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On June 02 2016 23:14 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 23:09 lastpuritan wrote:
Maybe it's not about balls but personal call. Would it make any difference to Turkey part by any measure, oh Merkel wasn't there so there's nothing to worry about ha?
Context is obvious. This solution didn't pass last year, or this year in April, or the last 100 years but at one specific time, when Germany felt helpless in its foreign policy.
Crime is a crime if you really care human lives. Dropping tons of bombs or atomic bombs needs their solution as well. But Germany has no power or courage to create those solutions as it seems. As if this "solution" is something worthy but a tool to annoy turks. Maybe i am stupid, or it is because english is not my first language, but it appears to me that you imply some sort of knowledge of what you are talking about in your post. At least to me, the context is not obvious. Would you mind clearly stating what you want to say? What is this "solution" to bombs dropped 60+ years ago that you are talking about?
What is this solution to genocide that happened a century ago? Bombs were real, but Allied claims of genocide are groundless.
Mass killings + crime against humanity = yes.
Genocide = no.
This has been confirmed by US government of that time and GB court said no evidence and freed ottoman officials.I wonder how many of people here spared their time to read some history, not newspaper history though.
I'm openly saying, this was a demonstration of using democracy as a tool to shape history AND using history to gain upper hand against Turkey. Because there is nothing Germany can do as a "solution" if there was they waited 100 years for that that's almost as big as the crime itself.
So why Germany is not producing a solution about that atomic bomb or Dresden bombing, maybe US will change its mind on Ukraine and come to Merkel's point, that may work.
Here are my other posts about genocide on this forum, with some history in it.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2016 11:06 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 10:11 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 23:25 lastpuritan wrote:On April 08 2016 15:02 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 12:41 lastpuritan wrote:If you are so interested in civilian casualties of WW1 and what caused it, why don't you be equal to every part of the Ottoman society? Most of the historians of previous era (including armenian ones) claim the number of the armenians deaths are 300.000 to 750.000. Stop lying to yourself. If there is a genocidal act, it doesn't matter if it was 300.000 or 1.5 millions. Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.
If looked at without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population — approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million. Among the 5 million, 771,844 were military casualties killed in action and other causes.The military only covers 15% of the total casualties. The main question is what happened to 85% (spread over all citizens) of the casualties, which is more but not less than 4,000,000 during WW1. From 1821 to 1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Turks were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease. Genocide was not a crime until the year 1948. That basically means old world fancied the idea of mass murdering and took it as a fair-game. But of course, nobody will give a damn about Assyrians, Greeks or Turks who lost their lives 2 or 3 or 10 times more than Armenians before and after the Great War, because they are not bringing it up and dramatizing it every year like it happened yesterday. Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. Total number of civilian deaths of non-allied countries would blew your mind, who killed them, SOLDIERS. I don't care which soldier, greek or turk, SOLDIERS. And you seem to pick only Armenians out of the huge list. Why is that? Civilian causalities in a war are not genocide, as a genocide is a targeted elimination of a group based on race or religion. And where did you get that 500000 or less list of casualties for Armenians? the lowest source from somewhere any where other than Turkey puts it at 800 thousand. And war time casualties are not the same thing as genocide at all, no matter how much genocide apologists try to pretend it is. So you are telling me allied forces (mostly greek ) was not targeting cleansing of turkic people out of Aegean region? And please, show me one single official paper signed by Ottoman officials orders genocide of Armenians. There is none. PERIOD. However, that does not erase the fact that some of the Ottoman officers and kurdish tribes commit genocidal acts towards thousands of innocent armenian people. Don't get me wrong. And also the armenian milita who burnt down turkish villages, famous with rape, inpaling, mass murder of woman, children and elder people, you can't erase that too. There are even memories of Russian soldiers who witnessed this brutal butchery. Puppet amazes puppeteer. You can't read history with emotions or motivations. Every truth has two sides. You want official doccuments ordering ethnic cleansing, here you go www.genocide-museum.am. The continuing denial of the genocide from turkey continues to produce hostility and leading to unite people under hatred and fear. There is only one truth to this story, and one side denying what they did. I'm glad this conflict is slowing down, but people in here denying the genocide are just as awful as Holocaust deniers. Nope, there is only a country, which has been insignificant throughout its history, trying to make something out of itself and have a place in the world by dramatizing a tragedy which affected not just Armenians, but all who lived in Ottoman lands throughout the WWI. Nobody talks about hundreds of thousands of people who perished and were driven away from their home in the Balkans by the Russians, Bulgarians and Greeks in the 19th century. Or the people who the Greek army crammed into a mosque and burned it down while they were inside during the WWI. Or the rapes. Or the killings. Because a Turk's life isn't worth anything compared to the rest I suppose. Noone would have cared about Srebrenica if it wasn't followed closely by media. Take the genocide stuff out and Armenia has nothing to live for. They are at best a leftover satellite state from the Soviets, plagued by a weak economy and overall stagnancy. The fact that they distort the history and exploit the suffering of their own people for political gains is disgusting. On a sidenote, I have no idea how this topic became to be about the so-called Armenian Genocide. On April 09 2016 14:06 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 11:27 Salazarz wrote:On April 09 2016 11:06 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2016 10:11 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 23:25 lastpuritan wrote:On April 08 2016 15:02 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 12:41 lastpuritan wrote:If you are so interested in civilian casualties of WW1 and what caused it, why don't you be equal to every part of the Ottoman society? Most of the historians of previous era (including armenian ones) claim the number of the armenians deaths are 300.000 to 750.000. Stop lying to yourself. If there is a genocidal act, it doesn't matter if it was 300.000 or 1.5 millions. Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.
If looked at without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population — approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million. Among the 5 million, 771,844 were military casualties killed in action and other causes.The military only covers 15% of the total casualties. The main question is what happened to 85% (spread over all citizens) of the casualties, which is more but not less than 4,000,000 during WW1. From 1821 to 1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Turks were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease. Genocide was not a crime until the year 1948. That basically means old world fancied the idea of mass murdering and took it as a fair-game. But of course, nobody will give a damn about Assyrians, Greeks or Turks who lost their lives 2 or 3 or 10 times more than Armenians before and after the Great War, because they are not bringing it up and dramatizing it every year like it happened yesterday. Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. Total number of civilian deaths of non-allied countries would blew your mind, who killed them, SOLDIERS. I don't care which soldier, greek or turk, SOLDIERS. And you seem to pick only Armenians out of the huge list. Why is that? Civilian causalities in a war are not genocide, as a genocide is a targeted elimination of a group based on race or religion. And where did you get that 500000 or less list of casualties for Armenians? the lowest source from somewhere any where other than Turkey puts it at 800 thousand. And war time casualties are not the same thing as genocide at all, no matter how much genocide apologists try to pretend it is. So you are telling me allied forces (mostly greek ) was not targeting cleansing of turkic people out of Aegean region? And please, show me one single official paper signed by Ottoman officials orders genocide of Armenians. There is none. PERIOD. However, that does not erase the fact that some of the Ottoman officers and kurdish tribes commit genocidal acts towards thousands of innocent armenian people. Don't get me wrong. And also the armenian milita who burnt down turkish villages, famous with rape, inpaling, mass murder of woman, children and elder people, you can't erase that too. There are even memories of Russian soldiers who witnessed this brutal butchery. Puppet amazes puppeteer. You can't read history with emotions or motivations. Every truth has two sides. You want official doccuments ordering ethnic cleansing, here you go www.genocide-museum.am. The continuing denial of the genocide from turkey continues to produce hostility and leading to unite people under hatred and fear. There is only one truth to this story, and one side denying what they did. I'm glad this conflict is slowing down, but people in here denying the genocide are just as awful as Holocaust deniers. Nope, there is only a country, which has been insignificant throughout its history, trying to make something out of itself and have a place in the world by dramatizing a tragedy which affected not just Armenians, but all who lived in Ottoman lands throughout the WWI. Nobody talks about hundreds of thousands of people who perished and were driven away from their home in the Balkans by the Russians, Bulgarians and Greeks in the 19th century. Or the people who the Greek army crammed into a mosque and burned it down while they were inside during the WWI. Or the rapes. Or the killings. Because a Turk's life isn't worth anything compared to the rest I suppose. Noone would have cared about Srebrenica if it wasn't followed closely by media. Take the genocide stuff out and Armenia has nothing to live for. They are at best a leftover satellite state from the Soviets, plagued by a weak economy and overall stagnancy. The fact that they distort the history and exploit the suffering of their own people for political gains is disgusting. On a sidenote, I have no idea how this topic became to be about the so-called Armenian Genocide. Look, lots of people died during WW1, in every country not just ex-Ottoman Empire. War is terrible, everyone knows that -- and all the parties involved are at least somewhat accepting of it. There are plenty of monuments and museums dedicated to Greeks, Buglarians, Tatars, Turks, you name it who died during the atrocities of WW1. It's different for Armenians because they were specifically targetted by their own government and the lack of 'documents' pertaining to it doesn't disprove the fact that a wide-scale 'cleansing' of Armenians happened, it merely goes to show just how unwilling to admit it are the Turks, which makes it all the worse. Armenia wasn't 'insignificant' throughout history, it wasn't even a country throughout history because it was occupied by Ottomans for centuries; but instead of recognizing the past tragedies in their history, thanks to people like you so many just brush them off as attention seekers or something stupid like that. It's the same reason people still hate Japan all over Asia, just man the fuck up and admit your past leaders screwed up, it doesn't make you a lesser man or something, but no, they would rather glorify their past retarded imperialist ambitions and pretend it was all roses and butterflies. Like, it's literally the same as trying to defend Hitler because you know, the UK bombed plenty of civilians in Germany and Soviets weren't all that nice when they drove to Berlin and stuff. Doesn't work that way. "Specifically targetted by their own government" does not fully fit for the things happened there, that's the problem. When you claim there was an intention to destroy armenian race entirely, it is questionable why and how the Armenians who lived in Western Turkey survived, or why and how some of the deportations were successfully completed without a major loss of armenian lives, could not they kill all of them when they were on the road or when they first reached Ottoman Syria? Objectively speaking, there is no final evidence to link Ottoman government with this crime. This is why it differs from Hitler's Germany and why world does not take any action against Turkey. Hitler systematically tried to erase a race whilst Ottomans officially decided to deport Armenians who lived in Southern Turkey - under affect of Caucasus Campaign of Russians and Armenian revolt. Then what happened? Many of the turkish soldiers eye-witnessed mass murdering of armenian civilians by some of the mid-rank Turkish officers and Kurdish tribes. Armenians were the smallest minority in Southern Turkey but they wanted to grab huge lands from Kurdish tribes, todays Kurdistan. Most of the historians know majority of the mass murderings are done by Kurdish tribes and there is even a claim that those Kurdish officers promised them land in return of this favor. [ Ocalan - founder of the PKK - once stated Armenians are the real enemies of Kurds 3 years ago during the time when peace talks recently started with the Turks] However, eye witnessing low-rank soldier report is said to be perished until deport is done. [see the possible dmg to Kurdish - US relations if debated openly] Propaganda machine was working crazy back in those times, Armenian milita leaders made good propaganda out of this deports and the first number raising thing started harshly. Ottoman officials desperately tried to counter propaganda but it was off the hook. There were investigators all around the Anatolia, leading a court held in Malta. British were occupying Ottoman capital, they dig into archives and found no evidence. Further they demanded evidence from United States (who had officials in Turkey to investigate such claims) but US couldnt help them either. This is WHY todays UK doesnt call it genocide, still. They eventually released all the Ottoman officials. See how France and some Brits objected these courts at that time: Show nested quote +Admiral Webb, for instance, the Acting British High-Commissioner, wrote in March 1919 “... question of evidence in regard to massacres will be extremely difficult.” French authorities were against those arrests and the deportations which they characterized as “political measures.” Admiral de Roebeck, the British High-Commissioner in Istanbul, wrote in September 1919 that “... it was impossible to rely on the allegations presented as facts [by the accusing party], and that to sustain definite charges against these persons before an Allied Tribunal would be very difficult.” In fact, none of the deportees was arrested on the basis of any evidence, and no dossier in a legal sense ever existed to incriminate any of the detainees. Show nested quote + Such a summary arrest of the high-ranked Turkish officials "presumed" guilty of alleged offenses is a blatant discrimination against a single category of enemies, i.e. the Muslim Turks, while the German, Austrian and Bulgarian war criminals were released and repatriated to their native countries before their peace treaties were ratified. The French government shared the opinion of General Franchet d'Espercy and the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Pichon addressed a note on March 5, 1919 to Lord Derby, the British Ambassador in Paris. expressing his government's disapproval for this action.
