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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On November 17 2016 08:05 Nyxisto wrote:
Very few people are in favour of Turkey joining the EU, and it will never happen with Merkel. She's incredibly opposed to it.
Favor or not is not as important as keeping your options open. The possibility of turkey joining the EU >might< be an incentive for them to change (it probably isnt anymore but I think it was in the past). Burning bridges without gaining anything in the process (well, except perhaps a big thanks from those 50 something soldiers) can not be considered smart politics.
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On November 17 2016 08:03 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 07:51 mahrgell wrote:
German government had announced about 2 weeks ago that we would grant asylum to those being in danger from the Erdogan regime. (Of course with the limitation that those are not considered terrorists in Germany)
There were quite a few diplomats already who successfully applied for asylum before and after that declaration. Why would we do anything different here? Isnt that like saying turkey is not a safe country or perhaps even a dangerous country because their own citizens have to fear unjust punishment? How could you stamp a country as dangerous and at the same time consider talks about that country joining the EU? Or just strengthen ties to turkey in general?
That is exactly what the vision of Turkey is in Germany.
And nobody is seriously considering letting them into the EU. It is kinda a bargain chip held by both sides, where both sides from time to time threaten to cancel all negotiations. (or hold a referendum to cancel them, lol) But those negotiations are completely frozen anyway, and Turkey is moving farther and farther away from the EU.
With them reintroducing the death penalty that chapter is finally completely closed though.
But at the same time, the German course was always to keep negotiations open, no matter with whom. Doesn't matter if it is Russia, Turkey or whoever. Even the Syrian peace conferences were held in Germany. Closing the door was never an option the current German government wanted to use on anybody.
And well... in the case of Turkey, they are still a NATO ally, they are playing a vital role in the Syria conflict and the refugee crisis and there is a huge Turkish minority in Germany. It is only natural you don't want to completely lose ties with them, even if you occasionally tell each other how much you despise the other.
If you had seen the last press conference when still foreign minister and soon to be president Steinmeier (who is comparably Turkey friendly in general) was in Turkey... You may indeed ask yourself why we even bother with them anymore. I guess Steinmeier was asking this himself too, when standing there and listening to the gibberish his Turkish pendant was spouting.
But soon Steinmeier will be gone as foreign minister (and the prez holds no power, so it is only an upgrade in name). If Schulz follows... Well... He is way more openly critical of Turkey, and his clashes with Turkey in the past have gone way further than Steinmeiers. Not sure how they will get along Schulz, when they already fail with Steinmeier.
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I dont really see what you are arguing in favor of. Are you in favor of cutting all ties to turkey (diplomatically) and calling them a lost cause?
Or are you in favor of playing nice and keeping diplomatic options open?
Because granting turkish soldiers asylum doesnt give you many choices in my opinion.
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Well... I just pointed out, that Germany in the past has decided to go between both pathes. Germany will accept asylum refugees, as officially announced in the past, while still keeping talks open.
Yes, this path seems rather uncommon in the international community. But it has been the German path for quite some time now.
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And you think that actually works?
Saying that you go down this path doesnt mean that anybody will actually accept it.
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On November 17 2016 03:19 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 03:09 WhiteDog wrote:
An ex criminal who is a liberal, a globalist and a technocrat. Yeah pretty close to Merkel. Isn't that the common thing with French presidents? Practically all of them had a past. It's practically a necessity if you want to get anywhere in French politics.
The norm would be fishy stories where the candidate does not exactly come out clean, but will never be convicted.
Main one for Juppe: when Chirac was mayor of Paris (1977-1995) and head of the RPR party (1976-2002), he had people working for the party and paid for by the city. They had fake jobs registered with the mayor office to do so. Juppe was (1988-1994) #2 of the RPR and in charge of finances for the mayor office in Paris.
Juppe was convicted in this case (1 year suspended prison).
There are a few other stories for which he wasn't convicted, for example suscpiciously low rent on a flat owned by the mayor office for him and for his son.
