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A Song of Ice and Fire - Page 36

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Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 04:23:30
September 08 2011 04:08 GMT
#701
I don't have anything original to say, so I will just say it differently.

+ Show Spoiler +
Well, finished adwd a week ago and I am still digesting it. Martin said that he wasn't planning on making Crows but then had to because of the time gap. I understand that. But I think he should have reevaluated Dragons and created the time gap after crows. The entire direction of the book pointed away from Westros when in fact, since it is book 5/7(?) it should be gathering towards Westeros. That was my biggest complaint.

I think the reason people don't like the first half of the book is because we have already been through that time in Crows. If Dragons had come out a year after Crows, then it is no problem. But six years and an HBO series later, we needed the time gap now. I honestly didn't care about any of the intrigue in Mereen. Didn't care about the made up problem of the Harpy. Didn't care about the pit fighters wanting to fight. Dany regressed from a kick ass dragon queen to a teenage girl. At the very end of Crows she says she has to learn how to rule, but Dragons spends hundreds of pages with Dany doing everything but. After Crows I would have been happy hearing about Dany next with her dragons grown and mastered, BBQ arm beside her, and the power of her army ready to launch on Westeros.

Some other random thoughts...

- I didn't care about Reek. He himself does nothing, he is just a pair of eyes for Martin, who decided that he needed to describe everything rather than let the reader fill it in. Maybe Reek gets better, but I don't care at this point.

- Needs more Sam.

- John dying sucks. The inability of anyone else on the wall to understand that wildings = wraiths if they don't come south sucks. I know the wall is made up of criminals, but it seems silly to have only one person thinking clearly.

- I'm not sure I buy that Ramsey's letter is fake. If Jon is really going to be AA, why do we need Stannis anymore? We just need his sword, and if John has it then things set up nicely for him.

- We needed another Bran chapter to show us just how powerful he will become.

- Needed more revelation about the intentions of the church in Kings Landing and what they want to do with their army of sparrows.

- Tyrion's chapters were a loss because of his circumstances. Again, he was travelling in the wrong direction.

I have lots more thoughts, but this is what comes to mind now. Like I said, nothing original.
ModeratorGodfather
Carras
Profile Joined August 2010
Argentina860 Posts
September 09 2011 00:21 GMT
#702
+ Show Spoiler +
Jon´d death sucks extremely hard becouse we all know that he´s not actually dead or gonna stay dead.. be it being revived by mel,living inside ghost or just not dying becouse he had armor ...
Starcraftplaylist
Profile Joined May 2011
194 Posts
September 09 2011 00:30 GMT
#703
On September 09 2011 09:21 Carras wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Jon´d death sucks extremely hard becouse we all know that he´s not actually dead or gonna stay dead.. be it being revived by mel,living inside ghost or just not dying becouse he had armor ...


Or remembering who to kill, joining the Others!
Sanctimonius
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom861 Posts
September 09 2011 00:44 GMT
#704
I would love it if Jon was just dead, if only to hear the collected howls of anguish from those who think he's coming back XD
You live the life you choose.
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
September 09 2011 00:49 GMT
#705
I have a sneaking suspicion that the dead ranger who led Bran north of the wall is Jon's uncle who was lost in a ranging back in book one.

As this mysterious character is undead, yet seems to have his own free will, maybe Jon can have the same autonomy -- if he is, in fact, dead.
KTY
Starcraftplaylist
Profile Joined May 2011
194 Posts
September 09 2011 00:54 GMT
#706
On September 09 2011 09:49 Xxio wrote:
I have a sneaking suspicion that the dead ranger who led Bran north of the wall is Jon's uncle who was lost in a ranging back in book one.

As this mysterious character is undead, yet seems to have his own free will, maybe Jon can have the same autonomy -- if he is, in fact, dead.


I was thinking of Benjen immediately when coldhands appeared. So I agree its definitely a possibility, he could even join up with his uncle finally.
Crazyeyes
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1342 Posts
September 09 2011 00:57 GMT
#707
I think that EVERYONE thinks that Coldhands is Benjen. I think that's the first thing everyone thought.