British Archives: PRO—F. 0. 371/4172/26160
Derby to Foreign Office, Telegram No: 454 March 5, 1919
Show nested quote +The British Government had condemned the massacres at the time. But in the absence of unequivocal evidence that the Ottoman Administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at that time, British Governments have not recognized those events as indications of genocide. Nor do we believe it is the business of Governments of today to review events of over 80 years ago, with a view to pronouncing them."
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, Foreign Office spokesperson, April 14, 1999 See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_to_prosecute_Ottoman_war_criminals#cite_ref-20http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/malta-details.htm ( MAIL TRAFFIC BETWEEN BRITISH OFFICIALS AND US ) There are other factors like Ottomans punished some of the officers for mass murdering of armenians and the confess of first Armenian leader Hovhannes Kajaznuni here http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/01/2279-we-betrayed-turkish-state.html and from the archives here: https://sites.google.com/site/armenians19152/DASHNAGTZOUTIUN.pdf?attredirects=0 (This manifest was banned in Armenia) (pages 31- 32 kill me every time) Page 28 introduction from John Roy Carlson All of these reports are can be followed within British archives yet world media is solely focused on dramatic testimonies and how Kim Kardashian family survived. This is still propaganda in a harmful way to its own cause, raising numbers every year, dramatically fantasizing it and pledging hatred add nothing to memory of fallen innocent armenian lives. Most of the Armenians today never read these archives but hate Turkey without a doubt. God knows if Ottoman officials were so smart that they left no papers behind to prove it, or there were no intentions for such crime yet their officers acted vengefully HOWEVER, there will be no recognition from Turkey long as it exists, all the killers are dead, Ottoman Empire no longer exists. There is no reason for Turkey to take that claim. Official recognition is a huge game-changer that would change many things for Turkey. On the other hand Armenians today can sue Turkish government and take their prosperity back from the state, current government returned many lands to back to their Armenian owners. It would be great if government build an Armenian monument within Turkey, that is my personal opinion on the issue. Lets leave this aside and keep up todays conflict. Russia has great influence on both Armenians and Azeris, how come it cant stop current conflict? On April 09 2016 14:21 lastpuritan wrote:Most of the "talat pasha telegrams" are proven to be fake internationally. This was the first blow to Armenian cause years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memoirs_of_Naim_BeyThe ottoman empire had yearbooks in which all the government officials were included. Examination of these yearbooks has demonstrated that there was no official named naim bey in aleppo during the years in question." - kamuran gurun, the armenian file, p.238 There is no single evidence on NAIM BEY ever lived except that book. "Ebensowenig entsinne ich mich des Namens Naim Bey[...]Ich stelle ergebenst anheim, auch Schwester Beatrice Rohner um eine Äusserung zu bitten. Sie hat mit den Verschickungskommissaren wohl mehrfach direkt zu verhandeln gehabt. Eyub Bey kennt sie persönlich. Ob sie auch Naim Bey kennt, oder Abdul Ahad Nuri Bey, kann ich nicht sagen. Jedenfalls wird ihre Äusserung von Wert sein. Auch Konsul Hoffmann derzeit bei der Paßstelle des Auswärtigen Amtes, Behrenstrasse 21 wird möglicherweise ein begründetes Urteil abzugeben in der Lage sein" Further evidence confirms they are fake: Klaus Kreiser: Kleines Türkei-Lexikon. Münih 1996, Talat-Paşa-Telegramme Guenter Lewy The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide, Salt Lake City 2005, S. 73 Christopher J. Walker World War I and the Armenian Genocide, The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times, New York 1997, S. 247 Erik-Jan Zürcher Turkey: A Modern History, Londra 2004, S.115/116 The Armenian side has tried to demonstrate this involvement, but some of the documents it has produced (the so-called Andonian papers) have been shown to be forgeries. Here is the page 115: https://books.google.de/books?id=RInzgxRX5uEC&pg=PA115&dq=zürcher turkey andonian&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
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On June 02 2016 23:30 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 23:14 Simberto wrote:On June 02 2016 23:09 lastpuritan wrote:
Maybe it's not about balls but personal call. Would it make any difference to Turkey part by any measure, oh Merkel wasn't there so there's nothing to worry about ha?
Context is obvious. This solution didn't pass last year, or this year in April, or the last 100 years but at one specific time, when Germany felt helpless in its foreign policy.
Crime is a crime if you really care human lives. Dropping tons of bombs or atomic bombs needs their solution as well. But Germany has no power or courage to create those solutions as it seems. As if this "solution" is something worthy but a tool to annoy turks. Maybe i am stupid, or it is because english is not my first language, but it appears to me that you imply some sort of knowledge of what you are talking about in your post. At least to me, the context is not obvious. Would you mind clearly stating what you want to say? What is this "solution" to bombs dropped 60+ years ago that you are talking about? What is this solution to genocide that happened a century ago? Bombs were real, but Allied claims of genocide are groundless. Mass killings + crime against humanity = yes. Genocide = no. This has been confirmed by US government of that time and GB court said no evidence and freed ottoman officials.I wonder how many of people here spared their time to read some history, not newspaper history though. I'm openly saying, this was a demonstration of using democracy as a tool to shape history AND using history to gain upper hand against Turkey. Because there is nothing Germany can do as a "solution" if there was they waited 100 years for that that's almost as big as the crime itself. So why Germany is not producing a solution about that atomic bomb or Dresden bombing, maybe US will change its mind on Ukraine and come to Merkel's point, that may work. Here are my other posts about genocide on this forum, with some history in it. + Show Spoiler +On April 09 2016 11:06 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 10:11 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 23:25 lastpuritan wrote:On April 08 2016 15:02 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 12:41 lastpuritan wrote:If you are so interested in civilian casualties of WW1 and what caused it, why don't you be equal to every part of the Ottoman society? Most of the historians of previous era (including armenian ones) claim the number of the armenians deaths are 300.000 to 750.000. Stop lying to yourself. If there is a genocidal act, it doesn't matter if it was 300.000 or 1.5 millions. Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.
