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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
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On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism).
Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension.
There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered.
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There is a difference between more flexible labour markets and reducing welfare, though. The Danish/Nordic principle of "flexicurity" isn't at all unreasonable. You can have redistribution and a functioning social net without having too much interaction between politics and the economy. I think it's arguably better than corporate welfare systems like in France or Germany.
Also social spending still remains on the same level in almost all European countries.
http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD2014-Social-Expenditure-Update-Nov2014-8pages.pdf
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On February 28 2015 01:35 Nyxisto wrote:There is a difference between more flexible labour markets and reducing welfare, though. The Danish/Nordic principle of "flexicurity" isn't at all unreasonable. You can have redistribution and a functioning social net without having too much interaction between politics and the economy. I think it's arguably better than corporate welfare systems like in France or Germany. Also social spending still remains on the same level in almost all European countries. http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD2014-Social-Expenditure-Update-Nov2014-8pages.pdf
Any system is better than France's.
Can you elaborate a bit more about how flexicurity works?
The whole welfare system in France is just unhealthy the way it works.
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The idea is pretty much to have all the core things paid for solely by the state, like healthcare, unemployment, pensions other insurances and such and to reduce involvement and regulation of companies in these areas. For example in Germany we have a "three pillar system" of public welfare, employer based benefits and private funds. It's slowly failing though because poor people can't really invest privately and small businesses have disadvantages because they have to pay all these fixed costs which puts a disproportionate burden on them.
For example I don't see anything wrong with part time work and mini-jobs as long as there's a social net if someone is laid off.
Heavy regulations on work-time combined with welfare based on the employers on the other hand is kind of the worst of both worlds. You can't lay someone off because there is not enough public welfare and employers can't flexibly hire people when they need them.
Another nasty side effect is the close tie between businesses and politics, which is an even bigger problem for countries with high corruption.
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On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking.
Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow...
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On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow...
Well, dictatorship never really stopped in that country...
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On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow...
Keynes is proven wrong more and more everyday. But you and Krugman keep holding onto the dream...
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On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow...
No, I don't want the gold standard back. I'd like to have Hayekian competing currencies and free-banking (ala Selgin and White). Yes, the Federal Reserve has tremendous influence and distortion of our economic activities. It's though, not the only player and the regulatory schemes and government-writs of privileges (think licensing, et. al) as well as the tax structure do extreme harm to our welfare and well-being. That's not to say that it is all a net-economic gain. Strict property rights under NP Lockean tradition would do a lot to prevent large scale industry because of nuisances and its strict regulatory effect on pollution of all kinds. Overall a huge net plus if we could get rid of the Fed, federal taxation and regulatory schemes (including mercantilist trade policies), etc.
Oh by the way you should read up on the Canadian experience of free-banking and when they finally got their Central Bank. It's interesting and enlightening for those unaware.
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On February 28 2015 11:42 hannahbelle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow... Keynes is proven wrong more and more everyday. But you and Krugman keep holding onto the dream...
Yep, that hyper inflationary wave is swallowing America.
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On February 28 2015 15:27 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 11:42 hannahbelle wrote:On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow... Keynes is proven wrong more and more everyday. But you and Krugman keep holding onto the dream... Yep, that hyper inflationary wave is swallowing America.
Give it time my friend...give it time.
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I severely doubt there will be an inflationary wave in America with Europe continuing to be so stagnant and unappetizing. And if it happened, there would be no way to predict it.
Plus places like Russia and China continue to be far to politically unstable for the rich in those countries to no be interested in America, its still the place you are probably least likely to have your property confiscated in.
Really, the failure of Keynesian is its failure to distinguish itself from just a general advocacy for welfare states and large centralized government.
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On February 28 2015 16:30 cLutZ wrote:
I severely doubt there will be an inflationary wave in America with Europe continuing to be so stagnant and unappetizing. And if it happened, there would be no way to predict it.
Plus places like Russia and China continue to be far to politically unstable for the rich in those countries to no be interested in America, its still the place you are probably least likely to have your property confiscated in.
