On April 16 2023 03:16 sharkie wrote: It just says both players are nervous as hell and make lots of mistakes
I'd 100% rather mistakes were made than watching weeks of draws.
But then whats special about this tournament? You can watch any sub-2.3k games to see "exciting" games
There is absolutely nothing special about watching 14 draws, regardless of who the people are that are drawing.
Its an issue with chess in the stockfish age, where so many of the common positions are solved for draws.
These guys are not 2.3k, they are amazing players, players who qualified for this fair and square against the entire world. Personally I think the reason we are getting more decisive games is because these guys are both the kind of players who will take a 0.1 deficit to imbalance the position and create attacking chances. It doesn't necessarily mean alot of mistakes are being made.
On April 16 2023 03:16 sharkie wrote: It just says both players are nervous as hell and make lots of mistakes
I'd 100% rather mistakes were made than watching weeks of draws.
But then whats special about this tournament? You can watch any sub-2.3k games to see "exciting" games
There is absolutely nothing special about watching 14 draws, regardless of who the people are that are drawing.
Its an issue with chess in the stockfish age, where so many of the common positions are solved for draws.
These guys are not 2.3k, they are amazing players, players who qualified for this fair and square against the entire world. Personally I think the reason we are getting more decisive games is because these guys are both the kind of players who will take a 0.1 deficit to imbalance the position and create attacking chances. It doesn't necessarily mean alot of mistakes are being made.
That's arguing from hindsight. Draws between top players are draws because fewer mistakes are being made. If Liren had successfully defended the last game, you'd call it a boring draw, even though it would change nothing about the fragility and asymmetry of the position they played.
They are not 2.3k of course, but it's also obvious they're quite a bit behind Magnus in terms of strength. It's not their fault in any way that he's not playing, they're doing their best - but it feels like when Serena Williams' age made her domination end.
When every next Grand Slam was won by another player (often their first GS tourney win), or at least it felt so, and nobody could keep their form long enough to win (or at least get into finals of) the next GS tourney. There were 10 different winners in 13 GS after the last Serena win.
Was it more exciting than almost inevitable Serena win (or at least finals)? Probably. Did it feel like the overall level of play at the top tanked quite a bit and there's no one nearly as strong as Serena was? Many including me felt that way.
I'm only cm (2218 elo) but I think the level of play is very high. The reason it's becoming so many decisive games is because the white repertoires are extremly hard to prepare against and very deadly. Usualy when magnus played these world championship games the preparation from both sides wasn't as good as this match is. Nepo blundered one game and got punished to the maximum and Nepo is known to blunder by playing to quickly it's nothing new.
Maybe because computers have gotten better these last years, I don't know, this is my feeling anyway but I could be wrong.
Werent most matches in the WC draws because preparation was too good? Thats what all the GMs were saying at least. If you are super prepared you will draw a game
On April 16 2023 05:09 sharkie wrote: Werent most matches in the WC draws because preparation was too good? Thats what all the GMs were saying at least. If you are super prepared you will draw a game
Yeah the preparation was very good obviously it was also predictable. Technically the draws weren't only about the preparation, I remember carlsen had like 3-4 winning games he failed to convert against Karjakin for example, so it was also poor conversion rate aswell in some matches.
The difference is here you see extremly early deviances that are practically impossible to prepare no matter if you have 100 years to prepare for the match and yet they lead to very uncomfortable positions for the opposing side, i've watched all world championship matches live since anand versus topalov and I haven't seen anything like this before at least.
On April 16 2023 05:09 sharkie wrote: Werent most matches in the WC draws because preparation was too good? Thats what all the GMs were saying at least. If you are super prepared you will draw a game
Yeah the preparation was very good obviously it was also predictable. Technically the draws weren't only about the preparation, I remember carlsen had like 3-4 winning games he failed to convert against Karjakin for example, so it was also poor conversion rate aswell in some matches.
The difference is here you see extremly early deviances that are practically impossible to prepare no matter if you have 100 years to prepare for the match and yet they lead to very uncomfortable positions for the opposing side, i've watched all world championship matches live since anand versus topalov and I haven't seen anything like this before at least.
Isn't that also a question of taking risks? You need some serious balls to bring out a brand new and sharp line at a world Championship with maximum time to both play and prepare. Deviances are often just... worse, and work better with less time on the clock. Magnus is known for his stamina too, which is a win-condition.
It could also be better computers, ofc, but if it is that or just bolder but worse players and less prep is not easy to tell.
On April 16 2023 05:09 sharkie wrote: Werent most matches in the WC draws because preparation was too good? Thats what all the GMs were saying at least. If you are super prepared you will draw a game
Yeah the preparation was very good obviously it was also predictable. Technically the draws weren't only about the preparation, I remember carlsen had like 3-4 winning games he failed to convert against Karjakin for example, so it was also poor conversion rate aswell in some matches.
The difference is here you see extremly early deviances that are practically impossible to prepare no matter if you have 100 years to prepare for the match and yet they lead to very uncomfortable positions for the opposing side, i've watched all world championship matches live since anand versus topalov and I haven't seen anything like this before at least.
Isn't that also a question of taking risks? You need some serious balls to bring out a brand new and sharp line at a world Championship with maximum time to both play and prepare. Deviances are often just... worse, and work better with less time on the clock. Magnus is known for his stamina too, which is a win-condition.
It could also be better computers, ofc, but if it is that or just bolder but worse players and less prep is not easy to tell.