If looked at without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population — approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million. Among the 5 million, 771,844 were military casualties killed in action and other causes.The military only covers 15% of the total casualties. The main question is what happened to 85% (spread over all citizens) of the casualties, which is more but not less than 4,000,000 during WW1. From 1821 to 1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Turks were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease. Genocide was not a crime until the year 1948. That basically means old world fancied the idea of mass murdering and took it as a fair-game. But of course, nobody will give a damn about Assyrians, Greeks or Turks who lost their lives 2 or 3 or 10 times more than Armenians before and after the Great War, because they are not bringing it up and dramatizing it every year like it happened yesterday. Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. Total number of civilian deaths of non-allied countries would blew your mind, who killed them, SOLDIERS. I don't care which soldier, greek or turk, SOLDIERS. And you seem to pick only Armenians out of the huge list. Why is that? Civilian causalities in a war are not genocide, as a genocide is a targeted elimination of a group based on race or religion. And where did you get that 500000 or less list of casualties for Armenians? the lowest source from somewhere any where other than Turkey puts it at 800 thousand. And war time casualties are not the same thing as genocide at all, no matter how much genocide apologists try to pretend it is. So you are telling me allied forces (mostly greek ) was not targeting cleansing of turkic people out of Aegean region? And please, show me one single official paper signed by Ottoman officials orders genocide of Armenians. There is none. PERIOD. However, that does not erase the fact that some of the Ottoman officers and kurdish tribes commit genocidal acts towards thousands of innocent armenian people. Don't get me wrong. And also the armenian milita who burnt down turkish villages, famous with rape, inpaling, mass murder of woman, children and elder people, you can't erase that too. There are even memories of Russian soldiers who witnessed this brutal butchery. Puppet amazes puppeteer. You can't read history with emotions or motivations. Every truth has two sides. You want official doccuments ordering ethnic cleansing, here you go www.genocide-museum.am. The continuing denial of the genocide from turkey continues to produce hostility and leading to unite people under hatred and fear. There is only one truth to this story, and one side denying what they did. I'm glad this conflict is slowing down, but people in here denying the genocide are just as awful as Holocaust deniers. Nope, there is only a country, which has been insignificant throughout its history, trying to make something out of itself and have a place in the world by dramatizing a tragedy which affected not just Armenians, but all who lived in Ottoman lands throughout the WWI. Nobody talks about hundreds of thousands of people who perished and were driven away from their home in the Balkans by the Russians, Bulgarians and Greeks in the 19th century. Or the people who the Greek army crammed into a mosque and burned it down while they were inside during the WWI. Or the rapes. Or the killings. Because a Turk's life isn't worth anything compared to the rest I suppose. Noone would have cared about Srebrenica if it wasn't followed closely by media. Take the genocide stuff out and Armenia has nothing to live for. They are at best a leftover satellite state from the Soviets, plagued by a weak economy and overall stagnancy. The fact that they distort the history and exploit the suffering of their own people for political gains is disgusting. On a sidenote, I have no idea how this topic became to be about the so-called Armenian Genocide. On April 09 2016 14:06 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 11:27 Salazarz wrote:On April 09 2016 11:06 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2016 10:11 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 23:25 lastpuritan wrote:On April 08 2016 15:02 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 12:41 lastpuritan wrote:If you are so interested in civilian casualties of WW1 and what caused it, why don't you be equal to every part of the Ottoman society? Most of the historians of previous era (including armenian ones) claim the number of the armenians deaths are 300.000 to 750.000. Stop lying to yourself. If there is a genocidal act, it doesn't matter if it was 300.000 or 1.5 millions. Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.
If looked at without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population — approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million. Among the 5 million, 771,844 were military casualties killed in action and other causes.The military only covers 15% of the total casualties. The main question is what happened to 85% (spread over all citizens) of the casualties, which is more but not less than 4,000,000 during WW1. From 1821 to 1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Turks were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease. Genocide was not a crime until the year 1948. That basically means old world fancied the idea of mass murdering and took it as a fair-game. But of course, nobody will give a damn about Assyrians, Greeks or Turks who lost their lives 2 or 3 or 10 times more than Armenians before and after the Great War, because they are not bringing it up and dramatizing it every year like it happened yesterday. Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. Total number of civilian deaths of non-allied countries would blew your mind, who killed them, SOLDIERS. I don't care which soldier, greek or turk, SOLDIERS. And you seem to pick only Armenians out of the huge list. Why is that? Civilian causalities in a war are not genocide, as a genocide is a targeted elimination of a group based on race or religion. And where did you get that 500000 or less list of casualties for Armenians? the lowest source from somewhere any where other than Turkey puts it at 800 thousand. And war time casualties are not the same thing as genocide at all, no matter how much genocide apologists try to pretend it is. So you are telling me allied forces (mostly greek ) was not targeting cleansing of turkic people out of Aegean region? And please, show me one single official paper signed by Ottoman officials orders genocide of Armenians. There is none. PERIOD. However, that does not erase the fact that some of the Ottoman officers and kurdish tribes commit genocidal acts towards thousands of innocent armenian people. Don't get me wrong. And also the armenian milita who burnt down turkish villages, famous with rape, inpaling, mass murder of woman, children and elder people, you can't erase that too. There are even memories of Russian soldiers who witnessed this brutal butchery. Puppet amazes puppeteer. You can't read history with emotions or motivations. Every truth has two sides. You want official doccuments ordering ethnic cleansing, here you go www.genocide-museum.am. The continuing denial of the genocide from turkey continues to produce hostility and leading to unite people under hatred and fear. There is only one truth to this story, and one side denying what they did. I'm glad this conflict is slowing down, but people in here denying the genocide are just as awful as Holocaust deniers. Nope, there is only a country, which has been insignificant throughout its history, trying to make something out of itself and have a place in the world by dramatizing a tragedy which affected not just Armenians, but all who lived in Ottoman lands throughout the WWI. Nobody talks about hundreds of thousands of people who perished and were driven away from their home in the Balkans by the Russians, Bulgarians and Greeks in the 19th century. Or the people who the Greek army crammed into a mosque and burned it down while they were inside during the WWI. Or the rapes. Or the killings. Because a Turk's life isn't worth anything compared to the rest I suppose. Noone would have cared about Srebrenica if it wasn't followed closely by media. Take the genocide stuff out and Armenia has nothing to live for. They are at best a leftover satellite state from the Soviets, plagued by a weak economy and overall stagnancy. The fact that they distort the history and exploit the suffering of their own people for political gains is disgusting. On a sidenote, I have no idea how this topic became to be about the so-called Armenian Genocide. Look, lots of people died during WW1, in every country not just ex-Ottoman Empire. War is terrible, everyone knows that -- and all the parties involved are at least somewhat accepting of it. There are plenty of monuments and museums dedicated to Greeks, Buglarians, Tatars, Turks, you name it who died during the atrocities of WW1. It's different for Armenians because they were specifically targetted by their own government and the lack of 'documents' pertaining to it doesn't disprove the fact that a wide-scale 'cleansing' of Armenians happened, it merely goes to show just how unwilling to admit it are the Turks, which makes it all the worse. Armenia wasn't 'insignificant' throughout history, it wasn't even a country throughout history because it was occupied by Ottomans for centuries; but instead of recognizing the past tragedies in their history, thanks to people like you so many just brush them off as attention seekers or something stupid like that. It's the same reason people still hate Japan all over Asia, just man the fuck up and admit your past leaders screwed up, it doesn't make you a lesser man or something, but no, they would rather glorify their past retarded imperialist ambitions and pretend it was all roses and butterflies. Like, it's literally the same as trying to defend Hitler because you know, the UK bombed plenty of civilians in Germany and Soviets weren't all that nice when they drove to Berlin and stuff. Doesn't work that way. "Specifically targetted by their own government" does not fully fit for the things happened there, that's the problem. When you claim there was an intention to destroy armenian race entirely, it is questionable why and how the Armenians who lived in Western Turkey survived, or why and how some of the deportations were successfully completed without a major loss of armenian lives, could not they kill all of them when they were on the road or when they first reached Ottoman Syria? Objectively speaking, there is no final evidence to link Ottoman government with this crime. This is why it differs from Hitler's Germany and why world does not take any action against Turkey. Hitler systematically tried to erase a race whilst Ottomans officially decided to deport Armenians who lived in Southern Turkey - under affect of Caucasus Campaign of Russians and Armenian revolt. Then what happened? Many of the turkish soldiers eye-witnessed mass murdering of armenian civilians by some of the mid-rank Turkish officers and Kurdish tribes. Armenians were the smallest minority in Southern Turkey but they wanted to grab huge lands from Kurdish tribes, todays Kurdistan. Most of the historians know majority of the mass murderings are done by Kurdish tribes and there is even a claim that those Kurdish officers promised them land in return of this favor. [ Ocalan - founder of the PKK - once stated Armenians are the real enemies of Kurds 3 years ago during the time when peace talks recently started with the Turks] However, eye witnessing low-rank soldier report is said to be perished until deport is done. [see the possible dmg to Kurdish - US relations if debated openly] Propaganda machine was working crazy back in those times, Armenian milita leaders made good propaganda out of this deports and the first number raising thing started harshly. Ottoman officials desperately tried to counter propaganda but it was off the hook. There were investigators all around the Anatolia, leading a court held in Malta. British were occupying Ottoman capital, they dig into archives and found no evidence. Further they demanded evidence from United States (who had officials in Turkey to investigate such claims) but US couldnt help them either. This is WHY todays UK doesnt call it genocide, still. They eventually released all the Ottoman officials. See how France and some Brits objected these courts at that time: Show nested quote +Admiral Webb, for instance, the Acting British High-Commissioner, wrote in March 1919 “... question of evidence in regard to massacres will be extremely difficult.” French authorities were against those arrests and the deportations which they characterized as “political measures.” Admiral de Roebeck, the British High-Commissioner in Istanbul, wrote in September 1919 that “... it was impossible to rely on the allegations presented as facts [by the accusing party], and that to sustain definite charges against these persons before an Allied Tribunal would be very difficult.” In fact, none of the deportees was arrested on the basis of any evidence, and no dossier in a legal sense ever existed to incriminate any of the detainees. Show nested quote + Such a summary arrest of the high-ranked Turkish officials "presumed" guilty of alleged offenses is a blatant discrimination against a single category of enemies, i.e. the Muslim Turks, while the German, Austrian and Bulgarian war criminals were released and repatriated to their native countries before their peace treaties were ratified. The French government shared the opinion of General Franchet d'Espercy and the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Pichon addressed a note on March 5, 1919 to Lord Derby, the British Ambassador in Paris. expressing his government's disapproval for this action.
British Archives: PRO—F. 0. 371/4172/26160
Derby to Foreign Office, Telegram No: 454 March 5, 1919
Show nested quote +The British Government had condemned the massacres at the time. But in the absence of unequivocal evidence that the Ottoman Administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at that time, British Governments have not recognized those events as indications of genocide. Nor do we believe it is the business of Governments of today to review events of over 80 years ago, with a view to pronouncing them."