Really, the failure of Keynesian is its failure to distinguish itself from just a general advocacy for welfare states and large centralized government.
thats like saying the real failure of comparative morphology is its failure to distinguish itself from just a general advocacy for extinct species like dinosaurs
you confuse the method with the object of study, and even further confuse analyzing with advocating.
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On February 28 2015 15:54 hannahbelle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 15:27 Sub40APM wrote:On February 28 2015 11:42 hannahbelle wrote:On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow... Keynes is proven wrong more and more everyday. But you and Krugman keep holding onto the dream... Yep, that hyper inflationary wave is swallowing America. Give it time my friend...give it time.
How is "give it time" supposed to be an argument? Either the "inflationary wave" happens with the rounds of QE or it doesn't. We've seen it didn't, and it's been explained pretty well why it didn't, including by Krugman. Saying "give it time" is meaningless.
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On March 01 2015 00:43 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 15:54 hannahbelle wrote:On February 28 2015 15:27 Sub40APM wrote:On February 28 2015 11:42 hannahbelle wrote:On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow... Keynes is proven wrong more and more everyday. But you and Krugman keep holding onto the dream... Yep, that hyper inflationary wave is swallowing America. Give it time my friend...give it time. How is "give it time" supposed to be an argument? Either the "inflationary wave" happens with the rounds of QE or it doesn't. We've seen it didn't, and it's been explained pretty well why it didn't, including by Krugman. Saying "give it time" is meaningless.
Did not happen? Not enough time given yet!
Did already happen? Told ya!
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On March 01 2015 01:01 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 00:43 kwizach wrote:On February 28 2015 15:54 hannahbelle wrote:On February 28 2015 15:27 Sub40APM wrote:On February 28 2015 11:42 hannahbelle wrote:On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow... Keynes is proven wrong more and more everyday. But you and Krugman keep holding onto the dream... Yep, that hyper inflationary wave is swallowing America. Give it time my friend...give it time. How is "give it time" supposed to be an argument? Either the "inflationary wave" happens with the rounds of QE or it doesn't. We've seen it didn't, and it's been explained pretty well why it didn't, including by Krugman. Saying "give it time" is meaningless. Did not happen? Not enough time given yet! Did already happen? Told ya!
I'm sorry. Do the effects of economic policy happen overnight where you live?
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yeah currency markets managed to react to the sanctions and oil price regarding russia in a timeframe of days
but that crippling destroying inflation created by QE shows not a single indicator twitching over 5 years after the start... it is mindbending that you actually finished a degree, let alone in any economic faculty
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On March 01 2015 03:04 hannahbelle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 01:01 Toadesstern wrote:On March 01 2015 00:43 kwizach wrote:On February 28 2015 15:54 hannahbelle wrote:On February 28 2015 15:27 Sub40APM wrote:On February 28 2015 11:42 hannahbelle wrote:On February 28 2015 05:11 Sub40APM wrote:On February 27 2015 23:23 always_winter wrote:On February 27 2015 20:01 Wegandi wrote:On February 26 2015 06:08 always_winter wrote:
I've never understood the concept of austerity as a remedy for an ailing economy; consumers are the lifeblood of any economy and to systematically limit their spending power is to systematically inhibit growth.
The Fed's decision to delay quantitative easement and to artificially prolong all-time low interest rates is the reason the United States economy continues to grow and continues to rebound from nearly a decade of cavalier spending and inadequate oversight culminating in a global financial crisis.