And for that reason, I think that Coldhands ISN'T Benjen. GRRM is fucking with us.

I too considered Jon becoming Coldjon, but I think I prefer him in human form. Whatever, I guess. Five more years and we'll see.
WeeEEeeEEEeeEEEeeeEEee!!
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
September 09 2011 00:58 GMT
#708
Recommend me books similar to Ice and Fire, please. Jinro you mentioned a reading list at Anaheim but I forgot to ask you what was on it : /
KTY
Crazyeyes
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1342 Posts
September 09 2011 01:01 GMT
#709
Earlier on in this thread (I think) people were suggesting Wheel of Time series if you liked this. I havn't read it and have no idea what its about, but I hear good things often.
WeeEEeeEEEeeEEEeeeEEee!!
Starcraftplaylist
Profile Joined May 2011
194 Posts
September 09 2011 01:07 GMT
#710
I didn't read WoT, but I heard its extremely uneven in quality, complicated even more by the death of the original author.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 01:14:56
September 09 2011 01:13 GMT
#711
Wheel of Time was good when I was in high school and the books were still coming out, but this is before I read Martin. Now if I try to go back and read the books, they... didn't age well for me. In the middle of the series Jordan basically gets lost in his own world. It is worth reading the first 6 in my opinion and maybe by then you will be sold on the rest. I might give them another go once the whole thing is finished.

I'm just starting book one of Steven Erikson's Malzan series, so I'll let you know how it turns out. Apparently it is close to ASOIAF style.

Some people will mention the Prince of Nothing trilogy, but I forced my way through those books and didn't finish the last 200 pages of book three. The first time I have ever really just stopped after investing so much in a series.

I liked the Earthsea novels by Ursula Le Guin, but it isn't quite the same as Martin. In the same vein the Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay was really good, but different.

Thomas Covenant is a fantasy classic that should be read by everybody in my opinion.
ModeratorGodfather
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
September 09 2011 01:15 GMT
#712
On September 08 2011 13:08 Manifesto7 wrote:
I don't have anything original to say, so I will just say it differently.

+ Show Spoiler +
Well, finished adwd a week ago and I am still digesting it. Martin said that he wasn't planning on making Crows but then had to because of the time gap. I understand that. But I think he should have reevaluated Dragons and created the time gap after crows. The entire direction of the book pointed away from Westros when in fact, since it is book 5/7(?) it should be gathering towards Westeros. That was my biggest complaint.

I think the reason people don't like the first half of the book is because we have already been through that time in Crows. If Dragons had come out a year after Crows, then it is no problem. But six years and an HBO series later, we needed the time gap now. I honestly didn't care about any of the intrigue in Mereen. Didn't care about the made up problem of the Harpy. Didn't care about the pit fighters wanting to fight. Dany regressed from a kick ass dragon queen to a teenage girl. At the very end of Crows she says she has to learn how to rule, but Dragons spends hundreds of pages with Dany doing everything but. After Crows I would have been happy hearing about Dany next with her dragons grown and mastered, BBQ arm beside her, and the power of her army ready to launch on Westeros.

Some other random thoughts...

- I didn't care about Reek. He himself does nothing, he is just a pair of eyes for Martin, who decided that he needed to describe everything rather than let the reader fill it in. Maybe Reek gets better, but I don't care at this point.

- Needs more Sam.

- John dying sucks. The inability of anyone else on the wall to understand that wildings = wraiths if they don't come south sucks. I know the wall is made up of criminals, but it seems silly to have only one person thinking clearly.

- I'm not sure I buy that Ramsey's letter is fake. If Jon is really going to be AA, why do we need Stannis anymore? We just need his sword, and if John has it then things set up nicely for him.

- We needed another Bran chapter to show us just how powerful he will become.

- Needed more revelation about the intentions of the church in Kings Landing and what they want to do with their army of sparrows.

- Tyrion's chapters were a loss because of his circumstances. Again, he was travelling in the wrong direction.