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, Foreign Office spokesperson, April 14, 1999 See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_to_prosecute_Ottoman_war_criminals#cite_ref-20http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/malta-details.htm ( MAIL TRAFFIC BETWEEN BRITISH OFFICIALS AND US ) There are other factors like Ottomans punished some of the officers for mass murdering of armenians and the confess of first Armenian leader Hovhannes Kajaznuni here http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/01/2279-we-betrayed-turkish-state.html and from the archives here: https://sites.google.com/site/armenians19152/DASHNAGTZOUTIUN.pdf?attredirects=0 (This manifest was banned in Armenia) (pages 31- 32 kill me every time) Page 28 introduction from John Roy Carlson All of these reports are can be followed within British archives yet world media is solely focused on dramatic testimonies and how Kim Kardashian family survived. This is still propaganda in a harmful way to its own cause, raising numbers every year, dramatically fantasizing it and pledging hatred add nothing to memory of fallen innocent armenian lives. Most of the Armenians today never read these archives but hate Turkey without a doubt. God knows if Ottoman officials were so smart that they left no papers behind to prove it, or there were no intentions for such crime yet their officers acted vengefully HOWEVER, there will be no recognition from Turkey long as it exists, all the killers are dead, Ottoman Empire no longer exists. There is no reason for Turkey to take that claim. Official recognition is a huge game-changer that would change many things for Turkey. On the other hand Armenians today can sue Turkish government and take their prosperity back from the state, current government returned many lands to back to their Armenian owners. It would be great if government build an Armenian monument within Turkey, that is my personal opinion on the issue. Lets leave this aside and keep up todays conflict. Russia has great influence on both Armenians and Azeris, how come it cant stop current conflict? On April 09 2016 14:21 lastpuritan wrote:Most of the "talat pasha telegrams" are proven to be fake internationally. This was the first blow to Armenian cause years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memoirs_of_Naim_BeyThe ottoman empire had yearbooks in which all the government officials were included. Examination of these yearbooks has demonstrated that there was no official named naim bey in aleppo during the years in question." - kamuran gurun, the armenian file, p.238 There is no single evidence on NAIM BEY ever lived except that book. "Ebensowenig entsinne ich mich des Namens Naim Bey[...]Ich stelle ergebenst anheim, auch Schwester Beatrice Rohner um eine Äusserung zu bitten. Sie hat mit den Verschickungskommissaren wohl mehrfach direkt zu verhandeln gehabt. Eyub Bey kennt sie persönlich. Ob sie auch Naim Bey kennt, oder Abdul Ahad Nuri Bey, kann ich nicht sagen. Jedenfalls wird ihre Äusserung von Wert sein. Auch Konsul Hoffmann derzeit bei der Paßstelle des Auswärtigen Amtes, Behrenstrasse 21 wird möglicherweise ein begründetes Urteil abzugeben in der Lage sein" Further evidence confirms they are fake: Klaus Kreiser: Kleines Türkei-Lexikon. Münih 1996, Talat-Paşa-Telegramme Guenter Lewy The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide, Salt Lake City 2005, S. 73 Christopher J. Walker World War I and the Armenian Genocide, The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times, New York 1997, S. 247 Erik-Jan Zürcher Turkey: A Modern History, Londra 2004, S.115/116 The Armenian side has tried to demonstrate this involvement, but some of the documents it has produced (the so-called Andonian papers) have been shown to be forgeries. Here is the page 115: https://books.google.de/books?id=RInzgxRX5uEC&pg=PA115&dq=zürcher turkey andonian&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
1. I´m not a historian, but as much as I get it, most historians seem to agree on that topic and call it a genocide.
That leads me to:
2. The German Bundestag did not decide, if it is a genocide. They only decided to call it what most historians agree upon AND by doing that, they also emphasized that Germany was partly responsible for the genocide by not stepping in.
3. I still don´t get your connection to Dresden and atomic bombs or a "solution". Maybe I´m just dumb.
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Zurich15352 Posts
There is no point in arguing with lastpuritan on anything Turkey. Or in general, with insertgenocide-deniers. Since their motivation is idiological/nationalistic they are not accessible to reason and there simply is no rational debate to be had.
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Again, there is NO respond to what I linked a post ago with archive numbers. You just don't care the other side coin and that's about it.
When you say most historians, I can promise you thousands of historians with MA claim there weren't even mass killings. Or you can find me thousands of history books from your historians that says ZERO about Turkish deaths on Anatolia and Balkans, were they systematical ethnic cleansing, or genocide? 1.5 million Armenians they say, right? Ottomans lost 5 millions of its citizens, how do you think they died? OR who will accept a Turkish genocide? God knows, you don't! Thanks to your "most of the historians." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/lies-damn-lies-and-armeni_b_211408.html
Turkey, Armenia, Germany, US, France, GB, Russia and other involved countries should send their objective historians to investigate Turkish and Armenian archives. Turkey for years, invites them to do so. NONE accepted. Same as your desire to read the links I posted. They don't care.
I'm not saying there isn't a crime, I'm saying it's not genocide until proven. And IF the genocide is real, Germany can't evade its role by saying "oh sorry, we didn't step in because we were nazis." Claim is, Germany was the brain of the operations and helped Turks to destroy the Armenians, later on helped Ottoman officials to flee etc etc.
One time Allied forces investigated the issue, GB courts, US investigators, they said there's no evidence but great deal of propaganda. You know the power of the propaganda in those times, right? However, please, I kindly ask all of you to read the posts I put in spoiler. Don't change your mind, don't ever read about it again and call me denier as if it's a crime, but read it. See why generations after generations Turks are saying that wasn't genocide. It's a country with 80 millions of population and I had a chance to meet leftists, rightists, liberals, educated and uneducated people, for example most of the liberal Turks accept ethnic cleansing of Kurds in Dersim area, but not the genocide? Are they all nuts? All patriotic people?
"Yeah, suck it erdogan! Now you'll learn how not to fuck with EU!"
Tell me that wasn't the real motive.
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And Elizar,
I wonder why Germany doesn't recognize US involvement in the murder of hundreds of thousands people in Indonesia in 1965 and pass a solution? Or Bangladesh genocide? Or Rwanda? Right here, right now, out of a hat? Spanish killed millions of people in America. It served only one purpose, and it is still "massacre". Or you say dropping an atomic bomb carries no goal to destroy some people! Will you say now US government of that time never aimed to cleanse Japs since only 2 towns were bombed but Ottomans did for Armenians? How will you prove that? You will of course say there was no intent to kill other Japs and no official order by the government. Same goes for Ottomans as well, no official order, and Armenians in Western Turkey left untouched. Dresden bombing to me, was a clear act to destroy citizens, why not Germany recognizing it as a genocide, again?
Who cares the numbers, millions of dead Turks, thousands of Iraqis, Aztek people, they all died because of some "massacres" but no genocides for sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_Massacre This is not genocide because numbers are small? It is unbelievable, just google recognized genocides and see.
It is the Western world who killed millions of people throughout the history,medieval times, modern times, more than the Turks, Nazi Germany, ISIS or any other evil state has ever murdered! But I see only Nazi Germany, Soviets, Ottomans, Africans, Iraq to blame. (all allied enemies what a surprise!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll Where are you guys? Where are the recognitions or solutions? History is written by the victors, and we read it ha? HUGE PILE OF BS.
Bringing dirty-old bloody world to the table adds nothing to cause. Leave that "we need to condemn it so that it won't happen again pollyanna mind setting" it's a hoax. We have a refugee problem, we need a solution to that.
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Most of the links you posted are from personal blogs of genocide deniers, some who appear to be using the geocities format for their website. And investigating the records won’t prove anything since Turkey controls the content of those records and what the historians would have access too.
Finally, you don’t control the standard of proof required to prove a genocide took place. Or the standard of evidence. Nor is the required to dispute every random blog on the internet that claims it didn’t happen.
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On June 03 2016 01:37 Plansix wrote:
Most of the links you posted are from personal blogs of genocide deniers, some who appear to be using the geocities format for their website. And investigating the records won’t prove anything since Turkey controls the content of those records and what the historians would have access too.
Finally, you don’t control the standard of proof required to prove a genocide took place. Or the standard of evidence. Nor is the required to dispute every random blog on the internet that claims it didn’t happen.
YES with archive numbers on them, who will visit British archives to verify them, you or me?
If investigating records won't satisfy you, keep on listening Kardashian drama, that sells!
You don't hold the proof that it happened, I have the proof of US investigators verdict on the case. If you got anything aside from dramatic testimonies or fake telegrams of a fictional jerk called Talat Pasha who never lived, prove. I'm open to debate.
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If you cite evidence, you can at least provide a copy of the original document or a link to the record holder, not some unverified 3rd party who could have transposed the number, omitted any number of details or just be full of shit. The fact that you can’t even be bothered to copy and paste the numbers into a post so people have some idea of what you are talking about says a lot about the way you are framing this argument. Throwing a bunch of blog posts that you claim to be accurate doesn’t prove anything.
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I havent followed the armenian genocide discussion much, but here's is one point I didnt see so far in this discussion: The german parliament officially recognized the armenian genocide because (not saying it is the only reason) in the process they officially acknowlegded the large involvement of germans in said genocide.
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On June 03 2016 00:19 zatic wrote:
There is no point in arguing with lastpuritan on anything Turkey. Or in general, with insertgenocide-deniers. Since their motivation is idiological/nationalistic they are not accessible to reason and there simply is no rational debate to be had.
Ok, now I get what you mean 
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Doesn't matter anyway, every few years some country recognises the genocide - Turkey gets angry. Who cares?
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On June 03 2016 01:52 Plansix wrote:
If you cite evidence, you can at least provide a copy of the original document or a link to the record holder, not some unverified 3rd party who could have transposed the number, omitted any number of details or just be full of shit. The fact that you can’t even be bothered to copy and paste the numbers into a post so people have some idea of what you are talking about says a lot about the way you are framing this argument. Throwing a bunch of blog posts that you claim to be accurate doesn’t prove anything.