Not really true, Nepo and Ding took zero risk in all their white games so far, Ding lost not because of opening with white. Giri also commented on if this is gonna be the how people play white in the future it's gonna be so hard to play black, nothing is suboptimal about their openings either, they're not playing kings gambit, just a small twist of unexplored lines in mainline openings
also the subtle difference is that they go out of book so fast, that's really the difference, and it makes sense if you can get out of book fast then the opponents prep is less useful, going out of book on move 20+ versus move 10 is really the difference this match
Such a rollercoaster of a match, haha.. wow, 4/6 decisive games is so extremely refreshing considering last couple of WCC matches. When was the last time 3 games of WCC in a row ended up being decisive, btw?
Pretty good games, on top of that. Exciting second half of the match ahead!
4 decisive games in a row in a WCC match last happened in 1986 (Kasparov vs Karpov) and 5/7 decisive games last time happened in 1972 (Spassky vs Fischer) where Fischer also decided to forfeit game 2 (so it barely counts, honestly)..
What a silly way to lose a game. Just play some safe waiting moves until move 40.
Ding is mentally shaky, Nepo still playing bad moves quickly.
Why are there so many decisive games? Ding, candid as ever, says it best: "Because we are not as professional as Magnus".
Magnus' game is 'boring' because he can easily neutralise offbeat openings and unexpected sidelines with his superior intuition, and willing to drag a draw-ish position to end-game because his sheer ability to squeeze water out of stone.
I understand that the current World Championship is great entertainment for the casual viewers, and good for chess in the long term. But the level of quality is just not as high with Magnus around.
Game 7 came very close to killing my interest in the tournament. I don't plan to follow so closely as before, unless the players really improve their mental sharpness and play concrete games (even if it results to more draws). I just don't see any point watching games played almost perfectly from move 1 to 30 only for one player to completely blunder after move 30. Just not my cup of tea of what top level chess should be.
I never saw Magnus' game as boring... Its just overwhelmingly better than any other players potential. The only thing "boring" about Magnus is that he doesnt lose. Also he is the one player who wants to bring more excitement to chess with changes but unfortunately its a very conservative sport
On April 20 2023 14:19 RKC wrote: What a silly way to lose a game. Just play some safe waiting moves until move 40.
Ding is mentally shaky, Nepo still playing bad moves quickly.
Why are there so many decisive games? Ding, candid as ever, says it best: "Because we are not as professional as Magnus".
Magnus' game is 'boring' because he can easily neutralise offbeat openings and unexpected sidelines with his superior intuition, and willing to drag a draw-ish position to end-game because his sheer ability to squeeze water out of stone.
I understand that the current World Championship is great entertainment for the casual viewers, and good for chess in the long term. But the level of quality is just not as high with Magnus around.
Game 7 came very close to killing my interest in the tournament. I don't plan to follow so closely as before, unless the players really improve their mental sharpness and play concrete games (even if it results to more draws). I just don't see any point watching games played almost perfectly from move 1 to 30 only for one player to completely blunder after move 30. Just not my cup of tea of what top level chess should be.
So you don't want to watch anymore because the players do not have nerves of steel (and not much experience at the WCC level) do not play the safest way possible and sometimes play sub-par moves under very heavy pressure.
That's.. A totally "reasonable" behaviour..
Your choice I guess.. i'm enjoying this match very much so far. Mistakes are and always were a part of the game on every level.
On April 20 2023 14:19 RKC wrote: What a silly way to lose a game. Just play some safe waiting moves until move 40.
Ding is mentally shaky, Nepo still playing bad moves quickly.
Why are there so many decisive games? Ding, candid as ever, says it best: "Because we are not as professional as Magnus".
Magnus' game is 'boring' because he can easily neutralise offbeat openings and unexpected sidelines with his superior intuition, and willing to drag a draw-ish position to end-game because his sheer ability to squeeze water out of stone.
I understand that the current World Championship is great entertainment for the casual viewers, and good for chess in the long term. But the level of quality is just not as high with Magnus around.
Game 7 came very close to killing my interest in the tournament. I don't plan to follow so closely as before, unless the players really improve their mental sharpness and play concrete games (even if it results to more draws). I just don't see any point watching games played almost perfectly from move 1 to 30 only for one player to completely blunder after move 30. Just not my cup of tea of what top level chess should be.
So you don't want to watch anymore because the players do not have nerves of steel (and not much experience at the WCC level) do not play the safest way possible and sometimes play sub-par moves under very heavy pressure.
That's.. A totally "reasonable" behaviour..
Your choice I guess.. i'm enjoying this match very much so far. Mistakes are and always were a part of the game on every level.
Yes, because the level of the Nepo-Ding games so far is not very different from top online rapid tournaments like Chessable Masters - which is understandable for top players to crack and blunder because of the shorter time format.
I just expect more from a classical format between the world's no 2 and 3 players. Right now, both players are trying to rely more on psychological tricks (Nepo playing quick to apply time pressure, Ding playing funky but sub-optimal opening lines) rather than actually playing solid chess. It's more a chess boxing slugfest rather than proper chess.
To quote from Fischer: "All I want to do, ever, is play chess. I don't believe in psychology. I believe in good moves. All that matters on the chessboard is good moves."
Of course, Fischer is only half right. Psychology does matter. Magnus plays good moves and has good psychology. But good moves should come first, psychology second. Both Nepo and Ding are letting their psychological tactics interfere with the basics of making good moves (which includes playing practical safe moves during time crunch).
But hey, it's all a question of taste. I get the same quality and adrenaline from watching Magnus v Hikaru rapid games. Why waste many more hours watching Nepo v Ding playing OTB despite higher stakes?
Ok, so we've learned: viewership rate drops if top players play perfectly. But it also drops if they blunder frequently. I guess the solution is to fix every game WWE style
Meanwhile I'm happy to see that the very best players make the same mistakes that I still sometimes/often make, like freezing up and looking for the perfect move despite insufficient time on the clock. They're humans, and that's why I enjoy watching their games. If I wanted something better, I'd only watch engines (which I also do, but for different reasons).
EPT