Austerity is an obvious solution to debt and perhaps the only true path toward solvency, but to embark on such a path prior to achieving economic stability is a recipe for economic disenfranchisement, for degradation of livelihood and for the resentment which festers and evolves into radicalism. Actually production is the lifeblood of an economy. After all, if there is no production there is no consumption. I don't want to de-rail the thread too much though, except that your analysis is laughably wrong. Keynes ghost still haunts us. /shiver Also, did you read your second paragraph and not note the disconnect? Cavalier spending? That's what negative interest rates and QE (printing / creating mass amounts of fiduciary media/currency) encourage, and was the reason for the situation we got ourselves into. I don't think you bothered to check Greenspans interest rates from 98' to 07' did you? Funny your analysis. Europe is living in a fantasy where the idea that you can have massive Social Welfare systems along with open-door policies, coupled with the idea that you can pay for this through financial manipulation (fiat credit) & have 'economic stability' is about as absurd as a politician promising 45$ minimum wage as the solution to poverty. It's like no one learned anything from Cantillon and the Mississippi Company. Don't worry, reality always wins in the end no matter how delusional you may believe something (Keynesianism). Massive social welfare systems are quite literally the target of these austerity measures, with crippling effect on the so-called European "welfare states." To suggest the EU is operating in contrast to this notion, and actually seeking to perpetuate social spending, is beyond my comprehension. There are several straw men I won't entertain, including an invitation to a theoretical debate regarding the chicken and the egg, but I can assure you low interest rates were not the cause of the housing market crash. Cavalier spending by low-income individuals was a direct result of inadequate oversight (note the connect) of the mortgage industry regarding sub-prime loans and the repayment ability of low-income borrowers. These loans were then sold to MBS's under false pretenses, triggering an economic crisis in which low-income borrowers were stuck with mortgages they could not repay and our nation's largest financial institutions were stuck with investments that could neither be sold nor recovered. ...you are talking to a guy who wants to bring back the gold standard and thinks the Federal Reserve is the thing that is keeping American entrepreneurship from generating 10% growth like it did before America had central banking. Meanwhile in Russia, opposition figures are being placed either under arrest or executed in the middle of Moscow... Keynes is proven wrong more and more everyday. But you and Krugman keep holding onto the dream... Yep, that hyper inflationary wave is swallowing America. Give it time my friend...give it time. How is "give it time" supposed to be an argument? Either the "inflationary wave" happens with the rounds of QE or it doesn't. We've seen it didn't, and it's been explained pretty well why it didn't, including by Krugman. Saying "give it time" is meaningless. Did not happen? Not enough time given yet! Did already happen? Told ya! I'm sorry. Do the effects of economic policy happen overnight where you live?
Alan Greenspan, 2010.
5 years later, USA didn't go for austerity policies and is now on the upswing. Europe did go for austerity policies and is in the midst of a deflationary spiral (ironically, to counter this they're now embracing monetary expansion but since everyone else is doing the same thing it likely won't be as impactful as the American one), political upheaval (sooo many fringe parties gaining traction, both from the left and (much more unfortunately) the nationalist right of the political spectrum) along with widespread misery for a whole lot of people.
Clearly reality is wrong about what's been happening, it should be taught a lesson.
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On March 01 2015 00:14 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 16:30 cLutZ wrote:
I severely doubt there will be an inflationary wave in America with Europe continuing to be so stagnant and unappetizing. And if it happened, there would be no way to predict it.
Plus places like Russia and China continue to be far to politically unstable for the rich in those countries to no be interested in America, its still the place you are probably least likely to have your property confiscated in.
Really, the failure of Keynesian is its failure to distinguish itself from just a general advocacy for welfare states and large centralized government. thats like saying the real failure of comparative morphology is its failure to distinguish itself from just a general advocacy for extinct species like dinosaurs you confuse the method with the object of study, and even further confuse analyzing with advocating.
Id argue they are inseparable, like a theoretical diet and the results. If you have a bacon, chips, and ice cream plan that works well in computer simulations, but always results in obesity, then you have Keynesianism.
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On March 01 2015 03:20 puerk wrote:
yeah currency markets managed to react to the sanctions and oil price regarding russia in a timeframe of days
but that crippling destroying inflation created by QE shows not a single indicator twitching over 5 years after the start... it is mindbending that you actually finished a degree, let alone in any economic faculty
The fact that you compare currency market flutuations to inflation makes me wonder why I bother...
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EPT