Yeah that's the second time you're saying this. What's your proof? It feels like a dead end here, you'll call my ground weak, I'll claim you're groundless. The politicians moved on already. Germany declared it is no longer allied to Turkey as before and evaded its part on the so called genocide. Let's how it will play on refugee crisis.
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With any luck, Iran will continue on the path to liberalization and then this charade with Turkey can end.
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On June 03 2016 03:19 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 01:52 Plansix wrote:
If you cite evidence, you can at least provide a copy of the original document or a link to the record holder, not some unverified 3rd party who could have transposed the number, omitted any number of details or just be full of shit. The fact that you can’t even be bothered to copy and paste the numbers into a post so people have some idea of what you are talking about says a lot about the way you are framing this argument. Throwing a bunch of blog posts that you claim to be accurate doesn’t prove anything. Yeah that's the second time you're saying this. What's your proof? It feels like a dead end here, you'll call my ground weak, I'll claim you're groundless. The politicians moved on already. Germany declared it is no longer allied to Turkey as before and evaded its part on the so called genocide. Let's how it will play on refugee crisis.
Right, so you haven’t proven anything and Germany and the US government both say it happened. So we have the word of you, some random guy on the internet against the findings of two sovereign nation’s collective governments.
Unless you are demanding that I prove it, which isn’t going to happen. That is also not how discussions work. You can’t go around saying “do you have any evidence to back up that claim?” to put people on the defensive forever and then declare victory once they get tired of dealing with you. That tactic has been played out.
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On June 02 2016 23:30 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 23:14 Simberto wrote:On June 02 2016 23:09 lastpuritan wrote:
Maybe it's not about balls but personal call. Would it make any difference to Turkey part by any measure, oh Merkel wasn't there so there's nothing to worry about ha?
Context is obvious. This solution didn't pass last year, or this year in April, or the last 100 years but at one specific time, when Germany felt helpless in its foreign policy.
Crime is a crime if you really care human lives. Dropping tons of bombs or atomic bombs needs their solution as well. But Germany has no power or courage to create those solutions as it seems. As if this "solution" is something worthy but a tool to annoy turks. Maybe i am stupid, or it is because english is not my first language, but it appears to me that you imply some sort of knowledge of what you are talking about in your post. At least to me, the context is not obvious. Would you mind clearly stating what you want to say? What is this "solution" to bombs dropped 60+ years ago that you are talking about? What is this solution to genocide that happened a century ago? Bombs were real, but Allied claims of genocide are groundless. Mass killings + crime against humanity = yes. Genocide = no. This has been confirmed by US government of that time and GB court said no evidence and freed ottoman officials.I wonder how many of people here spared their time to read some history, not newspaper history though. I'm openly saying, this was a demonstration of using democracy as a tool to shape history AND using history to gain upper hand against Turkey. Because there is nothing Germany can do as a "solution" if there was they waited 100 years for that that's almost as big as the crime itself. So why Germany is not producing a solution about that atomic bomb or Dresden bombing, maybe US will change its mind on Ukraine and come to Merkel's point, that may work. Here are my other posts about genocide on this forum, with some history in it. + Show Spoiler +On April 09 2016 11:06 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 10:11 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 23:25 lastpuritan wrote:On April 08 2016 15:02 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 12:41 lastpuritan wrote:If you are so interested in civilian casualties of WW1 and what caused it, why don't you be equal to every part of the Ottoman society? Most of the historians of previous era (including armenian ones) claim the number of the armenians deaths are 300.000 to 750.000. Stop lying to yourself. If there is a genocidal act, it doesn't matter if it was 300.000 or 1.5 millions. Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.
If looked at without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population — approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million. Among the 5 million, 771,844 were military casualties killed in action and other causes.The military only covers 15% of the total casualties. The main question is what happened to 85% (spread over all citizens) of the casualties, which is more but not less than 4,000,000 during WW1. From 1821 to 1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Turks were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease. Genocide was not a crime until the year 1948. That basically means old world fancied the idea of mass murdering and took it as a fair-game. But of course, nobody will give a damn about Assyrians, Greeks or Turks who lost their lives 2 or 3 or 10 times more than Armenians before and after the Great War, because they are not bringing it up and dramatizing it every year like it happened yesterday. Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. Total number of civilian deaths of non-allied countries would blew your mind, who killed them, SOLDIERS. I don't care which soldier, greek or turk, SOLDIERS. And you seem to pick only Armenians out of the huge list. Why is that? Civilian causalities in a war are not genocide, as a genocide is a targeted elimination of a group based on race or religion. And where did you get that 500000 or less list of casualties for Armenians? the lowest source from somewhere any where other than Turkey puts it at 800 thousand. And war time casualties are not the same thing as genocide at all, no matter how much genocide apologists try to pretend it is. So you are telling me allied forces (mostly greek ) was not targeting cleansing of turkic people out of Aegean region? And please, show me one single official paper signed by Ottoman officials orders genocide of Armenians. There is none. PERIOD. However, that does not erase the fact that some of the Ottoman officers and kurdish tribes commit genocidal acts towards thousands of innocent armenian people. Don't get me wrong. And also the armenian milita who burnt down turkish villages, famous with rape, inpaling, mass murder of woman, children and elder people, you can't erase that too. There are even memories of Russian soldiers who witnessed this brutal butchery. Puppet amazes puppeteer. You can't read history with emotions or motivations. Every truth has two sides. You want official doccuments ordering ethnic cleansing, here you go www.genocide-museum.am. The continuing denial of the genocide from turkey continues to produce hostility and leading to unite people under hatred and fear. There is only one truth to this story, and one side denying what they did. I'm glad this conflict is slowing down, but people in here denying the genocide are just as awful as Holocaust deniers. Nope, there is only a country, which has been insignificant throughout its history, trying to make something out of itself and have a place in the world by dramatizing a tragedy which affected not just Armenians, but all who lived in Ottoman lands throughout the WWI. Nobody talks about hundreds of thousands of people who perished and were driven away from their home in the Balkans by the Russians, Bulgarians and Greeks in the 19th century. Or the people who the Greek army crammed into a mosque and burned it down while they were inside during the WWI. Or the rapes. Or the killings. Because a Turk's life isn't worth anything compared to the rest I suppose. Noone would have cared about Srebrenica if it wasn't followed closely by media. Take the genocide stuff out and Armenia has nothing to live for. They are at best a leftover satellite state from the Soviets, plagued by a weak economy and overall stagnancy. The fact that they distort the history and exploit the suffering of their own people for political gains is disgusting. On a sidenote, I have no idea how this topic became to be about the so-called Armenian Genocide. On April 09 2016 14:06 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 11:27 Salazarz wrote:On April 09 2016 11:06 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2016 10:11 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 23:25 lastpuritan wrote:On April 08 2016 15:02 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 12:41 lastpuritan wrote:If you are so interested in civilian casualties of WW1 and what caused it, why don't you be equal to every part of the Ottoman society? Most of the historians of previous era (including armenian ones) claim the number of the armenians deaths are 300.000 to 750.000. Stop lying to yourself. If there is a genocidal act, it doesn't matter if it was 300.000 or 1.5 millions. Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.