I have lots more thoughts, but this is what comes to mind now. Like I said, nothing original.




+ Show Spoiler +
Interesting. Most people seem to like the new Theon and hate Sam. =/. I at least, can't stand his constant complaining of being weak and fat.
I pretty much agree with everything else. The detail and world creation was amazing as usual, but Dany and Tyrion were pretty bad.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11607 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 01:27:00
September 09 2011 01:18 GMT
#713
On September 09 2011 10:13 Manifesto7 wrote:
Wheel of Time was good when I was in high school and the books were still coming out, but this is before I read Martin. Now if I try to go back and read the books, they... didn't age well for me. In the middle of the series Jordan basically gets lost in his own world. It is worth reading the first 6 in my opinion and maybe by then you will be sold on the rest. I might give them another go once the whole thing is finished.


To me it seems GRRM is starting to suffer from this based on the complaints and reviews. I've frequented a couple writing forums and the complaints are eerily similar regarding the later series from both authors.

But I really can't think of any series to recommend that is so brutal to its characters and yet is still a compelling story. Its a very strange and seems singularly unique. Its far easier to be brutal on your characters and simply have a story that people hate.
ModeratorWake me up when Trump's term is finished. Slava Ukraini.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27179 Posts
September 09 2011 01:37 GMT
#714
To me it seems GRRM is starting to suffer from this based on the complaints and reviews. I've frequented a couple writing forums and the complaints are eerily similar regarding the later series from both authors.


Yeah I almost mentioned that in my post, but I'm not quite sure it is the same. Jordan's series was like a chemical reaction that just kept expanding beyond belief. Martin still seems to have a focus as to where the story is going, he is just taking us there at a slower pace than he started with, which makes it feel like he is bogged down.
ModeratorGodfather
Carras
Profile Joined August 2010
Argentina860 Posts
September 09 2011 01:42 GMT
#715
+ Show Spoiler +
if coldhands was benjen bran would have recognized him..
BrownBear
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6894 Posts
September 09 2011 01:51 GMT
#716
Thoughts:

+ Show Spoiler +

I think Dany's inability to rule Mereen is probably indicative that she will not be the one on the Iron Throne in the end. I had originally thought she had the best chance of ending up on top, what with the three dragons, but now that she's proven herself basically incompetent at managing a city, my guess is she'll be going down some time within the next two books.

Aegon is basically Renly 2.0, in that he has a good idea about what a king is supposed to look and behave like, and has the charisma to make people follow him, but no idea how to actually win his kingdom. That definitely can't end well for him.

I really enjoyed the Melisandre chapter, also, hoping to hear more about Moqorro in the future. That dude's badass, and the combination of him+Victarion is going to be a fun one to follow.

I think there's a better chance Jon becomes Azor Ahai reborn than he gets warg'd into Ghost. Remember, there's already one Stark warg (and yes, Jon counts as a Stark as far as I'm concerned). I highly doubt there will be a second. I like whoever it was that said Mormont might have been warg'd into his raven, though. Hadn't thought of that before, it makes a lot of sense.

I'm curious as to who the King's Landing POVs will be now that Cersei is effectively done as a useful character, and Kevan is dead. I'm really hoping Varys. Please, please let it be Varys.

Speaking of Kings Landing, Frankengregor wtf. I'm actually very annoyed about that. Although, it is possible that Qyburn just managed to heal Gregor, at the cost of several of his higher brain functions like speaking.

My guess about Jaime is that he's fucked. He's developed about as far as he'll go as a character, and now that he's rejected Cersei and cleaned up the riverlands, there isn't much reason for him to continue to exist, except to go back and stand around Tommen all day. Plus, I hardly think he'll be as accepting of Frankengregor as the rest of the Lannisters are, so I would be very surprised if he makes it back to Kings Landing.

Stannis isn't dead, but he soon will be. He's been around for far too long, he clearly isn't going to win the throne, it's doubtful he even wants it anymore, and he pretty clearly isn't Azor Ahai reborn, so even though Ramsey was lying about Stannis being dead, I'm guessing Stannis isn't gonna win that fight when it eventually does happen.

