|
On October 03 2013 23:48 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 23:26 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 23:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 03 2013 23:20 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 23:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 03 2013 23:06 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 23:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 03 2013 22:59 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 22:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 03 2013 22:41 hypercube wrote:
[quote]
If we start to think of large segments of society as 'plebs', people we have nothing in common with we're fucked.
The problem with embracing self serving corruption is that it stops you from forming wide alliances. How are you going to stand up against well organized, well connected and wealthy interest groups if you are unwilling to consider anyone else's interest but your own? Thing is, if you put up his way then you just stop believing in democracy at all. This ultra-liberal thought has an extraordinarily restricted and individualistic notion of interest. It sees your interest as how much money you get and that's basically it. As if one could not support unemployment benefit without being unemployed, just because he prefers living in a society that gives a safety net to people who lose their job, as if one could not care for the education of the children of his country even if he has no children, etc etc etc... No, it's a bit more than that. Someone who purely believes in personal self-interest stops believing in the very idea of society. If all that matters is what you personally get out of something, then of course the other members of your society don't matter at all outside of what they can directly provide to you. The closest to community that such a person can achieve is rank tribalism. Looking back at classical literature, I would have thought we'd moved past this mindset thousands of years ago. I think we can agree that our regretted Margaret Tatcher had medieval ideas then  No, no, not at all. There were plenty of community-oriented ideas in those times. The Catholic Church in particular supported the idea of brotherhood between... well, between Catholic Christians, but at least it was supporting a sort of commonality between nations, even if it was so they could all paint crosses on their armor and go kill Muslims. Yes but the idea that it's the society's duty to provide the most vulnerable with enough not to starve, and not the free willing charity of some religious organization is very recent. Tatcher's idea was that the poor can fuck themselves unless someone is willing to help them. That's medieval. As is Ron Paul, for example, saying that the education and the healthcare of the poor should be taken in charge by charities and churches and not by the State. I haven't figured out if he was serious. Well, then, you may as well have called her thinking Renaissance-era. The idea of government caring for the poor is industrial or modern-era. You really like exactitude yeah? I'm not sure that describing someone's ideas as "Renaissance mindset" is as efficient as "medieval mindset" to underline how archaic they are. Which was my point. Heh, I suppose. But really, if you want to underline how archaic those sorts of anti-welfare mindsets are, just point to the Roman Empire. They had welfare nearly two thousand years ago. The capital point is that a misunderstanding of historical institutions merely reinforces the prejudices of the present. In the manorial Middle Ages, the majority of peasants as well as artisans were exposed to a greater extent of corporate identity and collective life than today, with their attendant benefits and duties. That exchange of benefits and duties though was generally not towards the state, and were of a more personal than a bureaucratic nature. Of the two, between modern statism or medieval forms of manorialism, it is difficult to discern which is hated more by classical liberals. Tocqueville foresaw that in the democratic ages, people would more willing to accept the direct tutelary power of a singular supreme authority, under which all men are set in equal standing, rather than a more moderate submission to the intermediary hierarchies interpoised between the state and the individual. The authoritarian principle is innate to democratic desires, providing the authority remains bureaucratic rather than personal. We have now acceded to such traditions in democratic life, that most people cannot even imagine life under any other arrangement.
My original post:
I think we can agree that our regretted Margaret Tatcher had medieval ideas then
If based on that joke, you get to the conclusion that I need a savant (or pedantic?) lecture to compensate my lack of knowledge about medieval institutions, I dare saying that you have a problem, Moltke.
|
On October 04 2013 02:03 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 22:55 dUTtrOACh wrote:On October 03 2013 22:46 Acritter wrote:On October 03 2013 22:45 dUTtrOACh wrote:
There's a lot of stuff in Article 1 on the powers and responsibilities of congress, too.
I don't think it requires a Constitutional amendment to enact "Obamacare" (which is a stupid name, by the way - I wish they'd stop using it). All it takes right now, is a budget to be approved. It has been subjected to everything else and passed. The Republicans (not all of them) are just being dicks, and their ability to stonewall government to this extent is a joke. Call it ACA. That's its name. Only, none of the media coverage calls it the ACA, probably because acronyms are so ambiguous. I wish the media would stop calling it 'Obamacare'. It brings up a lot of partisan discussion that really has very little place in what should be a more neutral topic: Healthcare for everyone. But, it's not healthcare for everyone. It's insurance for everyone. There's a major difference, and the government is trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Those words are not synonymous.
It's not insurance for everyone, lol.
|
On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result.
You don't understand the Republican position:
We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table?
![[image loading]](http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1472943.1380653441!/img/httpImage/image.jpg-large_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/cantor.jpg-large)
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
saying modern usage of historic terms reflect contemporary concerns is really a duh point. and it's ok as long as people understand the aspect of history being used.
|
On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table?
Everybody understands Republican position. "We have the power to sabotage the country and we don't like the bill you were elected to pass so if you don't negotiate (and demolish the said bill), we shutdown the whole government".
Answer: Go fuck yourself
Reaction: whine whine whine, they don't want to negotiate!!
|
On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table?
