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On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite.
wat
Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank?
Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of.
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On August 06 2014 02:33 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. Palestinians in the West Bank have not hit anyone in a while and nobody was talking to them, even before this latest round of violence in Gaza.
I think they might be a little pre-occupied right now with the whole Gaza thing. Its an issue that should be addressed, but wanting the conflict to resolve before you work with people who formed a "unity government" isn't that crazy.
On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of.
I was more pointing out(though I did it a bit poorly) that the government is likely going to resolve the whole massive military action before they deal with the nitty, gritty stuff.
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On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of.
Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent.
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Why would Palestine even settle down?
Israel have been taking their land ever since Israel was created.
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On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite.
You realise Israel probably kills more civilians in the West Bank area than Hamas during peace time. And construct illegal settlements. If they stopped doing that, then could they complain about Gaza rockets.
Israel tried everything to prevent the Palestine unity government from functioning. In the end they decided to stage another Gaza massacre and while they draw light condemnations for targeting civilians, the "Hamas terrorists" ultimately steal the spotlight in the media. On the longterm this is good for them, because they can just keep refusing to negotiate with a united Palestinian delegation.
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On August 06 2014 02:39 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of. Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent.
You realise the two areas are geographically cut off from each other? Officials are not allowed to travel from one to the other, they are not even allowed to print the same newspapers etc.
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On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process.
Step 1 would be to tell them they should stop their aggression.
Step X would be to make it impossible for Terrorists to participate in elections.
Some suggestions from the top of my head. Lots of countries have managed to deal with their Terror problems or to at least keep them at a minimum. Palestine is not one of them.
Qassam are a part of the Hamas, funded by them etc. You know what happens when in Austria a politician commits that he is a Nazi? He gets suspended from the party, even if it is a national far right winged one. And taken to the court. Gosh, he doesn't have to shoot a rocket at a jew so that this happens. That's how you deal with extremists in your own house.
Hell, we even start a political discussion on measures to take to prevent people from becoming like that for single cases of this.
It's ridiculous that one even has to start a discussion on that last sentence of yours. "Using any excuse". What else would be an excuse? "Hey, we are OK with everything that you do, for as long as you please don't shoot nuclear missiles at our towns, OK? That would be nice of you." THEY SHOOT FUCKING MISSILES TO KILL PEOPLE. Find me another country that will tolerate that their neighbour shoots missiles at them day-by-day and on that basis starts to give up territory out of good will. "Hey Mexico, you are right, here, take California back. Thanks for opening our eyes by attacking us! How nice of you!"
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On August 06 2014 03:15 Big J wrote:
Find me another country that will tolerate that their neighbour shoots missiles at them day-by-day and on that basis starts to give up territory out of good will. "Hey Mexico, you are right, here, take California back. Thanks for opening our eyes by attacking us! How nice of you!"
Find me another country where the population is forced to live like Gazans.
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On August 06 2014 02:39 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of. Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent.
Osama bin Laden used the argument of collective punishment when he attacked the World Trade Center. He claimed that by electing our government we were all responsible and therefore all legitimate targets.
Sounds to me like what Israel is doing.
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On August 06 2014 03:15 Big J wrote:
It's ridiculous that one even has to start a discussion on that last sentence of yours. "Using any excuse". What else would be an excuse? "Hey, we are OK with everything that you do, for as long as you please don't shoot nuclear missiles at our towns, OK? That would be nice of you." THEY SHOOT FUCKING MISSILES TO KILL PEOPLE. Find me another country that will tolerate that their neighbour shoots missiles at them day-by-day and on that basis starts to give up territory out of good will. "Hey Mexico, you are right, here, take California back. Thanks for opening our eyes by attacking us! How nice of you!"
Find me a country where people live like prisoners.
I like how you said "give back".
This whole dont shoot us debate is pointless, as people mentioned very many times, the settlements and occupations have increased non stop. Palestinians die weekly in supposed peace time. Just no one hears about it.
These arent morons firing rockets just because, that do effectively nothing.
This is behaviour representative of people so desperate and driven to the edge that they have nothing left else to try because sitting around and going the normal route hasnt helped and neither has the world
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On August 06 2014 02:45 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of. Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent. You realise the two areas are geographically cut off from each other? Officials are not allowed to travel from one to the other, they are not even allowed to print the same newspapers etc.
The question asked wasn't whether Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should be responsible for the actions of Hamas in Gaza.
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On August 06 2014 03:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:45 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 06 2014 02:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of. Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent. You realise the two areas are geographically cut off from each other? Officials are not allowed to travel from one to the other, they are not even allowed to print the same newspapers etc. The question asked wasn't whether Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should be responsible for the actions of Hamas in Gaza.