Not sure it will have an impact on his chances though.
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Dutch prosecutors demanded on Thursday that the anti-immigration politician Geert Wilders be fined 5,000 euros ($5,400) on charges of hate speech and discrimination. No prison sentence was sought.
Wilders faces charges of discrimination and inciting racial hatred at a rally in 2014, where he led supporters in chanting that they wanted fewer Moroccans in the Netherlands. He denies wrongdoing in the case, which comes four months before national elections.
The prosecution's demand is likely be dismissed by Wilders' opponents as too light. The maximum punishment under Dutch law is two years in prison.
As prosecutors spoke, lawmakers in Wilders' far-right Freedom Party walked onto the floor of parliament to protest. They held up a giant picture of Wilders with a red "X" over his mouth, a reference to limited free speech.
Prosecutors said in court they had proved that the comments made during regional campaigning were planned and intended to target a specific ethnic group - a violation of the constitution.
In a televised incident on March 19 2014, Wilders asked supporters whether they wanted more or fewer Moroccans. They chanted "Fewer! Fewer! Fewer!" A smiling Wilders responded, "We'll take care of that."
Prosecutors argued that Wilders had set up the scene and intentionally had his speech climax with a rhetorical question that would incite the crowd and attract media attention.
The Netherlands' 400,000 Moroccans make up about 2 percent of the population.
Prosecutors asked that his lack of remorse be considered when they render their judgment, most likely next month.
www.reuters.com
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On November 17 2016 17:20 RoomOfMush wrote:
And you think that actually works?
Saying that you go down this path doesnt mean that anybody will actually accept it.
Yeah, but buckling down from the beginning is the opposite of a diplomatic solution. Europe has to act united and strong, otherwise we will forever stay a playball for 3rd world nations like turkey or russia.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Am I wrong in perceiving some degree of pettiness in that prosecution? Maybe it's for not being a West European but that sounds like a total non-issue and especially not something to bring up 2 years later for petty charges.
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On November 17 2016 21:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 17:20 RoomOfMush wrote:
And you think that actually works?
Saying that you go down this path doesnt mean that anybody will actually accept it. Yeah, but buckling down from the beginning is the opposite of a diplomatic solution. Europe has to act united and strong, otherwise we will forever stay a playball for 3rd world nations like turkey or russia.
The EU is to big and to diverse to acted United and Strong.
The entire project suffers from drastic overreach crippeling its effectiveness.
As a trade union the size isnt such a big deal but as a political union it would have been much better to go back to something more limited like the original 6 founding countries to establish a solid base from which to work towards a United States of Europe.
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On November 17 2016 21:44 LegalLord wrote:
Am I wrong in perceiving some degree of pettiness in that prosecution? Maybe it's for not being a West European but that sounds like a total non-issue and especially not something to bring up 2 years later for petty charges.
The decision to prosecute him was already made in 2014. Due to delays and stuff the process only started recently. But yeah it's quite petty. While the speech was pretty distasteful it has been blown way out of proportion.
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On November 17 2016 19:38 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 03:19 maartendq wrote:On November 17 2016 03:09 WhiteDog wrote:
An ex criminal who is a liberal, a globalist and a technocrat. Yeah pretty close to Merkel. Isn't that the common thing with French presidents? Practically all of them had a past. It's practically a necessity if you want to get anywhere in French politics. The norm would be fishy stories where the candidate does not exactly come out clean, but will never be convicted. Main one for Juppe: when Chirac was mayor of Paris (1977-1995) and head of the RPR party (1976-2002), he had people working for the party and paid for by the city. They had fake jobs registered with the mayor office to do so. Juppe was (1988-1994) #2 of the RPR and in charge of finances for the mayor office in Paris. Juppe was convicted in this case (1 year suspended prison). There are a few other stories for which he wasn't convicted, for example suscpiciously low rent on a flat owned by the mayor office for him and for his son. Not sure it will have an impact on his chances though.
Sadly no, it's old stuff and his image was whitewashed since then.