You do realize that photo was completely staged correct?
And moderate Republicans do but then cow-tow to the Tea Party far right. Guess what, the ACA is LAW now. There is no COMPROMISING. It passed through the entire legislative process and is no longer a bill.
It's amazing to find what seem like semi-intelligent human beings completely brainwashed into stooges like you seem to have been through the polarizing two party system, but you are factually incorrect about all of your points.
|
On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table?
Except that's not a full and completely truthful description of the position. House Republicans are trying to get negotiation to overturn policy via illegitimate means when they've failed to get their goal through legitimate means 35+ times.
It's like a parent telling thier child to go to sleep, but the kid refuses to sleep and says "I want to stay up late. You guys want peace and quiet. Why are you refusing to let me stay up late?"
There are ways to overturn laws. This is not one of them. If this was, then every time either political party comes across a law they don't like the government will shut down. Would you support a shutdown due to Democrats if the contentious issue was the Hyde amendment?
|
On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table? + Show Spoiler +
I dont want to compromise. The republicans lost this fight when the bill passed.
They lost, they get nothing.
Now they throw a hissy fit last ditch effort.
|
On October 04 2013 06:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table? Everybody understands Republican position. "We have the power to sabotage the country and we don't like the bill you were elected to pass so if you don't negotiate (and demolish the said bill), we shutdown the whole government". Answer: Go fuck yourself Reaction: whine whine whine, they don't want to negotiate!!
1. Don't say "go fuck yourself". Let's keep this debate civil.
2. Obamacare is opposed by the majority of Americans and has always been. They were not elected to pass Obamacare.
3. Republicans didn't say they would only negotiate a complete removal of the bill. They moved down to a one-year delay.
4. The whole government is not shut down.
|
On October 04 2013 06:28 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table? Except that's not a full and completely truthful description of the position. House Republicans are trying to get negotiation to overturn policy via illegitimate means
This is completely legal and legitimate.
|
On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table?
Republicans have opposed 18 opportunities to go to conference on the federal budget (every single time it was proposed throughout the year, before the hour or so before the shutdown happened)
http://www.businessinsider.com/government-shutdown-house-to-appoint-conference-committees-2013-9#ixzz2ghI9Ds8L
|
On October 04 2013 06:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 06:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table? Everybody understands Republican position. "We have the power to sabotage the country and we don't like the bill you were elected to pass so if you don't negotiate (and demolish the said bill), we shutdown the whole government". Answer: Go fuck yourself Reaction: whine whine whine, they don't want to negotiate!! 1. Don't say "go fuck yourself". Let's keep this debate civil. 2. Obamacare is opposed by the majority of Americans and has always been. They were not elected to pass Obamacare. 3. Republicans didn't say they would only negotiate a complete removal of the bill. They moved down to a one-year delay. 4. The whole government is not shut down.
2) You keep saying this, and yet somehow - Obama is president, Democrats have a majority in the Senate, and the approval rating for the GOP is dropping the longer they try this shutdown bs.
3) If Obama bends AT ALL to this pressure, the office of president and his authority as the democratically elected leader of this country is suspect for the rest of eternity. Minorities of a majority of half of congress can then just bs around and hold the government hostage to get whatever they want, even though they lost in all actual democratic functions of countermanding what they didn't like.
4) Oh boy, only 800,000 people are out of work, just a minor issue.
|
a "one year delay" serves literally no purpose other then to bide time for the GOP to kill the bill later, when the political climate might be more favorable to them.
What do you think is accomplished by delaying the bill for a year that is worth this government shutdown? I cant see any value.
|
On October 04 2013 06:40 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 06:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 04 2013 06:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table? Everybody understands Republican position. "We have the power to sabotage the country and we don't like the bill you were elected to pass so if you don't negotiate (and demolish the said bill), we shutdown the whole government". Answer: Go fuck yourself Reaction: whine whine whine, they don't want to negotiate!! 1. Don't say "go fuck yourself". Let's keep this debate civil. 2. Obamacare is opposed by the majority of Americans and has always been. They were not elected to pass Obamacare. 3. Republicans didn't say they would only negotiate a complete removal of the bill. They moved down to a one-year delay. 4. The whole government is not shut down. 2) You keep saying this, and yet somehow - Obama is president, Democrats have a majority in the Senate, and the approval rating for the GOP is dropping the longer they try this shutdown bs. 3) If Obama bends AT ALL to this pressure, the office of president and his authority as the democratically elected leader of this country is suspect for the rest of eternity. Minorities of a majority of half of congress can then just bs around and hold the government hostage to get whatever they want, even though they lost in all actual democratic functions of countermanding what they didn't like. 4) Oh boy, only 800,000 people are out of work, just a minor issue.