Yes collective punishment is the answer. Everytime the establishment in power does something bad to the world its everyones fault.
Thats exactly it. Way to dehumanize bro
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On August 06 2014 03:25 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:15 Big J wrote:
Find me another country that will tolerate that their neighbour shoots missiles at them day-by-day and on that basis starts to give up territory out of good will. "Hey Mexico, you are right, here, take California back. Thanks for opening our eyes by attacking us! How nice of you!" Find me another country where the population is forced to live like Gazans.
But the reason that Israel enforces the blockade is that they are concerned of attacks and violence. Re-forcing those beliefs is not helping the people in Gaza's case. You are only providing further fuel to the argument that the right wing of Israel are making. It just feeds the fire.
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On August 06 2014 03:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:25 DinoMight wrote:On August 06 2014 03:15 Big J wrote:
Find me another country that will tolerate that their neighbour shoots missiles at them day-by-day and on that basis starts to give up territory out of good will. "Hey Mexico, you are right, here, take California back. Thanks for opening our eyes by attacking us! How nice of you!" Find me another country where the population is forced to live like Gazans. But the reason that Israel enforces the blockade is that they are concerned of attacks and violence. Re-forcing those beliefs is not helping the people in Gaza's case. You are only providing further fuel to the argument that the right wing of Israel are making. It just feeds the fire.
The right wing of Israels argument wont change either way. Something has to snap every few years. Either way Israel gets its way, so who cares right ?
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On August 06 2014 03:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 02:45 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 06 2014 02:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of. Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent. You realise the two areas are geographically cut off from each other? Officials are not allowed to travel from one to the other, they are not even allowed to print the same newspapers etc. The question asked wasn't whether Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should be responsible for the actions of Hamas in Gaza.
It was, actually. I was saying that Palestinians in the West Bank have been peaceful for a while and nothing has been done about the settlements there under the pretext that Israel is "busy" dealing with Hamas.
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On August 06 2014 03:32 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:31 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 03:25 DinoMight wrote:On August 06 2014 03:15 Big J wrote:
Find me another country that will tolerate that their neighbour shoots missiles at them day-by-day and on that basis starts to give up territory out of good will. "Hey Mexico, you are right, here, take California back. Thanks for opening our eyes by attacking us! How nice of you!" Find me another country where the population is forced to live like Gazans. But the reason that Israel enforces the blockade is that they are concerned of attacks and violence. Re-forcing those beliefs is not helping the people in Gaza's case. You are only providing further fuel to the argument that the right wing of Israel are making. It just feeds the fire. The right wing of Israels argument wont change either way. Something has to snap every few years. Either way Israel gets its way, so who cares right ?
Well if nothing is going to change and violence isn't going to do anything either, why launch the rockets in the first place? You are just going to get a lot of people killed and accomplish nothing.
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On August 06 2014 03:32 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:29 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:45 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 06 2014 02:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of. Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent. You realise the two areas are geographically cut off from each other? Officials are not allowed to travel from one to the other, they are not even allowed to print the same newspapers etc. The question asked wasn't whether Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should be responsible for the actions of Hamas in Gaza. It was, actually. I was saying that Palestinians in the West Bank have been peaceful for a while and nothing has been done about the settlements there under the pretext that Israel is "busy" dealing with Hamas.
No, go read the question that I put in bold. And it wasn't your statement that I highlighted.
Regardless, the point that I'm making is that Israel shouldn't bother negotiating with the Palestinians for peace if the Palestinians cannot control Hamas. In that way, the Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas.
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On August 06 2014 03:29 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:15 Big J wrote:
It's ridiculous that one even has to start a discussion on that last sentence of yours. "Using any excuse". What else would be an excuse? "Hey, we are OK with everything that you do, for as long as you please don't shoot nuclear missiles at our towns, OK? That would be nice of you." THEY SHOOT FUCKING MISSILES TO KILL PEOPLE. Find me another country that will tolerate that their neighbour shoots missiles at them day-by-day and on that basis starts to give up territory out of good will. "Hey Mexico, you are right, here, take California back. Thanks for opening our eyes by attacking us! How nice of you!" Find me a country where people live like prisoners. I like how you said "give back". This whole dont shoot us debate is pointless, as people mentioned very many times, the settlements and occupations have increased non stop. Palestinians die weekly in supposed peace time. Just no one hears about it. These arent morons firing rockets just because, that do effectively nothing. This is behaviour representative of people so desperate and driven to the edge that they have nothing left else to try because sitting around and going the normal route hasnt helped and neither has the world
I'm saying give back because not once will you hear me taking blame off of Israel. Not once will I say that bombing half of Gaza into the ground is the right way.