If looked at without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population — approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million. Among the 5 million, 771,844 were military casualties killed in action and other causes.The military only covers 15% of the total casualties. The main question is what happened to 85% (spread over all citizens) of the casualties, which is more but not less than 4,000,000 during WW1. From 1821 to 1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Turks were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease. Genocide was not a crime until the year 1948. That basically means old world fancied the idea of mass murdering and took it as a fair-game. But of course, nobody will give a damn about Assyrians, Greeks or Turks who lost their lives 2 or 3 or 10 times more than Armenians before and after the Great War, because they are not bringing it up and dramatizing it every year like it happened yesterday. Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. Total number of civilian deaths of non-allied countries would blew your mind, who killed them, SOLDIERS. I don't care which soldier, greek or turk, SOLDIERS. And you seem to pick only Armenians out of the huge list. Why is that? Civilian causalities in a war are not genocide, as a genocide is a targeted elimination of a group based on race or religion. And where did you get that 500000 or less list of casualties for Armenians? the lowest source from somewhere any where other than Turkey puts it at 800 thousand. And war time casualties are not the same thing as genocide at all, no matter how much genocide apologists try to pretend it is. So you are telling me allied forces (mostly greek ) was not targeting cleansing of turkic people out of Aegean region? And please, show me one single official paper signed by Ottoman officials orders genocide of Armenians. There is none. PERIOD. However, that does not erase the fact that some of the Ottoman officers and kurdish tribes commit genocidal acts towards thousands of innocent armenian people. Don't get me wrong. And also the armenian milita who burnt down turkish villages, famous with rape, inpaling, mass murder of woman, children and elder people, you can't erase that too. There are even memories of Russian soldiers who witnessed this brutal butchery. Puppet amazes puppeteer. You can't read history with emotions or motivations. Every truth has two sides. You want official doccuments ordering ethnic cleansing, here you go www.genocide-museum.am. The continuing denial of the genocide from turkey continues to produce hostility and leading to unite people under hatred and fear. There is only one truth to this story, and one side denying what they did. I'm glad this conflict is slowing down, but people in here denying the genocide are just as awful as Holocaust deniers. Nope, there is only a country, which has been insignificant throughout its history, trying to make something out of itself and have a place in the world by dramatizing a tragedy which affected not just Armenians, but all who lived in Ottoman lands throughout the WWI. Nobody talks about hundreds of thousands of people who perished and were driven away from their home in the Balkans by the Russians, Bulgarians and Greeks in the 19th century. Or the people who the Greek army crammed into a mosque and burned it down while they were inside during the WWI. Or the rapes. Or the killings. Because a Turk's life isn't worth anything compared to the rest I suppose. Noone would have cared about Srebrenica if it wasn't followed closely by media. Take the genocide stuff out and Armenia has nothing to live for. They are at best a leftover satellite state from the Soviets, plagued by a weak economy and overall stagnancy. The fact that they distort the history and exploit the suffering of their own people for political gains is disgusting. On a sidenote, I have no idea how this topic became to be about the so-called Armenian Genocide. Look, lots of people died during WW1, in every country not just ex-Ottoman Empire. War is terrible, everyone knows that -- and all the parties involved are at least somewhat accepting of it. There are plenty of monuments and museums dedicated to Greeks, Buglarians, Tatars, Turks, you name it who died during the atrocities of WW1. It's different for Armenians because they were specifically targetted by their own government and the lack of 'documents' pertaining to it doesn't disprove the fact that a wide-scale 'cleansing' of Armenians happened, it merely goes to show just how unwilling to admit it are the Turks, which makes it all the worse. Armenia wasn't 'insignificant' throughout history, it wasn't even a country throughout history because it was occupied by Ottomans for centuries; but instead of recognizing the past tragedies in their history, thanks to people like you so many just brush them off as attention seekers or something stupid like that. It's the same reason people still hate Japan all over Asia, just man the fuck up and admit your past leaders screwed up, it doesn't make you a lesser man or something, but no, they would rather glorify their past retarded imperialist ambitions and pretend it was all roses and butterflies. Like, it's literally the same as trying to defend Hitler because you know, the UK bombed plenty of civilians in Germany and Soviets weren't all that nice when they drove to Berlin and stuff. Doesn't work that way. "Specifically targetted by their own government" does not fully fit for the things happened there, that's the problem. When you claim there was an intention to destroy armenian race entirely, it is questionable why and how the Armenians who lived in Western Turkey survived, or why and how some of the deportations were successfully completed without a major loss of armenian lives, could not they kill all of them when they were on the road or when they first reached Ottoman Syria? Objectively speaking, there is no final evidence to link Ottoman government with this crime. This is why it differs from Hitler's Germany and why world does not take any action against Turkey. Hitler systematically tried to erase a race whilst Ottomans officially decided to deport Armenians who lived in Southern Turkey - under affect of Caucasus Campaign of Russians and Armenian revolt. Then what happened? Many of the turkish soldiers eye-witnessed mass murdering of armenian civilians by some of the mid-rank Turkish officers and Kurdish tribes. Armenians were the smallest minority in Southern Turkey but they wanted to grab huge lands from Kurdish tribes, todays Kurdistan. Most of the historians know majority of the mass murderings are done by Kurdish tribes and there is even a claim that those Kurdish officers promised them land in return of this favor. [ Ocalan - founder of the PKK - once stated Armenians are the real enemies of Kurds 3 years ago during the time when peace talks recently started with the Turks] However, eye witnessing low-rank soldier report is said to be perished until deport is done. [see the possible dmg to Kurdish - US relations if debated openly] Propaganda machine was working crazy back in those times, Armenian milita leaders made good propaganda out of this deports and the first number raising thing started harshly. Ottoman officials desperately tried to counter propaganda but it was off the hook. There were investigators all around the Anatolia, leading a court held in Malta. British were occupying Ottoman capital, they dig into archives and found no evidence. Further they demanded evidence from United States (who had officials in Turkey to investigate such claims) but US couldnt help them either. This is WHY todays UK doesnt call it genocide, still. They eventually released all the Ottoman officials. See how France and some Brits objected these courts at that time: Show nested quote +Admiral Webb, for instance, the Acting British High-Commissioner, wrote in March 1919 “... question of evidence in regard to massacres will be extremely difficult.” French authorities were against those arrests and the deportations which they characterized as “political measures.” Admiral de Roebeck, the British High-Commissioner in Istanbul, wrote in September 1919 that “... it was impossible to rely on the allegations presented as facts [by the accusing party], and that to sustain definite charges against these persons before an Allied Tribunal would be very difficult.” In fact, none of the deportees was arrested on the basis of any evidence, and no dossier in a legal sense ever existed to incriminate any of the detainees. Show nested quote + Such a summary arrest of the high-ranked Turkish officials "presumed" guilty of alleged offenses is a blatant discrimination against a single category of enemies, i.e. the Muslim Turks, while the German, Austrian and Bulgarian war criminals were released and repatriated to their native countries before their peace treaties were ratified. The French government shared the opinion of General Franchet d'Espercy and the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Pichon addressed a note on March 5, 1919 to Lord Derby, the British Ambassador in Paris. expressing his government's disapproval for this action.
British Archives: PRO—F. 0. 371/4172/26160
Derby to Foreign Office, Telegram No: 454 March 5, 1919
Show nested quote +The British Government had condemned the massacres at the time. But in the absence of unequivocal evidence that the Ottoman Administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at that time, British Governments have not recognized those events as indications of genocide. Nor do we believe it is the business of Governments of today to review events of over 80 years ago, with a view to pronouncing them."
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, Foreign Office spokesperson, April 14, 1999 See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_to_prosecute_Ottoman_war_criminals#cite_ref-20http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/malta-details.htm ( MAIL TRAFFIC BETWEEN BRITISH OFFICIALS AND US ) There are other factors like Ottomans punished some of the officers for mass murdering of armenians and the confess of first Armenian leader Hovhannes Kajaznuni here http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/01/2279-we-betrayed-turkish-state.html and from the archives here: https://sites.google.com/site/armenians19152/DASHNAGTZOUTIUN.pdf?attredirects=0 (This manifest was banned in Armenia) (pages 31- 32 kill me every time) Page 28 introduction from John Roy Carlson All of these reports are can be followed within British archives yet world media is solely focused on dramatic testimonies and how Kim Kardashian family survived. This is still propaganda in a harmful way to its own cause, raising numbers every year, dramatically fantasizing it and pledging hatred add nothing to memory of fallen innocent armenian lives. Most of the Armenians today never read these archives but hate Turkey without a doubt. God knows if Ottoman officials were so smart that they left no papers behind to prove it, or there were no intentions for such crime yet their officers acted vengefully HOWEVER, there will be no recognition from Turkey long as it exists, all the killers are dead, Ottoman Empire no longer exists. There is no reason for Turkey to take that claim. Official recognition is a huge game-changer that would change many things for Turkey. On the other hand Armenians today can sue Turkish government and take their prosperity back from the state, current government returned many lands to back to their Armenian owners. It would be great if government build an Armenian monument within Turkey, that is my personal opinion on the issue. Lets leave this aside and keep up todays conflict. Russia has great influence on both Armenians and Azeris, how come it cant stop current conflict? On April 09 2016 14:21 lastpuritan wrote:Most of the "talat pasha telegrams" are proven to be fake internationally. This was the first blow to Armenian cause years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memoirs_of_Naim_BeyThe ottoman empire had yearbooks in which all the government officials were included. Examination of these yearbooks has demonstrated that there was no official named naim bey in aleppo during the years in question." - kamuran gurun, the armenian file, p.238 There is no single evidence on NAIM BEY ever lived except that book. "Ebensowenig entsinne ich mich des Namens Naim Bey[...]Ich stelle ergebenst anheim, auch Schwester Beatrice Rohner um eine Äusserung zu bitten. Sie hat mit den Verschickungskommissaren wohl mehrfach direkt zu verhandeln gehabt. Eyub Bey kennt sie persönlich. Ob sie auch Naim Bey kennt, oder Abdul Ahad Nuri Bey, kann ich nicht sagen. Jedenfalls wird ihre Äusserung von Wert sein. Auch Konsul Hoffmann derzeit bei der Paßstelle des Auswärtigen Amtes, Behrenstrasse 21 wird möglicherweise ein begründetes Urteil abzugeben in der Lage sein" Further evidence confirms they are fake: Klaus Kreiser: Kleines Türkei-Lexikon. Münih 1996, Talat-Paşa-Telegramme Guenter Lewy The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide, Salt Lake City 2005, S. 73 Christopher J. Walker World War I and the Armenian Genocide, The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times, New York 1997, S. 247 Erik-Jan Zürcher Turkey: A Modern History, Londra 2004, S.115/116 The Armenian side has tried to demonstrate this involvement, but some of the documents it has produced (the so-called Andonian papers) have been shown to be forgeries. Here is the page 115: https://books.google.de/books?id=RInzgxRX5uEC&pg=PA115&dq=zürcher turkey andonian&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
You can't compare Dresden and Hiroshima with actual genocide.
By post 1945 standards, Dresden and Hiroshima were war crimes, but not genocide. Genocide doesn't mean targeting civilian, it means exterminating a people because of its ethnicity.
So say, the holocaust was clearly a genocide (the nazis wanted to kill all the jew - geno-cide) while the american never wanted to kill all the Japanese.
Historians are overwhelmingly saying that the Armenians were exterminated, and that the Turks were on an agenda to just wipe that people out of the earth.
You can deny it and quote some lousy blog. I have armenian friends, they would spit on your posts. There will always be people to deny the truth, there are Holocaust negationists, climate change deniers, people who say that nothing like a genocide happened in Rwanda. Unfortunately facts and history are not something you can change by just yelling everywhere your biaised version of what happened.
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On June 03 2016 03:19 lastpuritan wrote:Germany declared it is no longer allied to Turkey as before and evaded its part on the so called genocide. Let's how it will play on refugee crisis.
What? And What????
Germany did not declare anything you state about dropping their alliance to Turkey. And it certainly did not evade "its part on the so called genocide". You´re flat out lying.
Now I get what the others meant by talking to you is a waste of time ...
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On June 03 2016 03:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 03:19 lastpuritan wrote:On June 03 2016 01:52 Plansix wrote:
If you cite evidence, you can at least provide a copy of the original document or a link to the record holder, not some unverified 3rd party who could have transposed the number, omitted any number of details or just be full of shit. The fact that you can’t even be bothered to copy and paste the numbers into a post so people have some idea of what you are talking about says a lot about the way you are framing this argument. Throwing a bunch of blog posts that you claim to be accurate doesn’t prove anything. Yeah that's the second time you're saying this. What's your proof? It feels like a dead end here, you'll call my ground weak, I'll claim you're groundless. The politicians moved on already. Germany declared it is no longer allied to Turkey as before and evaded its part on the so called genocide. Let's how it will play on refugee crisis. Right, so you haven’t proven anything and Germany and the US government both say it happened. So we have the word of you, some random guy on the internet against the findings of two sovereign nation’s collective governments. Unless you are demanding that I prove it, which isn’t going to happen. That is also not how discussions work. You can’t go around saying “do you have any evidence to back up that claim?” to put people on the defensive forever and then declare victory once they get tired of dealing with you. That tactic has been played out.