Sarkozy was involved in much more recent shady stuff, yet his supporters—who live in a post-factual world—have no problem dismissing it as a conspiration against him. Our disgusting mass medias barely mentioned the last revelations of this week, and I'm sure they won't even discuss it seriously tonight (probably one question as a matter of form, followed by Sarkozy's usual “I'm persecuted!” rhetoric, then back to business as usual).
That's French political life in a nutshell: the “king of divine right” mentality clearly survived the end of monarchy.
I'm not sure there are similar “democracies” where you can fail your mandates, be convicted (or be charged twice in Sarkozy's case) yet come back years later to run again for the supreme position. People criticize politicians, then keep electing the same corrupt liars who have been here for decades: guess you have the political class that you deserve...
(Most ““political journalists”” being a bunch of servile cowards doesn't help either.)
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On November 17 2016 21:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 21:43 Big J wrote:On November 17 2016 17:20 RoomOfMush wrote:
And you think that actually works?
Saying that you go down this path doesnt mean that anybody will actually accept it. Yeah, but buckling down from the beginning is the opposite of a diplomatic solution. Europe has to act united and strong, otherwise we will forever stay a playball for 3rd world nations like turkey or russia. The EU is to big and to diverse to acted United and Strong. The entire project suffers from drastic overreach crippeling its effectiveness. As a trade union the size isnt such a big deal but as a political union it would have been much better to go back to something more limited like the original 6 founding countries to establish a solid base from which to work towards a United States of Europe.
The union needs to be big, otherwise it must not be strong. If it is strong but not big, then the states around will suffer if they have to act on their own and the divergence between countries inside and countries outside the union would increase, not decrease, making it even harder to expand the union eventually.
We see that nowadays with Turkey integrating back into the Muslim world and Eastern European countries outside of the union being torn between going full EU or full Russia.
I think it is much better to have an inefficient union that has to learn to love itself, rather than a small union that splits Europe even more drastically again, defying its original purpose of providing peace and stability - In varietate concordia.
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You know, they figured out a long time ago that it's much easier to control people if they all speak the same language, watch the same tv channels, read the same news, etc. Now, you talk about Europe learning to love itself... Is it perhaps an idea to work on some sort of "live translation" software that would allow people to tune in to TV of other European countries? Like, I can definitely imagine that if people were to actively consume media (TV, books, websites, whatever) from their neighbouring countries over a long period of time (say a couple of generations) then the idea of a united Europe won't seem quite as bizarre or offputting anymore. It would be a very gradual process, obviously, as it would be quite hard to get people to consume media from another country. There'd have to be a marketing process involved in this, I imagine, but I'm pretty sure you can sell almost anything to people.
Over time some national TV channels might end up being replaced by a "European" channel. Once that's there, put on some reality TV show with royalties from various European countries working together to beat the odds or something. Maybe this stuff could go paired with some implementation of, say, shared European holidays where people can celebrate their shared heritage. Add some Hyperloop connections between major cities so the distance between East-West as well as North-South becomes less pronounced and people from different countries can interact more (advanced live translation software might be useful here too).
I swear, I should just be dictator of Europe for a couple of decades to make all this happen.
Oh, here's a thought: maybe the various pirate parties throughout Europe can begin spreading various national memes with each other to kick all of this off right now, slowly building up to live translated social media, books and eventually even TV.
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On November 17 2016 22:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 21:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 17 2016 21:43 Big J wrote:On November 17 2016 17:20 RoomOfMush wrote:
And you think that actually works?