Why was there 0 plot development with Oldtown? That was just starting to get interesting/off the ground at the end of AffC, and then it gets completely tossed in favor of more chapters about Dany and Daario fucking.

Overall, VASTLY superior to AffC. Not nearly as good as Storm of Swords, though, and it did get bogged down in itself a lot. I'm hoping Winds of Winter goes a lot quicker, and gets back to more head-choppin', cause there's far too many factions left standing to reach a peaceful solution.
SUNSFANNED
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27179 Posts
September 09 2011 02:18 GMT
#717
On September 09 2011 10:51 BrownBear wrote:
Thoughts:

+ Show Spoiler +

I think Dany's inability to rule Mereen is probably indicative that she will not be the one on the Iron Throne in the end. I had originally thought she had the best chance of ending up on top, what with the three dragons, but now that she's proven herself basically incompetent at managing a city, my guess is she'll be going down some time within the next two books.

Aegon is basically Renly 2.0, in that he has a good idea about what a king is supposed to look and behave like, and has the charisma to make people follow him, but no idea how to actually win his kingdom. That definitely can't end well for him.

I really enjoyed the Melisandre chapter, also, hoping to hear more about Moqorro in the future. That dude's badass, and the combination of him+Victarion is going to be a fun one to follow.

I think there's a better chance Jon becomes Azor Ahai reborn than he gets warg'd into Ghost. Remember, there's already one Stark warg (and yes, Jon counts as a Stark as far as I'm concerned). I highly doubt there will be a second. I like whoever it was that said Mormont might have been warg'd into his raven, though. Hadn't thought of that before, it makes a lot of sense.

I'm curious as to who the King's Landing POVs will be now that Cersei is effectively done as a useful character, and Kevan is dead. I'm really hoping Varys. Please, please let it be Varys.

Speaking of Kings Landing, Frankengregor wtf. I'm actually very annoyed about that. Although, it is possible that Qyburn just managed to heal Gregor, at the cost of several of his higher brain functions like speaking.

My guess about Jaime is that he's fucked. He's developed about as far as he'll go as a character, and now that he's rejected Cersei and cleaned up the riverlands, there isn't much reason for him to continue to exist, except to go back and stand around Tommen all day. Plus, I hardly think he'll be as accepting of Frankengregor as the rest of the Lannisters are, so I would be very surprised if he makes it back to Kings Landing.

Stannis isn't dead, but he soon will be. He's been around for far too long, he clearly isn't going to win the throne, it's doubtful he even wants it anymore, and he pretty clearly isn't Azor Ahai reborn, so even though Ramsey was lying about Stannis being dead, I'm guessing Stannis isn't gonna win that fight when it eventually does happen.

Why was there 0 plot development with Oldtown? That was just starting to get interesting/off the ground at the end of AffC, and then it gets completely tossed in favor of more chapters about Dany and Daario fucking.

Overall, VASTLY superior to AffC. Not nearly as good as Storm of Swords, though, and it did get bogged down in itself a lot. I'm hoping Winds of Winter goes a lot quicker, and gets back to more head-choppin', cause there's far too many factions left standing to reach a peaceful solution.


+ Show Spoiler +
A Game of Thrones is just the first book though, the series is a Song of Ice and Fire. By that I mean that the end game of the series to me isn't the iron throne. It is the war between man and the others. So when I read I don't feel like I have to figure out who is going to be the last one standing.
ModeratorGodfather
Crazyeyes
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1342 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-11 09:39:03
September 09 2011 04:30 GMT
#718
On September 09 2011 10:51 BrownBear wrote:
Thoughts:

+ Show Spoiler +


I think Dany's inability to rule Mereen is probably indicative that she will not be the one on the Iron Throne in the end. I had originally thought she had the best chance of ending up on top, what with the three dragons, but now that she's proven herself basically incompetent at managing a city, my guess is she'll be going down some time within the next two books.