I'm not declaring anything. You can't prove the guilt but demand proof of innocence that's how it works right? Those telegrams are globally known to be true, it's not my fault if you don't know them till now. That's my source like it or hate it, I can't provide or find any other than those archive numbers. At least I'm putting some effort to discuss something while you are saying my government says it is genocide, so it's a genocide. And the first is globally known to be corrupt the latter is slapping Turkey after waiting 100 years.
On June 03 2016 03:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 23:30 lastpuritan wrote:On June 02 2016 23:14 Simberto wrote:On June 02 2016 23:09 lastpuritan wrote:
Maybe it's not about balls but personal call. Would it make any difference to Turkey part by any measure, oh Merkel wasn't there so there's nothing to worry about ha?
Context is obvious. This solution didn't pass last year, or this year in April, or the last 100 years but at one specific time, when Germany felt helpless in its foreign policy.
Crime is a crime if you really care human lives. Dropping tons of bombs or atomic bombs needs their solution as well. But Germany has no power or courage to create those solutions as it seems. As if this "solution" is something worthy but a tool to annoy turks. Maybe i am stupid, or it is because english is not my first language, but it appears to me that you imply some sort of knowledge of what you are talking about in your post. At least to me, the context is not obvious. Would you mind clearly stating what you want to say? What is this "solution" to bombs dropped 60+ years ago that you are talking about? What is this solution to genocide that happened a century ago? Bombs were real, but Allied claims of genocide are groundless. Mass killings + crime against humanity = yes. Genocide = no. This has been confirmed by US government of that time and GB court said no evidence and freed ottoman officials.I wonder how many of people here spared their time to read some history, not newspaper history though. I'm openly saying, this was a demonstration of using democracy as a tool to shape history AND using history to gain upper hand against Turkey. Because there is nothing Germany can do as a "solution" if there was they waited 100 years for that that's almost as big as the crime itself. So why Germany is not producing a solution about that atomic bomb or Dresden bombing, maybe US will change its mind on Ukraine and come to Merkel's point, that may work. Here are my other posts about genocide on this forum, with some history in it. + Show Spoiler +On April 09 2016 11:06 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 10:11 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 23:25 lastpuritan wrote:On April 08 2016 15:02 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 12:41 lastpuritan wrote:If you are so interested in civilian casualties of WW1 and what caused it, why don't you be equal to every part of the Ottoman society? Most of the historians of previous era (including armenian ones) claim the number of the armenians deaths are 300.000 to 750.000. Stop lying to yourself. If there is a genocidal act, it doesn't matter if it was 300.000 or 1.5 millions. Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.
If looked at without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population — approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million. Among the 5 million, 771,844 were military casualties killed in action and other causes.The military only covers 15% of the total casualties. The main question is what happened to 85% (spread over all citizens) of the casualties, which is more but not less than 4,000,000 during WW1. From 1821 to 1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Turks were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease. Genocide was not a crime until the year 1948. That basically means old world fancied the idea of mass murdering and took it as a fair-game. But of course, nobody will give a damn about Assyrians, Greeks or Turks who lost their lives 2 or 3 or 10 times more than Armenians before and after the Great War, because they are not bringing it up and dramatizing it every year like it happened yesterday. Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. Total number of civilian deaths of non-allied countries would blew your mind, who killed them, SOLDIERS. I don't care which soldier, greek or turk, SOLDIERS. And you seem to pick only Armenians out of the huge list. Why is that? Civilian causalities in a war are not genocide, as a genocide is a targeted elimination of a group based on race or religion. And where did you get that 500000 or less list of casualties for Armenians? the lowest source from somewhere any where other than Turkey puts it at 800 thousand. And war time casualties are not the same thing as genocide at all, no matter how much genocide apologists try to pretend it is. So you are telling me allied forces (mostly greek ) was not targeting cleansing of turkic people out of Aegean region? And please, show me one single official paper signed by Ottoman officials orders genocide of Armenians. There is none. PERIOD. However, that does not erase the fact that some of the Ottoman officers and kurdish tribes commit genocidal acts towards thousands of innocent armenian people. Don't get me wrong. And also the armenian milita who burnt down turkish villages, famous with rape, inpaling, mass murder of woman, children and elder people, you can't erase that too. There are even memories of Russian soldiers who witnessed this brutal butchery. Puppet amazes puppeteer. You can't read history with emotions or motivations. Every truth has two sides. You want official doccuments ordering ethnic cleansing, here you go www.genocide-museum.am. The continuing denial of the genocide from turkey continues to produce hostility and leading to unite people under hatred and fear. There is only one truth to this story, and one side denying what they did. I'm glad this conflict is slowing down, but people in here denying the genocide are just as awful as Holocaust deniers. Nope, there is only a country, which has been insignificant throughout its history, trying to make something out of itself and have a place in the world by dramatizing a tragedy which affected not just Armenians, but all who lived in Ottoman lands throughout the WWI. Nobody talks about hundreds of thousands of people who perished and were driven away from their home in the Balkans by the Russians, Bulgarians and Greeks in the 19th century. Or the people who the Greek army crammed into a mosque and burned it down while they were inside during the WWI. Or the rapes. Or the killings. Because a Turk's life isn't worth anything compared to the rest I suppose. Noone would have cared about Srebrenica if it wasn't followed closely by media. Take the genocide stuff out and Armenia has nothing to live for. They are at best a leftover satellite state from the Soviets, plagued by a weak economy and overall stagnancy. The fact that they distort the history and exploit the suffering of their own people for political gains is disgusting. On a sidenote, I have no idea how this topic became to be about the so-called Armenian Genocide. On April 09 2016 14:06 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 11:27 Salazarz wrote:On April 09 2016 11:06 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2016 10:11 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 23:25 lastpuritan wrote:On April 08 2016 15:02 Jaaaaasper wrote:On April 08 2016 12:41 lastpuritan wrote:If you are so interested in civilian casualties of WW1 and what caused it, why don't you be equal to every part of the Ottoman society? Most of the historians of previous era (including armenian ones) claim the number of the armenians deaths are 300.000 to 750.000. Stop lying to yourself. If there is a genocidal act, it doesn't matter if it was 300.000 or 1.5 millions. Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.
If looked at without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population — approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million. Among the 5 million, 771,844 were military casualties killed in action and other causes.The military only covers 15% of the total casualties. The main question is what happened to 85% (spread over all citizens) of the casualties, which is more but not less than 4,000,000 during WW1. From 1821 to 1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Turks were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease. Genocide was not a crime until the year 1948. That basically means old world fancied the idea of mass murdering and took it as a fair-game. But of course, nobody will give a damn about Assyrians, Greeks or Turks who lost their lives 2 or 3 or 10 times more than Armenians before and after the Great War, because they are not bringing it up and dramatizing it every year like it happened yesterday. Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. Total number of civilian deaths of non-allied countries would blew your mind, who killed them, SOLDIERS. I don't care which soldier, greek or turk, SOLDIERS. And you seem to pick only Armenians out of the huge list. Why is that? Civilian causalities in a war are not genocide, as a genocide is a targeted elimination of a group based on race or religion. And where did you get that 500000 or less list of casualties for Armenians? the lowest source from somewhere any where other than Turkey puts it at 800 thousand. And war time casualties are not the same thing as genocide at all, no matter how much genocide apologists try to pretend it is. So you are telling me allied forces (mostly greek ) was not targeting cleansing of turkic people out of Aegean region? And please, show me one single official paper signed by Ottoman officials orders genocide of Armenians. There is none. PERIOD. However, that does not erase the fact that some of the Ottoman officers and kurdish tribes commit genocidal acts towards thousands of innocent armenian people. Don't get me wrong. And also the armenian milita who burnt down turkish villages, famous with rape, inpaling, mass murder of woman, children and elder people, you can't erase that too. There are even memories of Russian soldiers who witnessed this brutal butchery. Puppet amazes puppeteer. You can't read history with emotions or motivations. Every truth has two sides. You want official doccuments ordering ethnic cleansing, here you go www.genocide-museum.am. The continuing denial of the genocide from turkey continues to produce hostility and leading to unite people under hatred and fear. There is only one truth to this story, and one side denying what they did. I'm glad this conflict is slowing down, but people in here denying the genocide are just as awful as Holocaust deniers. Nope, there is only a country, which has been insignificant throughout its history, trying to make something out of itself and have a place in the world by dramatizing a tragedy which affected not just Armenians, but all who lived in Ottoman lands throughout the WWI. Nobody talks about hundreds of thousands of people who perished and were driven away from their home in the Balkans by the Russians, Bulgarians and Greeks in the 19th century. Or the people who the Greek army crammed into a mosque and burned it down while they were inside during the WWI. Or the rapes. Or the killings. Because a Turk's life isn't worth anything compared to the rest I suppose. Noone would have cared about Srebrenica if it wasn't followed closely by media. Take the genocide stuff out and Armenia has nothing to live for. They are at best a leftover satellite state from the Soviets, plagued by a weak economy and overall stagnancy. The fact that they distort the history and exploit the suffering of their own people for political gains is disgusting. On a sidenote, I have no idea how this topic became to be about the so-called Armenian Genocide. Look, lots of people died during WW1, in every country not just ex-Ottoman Empire. War is terrible, everyone knows that -- and all the parties involved are at least somewhat accepting of it. There are plenty of monuments and museums dedicated to Greeks, Buglarians, Tatars, Turks, you name it who died during the atrocities of WW1. It's different for Armenians because they were specifically targetted by their own government and the lack of 'documents' pertaining to it doesn't disprove the