Rush said most Americans dint support ACA 45 times today in less than 15 minutes it has to be true! All those landslide popular vote wins for the democrats don't mean anything.
|
lol @ superfamily not addressing the point that the tactic of threatening government shutdown to force policy change at will shouldn't be used. It's the point people are making to you, and you really should address it before arguing that Dems should compromise on Obamacare. Evading the point just makes it seem like you don't have a good response to it. So please answer this: should parties be able to use govt shutdown as a bargaining chip to change any policy they choose, or should there be limits to when parties can do this?
|
On October 04 2013 06:40 GTPGlitch wrote:
4) Oh boy, only 800,000 people are out of work, just a minor issue.
actually that's just a small part of the damage done
National Parks, zoos, tourist attractions closed means quite some incomeloss for those and all those around (guesthouses, restaurants, everyone making his money from tourists)
Another user here pointed at the damage done at the NASA, pushing back their missions by 2 years, possibly rendering their multibillion dollar mars rover (and not just for the time of the shutdown but also later, since the communicationlines wont get fixed until in 2 years)
|
3. Republicans didn't say they would only negotiate a complete removal of the bill. They moved down to a one-year delay.
And if you delay it by 1 year long enough, you guys can stop it at some point in the future because it never was popular enough to get into effect or some similar crappy reason.
Republicans should stop being childish and just accept their defeat. If you can't accept that your democratically elected government passed a bill even though you tried stopping it countless times and look for any reason to abolish it still, maybe democracy isn't the right thing for you.
|
On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table?
Hey look, they were right... Obamacare DID create a Death Panel! (BTW, where's Boehner?)
|
On October 04 2013 06:45 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 06:40 GTPGlitch wrote:On October 04 2013 06:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 04 2013 06:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 04 2013 06:21 sc2superfan101 wrote:On October 04 2013 05:02 aristarchus wrote:On October 04 2013 04:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 04 2013 04:36 CannonsNCarriers wrote:The pre 1995 shutdowns were radically different than the ones we have now. Please stop lying about them. We know the difference. Here is Stan Collender's explanation: "You haven't heard much about them [pre-1995 shutdowns] for several reasons: 1. Most of these lapses were short or happened over a weekend. They were barely noticed at the time and are not memorable now. 2. The lapses were not typically government-wide. Instead, they only happened to one or two agencies or departments. 3. In many ways most important, until Carter Attorney General Benjamin Civiletti issued memorandums in 1980 and 1981 that set up new rules and standards, agencies and departments that suffered an appropriations lapse were allowed to continue to operate as if there was no lapse at all." http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2773/shutdown-different-most-others 1. This lapse is currently short. Its been a couple days. Whine about the end of the world when this passes the historical norm. 2-3. I mentioned seven different shut downs under Reagan. Guess what decade he was president in? Golly gee, the rules were already in effect. Functionally they were the same shut downs as we have now, the only distinction is that they were 'brief'...which isnt a distinction, because thus far this hasnt been long. You're right that a 2-day shutdown is very minor, but the point isn't just what has already happened - it's what is being threatened. The House Republicans aren't just saying they'll shut the government down for 2 days. They're saying they'll shut it down perpetually unless unrelated policy concessions are made. Of course what they're threatening is horrible - that's exactly the point. If it wasn't horrible, it wouldn't be a very big threat. I really don't understand this conservative attempt to make it seem like it's no big deal. If it's no big deal, they're certainly not going to get their way as a result. You don't understand the Republican position: We've passed multiple bills to fund the government. We want to fund the government. Obama refuses to compromise on Obamacare. The American people want compromise and negotiation, so why are Democrats unwilling to even come to the table? Everybody understands Republican position. "We have the power to sabotage the country and we don't like the bill you were elected to pass so if you don't negotiate (and demolish the said bill), we shutdown the whole government". Answer: Go fuck yourself Reaction: whine whine whine, they don't want to negotiate!! 1. Don't say "go fuck yourself". Let's keep this debate civil. 2. Obamacare is opposed by the majority of Americans and has always been. They were not elected to pass Obamacare. 3. Republicans didn't say they would only negotiate a complete removal of the bill. They moved down to a one-year delay. 4. The whole government is not shut down. 2) You keep saying this, and yet somehow - Obama is president, Democrats have a majority in the Senate, and the approval rating for the GOP is dropping the longer they try this shutdown bs. 3) If Obama bends AT ALL to this pressure, the office of president and his authority as the democratically elected leader of this country is suspect for the rest of eternity. Minorities of a majority of half of congress can then just bs around and hold the government hostage to get whatever they want, even though they lost in all actual democratic functions of countermanding what they didn't like. 4) Oh boy, only 800,000 people are out of work, just a minor issue. Rush said most Americans dint support ACA 45 times today in less than 15 minutes it has to be true! All those landslide popular vote wins for the democrats don't mean anything.
![[image loading]](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/04/30/us/politics/fivethirtyeight-0501-aca_fav/fivethirtyeight-0501-aca_fav-blog480.png)
Most Americans don't like the ACA but don't support the defunding gambit either. Link, Link
|
Guys, jonny and superfan have it right. This is completely legitimate and also the most effective method of congressional negotions. None of the other 334 days of the year matter, they hold session just to keep up appearances. Thats why october is known as government shutdown month among federal employees, who have collectively attained alternate employment under the obvious assumption that our republican saviours were going to kick 800,000 people out of their jobs in order to save people from being kicked out of their jobs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
