Holland is indeed higher than amongst white Dutch (I don't know how to distinguish them better: we're literally talking about 3rd generation, and they are Dutch). Almost all of this is explained by social status. That is a failure of society that the grandchildren of immigrants are systematically poorer than the average Dutch citizen, and there are many causes for that, and it needs to be addressed. But I haven't heard Wilders or any other populist propose anything that looks like a solution for this, because contrary to what they claim, grandchildren of immigrants are not themselves immigrants: they are Dutch citizens, usually with two Dutch parents, and born in Holland. Upward mobility amongst minorities is something that needs to be studied in far greater detail, but the people who are swayed by populist messages don't care about the upward mobility of minorities, they want the minorities gone (+ Show Spoiler [minder minder minder video] +).
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On February 20 2017 22:28 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 22:12 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:55 Dan HH wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. It's not a fringe belief anymore. The myth of decadence and need for a rebirth of society is a pillar of the current wave of populist nationalism. Hopefully it won't lead to the same mess it did the last time this perception was pervasive among Europeans. This is what I'm saying. The moderates should be taking these events seriously. The people see things that make them angry or upset and then the establishment tells them that actually their feelings are inappropriate. Not only that, but they are racist and xenophobic and should be shouted down. When this is the 'moderate' consensus, what choice do they have left but to turn to those who are not moderate? You can be assured that if the mainstream discourse does not mature to include different viewpoints then there will be further polarisation with unpleasant results. As long as you speak in vague platitudes you sound very reasonable. It's when you actually put names to the things that you are glossing over that it sounds like the populist xenophobic nonsense it actually is. "The people see things that make them angry or upset" actually means "People see Muslims who behave differently from them and that upsets them". What more should we do than say "we have a secular humanist country which means Muslims are allowed to live here in the way they want to, as long as they don't break the law". Alternatively it means "the Moroccan/Turkish/whatever immigrants are not properly integrated into <my> society and we are upset about that", which is Wilders' favourite talking point. Crime rate amongst Dutch of Moroccan descent in Holland is indeed higher than amongst white Dutch (I don't know how to distinguish them better: we're literally talking about 3rd generation, and they are Dutch). Almost all of this is explained by social status. That is a failure of society that the grandchildren of immigrants are systematically poorer than the average Dutch citizen, and there are many causes for that, and it needs to be addressed. But I haven't heard Wilders or any other populist propose anything that looks like a solution for this, because contrary to what they claim, grandchildren of immigrants are not themselves immigrants: they are Dutch citizens, usually with two Dutch parents, and born in Holland. Upward mobility amongst minorities is something that needs to be studied in far greater detail, but the people who are swayed by populist messages don't care about the upward mobility of minorities, they want the minorities gone ( + Show Spoiler [minder minder minder video] +).
I wouldn't disagree with most of this. Actually, I think you're reinforcing my point. These people turn to Wilders and similar forces because they are ignored by the traditional mainstream parties. Whether by increasing upward mobility of immigrant populations or reducing immigration, something has to be done. As of yet the situation has only become more and more confrontational with no improvement in circumstances, despite the mainstream parties using almost the exact same rhetoric as you. It is inevitable given this reality that people turn to more extreme answers. Words are cheap.
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On February 20 2017 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2017 21:18 bardtown wrote:On February 20 2017 21:15 farvacola wrote:
"putrefaction of western societies"
Here's a thought: if what you're saying sounds like something Anders Breivik would say, it's probably not a good thing to say. Here's a thought: if mainstream discussion about topics of serious concern were not constantly ignored and language policed, far right/extremist groups would lose the only thing they have to offer. Gotta love when being of a different opinion is called language police nowadays, when saying publishing every rape crime while the crime/rape statistics stay almost the same is ignorant and when suddenly everything that is not marching with the populists is suddenly left-winged or liberal, which also get mixed together as if it was the same thing. I've had more than enough of the extremist right propaganda for a liftime already, I go to the comment section of any newspaper and like parrots they regurgitate whatever those parties tell them. "That's what happens when you give power to the left/liberals for decades in the Netherlands." (the Netherlands have had a conservative right-wing-liberal majoirty in the past years afaik) "Social-democrats have ruined Austria" (the two right-winged parties have had a majority for 30 years now, they could have passed whatever law they would have fucking wanted) Merkel is suddenly a leftwinger, Obama a socialist and if you live in a city and tell others, that shit is not going down the drain you are a brainwashed delusional. I've had it up to here, the right-wingers are actually right, we have been to liberal in the past with idiots like them.
No we haven't. We have a coalition of labour (PvdA) and conservative liberals (VVD).
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EPT