fact that a wide-scale 'cleansing' of Armenians happened, it merely goes to show just how unwilling to admit it are the Turks, which makes it all the worse. Armenia wasn't 'insignificant' throughout history, it wasn't even a country throughout history because it was occupied by Ottomans for centuries; but instead of recognizing the past tragedies in their history, thanks to people like you so many just brush them off as attention seekers or something stupid like that. It's the same reason people still hate Japan all over Asia, just man the fuck up and admit your past leaders screwed up, it doesn't make you a lesser man or something, but no, they would rather glorify their past retarded imperialist ambitions and pretend it was all roses and butterflies. Like, it's literally the same as trying to defend Hitler because you know, the UK bombed plenty of civilians in Germany and Soviets weren't all that nice when they drove to Berlin and stuff. Doesn't work that way. "Specifically targetted by their own government" does not fully fit for the things happened there, that's the problem. When you claim there was an intention to destroy armenian race entirely, it is questionable why and how the Armenians who lived in Western Turkey survived, or why and how some of the deportations were successfully completed without a major loss of armenian lives, could not they kill all of them when they were on the road or when they first reached Ottoman Syria? Objectively speaking, there is no final evidence to link Ottoman government with this crime. This is why it differs from Hitler's Germany and why world does not take any action against Turkey. Hitler systematically tried to erase a race whilst Ottomans officially decided to deport Armenians who lived in Southern Turkey - under affect of Caucasus Campaign of Russians and Armenian revolt. Then what happened? Many of the turkish soldiers eye-witnessed mass murdering of armenian civilians by some of the mid-rank Turkish officers and Kurdish tribes. Armenians were the smallest minority in Southern Turkey but they wanted to grab huge lands from Kurdish tribes, todays Kurdistan. Most of the historians know majority of the mass murderings are done by Kurdish tribes and there is even a claim that those Kurdish officers promised them land in return of this favor. [ Ocalan - founder of the PKK - once stated Armenians are the real enemies of Kurds 3 years ago during the time when peace talks recently started with the Turks] However, eye witnessing low-rank soldier report is said to be perished until deport is done. [see the possible dmg to Kurdish - US relations if debated openly] Propaganda machine was working crazy back in those times, Armenian milita leaders made good propaganda out of this deports and the first number raising thing started harshly. Ottoman officials desperately tried to counter propaganda but it was off the hook. There were investigators all around the Anatolia, leading a court held in Malta. British were occupying Ottoman capital, they dig into archives and found no evidence. Further they demanded evidence from United States (who had officials in Turkey to investigate such claims) but US couldnt help them either. This is WHY todays UK doesnt call it genocide, still. They eventually released all the Ottoman officials. See how France and some Brits objected these courts at that time: Show nested quote +Admiral Webb, for instance, the Acting British High-Commissioner, wrote in March 1919 “... question of evidence in regard to massacres will be extremely difficult.” French authorities were against those arrests and the deportations which they characterized as “political measures.” Admiral de Roebeck, the British High-Commissioner in Istanbul, wrote in September 1919 that “... it was impossible to rely on the allegations presented as facts [by the accusing party], and that to sustain definite charges against these persons before an Allied Tribunal would be very difficult.” In fact, none of the deportees was arrested on the basis of any evidence, and no dossier in a legal sense ever existed to incriminate any of the detainees. Show nested quote + Such a summary arrest of the high-ranked Turkish officials "presumed" guilty of alleged offenses is a blatant discrimination against a single category of enemies, i.e. the Muslim Turks, while the German, Austrian and Bulgarian war criminals were released and repatriated to their native countries before their peace treaties were ratified. The French government shared the opinion of General Franchet d'Espercy and the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Pichon addressed a note on March 5, 1919 to Lord Derby, the British Ambassador in Paris. expressing his government's disapproval for this action.
British Archives: PRO—F. 0. 371/4172/26160
Derby to Foreign Office, Telegram No: 454 March 5, 1919
Show nested quote +The British Government had condemned the massacres at the time. But in the absence of unequivocal evidence that the Ottoman Administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at that time, British Governments have not recognized those events as indications of genocide. Nor do we believe it is the business of Governments of today to review events of over 80 years ago, with a view to pronouncing them."
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, Foreign Office spokesperson, April 14, 1999 See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_to_prosecute_Ottoman_war_criminals#cite_ref-20http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/malta-details.htm ( MAIL TRAFFIC BETWEEN BRITISH OFFICIALS AND US ) There are other factors like Ottomans punished some of the officers for mass murdering of armenians and the confess of first Armenian leader Hovhannes Kajaznuni here http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/01/2279-we-betrayed-turkish-state.html and from the archives here: https://sites.google.com/site/armenians19152/DASHNAGTZOUTIUN.pdf?attredirects=0 (This manifest was banned in Armenia) (pages 31- 32 kill me every time) Page 28 introduction from John Roy Carlson All of these reports are can be followed within British archives yet world media is solely focused on dramatic testimonies and how Kim Kardashian family survived. This is still propaganda in a harmful way to its own cause, raising numbers every year, dramatically fantasizing it and pledging hatred add nothing to memory of fallen innocent armenian lives. Most of the Armenians today never read these archives but hate Turkey without a doubt. God knows if Ottoman officials were so smart that they left no papers behind to prove it, or there were no intentions for such crime yet their officers acted vengefully HOWEVER, there will be no recognition from Turkey long as it exists, all the killers are dead, Ottoman Empire no longer exists. There is no reason for Turkey to take that claim. Official recognition is a huge game-changer that would change many things for Turkey. On the other hand Armenians today can sue Turkish government and take their prosperity back from the state, current government returned many lands to back to their Armenian owners. It would be great if government build an Armenian monument within Turkey, that is my personal opinion on the issue. Lets leave this aside and keep up todays conflict. Russia has great influence on both Armenians and Azeris, how come it cant stop current conflict? On April 09 2016 14:21 lastpuritan wrote:Most of the "talat pasha telegrams" are proven to be fake internationally. This was the first blow to Armenian cause years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Memoirs_of_Naim_BeyThe ottoman empire had yearbooks in which all the government officials were included. Examination of these yearbooks has demonstrated that there was no official named naim bey in aleppo during the years in question." - kamuran gurun, the armenian file, p.238 There is no single evidence on NAIM BEY ever lived except that book. "Ebensowenig entsinne ich mich des Namens Naim Bey[...]Ich stelle ergebenst anheim, auch Schwester Beatrice Rohner um eine Äusserung zu bitten. Sie hat mit den Verschickungskommissaren wohl mehrfach direkt zu verhandeln gehabt. Eyub Bey kennt sie persönlich. Ob sie auch Naim Bey kennt, oder Abdul Ahad Nuri Bey, kann ich nicht sagen. Jedenfalls wird ihre Äusserung von Wert sein. Auch Konsul Hoffmann derzeit bei der Paßstelle des Auswärtigen Amtes, Behrenstrasse 21 wird möglicherweise ein begründetes Urteil abzugeben in der Lage sein" Further evidence confirms they are fake: Klaus Kreiser: Kleines Türkei-Lexikon. Münih 1996, Talat-Paşa-Telegramme Guenter Lewy The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide, Salt Lake City 2005, S. 73 Christopher J. Walker World War I and the Armenian Genocide, The Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times, New York 1997, S. 247 Erik-Jan Zürcher Turkey: A Modern History, Londra 2004, S.115/116 The Armenian side has tried to demonstrate this involvement, but some of the documents it has produced (the so-called Andonian papers) have been shown to be forgeries. Here is the page 115: https://books.google.de/books?id=RInzgxRX5uEC&pg=PA115&dq=zürcher turkey andonian&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false You can't compare Dresden and Hiroshima with actual genocide. By post 1945 standards, Dresden and Hiroshima were war crimes, but not genocide. Genocide doesn't mean targeting civilian, it means exterminating a people because of its ethnicity. So say, the holocaust was clearly a genocide (the nazis wanted to kill all the jew - geno-cide) while the american never wanted to kill all the Japanese.
Historians are overwhelmingly saying that the Armenians were exterminated, and that the Turks were on an agenda to just wipe that people out of the earth. You can deny it and quote some lousy blog. I have armenian friends, they would spit on your posts. There will always be people to deny the truth, there are Holocaust negationists, climate change deniers, people who say that nothing like a genocide happened in Rwanda. Unfortunately facts and history are not something you can change by just yelling everywhere your biaised version of what happened.
Yes. Simple question. Why Ottoman officials did not kill or move Armenians in Western Turkey then?
On June 03 2016 03:38 Elizar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 03:19 lastpuritan wrote:Germany declared it is no longer allied to Turkey as before and evaded its part on the so called genocide. Let's how it will play on refugee crisis. What? And What???? Germany did not declare anything you state about dropping their alliance to Turkey. And it certainly did not evade "its part on the so called genocide". You´re flat out lying. Now I get what the others meant by talking to you is a waste of time ...
Oh tell me are you aware the fact that, if we believe Armenian claims:
1- Germans were aware of the genocide and took active roles planning it.
2- Germans helped Ottoman officials to flee in Germany after British courts, trying to protect them from avenging armenians.
3- German officers reported mass killings repeatedly. Some joined the mass killings and awarded!
Does today's paper have any of these or only saying "we knew but we didn't step in sorry  "
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There is also no requirement for anyone in this thread to prove to you that the Armenian genocide took place. You seem to be operating under the delusion that any discussion of the Armenian genocide and the German declaration today must involve people disputing your claims. And that they have to do it in the manner you prescribe and with evidence that you accept as creditable.
If you don’t believe something that is widely accepted, good for you. But yelling over and over that the moon landing didn’t happen doesn’t require everyone around you to prove that it did. You are not the plaintiff in a legal matter, you can’t win just because the other side doesn’t want to argue with you.
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never understand why wording for something decades ago is important, especially on something as normal as genocide. if a country didnt do anything horrible in its history, the country is probably just not important enough to be remembered.
i, for one, welcome turkey to the club of countries that killed a few millions in its past. pretty big club though, more or less everyone in it already.
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EPT