I figured the whole point of this was for her to learn how to rule. And I think she learned something very valuble. She spent the entire time in Mereen trying to rule, but to be perfect. Shed as little blood as possible. Take hostages, but instead treat them as your children. Absolutely no concequences for anything.
Martin said that a good person isnt neccisarily a good ruler, and sometimes the best rulers are horrible people. I think Dany won't be fucking around anymore.


I think there's a better chance Jon becomes Azor Ahai reborn than he gets warg'd into Ghost. Remember, there's already one Stark warg (and yes, Jon counts as a Stark as far as I'm concerned). I highly doubt there will be a second. I like whoever it was that said Mormont might have been warg'd into his raven, though. Hadn't thought of that before, it makes a lot of sense.

What? Jon is a warg. There is no questioning it. So is Arya. Sansa and Robb likely were, which means that Sansa is probably a shapechanger herself. She hasn't really been around any animals to prove or disprove this.


I'm curious as to who the King's Landing POVs will be now that Cersei is effectively done as a useful character, and Kevan is dead. I'm really hoping Varys. Please, please let it be Varys.

I'm pretty sure Cersei will now be back with a vengeance. Robert Strong will save her.


My guess about Jaime is that he's fucked. He's developed about as far as he'll go as a character, and now that he's rejected Cersei and cleaned up the riverlands, there isn't much reason for him to continue to exist, except to go back and stand around Tommen all day. Plus, I hardly think he'll be as accepting of Frankengregor as the rest of the Lannisters are, so I would be very surprised if he makes it back to Kings Landing.

Funny, I dind't actually consider that he might die. I guess I sort of assumed that he and Brienne will fight themselves out of it, or zombiecat will have a change of heart, or some shit. If he DOES die, I think (and really hope) that we get to watch it happen, not just hear about it.




EDIT:

Apparently there has already been at least one reading of TWoW.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/forum/58-the-winds-of-winter/

They already got a section for TWoW spoilers. O_o And this seemed to have happened a few months ago.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57570-twow-spoilers-arianne-ii-part-2/

This thread pretty much has all the info in the OP. Don't recall seeing anyone mention any of it.
WeeEEeeEEEeeEEEeeeEEee!!
bigjenk
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1543 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-11 15:20:39
September 11 2011 15:15 GMT
#719
On September 09 2011 10:18 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 10:13 Manifesto7 wrote:
Wheel of Time was good when I was in high school and the books were still coming out, but this is before I read Martin. Now if I try to go back and read the books, they... didn't age well for me. In the middle of the series Jordan basically gets lost in his own world. It is worth reading the first 6 in my opinion and maybe by then you will be sold on the rest. I might give them another go once the whole thing is finished.


To me it seems GRRM is starting to suffer from this based on the complaints and reviews. I've frequented a couple writing forums and the complaints are eerily similar regarding the later series from both authors.

But I really can't think of any series to recommend that is so brutal to its characters and yet is still a compelling story. Its a very strange and seems singularly unique. Its far easier to be brutal on your characters and simply have a story that people hate.


Seeing as how Jordan is grrm's biggest source of inspiration for writing style this is spot on. Wheel of time is definitely great if you enjoy the depth and foreshadowing of grrm's series, and if you start it now you may catch up just in time for the last book although with only one read through you will miss so much, drawing a blank if you are looking for something based on the brutal look at middle ages culture in a fantasy setting.

So supposedly 2 more books in the series but that reminds me of wot supposedly ending on book 9, I say their will end up being 4 more sofai books before it is all wrapped up and a decade at the soonest. I just cannot see him wrapping up the series in 2k pages of print at this point without doing a piss poor job at it and it seeming hasty.

Ignore my opinions I am bad
Stijx
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States804 Posts
September 11 2011 15:38 GMT
#720
Everyone who I see commenting on the books, seems to focus on the idea of "Who is getting to the Iron Throne" or who survives etc etc... In my opinion, and this comes from the fact that he kills people indiscriminately of their role in the world, he isn't writing to any sort of finishing point. He is just writing the tale of a world that he dreamt up. With that idea, the story honestly could go in any direction. For all we know the Others could destroy all of Westoros.
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