But sadly it seems like these kinds of anti-violence arguments seem to be only OK if you are against Israel. When it is Palestine, suddenly we have to make distinctions between West Bank and Gaza, Hamas (or even Quassam) and the rest. And even then "they are not morons", and "it's OK, it's out of desperation".
And when someone suggests a non-violent way, then there are immidiatly some "I can predict that this won't work"-guys around. Well, guess what. The violent way doesn't work either. It just makes Israel retaliate in a disproportional way.
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On August 06 2014 03:37 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:32 DinoMight wrote:On August 06 2014 03:29 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:45 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 06 2014 02:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of. Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent. You realise the two areas are geographically cut off from each other? Officials are not allowed to travel from one to the other, they are not even allowed to print the same newspapers etc. The question asked wasn't whether Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should be responsible for the actions of Hamas in Gaza. It was, actually. I was saying that Palestinians in the West Bank have been peaceful for a while and nothing has been done about the settlements there under the pretext that Israel is "busy" dealing with Hamas. No, go read the question that I put in bold. And it wasn't your statement that I highlighted. Regardless, the point that I'm making is that Israel shouldn't bother negotiating with the Palestinians for peace if the Palestinians cannot control Hamas. In that way, the Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas.
If Israel can negotiate a deal with the other Palestinians that will get Hamas militants to put their guns down... shouldn't they try?
"We don't negotiate with terrorists" is a line that's often quoted in movies and the media, but in practice the United States and other countries frequently negotiate with terrorists.
Why does Israel refuse to negotiate with ANY coalition government that includes Hamas? After all wouldn't it make the most sense to talk to the people you're fighting with?
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On August 06 2014 03:37 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2014 03:32 DinoMight wrote:On August 06 2014 03:29 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:45 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 06 2014 02:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 06 2014 02:37 Jormundr wrote:On August 06 2014 02:25 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On August 05 2014 19:04 Big J wrote:On August 05 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:
I have to disagree with this Ghandi theory that if Palestinians put down their weapons Israel will all of a sudden give them everything they want. It's simplistic and absurd. The world will not notice peaceful Palestinian protest at all.
In fact, there is no better proof of this than EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW.
What do we hear about? Hamas. Fighting, bombing, civilian deaths. But when the people of the West Bank sit quietly and do as they're told what happens? Nothing.
When was the last time you heard about the West Bank push for full legal rights / an independent state?
The problem is that Israel has learned to play both sides of the conflict:
When there is violence, they use it as an excuse to stall demands and improve living conditions, therefore exacerbating hate towards them.
When there is peace, no mainstream news outlet covers the region, and Israel is free to continue oppressing the Plaestinians as it sees fit. They do nothing for so long that someone eventually gets killed or a rocket is fired and then they go on an offensive.
This happens every 2-3 years for a month or so. You are deliberately mixing up civil protest and "doing nothing". Ghandi didn't do nothing. And noone in the West gives a fuck about the West Bank on its own. Either the whole country abandons violence, or their words aren't worth anything. And if you think it's unfair that the whole country "is held hostage by Terrorists", then said nation should do something about those Terrorists, instead of giving them offical powers. What do you suggest that the millions of people living peacefully in the West Bank do about a few thousand armed Hamas terrorists in Gaza? Keep in mind that the 42.9% of Gazans who voted for Hamas did not elect the Qassam brigade into power. Most Gazans oppose Hamas. The fact that Israel won't act on the settlements in the West Bank until Hamas stops shooting rockets in Gaza is just an indication that they're using any possible excuse to stall the reform process. I generally ask people to stop trying to hit me before I will talk with them. Its only polite. wat Are you suggesting a collective culpability for palestinians I.E. Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should bear responsibility for the actions of Hamas in the West Bank? Because collective guilt is a really dumb argument to make. It can be used to justify rocket attacks on Israel, which I don't think you're in favor of. Absolutely yes. As long as the Palestinians are independently governed, they are responsible for getting their house in order. If they can't do it, then they probably shouldn't be independent. You realise the two areas are geographically cut off from each other? Officials are not allowed to travel from one to the other, they are not even allowed to print the same newspapers etc. The question asked wasn't whether Palestinian civilians in the West Bank should be responsible for the actions of Hamas in Gaza. It was, actually. I was saying that Palestinians in the West Bank have been peaceful for a while and nothing has been done about the settlements there under the pretext that Israel is "busy" dealing with Hamas. No, go read the question that I put in bold. And it wasn't your statement that I highlighted. Regardless, the point that I'm making is that Israel shouldn't bother negotiating with the Palestinians for peace if the Palestinians cannot control Hamas. In that way, the Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas.
During relative peacetime, Israel killed 179 civilians to Palestinian's 32. Apparently by your logic Gazans should have no reason to negotiate with Israel because it is 5x more terrorist than Hamas.
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EPT