Saying that you go down this path doesnt mean that anybody will actually accept it. Yeah, but buckling down from the beginning is the opposite of a diplomatic solution. Europe has to act united and strong, otherwise we will forever stay a playball for 3rd world nations like turkey or russia. The EU is to big and to diverse to acted United and Strong. The entire project suffers from drastic overreach crippeling its effectiveness. As a trade union the size isnt such a big deal but as a political union it would have been much better to go back to something more limited like the original 6 founding countries to establish a solid base from which to work towards a United States of Europe. The union needs to be big, otherwise it must not be strong. If it is strong but not big, then the states around will suffer if they have to act on their own and the divergence between countries inside and countries outside the union would increase, not decrease, making it even harder to expand the union eventually. We see that nowadays with Turkey integrating back into the Muslim world and Eastern European countries outside of the union being torn between going full EU or full Russia. I think it is much better to have an inefficient union that has to learn to love itself, rather than a small union that splits Europe even more drastically again, defying its original purpose of providing peace and stability - In varietate concordia. well then how about you be the inefficient one working for 350$ a month. geezus man, that flower power bullshit only works when you're stoned.
sure there will be the rich and the poor but can you not realize what teaching different histories to people can mean for your would be mystical experience/foresight?.
US only had centuries of slavery and can't let it go and you think our thousands upon thousands of years of killing and backstabbing each other can be fixed with a nationalism reassignment surgery?.
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On November 17 2016 22:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 21:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 17 2016 21:43 Big J wrote:On November 17 2016 17:20 RoomOfMush wrote:
And you think that actually works?
Saying that you go down this path doesnt mean that anybody will actually accept it. Yeah, but buckling down from the beginning is the opposite of a diplomatic solution. Europe has to act united and strong, otherwise we will forever stay a playball for 3rd world nations like turkey or russia. The EU is to big and to diverse to acted United and Strong. The entire project suffers from drastic overreach crippeling its effectiveness. As a trade union the size isnt such a big deal but as a political union it would have been much better to go back to something more limited like the original 6 founding countries to establish a solid base from which to work towards a United States of Europe. The union needs to be big, otherwise it must not be strong. If it is strong but not big, then the states around will suffer if they have to act on their own and the divergence between countries inside and countries outside the union would increase, not decrease, making it even harder to expand the union eventually. We see that nowadays with Turkey integrating back into the Muslim world and Eastern European countries outside of the union being torn between going full EU or full Russia. I think it is much better to have an inefficient union that has to learn to love itself, rather than a small union that splits Europe even more drastically again, defying its original purpose of providing peace and stability - In varietate concordia.
I agree with what you are saying. It needs to be this and it needs to be that. But the way to get to the point, to get to be what it needs to be, that is the difficult one.
On November 17 2016 23:56 a_flayer wrote:
You know, they figured out a long time ago that it's much easier to control people if they all speak the same language, watch the same tv channels, read the same news, etc. Now, you talk about Europe learning to love itself... Is it perhaps an idea to work on some sort of "live translation" software that would allow people to tune in to TV of other European countries? Like, I can definitely imagine that if people were to actively consume media (TV, books, websites, whatever) from their neighbouring countries over a long period of time (say a couple of generations) then the idea of a united Europe won't seem quite as bizarre or offputting anymore. It would be a very gradual process, obviously, as it would be quite hard to get people to consume media from another country. There'd have to be a marketing process involved in this, I imagine, but I'm pretty sure you can sell almost anything to people.
Over time some national TV channels might end up being replaced by a "European" channel. Once that's there, put on some reality TV show with royalties from various European countries working together to beat the odds or something. Maybe this stuff could go paired with some implementation of, say, shared European holidays where people can celebrate their shared heritage. Add some Hyperloop connections between major cities so the distance between East-West as well as North-South becomes less pronounced and people from different countries can interact more (advanced live translation software might be useful here too).
I swear, I should just be dictator of Europe for a couple of decades to make all this happen.
Oh, here's a thought: maybe the various pirate parties throughout Europe can begin spreading various national memes with each other to kick all of this off right now, slowly building up to live translated social media, books and eventually even TV.
We already have that in a certain way. I am able to listen to french, UK or german radio. Dont know about TV because I dont have one, but I wouldnt be surprised if that is already possible too. But I dont know how well that is going to work with people speaking different languages. That is too big of a burden for regular people.
Even if everybody in europe was able to speak 4 or 5 languages that would still not be nearly enough for all 27 countries.
On November 18 2016 00:19 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2016 22:57 Big J wrote:On November 17 2016 21:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 17 2016 21:43 Big J wrote:On November 17 2016 17:20 RoomOfMush wrote:
And you think that actually works?
Saying that you go down this path doesnt mean that anybody will actually accept it. Yeah, but buckling down from the beginning is the opposite of a diplomatic solution. Europe has to act united and strong, otherwise we will forever stay a playball for 3rd world nations like turkey or russia. The EU is to big and to diverse to acted United and Strong. The entire project suffers from drastic overreach crippeling its effectiveness. As a trade union the size isnt such a big deal but as a political union it would have been much better to go back to something more limited like the original 6 founding countries to establish a solid base from which to work towards a United States of Europe. The union needs to be big, otherwise it must not be strong. If it is strong but not big, then the states around will suffer if they have to act on their own and the divergence between countries inside and countries outside the union would increase, not decrease, making it even harder to expand the union eventually. We see that nowadays with Turkey integrating back into the Muslim world and Eastern European countries outside of the union being torn between going full EU or full Russia. I think it is much better to have an inefficient union that has to learn to love itself, rather than a small union that splits Europe even more drastically again, defying its original purpose of providing peace and stability - In varietate concordia. well then how about you be the inefficient one working for 350$ a month. geezus man, that flower power bullshit only works when you're stoned. sure there will be the rich and the poor but can you not realize what teaching different histories to people can mean for your would be mystical experience/foresight?. US only had centuries of slavery and can't let it go and you think our thousands upon thousands of years of killing and backstabbing each other can be fixed with a nationalism reassignment surgery?.
well then how about you be the efficient one working for almost nothing in a poor country with a failing economy. geezus man, that strongman / bully bullshit only works when you're uneducated and simple minded.
sure there will be the extremists and the haters but can you not realize what teaching shared values to people can mean for your would be mystical experience/foresight?.
Europe had centuries of war and hatred and managed to let it go within a few decades and establish perhaps the safest place on earth and you think this can be broken with some defensive nationalistic bullshit?
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first, get off your horse and then maybe you'll realize that people never let it go. that "teaching shared values to people" never fucking happen outside your propaganda circle, but if by any chance children hear in school about EU and its greatness, when they'll go back home they'll be schooled the right way by their 80yr old grandparents because fuck yea, the parents work 10/12h a day if they're even there and not slaving in UK somewhere.
oh and yea, you totally misread my post but i forgive you, you were on a horse ...
User was warned for this post
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On November 18 2016 01:29 xM(Z wrote:
first, get off your horse and then maybe you'll realize that people never let it go. that "teaching shared values to people" never fucking happen outside your propaganda circle, but if by any chance children hear in school about EU and its greatness, when they'll go back home they'll be schooled the right way by their 80yr old grandparents because fuck yea, the parents work 10/12h a day if they're even there and not slaving in UK somewhere.
oh and yea, you totally misread my post but i forgive you, you were on a horse ...
first, get off your dog and then maybe you'll realize that people never let it go. that "different histories" never fucking happen outside your propaganda circle, but if by any chance children hear at home about EU and its flaws, when they'll go to school and they'll be schooled the right way by their educated teachers because fuck yea, the system works.
oh and yea, you totally misread my post but i forgive you, you were a clown ...
User was warned for this post
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EU-US trade deal cannot now be concluded, says German chancellor Angela Merkel, but hopes to come back to it 'one day'.
www.euronews.com
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On November 18 2016 02:43 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +EU-US trade deal cannot now be concluded, says German chancellor Angela Merkel, but hopes to come back to it 'one day'. www.euronews.com
I think that's somewhat old news but first time Merkel herself said it?
I'm fairly sure I've heard it the last couple days from... I want to say Steinmeier but not sure right now...
Anyways, honestly comes as no surprise. It took us everything we had to get everyone on board for a deal with Canada so I wouldn't have expected anything no matter the person on the other end of the table
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EPT
